ARTICLE: What kind of sampled articulations do we REALLY need ?

[Maarten Spruijt]

I did some research on a selection of familiar movie trumpet themes. What kind of articulations, note lengths and attack-velocities are most common in these themes? This is really a topic to think about!

In other words --- WHAT KIND OF SAMPLED ARTICULATIONS, PERFORMANCES DO WE NEED MOST ?

The results and conclusions to this research I collected in an article, which is free for ANYONE to read here:
http://www2.hku.nl/~maarte2/public/articulations.html (\"http://www2.hku.nl/~maarte2/public/articulations.html\")

Please read it, if you can spare the time. In my opinion, the results are really surprising!

Maarten Spruijt

------------------
( www.maartenspruijt.com (\"http://www.maartenspruijt.com\") )
Music demo: http://www2.hku.nl/~maarte2/audio/tpsuite.mp3 (\"http://www2.hku.nl/~maarte2/audio/tpsuite.mp3\")
ICQ: 37834976

[This message has been edited by Maarten Spruijt (edited 08-31-2001).]

[Marc Floessel]

I can\'t believe we\'re giving this out for free! Maarten, I am cutting you off of the Britney flow!

Anyway, get it while it lasts. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif

[Chadwick]

Absolutely fantastic approach Maarten.
When you have to make decisions on what articulations to leave out, and you\'re making a library which is designed to emulate popular film music - this is the way to go.

Now if everyone could just take your template and apply it to their own ten favourite scores...

I might not be the best to do this because I tend to like my portatos baked, not fried.

[Chadwick]

Hey Marc, leave his Britney alone!

Unless you want to spend ages picking apart a couple of hundred film scores, I think opening this idea up is a good way to go.

This way, if someone has twenty spaghetti westerns they like, they can put up the articulation analsyes, leave it at that, and you won\'t be being hassled as much for niche styles. Doesn\'t mean you have to use them either, does it?

Maybe you should offer anyone that does a unique analysis of ten scores a ten percent discount, or a guaranteed opportunity to be a beta tester...

[Aenigma]

One thing you might want to think about -- are those articulations that are used most really what is going to make it sound more realistic? Or does the realism stem from some small detail that only comes up here and there.

Take the stacatto and stacatissimo articulations. Obviously the shorter of the two is shown in your example to come up far more often than the longer one, but without having a longer one to use it with it would completely lose it\'s desired effect. So, I\'m hoping that you are planning to not just include the most commonly used articulations, but also those that will be used to contrast with them. (IE, including a plain stacatto, not just the stacatissimo). It would be nearly impossible to use one length from a different library, becuase of differences in tibre and mic\'ing.

I\'ve been hoping for a library with 2 different length stacattos for a while, and I think that having that single extra short length alone would add so much to the realism of brass, woodwinds, and strings alike.

I wonder, if some of the sample selection could be made through an addon application along the lines of \"Maestro Tools.\" I\'ve only heard what\'s been posted here about that, but surely it could automate some of these tasks by using MIDI note length data.

Surely I\'m not alone in looking forward to the first library that attempts to use some of these big concept changes that so many are talking about here. I hope that it really makes the difference that so many people are saying it will.

[SCARBEE]

Hi Maarten,

Very nice - good thinking!

I did the same kind oif research, when I wanted to create my bass libraries: I had a fantastic Slap bass teacing book, where all the examples (Score) were recorded to an audio CD. So I sequenced the \"hardest\" examples and could compare them to the \"original\". If I couldn\'t do some of the stuff or if it sounded un-natural, I went back to sample some new articulations.
When I could do everything, I send a demo to the very respected bass player and author of the book. He respond was not happy:

\"...in all honesty I find this
type of thing to be more than a little bit disturbing!

...I\'m aware that many keyboard players have found (name of the book) ! useful as well,
but your product seems to go beyond simple sequencing.

...I\'m not sure how I feel about it. I\'m certainly someone who utilizes
technology in my work, but I\'m not sure about using technology to
eliminate players!\"

He was not happy, but I had reached my goal.

Scarbee



[This message has been edited by SCARBEE (edited 09-01-2001).]

