Money Back Guarantee?

[Munsie]

I think sample cd producers should start offering a \"money back guarantee\". This would promote consumer confidence in the product. I program computer software for a living, I have to offer a money back guarantee for my products. Why shouldn\'t sample producers offer the same quality assurance? As far as the \"piracy\" issues goes, it\'s already happening. There is nothing you can do about it. What serious musician would put out commercial efforts with non-licensed samples anyway? I get to try out microphones, speakers, etc., all other aspects of my home studio with product guarantees, why not my samples?!? Let the flames begin. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

[Munsie]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Simon Ravn:
If sample developers offered this, I am sure we\'d see a big increase in \'sales\': People buying the library, copying it, getting the money back.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have to disagree, those that are buying these libraries in the 200$-600$ range are not pirates, they are professional musicians. Why would they risk selling their music with non-licensed samples? Users that want to get the samples for free are doing it right now as we speak, they wouldn\'t pay for it at any price.

[KingIdiot]

I agree with Simon. Id expect more people to beleive that buying and copying and returning isn\'t as illegal as copying and using from a friend. *I* know there isn\'t a difference regarding legality, but to many people it would seem less legal. Also it would offer an option to people who aren\'t in \"pirating circles\", for getting \"free\" libraries. Even guatanteed to getting the library for free if they return it. Rather than buying from some overseas pirating company that you have to be weary of. It actually can make pirating more convenient.

As for professional musicians using non liscenced sounds in their compositions/recordings. I don\'t think thats the best defense. There are MANY musicians/artists out there that dont consider themselves high profile enough to get \"caught\". These people could in a sense have EVERY library out there for abotu a grand if they were able to return things on a money back gurantee. I know thats an exreme and probably wouldn\'t happen, but you guys get the point http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif

Think about the amount of work it would be to go \"over\" all the music out in the world to check to see if your library was being used illegaly, giving this kind of ease of access to unliscenced sounds would make sample developers have to go through music more thoroughly and expansively.

How many individuals do you developers actually catch? I\'m sure there is a more definite focus on groups/rings of piraters.

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Really...I am an Idiot

[Z6]

But the people who pirate it weren\'t going to buy it anyway. If you look at the way Microsoft developed, they constantly whinged about piracy while:
a) They were the world\'s most guilty swashbucklers themselves.
b) Many people used pirated software then eventually bought the stuff legally.

It\'s like the old Napster argument: all the stuff that\'s downloaded wouldn\'t be bought legally anyway, but many of us discovered new music for free then went and bought the CDs.

I\'m going to be honest here so please don\'t jump down my throat. I don\'t know a single person I can share samples with, but if I did I would copy every single sample s/he had. I\'d use them for an indeterminate length of time, then I\'d delete the \'crap\' and I\'d buy the stuff I wanted. That\'s what I\'ve always done with every piece of software I could. I used to live in the middle east; I had copies of software that cost many thousands of pounds; I deleted all the stuff I didn\'t use. But I did eventually get around to buying all the software that I knew I would continue to use.

CD creators have to find a way to get us on board through upgrades and freebies, extensions, new features (but no strangling please).

As an example. I really want the gigastrings the way a five-year old wants (well, whatever it is that five-year olds want this year). But I\'m not going to take a $1,000 gamble that all the beta testers are squeaky clean (that is not in any way to imply subterfuge, but if you review an item and have it on your hard disk for FREE it subtly colors your attitude - you didn\'t have to fork-out non-returnable drinking vouchers for it - if it stinks well, that\'s just too bad but it\'s no skin off your nose).

The idea that everything that is copied by \'pirates\' would have generated income is completely ludicrous: it just ain\'t so.

I\'ve said it here before and I\'ll say it again; $1,000 is a steal for a sober, in tune string section, but I will not in any shape or form, go buy it without trying it out for a couple or three months at least. That means that the revenues I might have generated will never be generated because if I did find someone to lob a copy in my direction, I would be considered a criminal.

Why can\'t we all be beta testers? We are anyway. There isn\'t a software company in the world that gets its software market-ready before they sell it and I\'m sure it\'s the same with samples.

Why don\'t you just give it to us? The people who want to steal it will, I assure you, steal it anyway. After all, gigastrings is only a hundred dollars if you\'ve got nine pals who make music.

