New Giga User AO or sperate collections ?

[far_star]

I am new to Gigsstudio. I have the software,
(still waiting on the soundcard). I want to make beautiful classical music. I have been lurking for a while here and was going to get AO as my starter set, but lately I have not seen it recommended very much.

I am curious, if you were just starting out and had only ~$1000 to spend would you choose AO or some other combination ?

Thanks in advance,
Dan

[Damon]

For strings, AO is not your best bet. For 1000 bucks wait till Gigastrings comes out http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif(www.gigastrings.com for demos). It is a 16 CD set entirely made up of strings. It will sell for $1399.00, but if you pre-order now, you can get it for $999.00.
There are decent brass and good woodwinds on AO however.
Unfortunately, if you want good orchestral sounds you have to buy the seperate libraries for acheiving the best results.
1. Gigastrings.
2. Quantum Leap Brass or Dan Dean Solo Brass
3. Dan Dean Woodwinds, AO woodwinds, or Miroslav woodwinds
4. Ultimate Orchestral Percussion
5. Malmsjo Acoustic Grand Piano
It\'s a whooooole lot of dough, but these are the best libraries available at the moment for orchestral stuff.
AO is a good all-in-one orchestral package but after a while you will not be satisfied with the strings.
Just my 2 cents. Hope that helps.

[far_star]

Thanks for the reply. Unfortuantely, your advice would push me into the stratosphere in terms of cost. I was only planning to spend ~$1000 initally.

I may have to go with AO plus Malmsjo Piano for now and get the Gigastrings later once my Gigsstudio skills (and orchestration skills) mature.

Any other ideas ?

Dan

[This message has been edited by far_star (edited 08-30-2001).]

[nycbhh]

Hi, Dan. I\'m also a new Giga owner and am working on building my library. If I were you and I had $1000 now, what I would do is get the Gigastrings with that and then hold out for seeing what the demos and reactions are for the Orch samples that Donnie is working on. (See the thread \"Great all round orch. lib for great price,\" last post 8-23).

Personally I\'m a little irritated at the Gigastrings supposed \"post release price\" of $1400 - way out of my league for any library, so the only way I\'ll be able to afford it is if it\'s delayed until I get my Christmas bonus (but I\'d hate to wish that on those who are already waiting for their copies ;-) Anyway, you are in a much better position right now to \"have it all,\" if you time your purchases correctly.

Brad

[Francis Belardino]

if you want good orchestral sounds you have to buy the seperate libraries for acheiving the best results.
1. Gigastrings.


I found that Ulitmate Strings, a very nice set, blends well with AO Strings.

Look into Ulitmate Strings. I think they sound wonderful and the price is right.

My 2 cents

------------------
Francis Belardino
Sound Designer
Audio Visions, LTD.
Wilmington, DE.
www.audiovisionsonline.com

[Francis Belardino]

I would go with AO Complete Giga Format.

Build on it after YOU find weakness.

At the very least, you can compose for the full orchestra the second you have AO. If you buy Gigastrings...all you have is strings. (The best strings on the market, but still)

Go AO and add to it. I find it hard to believe that AO would be a waste...even after you replace the brass with QLB (for example)

Thanks all.

------------------
Francis Belardino
Sound Designer
Audio Visions, LTD.
Wilmington, DE.
www.audiovisionsonline.com

[nycbhh]

But if Donnie is going to have a better full orchestra library in two months or so at a third of the AO price, then Dan could have a full orchestra library AND Gigastrings and only have to pay a couple hundred more for it all. Of course, it remains to be seen if Donnie\'s library is indeed going to kick AO\'s butt, but I think it\'s worth waiting a bit to find out.

Brad

[Francis Belardino]

I heard the demo of this new to be full orchestra collection... I feel that the AO demo is much more advanced.

Don\'t get me wrong. DSSoundware are top notch. I own UOP and I loved it from day one.

I just purchased AO complete giga. It really has alot to offer now that it has been revamped for Giga.

Again, all this is just my thoughts. No need to flame :)

PS. Whatever Donnie puts his hands on...I\'ll buy anyway and add to my collection.

