Harsh interference between strings in GPO

[sylva]

Hello everyone!

Info in a nutshell: I have kinda big setup here. Section strings for each instrument category and soloists to give vibrato to, and color, the sections. Problem is that when in the same register, I have a very harsh, synthetic sound. This applied to Pocket Orchestra as well, where I have a much more modest setup of the same piece.

I tried just sections, same result. I tried less soloists, same result. I tried soloists only, same result. I tried to massage all or part of the instruments with Sonar's and Kontakt Player's effects. Same results.

Question: Is it time for Kirk Hunter's or some other library, or it's possible to get more from GPO, in spite of my limited skills? I mention here that with Pocket Orchestra I managed to get violins to play the Overture to La Traviata and The Flying Dutchman sounding quite pristine. However, when the violas come in all of the malfunctions cited above ensue.

Any opinion?

Thanks.

[rbowser-]

Hi, Sylva - Sorry to hear you're having a problem.

"...Problem is that when in the same register, I have a very harsh, synthetic sound..."

I can't know what you mean by this without hearing a sample. Your description is subjective and I may hear the same results differently, but at least it would be good to hear what you have and then maybe come up with some suggestions.

I always layer in soloists with section strings, and feel I get good results without the sound being at all "harsh" or "synthetic" sounding. But that's my own subjective reaction to what I do. Maybe you wouldn't care for the sound I have - impossible to tell.

The only thing I can think of after reading your post, is that you may not have a good balance between the instruments.

When layering in the soloists, I keep them at a substantially lower level than the section strings. And there's no way I can get that kind of balance through MIDI control alone. I set the soloists audio faders to a much lower level. I just use my ears to slowly move their faders up from the bottom until I can start hearing their presence just slightly. At that point they've added the detail I want in the wash of the section sound.

But there's no way those soloists can be at the same level.

Maybe that will help you try getting a different balance between your instruments, and maybe the sound will be more acceptable to you.

In answer to your question, is it time to look for other libraries - I would point out the many excellent sounding demos at the Garritan site done with just GPO. Many people have obviously achieved great sounding results with the tools at hand - So I reiterate that your current problem is due to an inadequate mix.

Randy B.

[robh]

I agree with Randy.

Post some samples and we could help steer you in the right direction. Also, it would probably help to let us know what you are using, i.e. notation software or sequencer.

Rob

[sylva]

Thank you both. Your recommendations are very welcome. I tried the mixing remedies you're suggesting. However, I think there is more room for trials. One more thing: I rigorously pay attention to processing levels in the Windows Task Manager. It looks as though the Athlon X2 5600 dual processor is becoming insufficient for the task. It's constantly at around 88-93% load. So the harshness may be due more to digital distortion rather than mix. Maybe both. Let me see what I can do to compile a sample. As for sequencer, I use Sonar Home Studio 6 XL.

Thanks, Sylva.

PS: I ordered a Phenom X4 940 with which my comp's MoBo will max out. I am not sure that SHS 6 XL will use all 4 processors, though.

[Haydn]

Another thing that can cause harshness is odd frequencies output by reverb plugins. What reverb are you using?

Jim

[sylva]

Thanks Haydn.

I am not using any reverb so far. Of course, everything is bone dry. Right now I am still building track content, that is, notes only. Will have to remix. I installed the Phenom 940 and SHS 6 XL works all four processors quite nicely. Now I can listen to everything. The processor goes up to about 40% usage, but with the intervention of the brass it's bound to reach into the fifties or even sixties. This amount of processing won't generate too many distortions. Nevertheless, playback is still harsh. Again, will have to play with mixing. The winds are absolutely pristine. Clear, clean and beautiful timbre, vibrato instruments playing in unison with non vibrato ones, giving the ensemble just as much as needed. Yeah, I listened to string demos and frankly, I have no idea how they were done. Well, people have a lot more skill than I, for one thing.

