Vibrato with Strad - to ones taste or not? Some thoughts.

[Raymond62]

To get a better vibrato on soloing with the Strad, I listened to some great violinconcerto's: Mozart nr.3, Dvorak Op.53, Brahms Op.77 and Tchaikovsky. Played by different soloists, resp. Emmy Verhey(Mozart & Dvorak), Borika van den Booren (Brahms) and Vladimir Spivakov(Tchaikovsky). From all concertos I took the slowest part.

Emmy Verhey uses the vibrato very fast and starts rather late with it, but it is there and wonderful. By the way she played the Stradivari in those concertos. Borika has slower vibrato and in my opinion a bit too much, while Vladimir tends a bit towards DPDAN's remark about "gispy like playing (some time ago)".

I think it is just a matter of "education of taste". That exaggerated vibrato DPDAN used in his Young Frankenstein, was just an example, but sometimes it fits the real orchestral pieces very well.

The Garritan Strad without some vibrato sounds "ugly" and harsh, too thin at the higher registers (even with some very modest vibrato). So we are obliged to apply some and nearly excessive vibrato to get that instrument sound like a violin(on longer notes).

Bearing in mind that a member of this forum acted against the (his words) "Parkinson" effect and after these concertos, I myself go for modest vibrato on shorter notes and more audible/noticeable on the longer notes, of course with the proper variations in speed and intensity (as DPDAN pointed out is normal in real life).

What do you think of that? Please comment on this, in particular violin players.

Raymond

[keithjfuller]

i'm no violin player, but i know what i like.

i tend to prefer the no vibrato start leading into a quicker and more prominent one as the volume increases.

and no vibrato sounds great on slow suspense/horror lines - listen to alan sylvestri's score of "what lies beneath" and you'll see what i mean.

[dermod]

A violin note without vibrato in the real world can also be a pretty dull sound, though doubtless its use historically is valid. It can be warmed up and enlivened by bowing more strongly and by the natural acoustic of the space. The solution to the issue you raise will probably be found in how you adjust these same factors when setting up the Garritan Strad, i.e. tinkering with the velocity and ambience settings. For me, the Strad is the best violin simulation yet and, though far from easy to handle, it is capable of more subtle effects and transitions than any other program I have heard.

[Raymond62]

Ambience, velocities and of course sound shaping using all sorts of CC's is very hard to do. I never had any other solo violin lib. so I can't say that this Strad is the best I've heard. It is a wonderful instrument, period!

But not as much with other GPO libraries, this is some "nobody knows the troubles I've heard" and it takes quite a lot of editing to get it the way it is supposed to be in the piece at hand, keeping in mind the overal mood and setting of the rest of the orchestral flow.

Raymond

[rbowser-]

Hi, Raymond - I hope you get to hear from a violin player or two, as you requested. Meanwhile, you're getting good feedback.

I'm glad to see you delving more in to The Strad. I remember quite a long time ago when, on your request, I re-recorded the data for the violin solo line in a piece you did for your anniversary. At that time the problem with what you originally had was that the vibrato was constant, instead of coming in after a notes have settled in.

What you describe as Emmy Verhey's style seems like the basic performance model to emulate. I would add that you definitely want to vary the vibrato speed, and avoid a lot of the fastest vibrato. It may be literally "correct," but can be intrusive when over-used, and for me, it's the one time when The Strad can verge on sounding more artificial. I would say that generally my After Touch values are way under 64, and that the AT data needs to vary the most during the longest notes, rather logically.

But there's no getting around the fact that The Strad does indeed require quite a bit of editing, as you said. The theory was that it could be played in real time, as per the great video demo that used to be posted (and is still up at You Tube). But most people find it daunting to control the instrument well enough with live playing.

The main issue that makes The Strad tricky is that it's overly sensitive to velocity, as has been pointed out many times. The Gofriller Cello is programmed in much the same way, but the velocity curve is less severe, making that instrument easier to control.

I invariably need to hand edit many of the velocity values in a Strad line, especially the velocity of the first note in a passage. It's very easy to get into that vigorous strong attack even when one didn't intend having it. And of course it's easy to get into that wildly sweeping portamento area which has to be avoided. A judicious use of port can add sweetness at appropriate moments, and of course some styles need more of that sort of thing.

Varying the vibrato rate, recording both the initial CC11 and CC1 values live, and careful editing of velocity values - those are my main tips about using The Strad.