I believe that all the new faces creating CDs should take this opportunity to claim the market by giving it away on spec. We\'ll all get to use the stuff and we\'ll pay you as soon as we decide we want it (if we want it).

Sample creators do not have the cash (or few do) to embark on large marketing campaigns but this is one way they could do it. I know it\'s scary and it\'s anti-intuitive but ultimately the only money you\'re ever going to make is from \'honest\' people such as myself and probably everyone else in this group. All this paranoia won\'t make you a single cent more. And I guarantee you\'ll see exponential growth - especially if the products are as great as some of you claim. Schools, universities, kids everywhere will get on the sampling bandwagon, you\'ll have a real consumer market.

Sure some will steal, but THAT WILL HAPPEN ANYWAY. We are the ones who are penalized by your fear (and your potential income is stunted by it).

Stop treating us like criminals.

Finally, let\'s not forget that you guys walk into a room and sample a Steinway or some other famous instrument because the owner doesn\'t really \'get what\'s happening\'. Who owns their sounds? The company that built it? The owner of the instrument? The player? You? Us?

[Jamieh]

The money back guarantee thing just won\'t work. There are too many people out there that will order it, copy it, and send it back. The argument that they will find ways to steal it anyway just doesn\'t cut it. Why make it even easier to pirate stuff?

I never understood why the same people that would never walk into a grocery store and steal groceries find it perfectly OK to steal software and other computer related items.

[Z6]

Originally posted by Jamieh:
\"Why make it even easier to pirate stuff?\"

The degree of difficutly is not relevant unless you get into \'real\' security measures. Also, because old salty seadogs like myself always \'go straight\' in the end.

\"I never understood why the same people that would never walk into a grocery store and steal groceries find it perfectly OK to steal software and other computer related items.\"

Sure you do. Unless you\'re the one person who never downloaded anything from Napster.

I never understood why anyone who\'d never steal software would walk into a grocery store and steal things (I\'d put a smiley face here if I knew how to).

And I\'m still trying to figure out how all those dead French and Italian violin makers are going to sue the makers of gigastrings for blatantly pirating their life\'s work. Shame on you. They should clap you all in irons and keel haul the whole skirvy bunch of you.

:-)

[SOD213]

Perhaps the answer isn\'t a 100% refund, but maybe a 75% refund. That way, people would be less likely to copy the CD\'s (or maybe they\'d still do it, but it\'s not like they\'d get it for free.. GOS would still cost them $250.)

Also, the companies that sell the sample CD\'s can keep a running database of \"deadbeat\" customers that return things, and refuse to honor their RMA requests after two returns. (Maybe someone can honestly return two libraries as unusable, but after that, they can buy elsewhere or live with their third choice and every purchase thereafter!)

And, what of the returned sample CD\'s? Sell them for 10% off!

Just a couple of ideas. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

[fmfgs]

just curious: where can you buy software, install it on your computer and then send it back with full refund just because you dont like it?
I think what would help are realistic demos (like runs and chords)and cheap downloads of single patches.

[KingIdiot]

Z6-

this is a bit off top, but..We actually paid to be on Gary\'s Beta team http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

anyhow, even with that said, one might find people who pay $$$ for somethign trying to justify their payment by convincing themselves its a good purchase, when it might not be.Its all a point a veiw on that one

In the end, our comments as beta testers will only be worth the value that WE are to individuals who read these posts. In the end its still an opinion and the worth of that is different to everyone.

I for one have been out here in this forum for about 2 years and have no reason to steer anyone wrong, so why would I?

ok I\'ve rambled too off topic already..

back on topic... I wish I had every library for free, and Developers didn\'t starve or go broke and would still make more libraries...for me to return...lets go back to not liscensing the sounds..and having to pay a royalty everytime you use samples in a song. The royalty fee can be expensive so that you guys can afford to screen all the music in the world to check for your samples http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif Atleast the CDs will be dirt cheap!

I\'m sure a bunch of these guys do make extra money from people who are disatisfied with the library. I DONT BELIEVE that they are deliberatly trying to disappoint us tho http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif


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Really...I am an Idiot

[dnortana]

Don\'t get me wrong, I am vehemently anti piracy.

But, what I want to know is, who of you has ever seen the \"Sample Police\". Or heard of a sample piracy arrest. Even with piracy being apparently rampant.