Thanks for the feedback. S.

[rbowser-]

Sylva, your among friends, so even though you're still working on this piece, and it's a work in progress, it would be helpful if you'd post a section of what you have. Everyone will understand it's not a finished work. I'm very good with both Sonar and GPO, so it's possible I could get more ideas of how to help out if I could hear what you have. Plenty of other people, including those already on this thread, have the same kind of expertise and could also help. We really need to hear for ourselves.

"...This amount of processing won't generate too many distortions..."

Distortion doesn't come from not having enough processing power, only from having the DBs too high at any point in the sound chain.

We can theorize about all sorts of things, including how it's possible that what you're describing as "harshness" is the un-real, brittle sound that instruments can have before they're sitting inside a reverb environment. But it's all theorizing before we hear something.

Please post a sample.

Randy

[sylva]

Today I hope to finish inserting about half of so of the piece. Only notes on a large mixing plate, many strings and wind soloists, but brass still missing, nothing worked out. Then I'll try to make a file. I may have a problem, in that on this forum I don't have rights to post attachments. How am I going to post my file? I only have dialup anyway, so it'll take time to upload.

Thanks, John.

[rbowser-]

Today I hope to finish inserting about half of so of the piece. Only notes on a large mixing plate, many strings and wind soloists, but brass still missing, nothing worked out. Then I'll try to make a file. I may have a problem, in that on this forum I don't have rights to post attachments. How am I going to post my file? I only have dialup anyway, so it'll take time to upload.

Thanks, John.
Hello again - I thought you had posted music on the Forum before. Wrong assumption on my part.

OK - well the ability to add attachments to posts is disabled for everyone, you're not alone in that. That's not the way we post our pictures and MP3s on these Forums.

You need to upload files to an online storage area like Box, which many of us use. Then you post the link to that file. That's how all the music is posted in The Listening Room.

I understand it's a hassle to do uploads and downloads with dial up, but hearing what you have so far could help us out in determining what the issues are.

Randy

[sylva]

Thanks Randy, always ready to help. I know I am among friends, that's why I trust to turn to you for help. I kind of had the intuition that my mix is not up to snuff. I'll try to upload to Box as soon as I can. Never done it before, so you'll have to bear with me. I didn't yet finish what I wanted today, but there's very little left (1.5 bars) and then I'll make it into a file. SHS doesn't make mp3 files, but there's a work around by exporting the file to Wavosaur which will make an mp3 file.

Just out of curiosity: would Sonar Studio 8.5 be running on XP64? SHS 6 does, but it doesn't recognize some important software, such as Kontakt Player and many of the soft synths I'd like to use. Because of this and other problems that Cakewalk didn't care to fix (though it promised that in their Readme file), it's pointless to attempt running Sonar in XP64. It would be helpful though, because then one would not have to freeze tracks in XP in order to run some big orchestration or running two bigger projects in the same time would not be a problem. In my case my computer croaks because of XP's memory limitations (not processor limitations anymore, which made it croak as well). John.

[JESimmons]

I'm running Sonar 8.5 on a Win 7, 64-bit machine. Everything seems to work so far, other than a tuning problem with the Dimension Pro synth.

If you're using a number of strings in a similar range, you may have more of a problem with the mix than the parts. Maybe pan them a bit away from one another, add a little reverb to some of the samples to put them more in the background.
John

[rbowser-]

I'm running Sonar 8.5 on a Win 7, 64-bit machine. Everything seems to work so far, other than a tuning problem with the Dimension Pro synth.

If you're using a number of strings in a similar range, you may have more of a problem with the mix than the parts. Maybe pan them a bit away from one another, add a little reverb to some of the samples to put them more in the background.
John
Hello, John - Yours is an interesting post.

I've noticed on the Cakewalk/Sonar Forum that people are generally having problems with the tuning of Dim Pro. Isn't that too bad? It has some great sounds developed for it, and it's the flagship synth/sample hybrid from Cakewalk, but there are definite problems with consistent tuning.

