Halion is now able to read giga files

[paynterr]

http://www.cubase.net/ (\"http://www.cubase.net/\")

Interesting... I wonder what the latency etc. is on Halion? I mean - OK - so it won\'t play the same number of voices simultaneously as perhaps gigastudio, but the fact that it is integrated into the vst environment.

Mmm... I suspect gigastudio will remain a stalwart of those doing what seems to be the case of most of the people on this forum, that being orchestral work where large, big, high-polyphony samples are required...

Maybe... anyone else had any thoughts.

Of course, the real power is in the sample libraries and as long as the developers of these libraries allow us to port across then I don\'t see a problem. Not as if there really needs to be a Nemesys vs the world debate?

Thoughts, thoughts, thoughts...

[cobra7]

Yes, i saw this a few days ago. I\'m wondering how the performance is on some of the Giga instruments, however. Since much of the power of GS is in that it streams the samples from the hard drive, thus eliminating the need to loop samples and allowing much larger sample sizes, how will HalION handle this. Is HalION RAM-based or disk-based? I would think that many Giga instruments would choke HalION if it is RAM-based, not to mention that you would need a huge amount of RAM to run some of the Giga instruments in it.

Any thoughts or information on this?

[gigagagga]

HALion poly is totally up to the computer I have Tibook 400 and I get about 20 voices and the thing starts choking!!!!

HALion sucks as far as Giga disks go and getting them into a mac... It won\'t even look at stuff like steinway B and Trachtman or Christian and Lane or Malmsjo or any one of a number of other disks. I have been keeping up with the HAlion forum at Cubase and the results seem to be very mixed

giga

[cobra7]

Yes, that\'s one thing that I was wondering about. How does HALion handle things like Gigasampler\'s dimensions any other features that are specific to Giga? Do these translate? For example, the Scarbee J-Slap Bass library has alot of complex velocity layering and other controller sample switching. How does this translate in HALion?

I\'m a Cubase user, and I am right now considering buying another machine to dedicate to Gigasampler separate from my Cubase machine. If HALion can boast that it translates Giga instruments reliably and maintains the programming characterisics of the instruments, then I might consider buying HALion to use as a VST plugin and not have to spend the money on another machine? Is this the way to go?

[Chadwick]

Hmmm, just read the manual for Halion V1.1

I still can\'t believe that the polyphony or latency will cut it.

[This message has been edited by Chadwick (edited 09-05-2001).]

[WTrachtman]

Well,at this point, I am probably the only piano sample producer who has programmed the same piano library in native format for both software applications, so I can offer some observations from my experience so far.

Yes, for a direct translation of a library, Halion will use more CPU than Gigastudio. Whether this is a problem for you depends on whether your computer was being limited by CPU or by disk I/O as far as your polyphony results go.

Over 2 months ago, I reprogrammed a 6-layer version of my Steinway-C piano samples for the first release of Halion.
In re-programming my Steinway-C piano in the native Halion format, I have found that better overall results may actually be achievable.
Specifically, Halion does not suffer from the velocity/volume compression/saturation, and the sample layer crossfade is compatible with equal-amplitude phase-coherent crossfade. What this means is that instead of using the Gigastudio lowpass filtering to reduce the impact of the abrupt velocity-switched layers, in Halion I can use the crossfade feature to get smoother transitions **without the CPU overhead that the filtering uses***. So, the final results with Halion can be equally good for a given CPU.

The first release of Halion did not include the dimension switching, but now that the version 1.1 includes this, I will be reprogramming my sample sets to include this. So, I\'ll soon have a 12 layer (6 pedal-up and 6 pedal-down) version for Halion. If I include the release triggered samples in the file, instead of as a supplemental layered instrument, this will make for an even larger number of dimensions. The fact that Halion uses individual WAV files, instead of the monster monolithic Gig file means that I am no longer limited by the 2GB (or 4GB) Windows file size barrier.

Halion still has its own problems and limitations, but things are not as simple as raw CPU load when you program an instrument specifically for each application.