Regards,
Trond

[Simon Ravn]

If sample developers offered this, I am sure we\'d see a big increase in \'sales\': People buying the library, copying it, getting the money back.

[Aenigma]

You\'ll notice that it\'s extremely rare for you to be able to return ANY software product for a refund, including sample libraries. It\'s just not possible because it is so simple to make copies and return the originals.

That said, I completely understand how scary it would be to buy a sample library, or any software product for a large sum of money, without knowing exactly what it could and could not do. But there really is no way for us to know all this information about a sample library based on claims and demos made by the creators and users. This is unfortunate, however I can understand why this is.

Someone mentioned selling a large library in smaller pieces. I believe Dan Dean has mentioned (and possibly done) this by offering each instrument on his woodwinds and brass libraries as a separate purchase. I\'d love to see this idea catch on. I think this idea could be taken even further and benefit both the creators and users.

Consider this....

I see a library that interests me, but it\'s something that I\'m not comfortable shelling out X amount of money to buy the whole thing. I go to their webpage and can purchase any single patch then download it, or have it shipped on CD (for a fee). I then use this patch for as long as I choose, possibly even submitting my comments so that other\'s can consider my opinion on that particular sample and choose whether or not to buy it. I then could try any number of other samples by purchasing them separately...even until I had the entire library. The webpage would keep track of which samples I had bought, and if I chose to buy the full collection it would subtract the money that I had already paid on individual samples and I\'d receive the full collection on CD/DVD.

How great would it be to \"sample\" some of the patches without throwing all my money at it on faith? We, as users, would also greatly benefit by this because we can just buy the sounds that we are in need of. The libraries creator(s) would likely get more sales because of the many people like myself who might buy just some of the samples, not the entire collection, because we just don\'t have the money or need. The more \"power-users\" would likely continue to buy most if not all of the collection.

By having opinions of others who have downloaded a particular sample, I can avoid those that just really are not up to par, or would not work as well in a certain specific situation. The libraries creator would then easily know what needs improvement, and could make a 2.0 version of just that sample if they chose.

Metaphorically, I suppose it\'s like a dozen donuts. It\'s still 12 donuts whether I buy them all now, or one a day for 12 days. And if I discover after the first 2 donuts that they really aren\'t what I was expecting, then I find a new donut shop. ;-) Plain and simple!

Now I must run to Krispy-Kream, as I\'ve made myself hungy!

[This message has been edited by Aenigma (edited 08-08-2001).]

[SCARBEE]

Hi,

I understand those who gets annoyed, when they find out that the sample CD they bought is a dissappointment.
So what can we do? (I buy libraries too you know
Well, If I buy a CD that I feel is a waste of money, I won\'t buy from that artist/label again - unless I can be convinced through a good demo - I don\'t always trust reviews.

My own Scarbee Libraries do this: I put out the \"naked\" bass track alone for download, with the clean un-processed sound. Then you can find out how exactly how it sounds on your gear and also hear the un-masked value - how realistic does it sound? Additionally, I put out all the midi-files used in the demoes so people can use them license-free or just be inspired. If you check out the demoes first - you know what you get and can not be disappointed. Off course you can be surprised of the complexity of the programming, but I then deliver an \"easy\" version on the CD.

It is tough to put out a \"naked\" track (since you reveal it all), and I understand the developers who \"dare\" not do this. But I hope that it will be a standard. It will sure force developers to make great libraries.

Scarbee

[Marc Floessel]

Scarbee,

that\'s just exemplary. You really go out of your way in offering potential buyers a fair chance to preview the product. Admirable!

I also wished all developers would provide their buyers with demo MIDIs to be used with their library.
For example personally I have no idea how to play a bass guitar. Let\'s imagine I absolutely needed one to complete a job and thus bought a sample library like yours. Without the premade MIDI demos, I would then need to listen to a lot of source material and quite slowly try to figure out what\'s going on and how to emulate it with samples. I\'d probably never get close to the full potential of the sample library.

With the supplied MIDIs on the other hand, I have an excellent starting point - something I can build on, look up fast and use as inspiration. This is invaluable!