The rest of your post about strings - I'm not quite understanding. Strings in a similar range?---When orchestrating an actual string section, all the voices should be in rather different ranges, an octave or two apart from each other. Competition for frequency ranges shouldn't be an issue.

And the sections should most definitely always be panned apart from each other. That's a given. And the panning should be more than "a bit" different for each voice - But maybe you're talking about the situation of solo instruments doubling section instruments, and in those cases, I certainly agree that the soloists can't be sitting in precisely the same panning position. For instance, the lead violin for the 1st string section can be a bit closer to center, where we see the concert master positioned in a concert.

Panning of the strings can be done several different ways. I took to heart a concept I read some time ago from a professional engineer - He pointed out that the literal copying of the most common live orchestra positions doesn't really sound as good in a recording as one would like. Second strings are placed slightly to the left and a bit behind the first string section which is already on the left side of the stage (from the audience perspective.) But why do that in a recording?---- Following his advice, I always place my 2nd string section directly opposite from the 1st strings - so 1st may be approximately at 30 left, and the 2nd strings are 20 right. Cellos still sound nice in their traditional place half way to the right, and violas are certainly good at center, but to have the basses over to the right doesn't balance a recording very well. Again as per this engineer's advice, I pan the basses almost to dead center, separating the lead bass a bit by placing him closest to center.

Reverb--it's not really a choice. If you don't add reverb to strings or anything in a mix, then you're defeating any kind of illusion of a performance you're trying to create. Strings always need reverb, and need to be slightly lower in the mix than what our initial desire may be, after spending so much time carefully orchestrating them.

But I don't think any of that really speaks to Sylva's problems. I really feel he's over-intellectualizing his process and that he's hearing things which aren't actually audible to anyone else. That happens all the time when people are so wound up on their recording projects.

So once again, I'm hoping Sylva posts a work-in-progress for us to hear. It will speak directly to what his results are, and those of us with more experience will probably be able to help him more efficiently.

Randy B.

[Reegs]

Z3ta+ is designed to use Hermode tuning. I'm not sure if Dimension is equipped with it as well, but that could be the reason that things sound off.

[rbowser-]

Z3ta+ is designed to use Hermode tuning. I'm not sure if Dimension is equipped with it as well, but that could be the reason that things sound off.
Over at the Sonar Forum it seems to be rather established that some Dim Pro patches are just plain off - no fancy tuning issues, just some off programming apparently.

Randy

[pokeefe]

...Second strings are placed slightly to the left and a bit behind the first string section which is already on the left side of the stage (from the audience perspective.) But why do that in a recording?---- Following his advice, I always place my 2nd string section directly opposite from the 1st strings - so 1st may be approximately at 30 left, and the 2nd strings are 20 right. Cellos still sound nice in their traditional place half way to the right, and violas are certainly good at center, but to have the basses over to the right doesn't balance a recording very well.


Randy,

There are 2 common orchestral seating arrangements for strings. (I don't think the GPO doc mentions this.) The arrangement you mention - all violins left with the 2nd violins farther back - is, I think, not so common in the US now. A lot of US orchestras have gone back to a much older seating arrangement with the 2nd violins front right. Violas are right center - back from the 2nd violins. 'Cellos are left center - back from the 1st violins. I think the basses are far left, back from the 1st violins.
This arrangement matches your placement of the violins perfectly. The violas, cellos, and basses are sort of reverse your arrangement.