[IOComposer]

That\'s a great story, Scarbee. It\'s funny, but I think there are a lot of musicians that aren\'t aware or are just starting to become aware of what\'s going on with this technology right now. It used to be that people joked around about losing there gigs to a sampler, because everyone knew that a real player \"makes all the difference\". However, that\'s not really something to joke around about anymore, because many musicians really are losing there gigs now. I think the profession of \"studio player\" is no longer a viable career for any musician, regardless of skill. I did quite a bit of session work in college, but noticed that the crowd that I used to hang with at that time has pretty much dissolved. Nobody\'s really getting any session work anymore and they\'re all sitting at home trying to figure out how to make Giga work! http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif
It\'s ironic but the main reason why I got the brass musicians that I sampled to agree to be sampled was by playing up the inferiority of samplers at the time (3 years ago). What they didn\'t know was that I was creating libraries for giga and nobody knew what it was or what it was capable of at the time, so they had no problem letting me sample them. If they knew that I\'d be pretty much eliminating the need to hire them for sessions, I think they would have thought twice about it. Funny that they didn\'t question why I was sampling every possible articulation in the book!
-J

[Neal Keane]

Maarten, excellent idea and great concept!

The only problem with these type of surveys is the results tend to be skewed because the sample is too small, or the researcher biased. In this case, since John Williams is the composer of 70% of your theme list, the only real conclusion is that these are the favorite articulations of John Williams. They may also be the ones most needed to convey the heroic image but the data does not prove that.

However, there is nothing wrong with gleaning from Williams\' body of work the rules needed to \"sound like John Williams\". After all, Western harmonic rules were derived by musicians looking at Bach\'s stuff and saying \"Gosh, he did that a lot.\" http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

I\'ll bet my AO horns that if you did the same analysis on ten pieces by Hans Zimmer, you\'ll get a different set of most needed articulations. Anybody willing? http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

Neal

[SCARBEE]

Hi IOComposer:

I have experienced the same with many of my friends, who are excellent musicians. Most of them do not make their living anymore doing music, but have to work in the airport or something like that. I feels a bit strange, but the future is going another way.
The fact is that you have to be a musician, composer, technician, arranger, computer-nerd to make a living today and you can not afford to stay away from technology for even a short period.

I know that some really cool musicians use my library to \"eliminate\" other very good musicians and this has surprised me much. Some even uses my basses to do fusion/solo stuff... not even that is safe anymore.

scarbee

[paynterr]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Neal Keane:
Maarten, excellent idea and great concept!

The only problem with these type of surveys is the results tend to be skewed because the sample is too small, or the researcher biased. In this case, since John Williams is the composer of 70% of your theme list, the only real conclusion is that these are the favorite articulations of John Williams. They may also be the ones most needed to convey the heroic image but the data does not prove that.

However, there is nothing wrong with gleaning from Williams\' body of work the rules needed to \"sound like John Williams\". After all, Western harmonic rules were derived by musicians looking at Bach\'s stuff and saying \"Gosh, he did that a lot.\" http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

I\'ll bet my AO horns that if you did the same analysis on ten pieces by Hans Zimmer, you\'ll get a different set of most needed articulations. Anybody willing? http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

Neal <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I\'d argue that Zimmer\'s work is some of the most derivative and repeatative work in the industry... overly synthy and very easy to spot. IMHO.

[Bruce A. Richardson]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by IOComposer:
It used to be that people joked around about losing there gigs to a sampler, because everyone knew that a real player \"makes all the difference\". However, that\'s not really something to joke around about anymore, because many musicians really are losing there gigs now. I think the profession of \"studio player\" is no longer a viable career for any musician, regardless of skill. I did quite a bit of session work in college, but noticed that the crowd that I used to hang with at that time has pretty much dissolved. Nobody\'s really getting any session work anymore and they\'re all sitting at home trying to figure out how to make Giga work! http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif

-J<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

IO...I hope you don\'t mind me hijacking the thread slightly. This isn\'t aimed particularly at your post, but at a larger issue I find personally very vexing about the way this community seems to focus on the minutia while ignoring the mountain...

Being a studio musician is about a lot more than just playing a particular instrument. I would say that 95% of musicians, no matter how skilled, are not suitable musicians to hire for studio work.

Most professional players work in some kind of ensemble setting, whether it is a touring or bar band, an orchestra, or other performing ensemble. These ensembles rehearse and they are performing music where the musical direction is established before they play a note publicly. Whether it\'s an orchestra led by a conductor, or this week\'s top-grossing pop band, the musical intention has been predetermined.

Not so in the studio. Often, a studio player arrives to an empty room, a microphone, and a click track. He has a discussion with the producer, and is then responsible for not only playing well, but for establishing musical intention from thin air which will ring true when other players are added. Most players, even the most esteemed orchestra chair-holders, do not have the extra musical gravitas necessary to create this level of intention. They need instruction. True studio players are a different breed.

