To all composers

[esteven1]

Greetings,

After listening to some of the wonderful mp3\'s that have been placed online I was wondering can you guys offer some tips on how to lay down stuff for orchestra\'s. For example, what are the steps from the brain/heart to the final performance of the note.

Do you treat each section as a choir and compose/voice in that type of style? Do you write the string parts first etc.... stuff like that is what I\'m after.

I spent most of my 24 years playing solo piano but now I\'d like to tackle some orchestal things. What do you all recommend? I know I can do this stuff but I just don\'t know quite where to start and how to develop a strategy. I\'m all ears and so are others in this forum who are ready to \"orchestrate\".

Note: I\'ve done orchestra courses in college but... hmmm I\'d still like to hear it from people who do this stuff on the regular.

Thanks

[esperlad]

Here are my suggestions:

Since you are pianist, you should probably create your initial compositions on two (or more if nessessary) staves.

Your next step would be to decide what instuments that you want to use.

Create the orchestration and see how you feel about what you have created.

Try to make your piano scores appear as though it were an orchestral reduction.

Begin by using small groups. This is much simpler to start with. You could try a string quartet or quintet. Four woodwinds and a horn (flute, oboe, clarinet, bassoon, horn in F). Here is an interesting idea: Try three woodwinds with various doublings, three brass (either 2 trumpets and a trombone or trumpet-horn-trombone), three misc. instrumets which could include percussion and three strings (violin, cello, Bass).

Keep in mind that when you write for small groups to have a harmony instrument in mind such as a guitar, piano, harp, banjo, ect. when writing. Of course it depends on the music itself. Not all types of music would work that way.

Good luck

[IOComposer]

I\'d suggest picking up \"The Study of Orchestration\" by Samual Adler. I used it in college and it\'s a fantastic resource to the beginning orchestrator.
Good luck!
-J

[El-Sim]

esteven-

Im not sure if im talking under u, so please forgive if I am.

The most important thing to me is to make sure that u have your themes(melodies) together first. That way u have a solid jumping off point no matter how which instruments u imagine playing it, and material from which to grow.
If you read Arnold Schoenberg\'s fundamentals of theory he explains the essentials of a theme.

Second, since you play the piano I would definately check out a couple of different harmonizations of your themes- that way u have some variations to play against- and can easily use different orchestrations.

Hope this helps-

El-Sim

[esteven1]

Man... You guys are wonderful and so helpful!! This is a great board. Thanks for the responses thus far. Those are some excellent tips. IOComposer: I actually have that Orchestration book buried in my house somewhere. Never had too much time to read it during schoool because of a CS Minor and a wife and family to take care of... I will dig into to it now though.

[esperlad]

\"Instrumentally Speaking\" by Robert Russell Bennet is also good, and great reading.

[ursatz]

All those book recommendations above are good ones. At the risk of making an obvious point, I\'ll add a suggestion that it\'s also a good idea to study scores by composers whose orchestrations you admire. There are lots of composers who handle the orchestra exceptionally well. One possibly non-obvious composer to look at is Respighi - I think he does some stunningly imaginative things with the orchestra.

[PatS]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ursatz:
All those book recommendations above are good ones. At the risk of making an obvious point, I\'ll add a suggestion that it\'s also a good idea to study scores by composers whose orchestrations you admire. There are lots of composers who handle the orchestra exceptionally well. One possibly non-obvious composer to look at is Respighi - I think he does some stunningly imaginative things with the orchestra.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Excellent reminder, ursatz! BTW, I\'ve been looking far and wide for several Respighi scores (the Roman trilogy and the Three Botticelli Pictures) to add to my personal collection, but I can only find the Fountains. I can survive without these scores, since I\'m only 10 minutes from the university. Still, I\'d like to study and mark them in the comfort of my home. Any suggestions as to where I might look next?

I would add that Mahler, Stravinsky, Debussy, and Ravel, to name but a few, have done wonders with the orchestra. The Dover editions of their works are readily available and inexpensive.

Pat

[This message has been edited by PatS (edited 09-03-2001).]

[ursatz]

Pat,

Extraordinary! Fountains seems to the only readily accessible one. You might try Ricordi ( http://www.ricordi.it (\"http://www.ricordi.it\") ); they seem to have them, but if you don\'t read Italian it\'s hard to tell how you\'d order them. This is of interest to me as well - my copy of Pines was \"borrowed\" many years ago by someone who is now dead. Seems like there\'s some element of justice in this.....

BTW - \"Mahler, Stravinsky, Debussy, and Ravel\" - those would top my list as well.

