Now what about those full-blast ANVILS ?!?

[Maarten Spruijt]

Now, everybody knows there still aren\'t any useable (Hollywood-size) anvil samples out there (or here). There have been other topics about this, but it\'s time for a small reminder I think ;-)

Donnie, I know there are anvil samples on your Ultimate Orchestral Percussion library, but they just sound too tiny (actually, like little tin cans!), sorry, though I totally believe you when you say that it\'s the normal, acoustic sound of an anvil in a hall and that Hollywood anvils are sound processed for that well-known Titanic-Matrix anvil sound!

But hey, why can\'t anybody just give us processed anvil samples then? That\'s what the end user wants, isn\'t it?

I mean, there must be somebody out there reading these forums PLUS knowing how the desired anvil sound is created?

Ofcourse, this post doesn\'t have to be applied to anvils only - just replace the word \'anvil\' and \'anvils\' by any large sounding percussion sound!

Maarten


------------------
( www.maartenspruijt.com (\"http://www.maartenspruijt.com\") )
ICQ: 37834976

[Thomas_J]

Agreed Maarten. However Donnie is wrong. Donnie, have you actually tried hitting the anvil with a hammer in a large orchestral hall? Sure, you get that sound if you mic it 2 feet away, but to really capture the high pitched anvil \"cling\" you need to take your mics much farther away. This is just another example of how important mic placement and hall ambience is.
Most anvils in \"hollywood\" scores are probably post-processed with reverb and eq (and so are most instruments as well), but there are limits to how much one can \"repair\" a bad sound. I could never imagine being able to get that \"anvil hit\" from UOP to sound like a \"hollywood anvil\". I\'d love for you to prove me wrong though. It sounds flat and, yes, a bit like a tincan. This is sad though since it is a very sought after percussion effect.

Maarten, do not forget that they sometimes have tubular bells struck at ff, with a quick dampening of the hand, on top of the anvil hit. This broadens the sound, but it\'s still no good if you haven\'t got good samples to work with.

Thomas

[Simon Ravn]

I have done what I believe is an OK metallic hit sound made up from 3 different metallic \"clonks\" I got from a friend. EQ´ed and reverb´ed, certainly a lot closer to the \"Matrix sound\" than the present anvil sounds would do. I think that pretty much any metallic sounds could create this effect - the sounds I work with are not especially wellsounding when you hear them dry http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

[Thomas_J]

Yupp, I think you are right Simon, wanna share? or let us listen to them in a context?

Thomas

[Michiel Post]

I recorded over a 100 anvil samples in the past years. I worked as a sound designer for the Dutch Opera House and they did Wagners Das Rheingold. There are some pieces in the opera where over 22 anvils are prescribed in the score. Further Wagner prescribed anvils in 3 octaves: High, Mid and Low.

So I went out to record anvils everywhere I could find them. I also found that the anvil sound is mainly dependent on the recorded amount of \'space\'. I mean a dry anvil sounds like crap. This made me go out with the anvil and bring it to all kind of reverberant places in the Dutch Opera House and record the anvils (we bought 3 of them) in different spaces. All these recordings resulted in a huge amount of anvil-samples and \'anvil-related\' samples. I recorded the fork of a fork-truck, I recorded the screw of a huge ship, I recorded large metal object like train rails etc. I haven\'t brought these anvil samples in a commercial library, yet.

For those of you really interested please email me privately at mpost@xs4all.nl

Michiel Post
Post Audio Media

[Simon Ravn]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Thomas_J:
Yupp, I think you are right Simon, wanna share? or let us listen to them in a context?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sure I\'ll put up a little mp3 of it tonight. I can\'t show it in context yet because I am using a certain as of yet unreleased library in the piece... http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

[Chadwick]

Don\'t forget to include the midi file and a quicktime of you doing the recording http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif

[donnie]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Thomas_J:
Agreed Maarten. However Donnie is wrong. Donnie, have you actually tried hitting the anvil with a hammer in a large orchestral hall? Sure, you get that sound if you mic it 2 feet away, but to really capture the high pitched anvil \"cling\" you need to take your mics much farther away. This is just another example of how important mic placement and hall ambience is.
Most anvils in \"hollywood\" scores are probably post-processed with reverb and eq (and so are most instruments as well), but there are limits to how much one can \"repair\" a bad sound. I could never imagine being able to get that \"anvil hit\" from UOP to sound like a \"hollywood anvil\". I\'d love for you to prove me wrong though. It sounds flat and, yes, a bit like a tincan. This is sad though since it is a very sought after percussion effect.