Luckily, we can move the GPO "players" around at will. :)

Pat

[sylva]

Everybody:

Sorry for being away for so long. I had a major computer disaster. Tried to update the bios to make the MoBo capable to handle the A2+ processors (Phenom II X4 940). I had to upgrade because the dual core Athlon 5600 was giving up on me. I tried this time to flash the Bios via windows, but it stalled and could not correct the eprom's content. Moral: NEVER EVEN THINK UPDATIND BIOS THROUGH WINDOWS. SUREST WAY IS DOS. I had to buy another chip with the newest bios program (it was inexpensive, $14). However, even now things are not 100% with my computer. For example, Kontakt Player 3.5 is giving an execution error at exit time from Sonar. Maybe it's an installation issue, remains to be seen. There are issues with Sonar. I dislike the cramped, dark toolbar icons. Some editing features, so useful in Sonar 6 have been abandoned. When in the Midi editor and I try to extend the value of a note beyound the visible window, the window won't scroll horizontally. Even though the attack is the same on certain notes, suddenly I get a large raise in volume. No, I have no anvelopes, yet. By default, in Sonar 6 the tracks had color markings in the traks' tools' (left) pane depending whether they were Audio or Midi. In 8.5 that was done away with(at least as a default). And many other issues I can't instantaneously recall. There are many cosmetic changes; I don't know whether they'll prove to be to the user's advantage. True, the windows are easier on the user's eye. But you have to stare at those cramped features. I needed the 64 bit platform because the memory limit imposed by WinXP precluded the usage of sufficient instrumentation. I have 8 gigs on my computer and memory went unused. It may be that I am still learning how to make programs work with Win7, which I begin to like. Win7 has far more depth than XP and things are more hidden. Microsoft professes that it wanted to make the user's task simpler and easier. But because of the cryptic approach I am not sure that they attained their goal.

Anyway, I have to remix some things before putting the piece's strings forth to your critical ears. I'll also heed your advice and try to implement it as far as possible.

Thanks all, S.

PS: I'll get back soon.

[robh]

Win7 has far more depth than XP and things are more hidden. Microsoft professes that it wanted to make the user's task simpler and easier. But because of the cryptic approach I am not sure that they attained their goal.
Wasn't it "your idea" ? :)

Rob

[sylva]

Well... surely, but I have years of professional computer activity under my belt, so it's not that difficult to find myself around it after all:) It was just a remark when I put myself into the average user's seat. In any case, in perusing OSs from Win95 onward, one finds that each edition was becoming less and less intuitive. IMHO, Win7 has many of the looks of Linux, and though the way they function is different, on the outside they're coming closer and closer by the day. Again, it's just my 2 cents. As I mentioned in my previous message, I had to go on to a 64 bit OS because of memory requirements in my orchestral setups. I am not the type who keeps after new developments for the sake of it. In the profession, you quickly learn to wait quite a bit after the dust and hype settled. Then you take the decision to deploy or not to. For ** me **, the problem with Win7 is the memory space it (literally) usurps. I say usurps, because if XP occupied about 250 MB when fully loaded, Win7 occupies about 920 MB! Why should an OS occupy that much only 2 versions later? Bloatware? Who am I to decide?

S.

[sylva]

Hi all!

Let me stray away from the above topic a bit, though the next question belongs to the big picture.

Since I went 64 bits processing, I obviously had to reinstall everything and more. Now I am experimenting with Kontakt Player 3.5 and 4 (ran out of money so can't yet upgrade to GPO 4, and JABB 3 is not here anyway). Kontakt Player 3.5 does a good job, except that when I get out of Sonar, it leaves me with a run time error. I thought I had memory problems, checked it but Memtest+ is showing no errors. So I thought the problem may come from the older Pata HDD that Kontakt resides on. Not that either, it's in perfect shape after deep scanning it. So it's time to uninstall Kontakt.

Is there any way to save the instrument setup (i.e. via Presets) in Kontakt Player 3.5, so that the next installation will automatically find all GPO and JABB instruments and thus the tedious job of loading and configuring them for the new install would be avoided?

Is my question intelligent and understanbable?

Thanks all, S.

[sylva]

Never mind, everybody.

I found the answer and it is Yes, via Presets. I just tried it. This is no discovery, I just had a hunch that it should work.

S.