Regards,
Warren Trachtman
http://www.wstco.com/pianosounds/ (\"http://www.wstco.com/pianosounds/\")

[paynterr]

Halion is disk based like GS... there is some talk of infringement of copyright about them using disk streaming... which in my mind is a bit like someone trying to patent the wheel.
I read a review in the UK Sound on SOund magazine recently that seemed to indicate that the performance wasn\'t as good on Halion as it was on GS in terms of number of sounds... I\'m just wondering whether there is a potential \'so-what?\' associated with that given the lack of available fx in gs?
I guess I\'ll just stick with GS for the time being and see what happens? The important thing is that this only promotes the sample library developers to continue producing the great samples they are producing knowing that they have a wider market now and potentially this may bring down some costs...

[TJ]

I\'ve been in a studio these past couple of days working with an engineer who uses Halion in cubase. I was very impressed with its seamless integration into the sequencer and love the way that FX are so easily added to each seperate channel. Hearing that it reads gig. format is a real bonus. I noticed however that it uses up far more in processing than the same number and size of voices would in GS which seems to indicate that it is a fair distance from being as economical.

It is very effective if you use cubase but I still prefer to have GS housed in a seperate computer for maximum effectiveness. The two are really very different from eachother.

Still, competition is never a bad thing!.

[Bruce A. Richardson]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TJ:
I noticed however that it uses up far more in processing than the same number and size of voices would in GS which seems to indicate that it is a fair distance from being as economical.

It is very effective if you use cubase but I still prefer to have GS housed in a seperate computer for maximum effectiveness. The two are really very different from eachother.

Still, competition is never a bad thing!. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, I think it\'s a good thing, too...it will shut some folks right up who seem to believe that GigaStudio level performance is possible in that environment.

Frankly, I\'d like to see GigaStudio support VST synthesizers as plugins. Now THAT would shut some people up, haha.

[paynterr]

What may now be an option is to buy halion in conjunction with gigastudio and use it to drive samples that maybe don\'t require a huge amount of polyphony (such as percussion) thus leveraging your investment in the gigasampler libs and also freeing up valuable polyphony on the dedicated machine... tis an idea. To be honest, the ideal solution would be for Halion to stream around 500 voices simulteneously and apply fx to them... then I\'m there and buying it http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif
Still: probably not *that* far off... the need for separate hardware is probably just a 2-3 year blip... once the number of simultaneous voices on a single box exceeds 300 or so... we should all be laughing... and THAT is only a doubling of hard-drive, memory, CPU speed... which is probably around a year away, not three...
I suspect that the cubase people will get the Halion synth up to scratch in next to no time... let\'s face it, they\'ve got nothing else to worry about in that the rest of the environment is already there for fx etc. Just need to get the Halion synth to up its spec.
Anyone know what the Halion polyphony is?

[Michiel Post]

Hi I was thrilled by the news that Halion now included gig-file support. Steinberg actually had to include it themselves as ChickenSys officially wanted to wait with a conversion update of TRANSLATOR. It was just logical for this to happen.
I downloaded the latest update, and I\'m very surprised. It actually works! Loading a Gig file in Halion gives comparable results as loading an Akai cd in the old Giga Akai S-convert utility.
As a soundware developer I also investigated Halion. And just as Warren did, I experimented with a Halion version of my libraries. I was surprised by the ease of programming and the flexibility of the program.
It behaves very buggy though, it crashes all the time. In fact the software reminded me of the situation 2 years ago when GS created such series of blue screens all the time.
In the light of a much larger userbase I believe that Halion will reach a lot of people that have hesitated to dive in the PC-based sampling so far (Not to mention all those Mac users that don\'t have a choice between GS and Halion, because GS never appeared for MAc). All in all good news for musicians!


Michiel

[paynterr]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WTrachtman:

Well,at this point, I am probably the only piano sample producer who has programmed the same piano library in native format for both software applications, so I can offer some observations from my experience so far.

Yes, for a direct translation of a library, Halion will use more CPU than Gigastudio. Whether this is a problem for you depends on whether your computer was being limited by CPU or by disk I/O as far as your polyphony results go.