Maarten, do not forget that they sometimes have tubular bells struck at ff, with a quick dampening of the hand, on top of the anvil hit. This broadens the sound, but it\'s still no good if you haven\'t got good samples to work with.

Thomas<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Thomas, tell you what...when you start working on your doctorate in percussion then you can tell me what an anvil is susposed to sound like. The one on UOP is ONE anvil. As stated above there is a limitless number of sounds you can get from anvils. The one on UOP hardly sounds like a \"tin can\". Besides I thought you didn\'t own it.....

Thats the problem with some composers. They \"think\" they know what something is susposed to sound like from what they hear in a movie theatre. Thats not always the case. In fact is hardly ever the case in the symphony hall.

Anyway, I can assure you that whats coming has \"a few\" more choices! http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif

Donnie

[donnie]

Heres a small ex. of what I\'m talking about....
http://www.dssoundware.com/sounds/ANVILS.mp3 (\"http://www.dssoundware.com/sounds/ANVILS.mp3\")

Donnie

[Maarten Spruijt]

Donnie, I am a percussionist myself (no doctorate, but played a lot of different percussion in an orchestra for almost 7 years). I am absolutely sure you know best what an anvil is and sounds like in a normal situation. Ofcourse I know as well as you that most percussion instruments can sound VERY different in filmmusic than in concert music. The problem is that about all people that walk these forums have an interested in film music, not or less in concert music.

So, when we hear a great percussion hit sound on a soundtrack, then on another, and another, and it is told that it\'s an anvil, it is THAT sound we want. Even if it is NOT a normal concert anvil!

I think it is common knowlegde that a lot of composers using technology today write from a \"sound\" and \"production\" point of view, NOT from a more \"classical\", instrument-orientated point of view. If that\'s a good or a bad thing, I leave up to other people to talk about. What I\'m saying is that they don\'t care if it isn\'t a real anvil they have as a sample, as long as it sounds like they\'re used to hear it on the commercial soundtracks. It is that simple, and twisted.

Do you see what I\'m trying to make clear?

Now this thread could go the same way as Thomas_J\'s thread about his brass samples, so let\'s not go that way!

INSTEAD, LET\'S FOCUS ON HOW WE C-A-N ACHIEVE THE FILM MUSIC-SOUND PEOPLE ARE LOOKING FOR MORE IN GENERAL - both in percussion as in other instruments perhaps.

Donnie, if you got the soundtracks, I would very much like you to listen to the following spots, where to my knowledge a (Hollywood!) anvil is being used, in combination ofcourse with other hit percussion:

- The Matrix (original score): track 1, 2:48
- The Matrix (original score): track 5, 1:24
I think in both these cases there is a larger anvil being struck every other beat, and a smaller anvil playing 16ths.

- Back to Titanic: track 6, 3:29 and on
- Back to Titanic, track 6, 5:09

Maarten

------------------
( www.maartenspruijt.com (\"http://www.maartenspruijt.com\") )
ICQ: 37834976

[Simon Ravn]

Hear hear! Lets get those filmscore anvils rolling:-) I am also interested in what instrument is used as the metallic background in the \'Children in chains\' (I am not sure about the title of that track, I am at work now, cant check it) track on Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom. Thats a sound I\'d like for sure!

[Thomas_J]

I have no idea what that is Simon, but my guess would be a dampened triangle (same as in the matrix piece that Maarten is talking about). Donnie should know this.

Donnie, I don\'t think I need a doctorate in order to tell what an anvil sounds like in a hall. I\'m sure it can sound like the one on your discs (which you are absolutely correct, I don\'t own). I have heard the sample (a friend sent an mp3) and while a tincan is probably an overstatement, it doesn\'t sound at all like a usable anvil to me. But that demo sounds pretty good.

Thomas

[Michiel Post]

Hi folks, this forum is turning into a dangerous place to share opinions it seems.
It also turns out that anvil samples really welcomed by lots of people.More than I ever imagined! I never thought these samples would ever turn out to be of
interest for anyone else but myself.
Since there is a demand, I made a disc with my anvils samples and related samples in Giga and WAV format.
There are over a 125 samples on it.
You can listen to the small demo files I
put on my website: http://www.postaudiomedia.com/anvil1.mp3 (\"http://www.postaudiomedia.com/anvil1.mp3\") http://www.postaudiomedia.com/anvil2.mp3 (\"http://www.postaudiomedia.com/anvil2.mp3\")

When you follow the link to my on-line shop on my home page www.postaudiomedia.com (\"http://www.postaudiomedia.com\") (Post Audio Media On-line store) you see the disc I made under the category \'other\'. The price is $ US 45. It\'s available right now!