[donnie]

You guys can hear a quick demo of the Prosonus stuff here...
http://www.dssoundware.com/Prosonus.mp3 (\"http://www.dssoundware.com/Prosonus.mp3\")

As I said before this older material but I trully believe it will be much better than AO when we\'re finished.

Donnie

[Francis Belardino]

keep up the great, Donnie.

PS. Thanks again for the Rev Snare.

------------------
Francis Belardino
Sound Designer
Audio Visions, LTD.
Wilmington, DE.
www.audiovisionsonline.com

[Francis Belardino]

Ooops,

\"Keep up the great WORK\"

LOL

[far_star]

Thanks for the help guys.


Hmmmm I wonder how much longer the Gigastrings will be available at the lower price. I\'ll be ready to buy in a month or so.

As far as Gigastrings go, I listened to the demos and nothing really made me say, \"Wow, this IS worth an extra thousand bucks.\" The demos were too short. Any other demos out there that could impress me better ?


Thanks,
Dan

[nycbhh]

Being a beginner, I just have demos and hearsay to go on, no actual experience with any of the libraries. I\'m really interested in hearing people compare the two libraries when they come out.
The way I see it though (this is assuming that Dan would eventually want to get Gigastrings), Dan could buy AO now for $900 and later get the Garritan set for $1400 and he will ultimately have invested $2300, or he could get the Garritan now and wait a few months for the Prosonus set and will have saved $1000. So I guess the question is, based on your experience with AO and Donnie\'s demos do you believe that AO is superior enough to warrant spending an extra $1000 (also taking into account that Dan would have to wait a few months for the Prosonus orch)? I\'m also asking for myself, since I was originally planning on getting AO and am holding off to see what the reaction to Prosonus is, mostly due to a lot of negative feedback I have read on this forum re AO. Has the criticism been overstated? As always, any advice is appreciated. :-)

Brad

[Jamieh]

I just have to ask. It may have been a ton of work but it is still AO we are hearing, right?

I\'m assuming you are talking about the main demo AO has on their demo CD\'s. That demo includes some pre-recorded phrases that ARE available in the set, but unless you want the EXACT same phrase as the demo, it is useless. For example, the rapidly-toungued trumpet lick in the demo that sounds fantastic, well that is because the sample is a recording of a trumpet playing the entire lick. If you want a trumpet to play any OTHER lick, it isn\'t going to sound nearly as good.

[Francis Belardino]

This is all a very healthily discussion.

I trust what you are saying, Donnie. Please remember, I was fortunate enough to obtain AO complete @ 50% off so, to me, it was well worth it! I don\'t mention that to rub the noses of those who paid full price. I guess, to be honest, is there anyone here who would not pay half price for AO complete Giga?

Sorry, I am just justifying my decision to purchase.

Now, I hope to take AO and blend it with Prosonus. $299.00, is a killer price.

Hey Guys,

On a brighter note. I just wanted to share with all that I will be a married man on October, 27th 2001.

Wedding money = more CD\'s!! LOL

------------------
Francis Belardino
Sound Designer
Audio Visions, LTD.
Wilmington, DE.
www.audiovisionsonline.com

[Jamieh]

I got AO as part of a bundle with Giga 160 and QLB all together and I would certainly buy it again. I think the library has its place as a \"starter\" set. However I\'m not sure I would want to pay full price for it.

[far_star]

Wow, my 1st post has had a lot of responses. Great !

Speaking of full price vs. discount. Can anyone tell me if there is a way to buy these libraries (esp AO and related ones) at discounted prices ?


Thanks again guys,
Dan

[nycbhh]

Donnie, I just listened to your demo again. You know what would be really helpful for us newbies? Would it be possible to make two demos of the same midi, both dry, one with the Prosonus samples and the other with comparable AO samples so we can get an idea as to how they would compare \"out-of-the-box?\"

Brad

[Jamieh]

My first library was AO. Here are my impressions:

Strings are not great, however the soft sustain strings (included from the \'97 update) are quite good. Combining the strings with Dan Dean\'s solo strings ($100-150) gives usable, if not fantastic results.