Over 2 months ago, I reprogrammed a 6-layer version of my Steinway-C piano samples for the first release of Halion.
In re-programming my Steinway-C piano in the native Halion format, I have found that better overall results may actually be achievable.
Specifically, Halion does not suffer from the velocity/volume compression/saturation, and the sample layer crossfade is compatible with equal-amplitude phase-coherent crossfade. What this means is that instead of using the Gigastudio lowpass filtering to reduce the impact of the abrupt velocity-switched layers, in Halion I can use the crossfade feature to get smoother transitions **without the CPU overhead that the filtering uses***. So, the final results with Halion can be equally good for a given CPU.

The first release of Halion did not include the dimension switching, but now that the version 1.1 includes this, I will be reprogramming my sample sets to include this. So, I\'ll soon have a 12 layer (6 pedal-up and 6 pedal-down) version for Halion. If I include the release triggered samples in the file, instead of as a supplemental layered instrument, this will make for an even larger number of dimensions. The fact that Halion uses individual WAV files, instead of the monster monolithic Gig file means that I am no longer limited by the 2GB (or 4GB) Windows file size barrier.

Halion still has its own problems and limitations, but things are not as simple as raw CPU load when you program an instrument specifically for each application.

Regards,
Warren Trachtman
http://www.wstco.com/pianosounds/ (\"http://www.wstco.com/pianosounds/\")

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi there,
I wonder if you could elaborate on your experience please? What is the true difference in - say - polyphony - between the halion sampler and the gs on a given machine? Is it really feasible to move towards Halion? How many \'instances\' of halion are you able to bring up consecutively etc?
I am confident that the development experience of the steinberg team will produce a top-notch bug-free, low latency product in next to no time... my only concern is that I do need lots of polyphony. However, whether it is better (cheaper) to use lots of lesser halions and more machines, over fewer gigastudios and better machines is a job for a spreadsheet/calculator.
We are just on that cusp of moving into a world where 1 machine should be enough to drive all our samples... frustrating place to be, but hopefully we won\'t be there for long.
(hey - I\'m spoilt)

[Thomas_J]

While I think there will be great alternatives to Gigastudio in time, I think the guys at Nemesys are years in front of everybody else. Gigastudio has costumers like Hans Zimmer, James Newton Howard etc. + all kinds of big names. I just can\'t picture James Newton Howard fiddling with halion. Halion looks like a toy, even more so than Gigasampler did. For orchestral purposes I think Gigastudio is miles ahead of anything else, and I think other developers realize that as well. They just want a piece of the cake. They may satisfy the techno-freaks (in lack of a better word) but it will never be same as Gigastudio. I really don\'t miss any features in gigastudio at the present time, and I will continue to use it until I find a missing feature, in which I\'ll report it in to the nemesys guys and they\'ll hopefully have an implementation ready for the next update. They\'ve always been very forthcoming there. Anyway, I just don\'t think I\'d replace Gigastudio with a VST integrated instrument (sampler (ref. Halion)) as I feel like VST instruments are terribly clumsy to work with, and they often crash. Besides in order to get decent latency you\'d need one h3lluva audio system. I don\'t think the time has come.

Thomas

[gigaDiga]

Thank you Warren,

This has got to be the first bit of tangible feedback on Halion which I\'ve heard. Of particular interest is the notions of `polyphony` and `choking`...i.e.

When someone says they can get 40 voices polyphony on Halion is that actually 40 notes or, like GigaStudio, is it only 20 stereo notes. In this way Halion may only need to acheive 80 voice polyphony to sit shoulder to shoulder with GigaStudio 160.
Secondly... when Halion chokes up and starts note stealing does it do this in an spluttering noisy way like a child refusing to go to bed (GigaStudio) or does it do it almost unnoticably thereby enabling the user to run at max all the time without fear of the dreaded pops&clicks.

If the answer to these questions is positive then, although Halion may look like a looser on paper, it may already be in Giga\'s league.

Finally, you talk of creating a 12 layered piano in Halion.... does that mean you can have 12 dimensions? how many dimensions can you build in Halion 1.1?

Hoping you reply, thanks,

GigaDiga

[SCARBEE]

I have heard from different users that my Scarbee bass libraries will not work with Halion (Logic/Cubase crashes), probably because the samples are disc-accelerated (Nemesys-patented) but I am not sure. Has anyone tried to load Gigapiano - it uses disc-accelerated samples too? If this is possible, then this is not the problem. Then it could be the complexity of the programming or the many samples (1000 on one instrument)and I find it hard to see the point in moving to Halion just to use Giga-libraries...