Randy

[Raymond62]

Thanks folks,

I am working also with the following tutorial of DPDAN:

http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/showpost.php?p=617311&postcount=3

Raymond

[rbowser-]

Thanks folks,

I am working also with the following tutorial of DPDAN:

http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/showpost.php?p=617311&postcount=3

Raymond
It's a very nice tute, thanks for reminding us of it, Raymond. Looks like DPDAN has covered what it takes to make The Strad sing.

Randy

[Fabio]

Best thing is you find a friend playing Violin and sit beside him and look while listening.

All the answers arrive without any talk.

If you have no friends playing violin, then find some videos (e.g. Youtube, or solo concert on DVD) and again while listening LOOK!

;)

The normal life say some vibrato is simply impossible to do different because of the time you have, the position of your hand, and a natural musical feeling (e.g. low vibrato on short notes, you simply have no time to do it heavy, very low or no vibrato on slide, fast legato passages etc. that's more or less logical/obvious).

The style and habits rule the long notes, but still some natural need exist (e.g. you have to press the finger on the string and then finding the position start moving faster. that's why usually the intensity is not immediately exploited, disregarding the final level the player will reach).

Last but not least increasing the speed, the intensity decrease (because to move faster, it's hard you can move up and down on the string so much) and viceversa.

Starting from those technical borders, the rest yes is a matter of style and taste.

But the problem with a virtual Violin is that you may program unnatural things (using controllers in a way a player can't play, the sounds is immediately appearing so fake or harsh). That's why:
- I asked Giorgio for programming some pre-designed real vibrato models for beginners or for simple help (like he did consulting for Finale Human playback)
- You have to study real sound and real players to program Strad correctly. Once you do, still the realism of it is unparalleled by any actual VI disregarding price. And some ugly acid sounds of it magically disappear!

[Raymond62]

Good morning friends,

I applied all info you gave me, including the data I'd found on Internet and the tutorial of DPDAN. Repeatedly I listened to my "creation" and the solo parts of those violinconcertos I told you about.

It is the solo part from my Symphony, which is a very dramatic piece, with lots and lots of longer held notes, "molto espressione" is the word.

I can't imagine what to do next, so enlighten me with your valuable comments.

I edited this file, cutting all "non-solo" gaps to give you some condensed form.

Here it is (http://www.box.net/shared/static/aa5j7x2ux7.mp3)


Greetings,

Raymond

[Fabio]

a part from a strange effect (the sound seems sometime like doubled by a flute or a clarinet...if it's not your will, maybe the attack is a little too low) the violin vibrato is not so bad, but I would expect a little speed acceleration, (strad does it with aftertouch I suppose you know it) reaching relatively soon a slightly faster vibrato in real "default" practice.

By the way for special effect, you can play with vibrato speed in the score, mentioning that you ask for heavy and slow vibrato. The player is then expected to follow your notes and play exactly as you recorded it now.

[Raymond62]

Fabio, thanks. Will work on that.

Raymond

[DPDAN]

Hi Raymond,
Many of the note transitions in your MP3 have no portamento at all, and while this low velocity portamenti is something that is always overused by most, you have been too careful, so much, that when there is intended portamento, it seems too much, it's all relative. Another thing I heard was many of the notes are detached, but in those lines,, (at least to me) they should be legato, and should have some slight imperfection of pitch before the note settles into it's intended pitch. Sometimes this has to be drawn in as pitch-bend. See the pitch data in Young Frankenstein at around 6 seconds and again at :14, :31, :43.

A lot of times, the beginning note at many phrases should ramp up (cc11) as opposed to the same volume as before. Which brings up the next point as I am still listening. There seems to be virtually no dynamic expression (volume). Remember, regardless of how excessively ridiculous the data looks, it has to be whatever it takes to make the sound change in the direction that you desire.

As far as vibrato speed is concerned, here is what I have learned from listening and watching string players, (the best advice given here so far by Fabio!) Most string players pretty much have a vibrato speed that they are comfortable with, and one that they can play with consistency.

Usually, the speed of the vibrato increases significantly, and rather suddenly at the end of a note or phrase when the player is getting emotionally excited or attached to the piece. Another common thing that also happens while the vibrato speed is being increased is the vibrato intensity (modwheel). This happens because the players hand begins to wabble back and forth more wildly, creating more distance above and below the fingered pitch.

TIP: I always set the vibrato rate in the Kontakt player to 50. This is just my preference.