Soft woodwinds are quite good. I especially like the bassoon and english horn. Clarinet and oboe are pretty good too. Not overly impressed with the flute. None of the loud versions of the woodwinds impress me, and for loud passages (and all melodic flute stuff) I find myself still using my JV1080. I\'m planning on looking into Dan Dean\'s solo woodwinds, but haven\'t had the time or $$$.

Brass in AO is not great. I ordered QLB right away and use it almost exclusively. I just ordered Dan Dean\'s solo Brass so I will comment on it when I get it.

AO is useful. It covers the whole orchestra, which makes it valuable. However it has very few sounds that are the ultimate sounds for the instrument it is covering. I think the most useful thing it has are the soft woodwinds.

If you can\'t afford a lot of sets to begin with, AO will get you up and running with decent results. However if you are really looking to build the best library you can (and you have the $$$), I don\'t think you will be using many of the AO instruments when all is said and done. And a note on the AO demo--that is as good as it gets. A LOT of work went into that demo to make it sound so good. To recreate that sound would take a TON of work.

[Francis Belardino]

I now use AO Giga as my, to steal a quote, \"workhorse\" set.

I am blending/mixing (via,24 tracks of Protools)US,UOP,QLB,ECC,MSmini with AO.

Working very well. I may add Prosonus.

------------------
Francis Belardino
Sound Designer
Audio Visions, LTD.
Wilmington, DE.
www.audiovisionsonline.com

[Francis Belardino]

By the way. Has anyone heard more about a complete orchestra set from (East/West) in the ball park of, $3k?

[Francis Belardino]

. And a note on the AO demo--that is as good as it gets. A LOT of work went into that demo to make it sound so good. To recreate that sound would take a TON of work.


Sorry to flood.

I just have to ask. It may have been a ton of work but it is still AO we are hearing, right?

[donnie]

Francis,

Thanks for the kind words!! http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

AO was my first library also and served me very well for quite some time. However I can tell you that this Prosonus library will be much better.

The demo that you are hearing is dry midi. No reverb, no eq, no nothin\'. I can assure you that you can\'t get those results with AO \"out of the box\".

Donnie

[Shine]

There is a promotional sale going on right now at .If you enter the promotion code LABORDAY in the promotional code window when placing your order and then hit the \"recalculate\" button you will get 30% off AO and all the other sample libraries
I believe it\'s only for a week though

[OH]

>Wedding money = more CD\'s!! LOL<

Hope this doesn\'t mean divorce a week later. Good luck...

------------------
O.H.

[OH]

>Wedding money = more CD\'s!! LOL<

Hope this doesn\'t mean divorce a week later. Good luck...

------------------
O.H.

[nycbhh]

Shine, thanks so much for the tip! I just went and took advantage of it :-)

How does one find out about these promotions?
Is there a mailing list I can be put on?

Brad

[Bruce A. Richardson]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by nycbhh:
Donnie, I just listened to your demo again. You know what would be really helpful for us newbies? Would it be possible to make two demos of the same midi, both dry, one with the Prosonus samples and the other with comparable AO samples so we can get an idea as to how they would compare \"out-of-the-box?\"

Brad<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That is not a very real-world sort of demo situation. I make the comment because a lot of beginners seem to want this.

You must keep in mind that such comparisons are completely invalid. The proof of a library\'s value is what can be coaxed from it, not what arbitrarily spits out.

For instance, I did two demos for Dan Dean of the same piece, one with his woodwinds but Quantum Leap Brass, one with his woodwinds and his brass.

Each sequence sounds good in its own way, but when I applied the same MIDI file from the QLB version to the DDSB version, it sounded TERRIBLE. AWFUL.

Yet ultimately, the DDSB is the better version because it is a far more detailed sample set...fewer \"instruments\" more completely covered. This would not have been apparent if I had just arbitrarily applied the same MIDI file to both.

Conversely, applying the new MIDI file to the QLB version had the same results, what sounded good before sounded TERRIBLE.