[Munsie]

\"just curious: where can you buy software, install it on your computer and then send it back with full refund just because you dont like it?\"

Almost all of the higher end software has this policy. We\'re not talking about buying some frickin $39.95 game from Walmart or Babbages.

Look into buying almost any software over $200.00 a pop and you\'ll either find a way to get a FREE demo or you\'ll have a money back guarantee.

Samples are NO DIFFERENT from a high end software tool. I like the way Sonic Implants allows you to download and purchase some decent samples for around 10.00-100.00 each. This is a step in the right direction.

The problem comes when sample developers offer this incredible (year long produced) library at 300$-600$ or more! We\'re treated like guinee pigs as an experiment to see who will actually PAY these high prices. The reason they are priced so high isn\'t because they are good or bad samples, it\'s because we the consumer will actually PAY them that much. I PROMISE you if no one buys the latest and greatest string library for $1000.00 they WILL lower their price until someone starts buying it. But I have to be honest here, the actual price of the samples does not bother me, it\'s being burned by puchasing a library based on some killer demos (who knows if they were produced with the actual samples?) and then getting the product only to find 1 or 2 useable samples. This gets old REAL quick.

Sample Developers Should:

1) Offer a money back guarantee for their work. Only then would you know you are getting a superior sample. (Especially on the high dollar packages.)

2) Start supplying us with raw demos of each sample, playing a simple scale or similar solo structure. How many times have you heard a demo only to wish you could isolate a certain sample to further preview it? I\'ve come to realize alot of demos mask the samples in the \"mix\".

3) Consider providing low sample rate versions of their work at a lower cost. Why not then credit the amount toward the higher sample rate version if they decide to upgrade?

4) Stop thinking about piracy, and surely do not include piracy as an excuse to jack up your price. Pirates do not buy software or samples. And yes, you can bet the day your sample cd gets released it\'s already being pirated. A sad but true fact.

[gigaDiga]

There is a very simple answer to this and we\'ve covered this before....

If developers sold LE versions of their libraries at, for example, 25% of the cost of the final then people could buy up these LE versions, use them, and THEN make their minds up as to what libraries they really want to buy. Having purchased the LE version users would then upgrade to the full version for the price of the full version minus the price of the LE version.

A lot of people would be less inclined to pirate because for a few dollars they can be legal with an LE copy. Also, having only spent around $50, there wouldn\'t be much room for complaint about their purchases if they didn\'t live up to expectations.

On the developers side these LE products would also have their benefits. Many users who would never think of buying the full version would still spend the money on the LE version. As a result developers would have a better idea of how big the market for their libraries is and might, after a couple of revisions, decide that it was profitable to sell a cheaper upgrade inbetween the LE and Full versions. In short, with a large network of LE users, developers would be able to slowly string them into buying more and better libraries and things like brand loyalty could be developed.

I don\'t make sample libraries to sell but if I did I\'d definitely try this approach. Surely it\'s an all round winner?

[Nick Phoenix]

I personally find that most demos do not do libraries justice. I haven\'t heard a demo recently that was bogus, but there may be a few. If you are unsure of this, after purchasing a library, it may have something to do with you, or your system. Most people do not make the most of their libraries. Ofcourse, its understandable considering how painful it can be to make samples work. Money Back Guarantee- NO WAY! People are pigs! Didn\'t you know? I have run into many successful composers in LA using pirated software. Any chance they get- They will take it. There is not enough profit in sampling to sustain that hit. Sample libraries would be FAR better than they are now, if there was more money in it. All you can do is go by word of mouth, reviews and lots of demos.

[Jamieh]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>I personally find that most demos do not do libraries justice. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have to agree with that. The only demo I have heard that was somewhat bogus was the Advanced Orchestra demo, which used a lot of phrases to achieve some really realistic trumpet sounds among other things. The demo sounded great, but it would take a TON of work to ever get that sound out of it, plus you would be stuck using their preset phrases.

But I kind of knew they were cheating because I had read reviews about the phrases before hand, so I wasn\'t too disappointed with the library.

[This message has been edited by Jamieh (edited 08-08-2001).]

[clueless]

The Prosamples library series from is an innovative step towards taking out the uncertainty. For roughly $40 for a CD, you get a 200-300Mb selection of the complete library. If you like it, buy the library. You are out $40 if you don\'t like it. I have two Prosamples and have used them.

clueless