When I use bow change (cc64) I usually draw in pitch-bend to raise the pitch during the bow change sound. When this bow change feature was designed and tweaked, I know that Giorgio understood that a common observance of a bow change was a slight drop in pitch as the bow reverses, usually because there is more pressure on the bow at the "new" direction, but the Strad has WAY TOO MUCH pitch drop......., so, we must do whatever it takes to overcome that weakness in the design to make the flatness virtually disappear with pitch-bend, or better yet, draw a serious drop in cc11 expression, (a skinny V). This can be seen in the midi file of Young Frankenstein.

Just some ideas that I wanted to offer as free advice.

Another observation in this MP3 of yours is that your Strad will sound much better in context, as all of our "midi" instruments do.

I really admire you Raymond for posting and asking advice, I never feel like an expert on these things, but can only offer what I have taught myself through the years by observing the real thing. I suppose recording these musicians all these years has actually been my training.

I trust this has been helpful. :)
Dan

[Raymond62]

I went back to this tutorial:

http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/showpost.php?p=434223&postcount=1


Raymond

[Raymond62]

Dan,

I listened to my new CD, recorded recently(2009), of Beethoven's Violinconcerto, with Janine Jansen. She is great, no doubt about that. I also listened to some Violinconcertos of Paganini. There is no greater contrast imaginable.

May I suggest that the vibrato of string players in an orchestra is somewhat different from the soloist?

I am not completely sure about that, have to do some more listening, but my first impression is that the soloist is "performing his expression at his own will" - of course together with the orchestra - but still it is his/here's own interpretation of the solo part, which can be completely different from the bowing techniques those "slave violin players" are doing.

Raymond

[Raymond62]

By the way, I completely forgot playing on "open strings", which by nature don't have fingered vibrato or pitchbend data. OK, it is up to the composer AND performer to decide where to play those "open strings", but it is quite important NOT to forget those.

Raymond

[keithjfuller]

on a guitar if i want vibrato on the low E, i play it and do the vibrato on the E an octave up on the A string.

I think violinists do this as well. its not the same, but it has a nice sound.

[Raymond62]

on a guitar if i want vibrato on the low E, i play it and do the vibrato on the E an octave up on the A string.

I think violinists do this as well. its not the same, but it has a nice sound.

Is this a challenge for violinists or not? Or is it simply not done? Come on guys.

Raymond

[Jeannot Welter]

It is done on the violin.
Most famous example:
the first note of Bruch's violin concerto is a g on an empty string.

JW

[Raymond62]

It is done on the violin.
Most famous example:
the first note of Bruch's violin concerto is a g on an empty string.

JW

Thanks. I have that concerto, so today I will check it.

Raymond

[Raymond62]

Keith, Dermod, Randy, Fabio, DPDAN, Jeannot, all of you many thanks. The last days I worked hard to make "it happen" and I am sure I've got it. Not only your advices applied to that solo Strad, but also to the orchestra.

I amended a lot in the balance and together with the new rendered solo strad the piece sounds a lot better than before, also thanks to Altiverb. Today I searched my collection of CD's to find a piece with similar moods and music and found that the Symphony nr. 1 of Cesar Franck suited well.

So I compared thru my KVK 8 Rokits both performances, first the Franck Symphony played by the Arnhem Philharmonic Orchestra, conducted by Roberto Benzi and recorded 1995, followed by the first part of my Symphony (also in D minor), conducted by me and played by the famous Garritan Personal Orchestra (no SAM brasses!), recorded at the TODD-AO .... forgot the full name (Altiverb).

Already being busy with the 2nd and 3rd part (the 4th part has to wait a little), all you have teached me will be incorporated. Late March I can present this "massive" 55 minutes work to the outer world.

I hope you don't have too much to say about this piece. Any further new developments/corrections must wait until the next project, a Violin Concerto (I think).

Symphony part 1 - Adagio con expressione (http://www.box.net/shared/static/kgp4pubtc4.mp3) with the solo Stradivari.

Enjoying a nice weekend (hoping that you guys survive that snow storm overthere),

Raymond

[Jeannot Welter]

Raymond,

Very nice work!
I am looking forward to the other movements.

One observation:
Should that not be "adagio con espressione"?

Fabio, can you help out?

JW

[Raymond62]

Raymond,

Very nice work!
I am looking forward to the other movements.

One observation:
Should that not be "adagio con espressione"?

Fabio, can you help out?

JW

Yes, you are right. In Dutch (my language) that Italian word is spelled as Expr..... so the error was easily made.