Hopefully this demonstrates why using an arbitrary MIDI file to demonstrate multiple libraries is not a good idea. What happens is one of two things: Either the demo fails to bring out the best of either library, or worse, it favors one library falsely over another. In both cases, the \"newbie\" does not get accurate information.

I believe this to be true even of piano libraries, even though lots of comparison sites exist. Certainly the problem mentioned above is not as obvious with a piano library, but different keyboard response curves often make a piano library sound radically different. If the MIDI file happens to be \"too hard\" or \"too soft\" for a given library\'s design, the comparison is again totally invalid--a better library might actually sound worse than an inferior one.

Hope that helps illustrate the issue.

Best regards,
Bruce

[pantonality]

I commented on AO Strings sometime ago. I\'m a fairly new user to Giga and purchased AO Strings.

When I loaded the legato violins I couldn\'t believe what I heard,... aliasing. It sounded like my old DX7. After working with it a bit I find the soft sustained strings acceptable, the solo strings are OK, but don\'t try using the mod wheel to cross fade the sounds or you\'ll get phasing. I can make the violins passable by layering in some old D50 strings for rosin and to help nail down the fundemental. Overall I\'d say I got what I paid for. It was my disappointment with that library that caused me to find this forum so it wasn\'t a complete waste.

I hope to have some pieces with what I can use of AO Strings on my MP3.com site in a few weeks.

Steve www.mp3.com/stevechandler (\"http://www.mp3.com/stevechandler\")

Steve

[Francis Belardino]

Below, is what attracted me the most.

\"A variety of important and frequently used phrasings and articulations, which cannot be satisfactorily imitated with normal samples, for example, half or whole tone trills, various grace notes, runs, arpeggios, tremolos, crescandi, glissandi and other events playable in any key or pitch. A collection of unconventional, interesting sounds played on the classical instruments such as scratches, whistles, thumps, buzzes and other effects, which can be technically modified in many ways, adding a new color to your music\"

------------------
Francis Belardino
Sound Designer
Audio Visions, LTD.
Wilmington, DE.
www.audiovisionsonline.com

[nycbhh]

Bruce, thanks so much for your post. I think I\'m starting to get my mind wrapped around the problems with demos and libraries. I guess I should just shut up until I have worked with a few libraries and understand how things like the programming works, but jeez it\'s hard to plunk hundreds down on something when your not sure what you are getting.

This, of course, just helps illuminate the problem newbies (and I suspect most everyone else) can have with spending huge chunks of money without knowing how the samples are going to work with their own personal compositional style. (\"Sure, the demo sounds great, but what are these samples going to sound like on my stuff?\") It\'s a little frustrating having to make big purchasing decisions \"blindly.\" Let\'s hope one day the developers will be able to figure out a way to let us try out their stuff without \"giving the store away\" so I can buy in confidence. Until then, I guess I\'ll keep my eyes plastered to this forum for you all\'s opinions. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

Brad

[KingIdiot]

I agree with Bruve completely. Libraries are all calibrated differently. As well each one may \"work\" differently, not to mention have bettr response in some areas and worse response in some areas with regards to dynamics. Using the Same MIDI file for checking libraries against each other isnt a balanced test.

What I still dont understand about this forum is that peopelaren\'t \"sharing\" their techniques to make existing libraries sound better, but rather only complain and wait for the next big thing.


I still find AO very usable, for layering, some short brass attacks. In fact, in my Brass tweaking I found that the AO Horns sound more like the horns in the actual \"Hook\" lick more than any other library. The sounds themselves are usuable, and with some tweaking and good sequencer programming you can get a pretty good sound.

Another thing I like about AO is that I can put together a \"quick\" orchestra fairly quick without having to load huge insturments...or even lite isntruments.

Do I think AO is the best no.

IMO Garritan\'s is the best for strings, QLB with AO for brass, and I\'m still \"iffy\" about DD SWW, they dont \"sit back\" enough in the mix for me without some heavy EQ (to lose proximity effect), which tens to make them lose a little character...maybe I\'m just used to the so called \"crappy\" AO soudns, and need to listent to alot more orchestral woodwind music.