[PatS]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ursatz:
Pat,

Extraordinary! Fountains seems to the only readily accessible one. You might try Ricordi ( http://www.ricordi.it (\"http://www.ricordi.it\") ); they seem to have them, but if you don\'t read Italian it\'s hard to tell how you\'d order them.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hey, Andrea: Can you help us out here? I found the following at the Casa Ricordi site, which, believe it or not, I bookmarked a few months ago, but I couldn\'t make heads or tails of the listing. Here\'s what I found by searching for \"Respighi\" at http://www.ricordi.com/vendita/p-catalogo_classica_uk.html (\"http://www.ricordi.com/vendita/p-catalogo_classica_uk.html\"):

PR 1333
Respighi, Ottorino
FONTANE DI ROMA, PINI DI ROMA, FESTE ROMANE
Partiture e mat. Orch.: Musica Sinfonica
pp.297
L.32.000
M-041-91333-9

PR 1342
Respighi, Ottorino
GLI UCCELLI, TRITTICO BOTTICELLIANO
Partiture e mat. Orch.: Musica Sinfonica
pp.134
L.23.500
M-041-91342-1

Specifically, what is \"Partiture e mat. Orch.\"? I suspect \"L.32.000\" is the price, but I want to make sure I\'m ordering just the conductor\'s score and not a set of parts. The site lists several \"Ricordi Media Stores\" (under \"Printed Music Editions,\" then \"Addresses for orders and/or purchases\"). Are there any you would recommend?

Pat

[This message has been edited by PatS (edited 09-03-2001).]

[PatS]

Ignore this post. I accidentally clicked the wrong icon. (My 4-year-old son needed a bit of help in the bathroom and thus distracted me.)

Pat

[This message has been edited by PatS (edited 09-03-2001).]

[PatS]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by IOComposer:
I\'d suggest picking up \"The Study of Orchestration\" by Samual Adler. I used it in college and it\'s a fantastic resource to the beginning orchestrator.
Good luck!
-J<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I second this. If you have limited funds, at the very least get the Adler text and perhaps the accompanying workbook and \"enhanced\" CDs. The 3rd edition is due out in December; it was supposed to be released in July, then September, so December may be a no-show.

Alfred Blatter\'s textbook, Instrumentation/Orchestration, is also good. I appreciate the fingering charts at the end of the book.

If you\'re close to a college or university library, check out those two texts, as well as those by Piston, Rimsky-Korsakov, Forsyth, and Berlioz/Strauss, among many others.

Pat

[This message has been edited by PatS (edited 09-03-2001).]

[apessino]

Hello gentlefolks, http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

sorry about the delay, I have been so busy over the past couple of weeks that I had completely missed this thread.

>>
Partiture e mat. Orch.: Musica Sinfonica
<<

Partitura is \"score\" (as in \"full score,\" as opposed to a part or a single instrument score, in which case it\'s called \"spartito\") and I can only assume that \"mat. orch.\" stands for \"materiali per orchestra,\" or \"orchestral material.\"

In this context, I believe it is a classification, as in:

Author: Respighi
Pieces: Roman Trilogy
Category: Full Scores/Orchestral Parts
Subcategory: Symphonic Music
etc.

From the price (L. 32.000 is about 17 USD ), I would guess that these are those tiny \"pocket scores\" which are so popular in Europe. Last time I was at Ricordi\'s headquarters (last fall) they had tons of these. I bought a bunch of Wagner and Rossini scores for about 10 bucks a piece (the Rienzi Overture in full score for about $8! Rossini\'s Stabat Mater for $11!). The scores actually come from a variety of publishers (not just Ricordi) and the quality varies, but generally these are perfectly fine for studying.

I often attend rehearsals of the Los Angeles Philharmonic (the first oboist, David Weiss, is a great friend of mine and a treasure of a human being, so they let me in the rehearsals even though they are not open..). These little scores are perfect for me to take along and follow with, so I try to buy as many as I can. I have several of Berlioz works, all of Shubert\'s Symphonies, and a whole bunch of others.

Also, I am very interested in Respighi\'s scores (talk about a master orchestrator!!!) and, like you, I have been unsuccessfully trying to find anything else besides Fontane di Roma (which I own). I was already planning to stock up on Respighi next time I go to Italy (late winter, or maybe next spring), if we can\'t get them here I can pick some up for you guys as well.

Cheers!

A-

--------
Andrea G. Pessino (not female, just Italian)
Blizzard Entertainment

apessino@blizzard.com

[ursatz]

Andrea,

Thanks for the translation!

Am I right in my assumption that there\'s no way of ordering scores from the ricordi site, either on line or by mail? If so, it looks like we may have to take you up on your kind offer when you visit Italy next!

I\'m still just amazed that these scores are so hard to find. I have two of those \"pocket scores\" - Roman Festivals and Fountains, so I\'d be interested in Pines and probably some others (Vetrate di Chiesa comes to mind).

Well, this has gotten a little off the original topic - but not that far: after all, an aspiring orchestration student could do a lot worse than to study Respighi\'s technique!