I trust TASCAM will expand the giga-platform and give us graet future versions. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif

Scarbee

[This message has been edited by SCARBEE (edited 09-06-2001).]

[This message has been edited by SCARBEE (edited 09-06-2001).]

[Michiel Post]

Just tried to load my Harpsichords gig in Halion and there are severe problems upon import: the release triggered sample plays only when the sustain pedal is down. Also polyphony is reduced while pedal down. Normally I can play 40 voices (20 stereo samples note) on the same system that plays 160 voices in Gigastudio without even getting warm. When pedal down the notes are cut of when 8 notes are played.
I don\'t think I can play any music on Halion. Maybe a nice bass line will work (as long as it doesn\'t use more than 4 samples per note).
I believe Halion is a nice thing for VST people but not a serious alternative to any GigaSampler product.
Michiel

[paynterr]

Thanks to those people for trying these things out on Halion... puts me mind to rest that I\'m not investing in the wrong direction... as people have said, it sounds like halion will be great for technbo trancey people who want to add a bit of \"s-s-s-sir s-s-s-sir sample!\" ... but as for loading an orchestra... does the pope sh*t in the woods? (no polaroids on this forum please http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

[Chadwick]

Guys, if you\'re interested in the true state of HALion, go to the VST plugin forum and read the comments about bugs. Reminds me of where Gigasampler was when it was first released.

It\'ll certainly put your mind to rest if you were thinking of picking up Halion in the near future. (buy some ram and nice library disk instead!)
http://linux1723.dn.net/cgi-bin/ubb/forumdisplay.cgi?action=topics&forum=vst+plugins&number=4 (\"http://linux1723.dn.net/cgi-bin/ubb/forumdisplay.cgi?action=topics&forum=vst+plugins&number=4\")

[WTrachtman]

I can only relate my own, honest, unbiased, personal experience with both programs having used each to their respective limits in creating very large and complex piano sets. I use both Gigastudio and Halion ONLY for solo piano, so I won\'t try to extrapolate my experience to orchestrations.

First and foremost, it is my firm belief that many of the complaints about bugs/crashes/blue-screens with both the early Gigasampler and now Halion are the result of \"pilot-error\" from users. My personal experience with Gigasampler/Gigastudio is that I never experienced the frequent BSOD\'s that others complained about, and never had crashing problems other than with polyphony overload situations. Now, with Halion I also find that app to be quite stable on my setup. I freely admit to being a \"technoid\", so my computer is properly configured, which may explain why I don\'t have these problems.

====================================
When someone says they can get 40 voices polyphony on Halion is that actually 40 notes or, like GigaStudio, is it only 20 stereo notes. ...
Secondly... when Halion chokes up and starts note stealing does it do this in an spluttering noisy way like a child refusing to go to bed (GigaStudio) or does it do it almost unnoticably thereby enabling the user to run at max all the time without fear of the dreaded pops&clicks.
=====================================

There is no voice counter in Halion (that I can find) so it is difficult to answer this directly. I get the full 160 voices with Gigastudio on my computer, but when playing pieces with significant use of sustain pedal, I still hit the polyphony overload problems because of the way voices are allocated. For instance, a simple trill with two notes with pedal-down can use over 60 voices in Gigastudio (try it yourself if you don\'t believe me).
I have dozens of piano MIDI file performances which choke and sputter on Gigastudio even at 160 voice capability.
Halion\'s max polyphony setting is 64 voices. The same MIDI files which cause problems in Gigastudio play just fine (from a polyphony standpoint) on my setup with Halion. I have to assume that this is due to a more intelligent voice allocation/stealing algorithm.
To be fair, Halion has its own problems with the pedal use algorithms, and it does not play everything properly because of these pedal/keypress triggering decision bugs.


=========================================
I was surprised by the ease of programming and the flexibility of the program.
=========================================

My own programming experience with Halion is not as good. I find that it takes a very long time to do the complex crossfade programming. I have also hit some internal limits on the number of regions, and often have to do my edits in \"block segments\" to coax the thing into doing what I want.
For complex editing, I still think the Gigasampler editor is easier to use.