As for percussion, gonna check out teh New lib from Donnie and Sean, that should be a winner. This is one area where I do believe AO to be weak in.

Anyhow, there will always be better libraries on the horion, but dont let our comments affect your use of the library. There is NOTHING worse thn buying something and focusing on all the bad parts because peopel oint them out to you.

Again tho these are all opinions, if you have a low budget, get hat you can, then ask us how to make it sound better, and tell us waht you are \"looking\" for, maybe we can help, and share some ideas.

------------------
Really...I am an Idiot

[Shine]

Nycbhh,i,m glad you were able to take advantage of the offer.
I bought the AO complete set from them a little while back and since then, they\'ve been sending me an e-mail every six weeks or so to let me know when they are doing promotional offers usually at 30% off
Now you\'ve bought from them i\'m sure they will let you know when they are doing this promotions.

[MikeGraybill]

Well, out of luck as usual. My first purchase was X-Sample brass (Hrn, Trmb, and Trmpt) but was some time ago. I got emails about specials, but then they stopped coming, and I JUST ordered AO Strings for giga last nite (they should be arriving tommorrow morning.) So I just paid full price for something that could have been less... Ya know, I used to think I was lucky!.

But, I thought I\'d take King up on his suggestion. Seems like just about everyone here started with AO strings at some point. Any tips as to how to make em better? The x-fading note is good to know, and a bit disappointing, but I\'ve dealt with that so far, so nothing new there. But how do you more experienced composers make them sound better? What do you know now that you wish you\'d known when you first bought them (ie. what technique would have made them sound good during your first efforts with the samples?)

I\'ve got a whole labor day weekend to play with em before school kicks back in, and maybe the pointers here would let me use the strings confidently in my compositions for class. Thanks in advance,

-Mike-

[donnie]

An quick and easy thing to do is this....

Go to edit and export all folders.

Open up a couple of the exported .wavs in your fav. editor and play with the eq and maybe add a little ambience (reverb) to them. Once you\'ve decided on a setting batch convert everything.

Now go back into the editor and right click on each particular folder and select \"replace all in folder\"....

Find the folder that you batch converted and choose that one.

Your all done and have better sounding samples more to your liking!

Donnie

[MikeGraybill]

Thanks for the tip, donnie. I\'ve never attempted to do any serious editing of the samples I\'ve tried to use (at least pre performance stage.) After I\'d laid the basic tracks out, of course I would tweak and tweak for hrs to \"get it right\" voice to voice. But if you say it\'ll help, I\'ll edit as soon as I\'ve familiarized myself with the base samples.

Any other pointers as far as layering goes? Since I can\'t buy Garritan Strings chunk after chunck (broke college guy here), I was thinking about purchasing DD SStrings next, and maybe at the end of Sept, adding Ultimate Strings to layer with AO. Anybody have any examples of succeses with this?

(I\'m starting to think at this point, I should just take out a college loan and buy Garritan... But its hard to do when I\'ve still not heard any demo. -the old demos were posted and pulled before I got to hear \'em- I know everyone seems to think they\'re the best thing since Ghz cpu\'s, but I still feel I should \"hear\" a signifigant difference before I dish out that kind of money. Then again... I\'ll never be able to \"hear\" its usability... Ah well. This is the plight of the modern composer it seems.

Thanks
-Mike-

[nycbhh]

MichaelAngelo, there are new demos on the site now. I listened to them a few nights ago. They are short, but impressive.

Brad

[KingIdiot]

Donnie\'s suggeswtion is a great one. It should work with AO. There are libraries where this will NOT work, Since you can\'t export the wav files if they are compressed.

I find that layering the ensembles with even the AO solo strings helps alot and have heard use of Dan Dean over AO that is very inpressive. Basically this helps AO out because ther is pretty much no vibrato in the AO ensemble strings. Also Synth strings work with layering for some warmth

Also to remove the phasing that occurs with the mod wheel all the way up you can actually put a crossfade in to the instruments. AO out of the box doesn\'t actually crossfade. It jsut has volume control put on the louder layer of the instrument. If you create a crossfade to fade out the PP sample and fade in the FF sample, you can reduce the phasing that occurs....since it wont occur at all Mod Wheel Positions.