Michiel Post
Post Audio Media

[Maarten Spruijt]

I think Simon is talking about the track \"Slave Children\'s Crusade\" (similar name). That track has more interesting \"metal hitting\" in it!

Maarten

------------------
( www.maartenspruijt.com (\"http://www.maartenspruijt.com\") )
ICQ: 37834976

[Simon Ravn]

Maarten, yes that is definitely it (although I am STILL at work and cant check it out:-)).

Michiel, is there a way to download these samples, instead of having them sent on a disc, if I am interested in buying them? Because postage from the US will probably be almost as much as the CD itself http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

[Michiel Post]

Hi Simon,

You wrote: is there a way to download these samples, instead of having them sent on a disc, if I am interested in buying them? Because postage from the US will probably be almost as much as the CD itself

The price of the cd includes postage worldwide. Besides I don\'t have a service that allows me to sell individual samples.
You might have a look at www.sound-effects-library.com (\"http://www.sound-effects-library.com\") but I don\'t think they have anvils in 25 colors and sizes!

Cheers,
Michiel

[Simon Ravn]

OK Michiel, cool! And about individual samples, that wasn\'t what I meant. Of course I\'d want the whole collection.

[Simon Ravn]

OK I put up my \'anvils\', which aren\'t anvils at all probably. 3 and 4 \'clonks\' put together, EQ\'ed and with reverb. Listening to Michiel and Donnies anvils, I suspect you could get something similar from those.
http://www.melomaniac.dk/MP3/Metal1.mp3 (\"http://www.melomaniac.dk/MP3/Metal1.mp3\")
http://www.melomaniac.dk/MP3/Metal1.mp3 (\"http://www.melomaniac.dk/MP3/Metal1.mp3\")

[donnie]

Micheal,

Are you sure those are anvils? They sound like cowbells and agogo bells.

Donnie

[donnie]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Simon Ravn:
OK I put up my \'anvils\', which aren\'t anvils at all probably. 3 and 4 \'clonks\' put together, EQ\'ed and with reverb. Listening to Michiel and Donnies anvils, I suspect you could get something similar from those.
http://www.melomaniac.dk/MP3/Metal1.mp3 (\"http://www.melomaniac.dk/MP3/Metal1.mp3\")


Simon,

I think they sound very good!

Donnie
http://www.melomaniac.dk/MP3/Metal1.mp3 (\"http://www.melomaniac.dk/MP3/Metal1.mp3\")
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Michiel Post]

Hi Donnie,
Cowbells & agogo bells? You\'re not kidding?
I can tell you these sounds are all anvils (struck at different positions and with different tools, some with hammers, some with small metal sticks).

I just played a couple of the 50 samples here. Let me make a new sound bit tomorrow with the more heavy strikes. Seems to me most people actually seek the fx-processing sound more than the actual anvil sound.
I\'ll include some samples with effects also.
Michiel

[Aenigma]

I wonder if those who are looking for a loud hollywood anvil sound, are really wanting a brake drum sound. They seem to give off a lower pitched, and isn\'t so much of a \"tink\" sound, as it is a \"clank\" sound -- if that makes a bit of sense to anyone besides me.

I know nothing about recording techniques, but I wonder if because a brake drum has a lower pitch, and fewer very high harmonics, if it could be safely recorded louder (hit harder) than you could with a true anvil.

[Michiel Post]

When you listen to Simon\'s mp3 you hear a quite low sound (indeed more a \'dank\') not at all as high as the real anvils. The sounds on Donnies demo are also high and \'shreeky\'. One of the sounds I used that worked very well was a combination of an anvil, a large ship propellor, and some piece a train rail (transposed an octave down).
Gosh...all these things you have to improvise do make a little creative sound design...
Michiel

[Michiel Post]

Listen to this: http://www.postaudiomedia.com/anvil3.mp3 (\"http://www.postaudiomedia.com/anvil3.mp3\")

You hear several of the anvils, processed with typically too much NFX reverb. I\'m combining samples to build up a giant anvil effect.
I think this could work in a film score. The reverb quality isn\'t good enough. Actually I would use a good Lexicon unit.
Michiel

[Thomas_J]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by donnie:
Micheal,

Are you sure those are anvils? They sound like cowbells and agogo bells.

Donnie<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So much for that Doctorate huh, Donnie?