At the score I have it spelled the Italian way,

Raymond

[Fabio]

Yep, "espressione" is the right spelling. ;)

Actually it's a female word (Italian still has lot of male, female and neutral noons, all with the right adjectives), then "molto espressione" is not correct in natural Italian. (molto, due to final "o" is for male or neutral ).

You may say "molta espressione" or "molto espressivo"

(meaning "lot of expression" the first and "very expressive" the second one).

But to be honest, my English spelling and phrasing are even worse, sometime I guess...:p, then no problem!

[pokeefe]

Regardless of the spelling it's a beautiful piece of music.

Pat

[Sheridan]

I've never used the Strad so I don't have any technical advice related to it, but for performance in general, I prefer a mostly non-vibrato performance for most notes in pieces written before the early 20th century. Today's common practice of a constant vibrato didn't come into popular acceptance until around the 1920's. If you listen to the early recordings made at the very beginning of the 20th century (from around 1900-1910) by the last generation of 19th century romantics, what I've found is that you'll hear a non-vibrato sound for most notes. It wasn't until you had the 20th century reaction by the modernist against the "excesses" of the romantics that constant vibrato became standard. The modernist preferred the constant vibrato because they thought that all notes should be equally stressed. The romantics too thought that notes should be equally stressed which gave way to the rise of things like seamless legato in the early 19th century but they apparently didn't apply this logic to vibrato like the modernists did.

I'm not familiar with the specifics of vibrato use in 19th century but for 17th and 18th century music, you'll find in treatises that vibrato was considered to be an ornament used mostly on certain long notes. This practice fits in well with the pre 19th century idea of "good" and "bad" notes called the beat hierarchy.

I don't advocate mostly non-vibrato playing simply for historical authenticity but because it makes sense for the music once you understand the philosophy behind the music. :)

[Raymond62]

Sheridan, thank you for this explanation. Most useful. When I compare older CD recordings with the newer ones, I belief that the younger generation violinists prefer to delay the vibrato to the end of the note much more than with earlier recordings.

I have three recordings of Beethoven's violinconcerto, one with Menuhin, one with Emmy Verhey and the last one with Janine Jansen. In the slower part I can hear the differences very clearly. From Menuhin to Jansen less vibrato at the beginning of the notes and less "steep slopes" at the vibrato. Jansen does things very subtle, it is there, but hardly noticeable. It makes the sound very pure, clear and depending on the musical context nicer for my ears.

Raymond

[vic_france]

Really beautiful piece of music, Raymond ... bravo! :)
I'd just like to add that, IMHO, Dan's analysis of the Strad performance is 100% "spot-on"!
Did you actually play it, or was it step-entered? (if the latter, I really recommend that you print it out, then play it live into your sequencer, using expression pedal and modwheel extensively.. even "too much", for starters... you can always re-edit afterwards.)

[Raymond62]

Really beautiful piece of music, Raymond ... bravo! :)
I'd just like to add that, IMHO, Dan's analysis of the Strad performance is 100% "spot-on"!

Yes, he is, but sometimes I don't agree with him. Matter of taste, different experiences and different ears. As a pianist playing with string players (violin& cello) I myself wanted to "master" to a certain degree the cello. So I took lessons, but due to a very demanding ICT-job/-project at that time I had to quit those lessons after two years. So, I am not complete unaware of the strength (and weakness) of vibrato. A cello is completely different from a violin, but those lessons learned me to "educate my listening". Another point is, how to do that in MIDI. Those technical translations are my weakness.


Did you actually play it, or was it step-entered? (if the latter, I really recommend that you print it out, then play it live into your sequencer, using expression pedal and modwheel extensively.. even "too much", for starters... you can always re-edit afterwards.)No, I handled every single note by hand, in other words, I added those CC#x's by hand, drawing them with the mouse in SONAR. Amended them a thousand times until this result (meanwhile I altered some of them after intensive listening myself). I do have an expression pedal, but my "footworks" aren't that coordinated with the notes as with my hands (with the mouse).

Thank you for your compliment about the piece itself. It is part of a four part symphony picturing various chapters from The Revelations.

Right now I am working on the second part, which will be finished tonight. Next week I'll hope to have finished all 4 parts (already written and rendered in the past but not as good as I had in mind). A lot of tweaking has to be done to make it "shine".

This whole thing had cost me about a year to do, filled with experiments, altering the score (minor alterations!), balancing the instruments, getting the right reverbs (since I have Altiverb a new world has entered!!!!!), etc. It is about time to stop this project and go on with another composition, I have in mind.

Have a nice weekend, with regards,

Raymond