======================================
Finally, you talk of creating a 12 layered piano in Halion.... does that mean you can have 12 dimensions? how many dimensions can you build in Halion 1.1?
=======================================

I don\'t yet know the final limit on the number of regions/dimensions in Halion.
Although I have had problems getting edits to \"take\" with the very large number of layered and crossfaded regions I have setup, eventually I have been able to force the changes through. I suspect that once I add the pedal-down regions and the release-triggered samples I will find out what the final limit is.


========================================
I don\'t think I can play any music on Halion. Maybe a nice bass line will work
========================================

I have had no problems playing complex piano pieces with the voice setting on 64 voices. I have one demo already posted on my website (from 2 months ago) and I\'ll add some others shortly.
These demos are at: http://www.wstco.com/pianosounds/CD3.htm (\"http://www.wstco.com/pianosounds/CD3.htm\")

============================================
I have heard from different users that my Scarbee bass libraries will not work with Halion
============================================

Halion will import the Gigapiano, but it will not import my Steinway-C piano either. It crashes immediately. I suspect that both of us are using programming too complex for the import routines to handle.
This is why I always try to program in native format whenever I use a software application. I have never yet encountered an import translator which gives results as good as direct native format programming.


I personally don\'t like the Cubase/VST program environment as much as I like Cakewalk/Sonar.
I still prefer using Gigastudio and Cakewalk, but in the end it comes down to achievable performance with each set of software for the particular use you have in mind. Both programs can be made significantly better with some simple program improvements, so it will be interesting to see how things progress.

Regards,

Warren Trachtman
http://www.wstco.com/pianosounds/ (\"http://www.wstco.com/pianosounds/\")




[This message has been edited by WTrachtman (edited 09-06-2001).]

[SCARBEE]

I just saw this (see below) on the cubase forum - can anyone confirm that this is true?

I am working on a mac with Cubase VST 32 and HAlion
I have successfully brought in a couple of giga libraries into HALion on the Mac (Scarbee bass and NYC drumworks, even the key switching works) but I tried some of the piano samples that I have like Trachtman and steinway B and when you \"choose\" the CD rom to \"browse\" it goes straight to the mac hard drive and ignores the CD!

The thread is: http://linux1723.dn.net/forum/Forum4/HTML/002552.html (\"http://linux1723.dn.net/forum/Forum4/HTML/002552.html\")

Scarbee

[paynterr]

We needn\'t worry too much... let\'s face it, the cost of each sampler is little more than one sample library.
The important thing is that people are producing good, lardge, expressive sample libs.
Argueing over which sampler, I guess, is a little like argueing over which CD player to use... the important factor is your music collection.
I know, terrible analogy...
I guess we just stick with GS for the time being and see what happens... it stands to reason that any other samplers MUST provide equal or better facilities than GS to compete and win the \'professional\' users... iut therefore stands to reason that GS will react under Tascam and likewise improve... which can only be good for the rest of us.

[SCARBEE]

Maybe GigaStudio can get more out of Hailion than the other way around. If TASSCAM is smart, they will hire some guys to make the interface and the overall graphics look more like Hailion. They could learn some cool tricks concerning the user-friendliness too.

Scarbee

[gigaDiga]

Thanks Warren,

I have a piano composition which demands continued sustain as it grows and grows as well as washing out. One day I got 160 poly from GigaStudio and was able to play 8 bars of the piece before choke up. My usual poly, however, is 120-140 which chokes up during bar 6. It\'s bizarre but probably true that Halion with 64 poly (half that of my current poly) would probably be able to play 16 bars or more of my composition unhindered.

You are absolutely correct. With the way things stand for GigaStudio the repeated playing of two notes with sustain will eventually clog it up. With this awful approach to note stealing and polyphony management `GigaStudio 2` could be a more appropriate name... as in 2 voice polyphony. Hell even the repeated playing of one note with sustain would probably kill GigaStudio aswell...