Great examples Michiel, I think I could find some useful samples in your collection. I think $45 is a little too expensive though. $20 would be a more welcomed price. Judging from the first two mp3\'s you posted, I would say the sound quality is a little less than satisfying (seemed a little better in the third example). Is this due to the mp3 encoding or is it the way these samples sound? You should post mp3 demos in 192/256 k bitrate.

Bottom line. Good sounds. Exactly what we are looking for (Without the reverb) but are they struck at multiple velocities and are there left/right hand samples? How close did you record them? Any hall recordings with natural reverb decay?

Thanks for your time,
Thomas

[Michiel Post]

Hi Thomas,
Thanks for the compliment! Few remarks.
One about sound quality. Everything is recorded with two 4006 B&K (now DPA) omni microphones in very quiet surroundings and studio\'s, sometime a theatre hall. Signal went trough great pre-amps in my portable TASCAM DAT (is that TASCAM who owns Nemesys now?...) The sound quality is certainly satisfying. Imagine the sound level of an anvil is high. Even given a serious distance from the source the sound level remains strong enough to cause clipping of the amp and recorded equipment. The samples contain very high impact impulses. Some were recorded at several velocities. Others not. The are no left hand/ right hand samples. The recording took place before the gigaX-age.
That latest mp3 was 128 k bitrate, the first even was lower. The poor sound quality of my mp3\'s is partly to keep illegal activities (like pirates) to a minimum, and partly caused by the NFX reverb that I used to swamp the samples in \"space\".
The first 2 mp3\'s were actually not good demo\'s at all (I have even removed the first one). Consider the latest demo (http://www.postaudiomedia.com/anvil3.mp3 )the only one.
Price is of the cd is a little high!? OK, lets start negociating the price then. I think these samples are worth more than $ 25. I believe $40 to be reasonable price for the cd incl shipping. The cost for burning the cd,printing the labels, inlay etc have to be taken into account. The price includes shipping costs. After all I don\'t expect to sell 100\'s of copies. Maybe 10 in a year... I may change the price down to $30 if more people think that would be a suited price. This is almost becoming a \"cd-library on demand\" so to speak.
Michiel

[Gulliver]

I think, for one thing, the Anvils in sci-fi/action film scores are rarely exposed by themselves as a heavy percussive effect because the sound is still bright and metallic, hardly any low-end. If you get a chance to hear the score to Aliens, the sequel, you can hear numerous examples of heavy percussion hits combining anvils, harp crashes and other kitchen effects. Greig McRitchie\'s orchestration on that score is a fanstastic study tool, he pulled out all the stops. I believe making a good quality Anvil sample is only the first step, you\'ll have to combine the sound (depending on what you are trying to achieve) inorder to get the heavy hits you hear in film music.

Ciao,
Faisal.

[Maarten Spruijt]

Absolutely true Gullivan!

------------------
( www.maartenspruijt.com (\"http://www.maartenspruijt.com\") )
ICQ: 37834976

[Thomas_J]

Yeah a very important fact there, Gulliver! It\'s part of the orchestration. I like to think of the percussion ensemble as any other instrument group. They should cover all (or most) of the frequency register. In a typical percussion \"tutti\" part, the anvil would be like the piccolo flute. In a woodwind tutti the piccolo would add a lot to the sound, even though the piccolo alone would sound thin and weak.

This is why I search that anvil sound. It covers the high frequencies in a very powerful way. Much more than a triangle strike anyway http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif and at $30 your samples would be a welcomed addition to my sample pool. It\'s not like I\'m going to use all those 150 samples anyway (or how many did you say you had?).

Thomas

[donnie]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Thomas_J:
Yeah a very important fact there, Gulliver! It\'s part of the orchestration. I like to think of the percussion ensemble as any other instrument group. They should cover all (or most) of the frequency register. In a typical percussion \"tutti\" part, the anvil would be like the piccolo flute. In a woodwind tutti the piccolo would add a lot to the sound, even though the piccolo alone would sound thin and weak.

This is why I search that anvil sound. It covers the high frequencies in a very powerful way. Much more than a triangle strike anyway http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif and at $30 your samples would be a welcomed addition to my sample pool. It\'s not like I\'m going to use all those 150 samples anyway (or how many did you say you had?).

Thomas<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why are you beating this guy up over $45 for over 150 samples??? Time=money!

Donnie

[Munsie]

Agreed, $45.00 for 150 samples is more than fair. Keep it at $45.00. If they need an anvil, they\'ll buy it. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

[Thomas_J]

Hehe okey I guess I\'m a cheapass then http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

Thomas