Also EQ, I find that a drop at about 1k with a modest Q and a tiny nudge back at about 4.5-5k with a tighter Q AND a slight nudge up in the low mids (or better yet a tape model or tube saturation effect) help warm up the sound.


About GOS. I LOVE THIS LIBRARY! but of course thats me http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif It allows me to create the most realistic string performances hands down.

Its very expressive and the amount of articulations is second to none. I\'ll still find myself doing some of the same things like EQ and possibly even layering (I love that fake HUGE sound). Also if anyone believes you get a more realistic sound out of samples if you dont EQ you\'ve been reading way too many old articles that misguided you. EQ is more than likely the ONLY way to get a more realistic mix IMO. As most libraries are recorded in different rooms different mic positions...etc...reverb alone wont fix all this.

and blah blah blah blah....

lets do more of this kind of stuff. Its fun to share ideas and it forces us (well some of us) to stop complaining and bitching about having to wait for the next big thing.


------------------
Really...I am an Idiot

[Tokyo Joe]

KingIdiot I agree, this has to be one of the most insightful discussions going on right now. I wish I could contribute some tips but I\'m kinda new to the orchestral arena.

Is there an EQ plugin in particular that you recommend so that I can try out of your tips?

[Bruce A. Richardson]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tokyo Joe:
KingIdiot I agree, this has to be one of the most insightful discussions going on right now. I wish I could contribute some tips but I\'m kinda new to the orchestral arena.

Is there an EQ plugin in particular that you recommend so that I can try out of your tips?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I\'m only an idiot, not the King idiot, but I use the EQ inside GigaStudio when I\'m rouging-in tracks in the MIDI domain. When I\'m ready to render them to disk, I remove all the plugins and render the tracks dry. I prefer getting things into the audio domain, so I can use Waves plugins. The FX in GigaStudio, unfortunately, are rather ratty sounding and hard to tweak...then again, I didn\'t buy GS for the effects, and at that latency, having any effects at all for roughing in is a blessing. They do help me hear things more in \"the mix I\'ll eventually have\" than just hearing everything dry, front, and center.

B.

[KingIdiot]

Bruce\'s idea is a grteat one. I\'ve done this in the past. It does help you \"get closer\" to the final mix (well not the reverbs)

As for Plug Ins. Ones that I use daily are Acoustic Mirror
Waves Gold bundle
Hyperprism (not that great but some worthwhile effects to add in on top of things)
and one of my ALL TIME FAVORITES Free Filter

The EQs in the wave Bundle are great
Acoustic Mirror has a \"workable\" analog tape impulse. Hyperprism has a couple of signal \"enhancers\"
And Free Filter is jsut plain GREAT when trying to mimic a mix, or a sound

one chain I\'ve used before is, EQ-reverb-Tube warmth-tape model-harmonic exciter/enhancer

Free Filter is tricky. I tend to go back AFTER I\'ve added Free filter to a whole mix and RE-EQ a particular part if something gets muddy.

Anyhow.. All of this is IF you have the time for it http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif


Another trick might be using resonant filters to accent low mids to make the istrument sound lie its becoming more resonant as it gets louder. If you add reverb to jsut the resonaing sound (band pass filter) you could possibly get a nice \"expressive\" sound when you put the reverb on top. I haven\'t tried ths yet because I really need to sit down and think of an easy way to do it (I have some ideas), but I thin oe could add some nice characteristics to instruments if layered in correctly.

------------------
Really...I am an Idiot

[MikeGraybill]

Wow, great idea King. I have yet to recieve the samples... I\'m thinking that labor day weekend might change the rules for delivery somewhat, but I\'m keeping my fingers crossed for a miracle \"sunday\" drop-off. (they\'ll be nice and cramped come tuesday I\'m sure) But as I\'m editing the .wav\'s in SForge, I think I\'ll throw some some band-passed verb into the sound and see what happens. Probably take a while to play with it, but in theory, I think it\'s a highly useful idea. -Thanks-

-Mike-