I really hope Tascam can tackle this. I\'ve spent all my cash on my current setup so there\'s no money left to buy Halion on a whim. The minute WDM drivers come through for my soundcard, however, I\'m gonna have to put my credit card under lock and key... I can feel the urge to reach for it already.

p.s. what about Halion & Sonar using www.fxpansion.com (\"http://www.fxpansion.com\") vst>dxi wrapper?

[OH]

>I really hope Tascam can tackle this...<

Tascam needs to get the input of all of you. I don\'T know if they have their own GIGA-discussion-group already working, but they definitely need your direct input...

------------------
O.H.

[Michiel Post]

Hi Warren & others,
\'For instance, a simple trill with two notes with pedal-down can use over 60 voices in Gigastudio (try it yourself if you don\'t believe me). \'
Have you tried the MASK feature in the gigaeditor to mask notes? If I remember correctly this solves the problem completely.
Michiel

[Michiel Post]

The option is labeled SELF MASK in the mix page of the editor. If you check that box for all voices and all the layers and dimensions, the polyphony meter shows a maximum of 16 notes during even the wildest trills with the sustain pedal down.


[This message has been edited by Michiel Post (edited 09-07-2001).]

[WTrachtman]

=====================
The option is labeled SELF MASK in the mix page...
=====================

Been there, done that, doesn\'t make any difference, has no effect.

Neither the self-mask, nor the \"piano release mode\" in the instrument properties box has any effect with the pedal-down.
Perhaps the final number of voices reached is partially dependent on the total number of sample layers in the set, but for my 8-layer set the results are as I\'ve indicated, and as has been confirmed by many others for over a year now. If you examine my piano set, you\'ll find these boxes are all already checked.

==================================
..but they definitely need your direct input..
==================================

Been there, done that, doesn\'t make any difference, has no effect.

Regards,
Warren Trachtman

[WTrachtman]

=======================================
p.s. what about Halion & Sonar using www.fxpansion.com (\"http://www.fxpansion.com\") vst>dxi wrapper?
=======================================

I\'ve tried the DXi wrappers, but they Don\'t work for me. The app appears, and can be activated, but I can\'t load any instrument banks into it when using a Dxi wrapper.
Other VSTs work OK, so I have to assume it is something unique to Halion causing the incompatibility.

Regards,
Warren Trachtman

[Adrian H]

With regards to polyphony in Halion - If you need more polyphony, all you need to do (so long as your PC is powerful enough!) is open up another instance of Halion. As it is a VSTi instrument you can run more than one copy at a time.

[Michiel Post]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Adrian H:
With regards to polyphony in Halion - If you need more polyphony, all you need to do (so long as your PC is powerful enough!) is open up another instance of Halion. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
...so we play one hand of a piano score in one instance of Halion and the other hand on the other, using two keyboards? http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif


Michiel

[Rudi]

LOL!

Actually, going by the cubase.net forum, many people have been caught out with the polyphony in HALion.

The polyphony can be set globally or at programme level. By default when you start HALion and also when you import sample files the polyphony is set to a very low number (I can\'t remember off-hand maybe as low as 8 notes) in order to enable lower spec systems to run smoothly.

However if your computer is up to it you can up the max polyphony to something like 250 voices.

I also believe that this works for either mono or stereo samples but as I only saw it on a friend\'s system I cannot be a 100% sure.

Additionally you can the audition the playback a different \"quality\" settings. This lessen the strain if your system is choking on too many notes.

Finally, should your PC be an \"uber\" machine (or next year\'s model ;-) and be up to it you could in theory open up to 8 instances of HALion in Cubase giving you:

8 HALions x 16 channels x 250+ notes polyphony...

Quite a lot of notes!!!

Regards,

Rudi


[This message has been edited by Rudi (edited 09-12-2001).]

[Chadwick]

Halion won\'t import compressed Gig libraries:

From the Cubase forums:

HALion V.1.10 supports *.GIG files Import. Not the compressed GIGA MULTI LIB Sounds format of EAST-WEST. You need to IMPORT the Steinway with GIGA SAMPLER first. After that, you can import it to HALion. I did so myself with the Boesendorfer 275 and it works.


So. To use all the Halion library options, at this point you simply need to own Gigasampler!