One of my dearest friends and collaborators is Chuck Rainey, who largely defined the way electric bass is played to this day. He was the protege of James Jamerson at Motown, and went on to revolutionize the way bass is used in grooves, from Aretha Franklin\'s hits to Steely Dan, and on well over 500 different albums and films.

Working with Chuck and other studio musicians of that caliber, it becomes clear very quickly that this sudden belief that GigaStudio/Samplers is putting people out of work is sheer fallacy. This is not the case in the real world of serious studio work, not in the least. In that settting, there is no time for someone to \"geek out\" a sound. A player is hired whose musical expertise is so polished that he can conceive a finished product he will never hear. That player may well be using GigaStudio to produce, but it is not GigaStudio, but the player himself, who provides the art.

What I see happening in this discussion forum is that a lot of people who really have not worked in the business at all (I\'m not speaking of present company, but in general) are speaking very authoritatively about issues they have not even personally experienced...or have experienced only marginally.

All the while, they take potshots at the abilities and opinions of those who are working and producing.

For the benefit of the younger developing musicians, I will say this: Your tools, including these sample libraries DO NOT MATTER. They are a grain of pepper in a pile of gnat poop compared to the other more abstract issues of true musicianship and success in the business. At the highest levels of production, no one is fretting about not having the attacks he needs to complete a piece. When money is on the line, an expert musician is hired to perform the needed part and production moves forward. It is a total and complete non-issue in the professional world of musicmaking.

What will give a composer success? It\'s very easy. Look around you. See that guy who is directing those hot little theater shows? Work for him every time he calls. One day, he\'ll be in a big theater, and will repay you with a sweet gig. Know a young producer who is knocking out amazing short films? SCORE ONE!! That young producer will remember you later when he gets his break, and you will get yours.

ALL of my work, 100%, comes from people I worked for when we were in our twenties. Now these people are all over the world, twenty years later, working great gigs. When they call me, it\'s to work on things which pay more for one gig than a full year\'s work paid when I was young. This is the way it works. This *IS* the way it works. Anyone who is truly working in the business can tell you I am speaking the truth.

This is the key to the success of the composers everyone spends so much time admiring. Danny Elfman didn\'t get scoring gigs because he worked and worked and proved himself...he got them because he connected up as a young man and worked with people who were up and coming. When they came \"up\" so did he.

Expertise, sample libraries, GigaStudio, blow-jobs...none of these things are actually critical to a person\'s eventual success or failure. The only thing that\'s critical is nurturing relationships with your peers in other disciplines.

It\'s very easy to fall into the old trap, \"If only I had *fill in the blank* I would be kicking some serious booty.\" It seems to plague this group like a disease. There\'s no magic, there are no answers.

Frankly, I wish Hans Zimmer would release his library--not because I believe it would represent some quantum leap in realism, but because I believe it would finally burst this myth that has been propagated to no end that somehow, the right sample library will make everything better. It won\'t. Samples are samples. They are, no matter how plentiful, limited and rather stupid slaves to our music. The only thing that makes divinely inspired sound is divine inspiration...

Several musicians with genuine accomplishment have been flamed and belittled here for stating the simple truth...there are no answers. Only questions. The quicker a young artist stops looking for answers, the quicker he or she will discover the true nature of creation, and ultimately success in the business of making and getting paid for your creations.

[Bruce A. Richardson]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Marc Floessel:
I can\'t believe we\'re giving this out for free! Maarten, I am cutting you off of the Britney flow!

Anyway, get it while it lasts. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

To put it bluntly, this continuing \"film sound\" myth is so laced with fallacy that I cannot believe so much stock is being placed in it.

Film music is COMPLETELY derivative.

To make an analogy: one would arrive at the same false conclusion by imagining that the ultimate salsa-rhythm library can be constructed by studying Ricky Martin.

[Bruce A. Richardson]

I also find it quite ironic that there is a claim that Miroslav Vitous sampled exactly the wrong things.

I know Miroslav personally, and he has never claimed that his library is anything except what he found **PERSONALLY** useful in his work. He is a person of amazing warmth and humility, and yet people barely past their musical adolescence have no problem attacking great work that he has done.

I have personally profited immensely from Miroslav\'s work, as have all the composers everyone so admires. Ironic that his work continues to take a beating from people who DON\'T use it for making their living.

He released it initially because people literally begged him for it, and to this day, those samples are useful for many musical situations...even though they were recorded at a time where GigaStudio\'s power was unimaginable.

