Phase

[RichardP]

In a recent recording (Pro Tools 8 on Intel Mac) I tried to do a full 180 pan but the Steinway (Pro version 3) seemed to play more out of phase than in. Obliged then to reduce the pan so that it could actually be heard in mono.


Is there a suggested max pan for Steinway and any thoughts re the above ?


Thanks

Richard P

[DPDAN]

I tried to do a full 180 pan but the Steinway (Pro version 3) seemed to play more out of phase than in.


Is there a suggested max pan for Steinway and any thoughts re the above ?


Thanks

Richard P

Hi Richard,
when you said a full 180 pan, you must mean that you simply reversed both channels. That is what a full 180 pan setting would do to a stereo source.
Reversing channels will not cause the piano to be out of phase, in fact, changing the pan settings will not cause a reversal of phase, regardless of where you set them.

What is your goal?
Dan

[RichardP]

Just meant full left and full right.

Using Under The Lid with settings Sustain Res 19 Sympathetic Res 48 but with Ambience Off.

I was adding a solo above a band in a jazz/pop setting. When hearing in mono the piano sound was significantly reduced because of the phase issue.
I was hoping other users might have some tricks in reducing phase in this scenario other than reducing width.

I suppose the obvious thing is to get rid of the Res and try again under version 4 - see if that helps.

Thanks

Richard P:)

[DPDAN]

It depends on how PT treats audio level when panned center, some DAW software and even real consoles slightly lower the gain when panned center. But, I realize you said you simply reversed them,... correct? I also assume when you listen in mono that you are listening to the stereo mix in mono?

I have never listened to the Steinway mono, but I will in a few minutes.
Another thing you may be hearing (but would not significantly alter the volume) is the mic positioning in the Steinway for the "Under Lid" perspective.... I have never been happy with the slightly out of phase positioning of the mics for that perspective because of this. It is evident that the Schoeps cardioid mics were pointing away from each other instead of inline or at least inwards to some degree, this is critical especially if they are not used as XY, hence apart from each other. I wish this was not the case but it's too late now.
Do you have athe midi file of the piano part so I can try it here in Digital Performer and Pro Tools?
Dan

[RichardP]

Many thanks,

Yes, I've been listening to the stereo source in mono. And have tried reversing the phase (which actually doesn't make much difference as the solo goes in and out of phase quite quickly).


I think your comments confirm what I'm hearing and , indeed, what the meters are telling me. Fairly disappointing at the moment for the Under The Lid is the only setting I can use for this style.

However, I'm going to do a few experiments. If no luck, I'll send you the midi file.

Cheers

Richard P

[DPDAN]

thanks Richard, I just want to help if I can :)
Dan

[RichardP]

Dan,

I've just tried inverting the right channel only, and now the instrument is back in phase and sounding less hollow. Should have tried that first but couldn't see how the out of phase could've happened in the box. Anyway much better now.

But many thanks for your help

Richard P

[DPDAN]

reversing the phase of just one channel will make it really bad,
the mics were not originally positioned that far off... just slightly ,,, hmmmm?

Dan

[RichardP]

It should do....but it doesn't.

The instrument is now in phase according to the meters.

Bit of an odd one this ?

I've just tried printing with version 4 with similar results.

FWIW, my system
Mac OSX 10.5.8, 2.31 GHZ, 3GB Ram, Pro Tools 8.0.1, 003 Factory, Steinway Pro V4,

I guess I could send part of the print. (which address ?)

Thanks

Richard P

[DPDAN]

Hi Richard,
dan at dankury dot com

:)

[RichardP]

Thanks will do.

I should also mention that the problem isn't in the bass register. The solo is in the high register only.

See what you make of the print.

Ta

Richard P

[Curt]

I use The Steinway in SONAR every day and do not have this problem. Curious... why you need to "pan"? Can't you plug the VST into a stereo track and just leave the pan control in the middle? I don't understand why you need to pull it into two MONO channels and pan them?

Maybe I don't understand the ProTools interface??
Curt

[RichardP]

Hi Curt,

Perhaps I didn't describe my issue effectively above.

However, using Under The Lid, try a solo passage of very quick arpeggios (with appropriate sustain) only between an octave above middle C and 3 octaves above middle C in full stereo (nothing below C4). If you don't end up with phasing issues you certainly don't have what I'm listening to/metering.

To reduce the phasing (from a metering view point) I have to change the panning to a fraction of full stereo. Fortunately I wouldn't want a big pan in jazz/pop band. I was simply asking for a recommended pad width because of this issue.

Still its disappointing as its the only perspective I can use in my style of music.

My thanks to DP Dan who has assisted me off forum.

Cheers

Richard P