[PatS]

Many thanks, Andrea! I\'m green with envy that you get to sit in on those rehearsals. Have you summoned the courage to talk to Salonen about sampling technology (among a bezillion other things)? I know he uses synths and possibly samplers to produce personal mockups, and he\'s a member of the board at Noteheads (maker of Igor Engraver). In other words, he\'s no stranger to the MIDI/digital world.

I hope this doesn\'t take us too far off topic, but you really piqued my curiosity. :-)

Pat

[apessino]

Hello ursatz,

>>
Am I right in my assumption that there\'s no way of ordering scores from the ricordi site
<<

I took a quick look at the site, and yes, I believe you are right, they don\'t appear to be setup for any kind of e-commerce. The few pages in English could use a.. er.. \"revision,\" me thinks.. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif Maybe I\'ll offer them my services for the modest fee of $6000 an hour.

>>
I\'m still just amazed that these scores are so hard to find..
<<

I agree. Other works of his I\'d like to study are the Trittico Botticelliano, Gli Uccelli and, especially, La Boutique Fantasque (after Rossini).

Have you looked at SheetMusicPlus.com? They don\'t have Pini or Feste (ouch) but they have several other Respighi scores (not much of his orchestral music, sadly). Many arrangements from band, and a few reductions, but none of the \"good stuff.\" They have two separate editions of La Boutique, but these are full conductor scores at a whopping $100 a pop.. that\'s a little much just to study the score.

Cheers,

A-

[apessino]

Hi Pat!
>>
I\'m green with envy that you get to sit in on those rehearsals.
<<

No need to be!

I know where you live http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif and you would be welcome to join me any time you wish/can. I\'ve had as many as three other composers come with me, I just need to let David know so he can put our names down with the guards. As long as we behave ourselves, as I am sure we would, they don\'t mind at all.

The LA Phil is truly an incredible orchestra, an under appreciated gem in my opinion. I\'ve heard lots of orchestras in my life, and IMHO this is one of the most technically proficient group of musicians anywhere in the world. One of the greatest concert-going nights of my life was the LA Phil season opener in 1996, Esa-Pekka conducting the LA Phil (with plenty of extras) in Mahler\'s 2nd.. ahhhh here come the chills just thinking about it.. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif What a night that was. The orchestra was on fire, Esa-Pekka must have been high on something, and the music was.. well, Mahler 2nd! \"One of the greatest creations ever to spring from the mind of man..\" a critic once called it, and I agree. I was sitting in fourth row, slightly to the left of the conductor.. also known as \"the perfect spot.\" I have studied Mahler\'s 2nd extensively, one might even say I was obsessed with it for a while.. and of all the live and recorded performances I was able to hear or attend, none comes close to that memorable night.

Aaaaaanyhow.. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif as a music student, back in Italy, attending rehearsals was part of daily life. When not at conservatory studying or making music ourselves we used to go attend rehearsals at theatres and halls (La Scala, in particular). During the summer, I would go vacation near Macerata (in central Italy) where a glorious summer opera season is held every year in an incredible Roman arena called the \"Sferisterio,\" and I used to attend all rehearsals by day and performances at night.

For anyone even remotely interested in composing orchestral music, there is nothing quite as invigorating as attending not only live performances, but also experiencing as many rehearsals as possible. Besides having the various orchestral color always fresh in your mind, attending rehearsals allows you to learn to understand the players, and it helps you develop an instinct for how they will react to your writing.

Personally, as much as I understand and appreciate the need to use samplers, samples and sequencers, I would throw it all away in an instant in exchange for a small, half decent orchestra to play my music (well, I should not say that, because I\'ve just got word that two of my works will be performed by \"more than half decent\" orchestras in Eastern Europe this coming fall http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif ). There is simply no comparison, and I am convinced there never will be. But that\'s a whole other discussion, even MORE off-topic than this one!

>>
Have you summoned the courage to talk to Salonen about sampling technology
<<

I have only spoken to Esa-Pekka a couple of times, strangely enough.. I seem to go more often when guest conductors are performing. I\'ve had the pleasure of watching (and, at times, meeting) many of the world\'s finest soloists and conductors; Zubin Metha, Jesus Lopez Cobos, Carlo Rizzi, to name a few. I know about Salonen\'s involvement with Igor (which I more or less use myself.. at least I try.. it still has some serious stability issues), but I have never spoken with him about it. If I ever get an opportunity again, I\'ll certainly try to mention GigaStudio and all that comes with it, it would be most interesting to know if he\'s heard of it. I know for a fact that, in a few years, Esa-Pekka plans on retiring from conducting to dedicate himself to composition, so it might be that in a few years we\'ll see him hanging around here asking for tips on how to get \"..an expressive Oboe phrase using the Dan Dean Solo Woodwinds..\" http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif

A-