[El-Sim]

Bruce-

You make some very good points.
I totally agree that music does not come from technology, but the other way around-

a couple of points however-
I think that this technology can help one develop better musicianship, it can develop imagination if used properly; but like many things- IT IS JUST A TOOL!

Secondly- I think that many peoples criticism of the Miroslav samples stems from its continued high cost, and the fact that there are so many new, good, cheaper alternatives. Its just a function of time.

Later-

El-Sim

[Neal Keane]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR> One thing you might want to think about -- are those articulations that are used most really what is going to make it sound more realistic? Or does the realism stem from some small detail that only comes up here and there.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I recalculated the articulation count based on usage within a melodic phrase. By counting each articulation only once per melodic fragment, more weight was given to the fewer contrasting articulations. Surprisingly, the results came out basically the same except that the median portato-soft attack (E) became more significant than the longest note-hard attack (B). The winners were the same:

A-longest note soft attack -2
B-Longest note hard attack -
7
C-long portato soft attack -4
D-long portato hard attack -10
E-medium portato soft attack -9
F-medium portato hard attack -22
G-short portato -
22
H-staccato -
5
I-staccatissimo -
22

[SCARBEE]

Hi Bruce,

Your points are very precise. You will probably always use the best musicians for studio work, no doubt about that. I use \"real\" musicians in my film work and sometimes I try new people, who have a good reputation. Only a few of them can actually work under these circumstances and it can be a painful and expensive experience.

The other day I was making a commercial, which should include an \"etnic\" female leadsinger. I was in a hurry and I bought Vocal Planet, since I knew there was a lot of material. It didn\'t work at all. Then I hired a Etnic singer from Kurdistan who worked as a professional singer. It was a disaster and I had lost many hours...
Then I called a singer who had worked for me several times and she made a beautyful vocal in 1 hour. My client loved it and everybody was happy.

But please remember that you live in USA and it might be easier for you to hire world class players. If you live in Greece it is slightly harder to get the great sound...

scarbee

[Neal Keane]

paynter wrote:
I\'d argue that Zimmer\'s work is some of the most derivative and repeatative work in the industry... overly synthy and very easy to spot. IMHO.

I\'d agree with that except it has nothing to do with the argument that sample articulations can be classified in order of importance (I\'m probably missing something..sorry). However, it is another reason to broaden the sample base to include different film composers as well as selected Romantic and Neoromantic ones.

I believe Maarten\'s intent was clear from the start to develop a strategy to create a library that presented the \"Hollywood\" sound, derivative or not. The fact is...the sound is omnipresent and we all have to deal with it. If I can get a library that makes it easier to articulate that style...my life is easier. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

Oh, one more thought about weighting the types of articulations...the duration of the melodic note needs to be accounted for as well. Otherwise, even the ornamental short notes will outnumber the more important held notes...maybe that\'s why Maartens\' results are skewed in favor of the short (less than 800 ms) notes.

[This message has been edited by Neal Keane (edited 09-01-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Neal Keane (edited 09-01-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Neal Keane (edited 09-01-2001).]

[IOComposer]

Bruce,
Thanks for taking my comments totally out of context http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif . I don\'t consider the company of studio musicians that I worked with as world class caliber as you have the unique perspective of doing. My point was that in my little area (just south of Hollywood) there used to be an option of doing session work for the local studios. That, in combination with playing gigs at Sea World during the day and XX nightclub at night, a good musician could make a decent bit of money. However, the studio work has dried up around town and most of the really great players have moved on to just gigging and producing. I know this because I get calls from these people all the time telling me about the reality of the present studio scene. I hope that it is different in your area because it\'s downright depressing around here. I know from experience that if I hadn\'t moved on to producing, I\'d be bumming right now too. I don\'t think that I would have been able to rise up to the ranks of the great studio players, simply because I chose the family life and couldn\'t afford to practice all day long, however there were many years that I aspired to that level and I often wonder of what could have been if I only stayed on that path. I do know however, that I love what I do now and as long as I can keep it fun and lucrative, I won\'t regret anything http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif
Oh, and my experience of getting work is exactly as yours. I can\'t say that I\'ve ever gotten work out of a cold call. It\'s always been through friends and friends of friends. I won\'t pretend to have the business figured out because I\'m surprised daily with the way the cards fall, but I will agree with you 100% that relationships and inspiration make a career and samplers and bulletin boards just waste the time away while you\'re waiting for the phone to ring http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif
-J

[Bruce A. Richardson]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by IOComposer:
Bruce,
Thanks for taking my comments totally out of context http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif .
-J<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hehe...I told you I was hijacking the thread.