Can't we all just get along?

[NYBLUE]

One thing I always liked about this group was that developers interacted
with the users of their sample CDs.
Take Donnie and Garritan. In past threads they asked US what we wanted in
a library and they bent over backwards to deliver. Other forums don\'t have
that. Lately, this group has been returning their courtesy with insults.
To name a few:

\"... just a complaint to all of you who make libraries without the proper
competence, solely for profit. Take www.vrsound.com\'s (\"http://www.vrsound.com\'s\") string library
...sounds like an amateur teens string orchestra, at best. Its proper
library name should be \"Amateur Youth String Orchestra\". \"Guaranteed to make
you cringe at the very thought\". It is obvious to me that either they are
going for the quick bucks, or they have no idea what they are doing. \"
Thomas_J

\" QLBrass, I must draw the conclusion that there was not a lot of effort or
thought put into it...Nick Phoenix, given the low quality of his product and
the content of his rhetoric, seems a good candidate for suspicion.\" MChilds

\"some seriously good MP3s by some decent composers are necessary\" , \", they
are perhaps simply not talented or well trained enough... \" TJ

Nick Phoenix has done remarkable work with his library and I have yet to
find a better brass library. It was unnecessary and slanderous to blast him in
this way. And what did Franz do to deserve such horrific criticism? MP3s
are by their nature decoded, lossy, low res, dependent on the sound cards
and other factors. An entire string library is to be trashed on the basis
of a few mp3s?

Then there\'s GigaStrings - an immense library of incredible instruments
(Stradivaris,etc) recorded at Lincoln Center. It also gets unduly
criticized - before it\'s released - based on compositional grounds of a few
mp3s that were pulled 4 hours after being posted . There is something called legato mode and auto-alternator, making use of up and down bowing. Isn\'t
anyone at all curious about this? I would rather have many imperfect demos
showing the range and versatility of the product instead of a few
overly-produced perfect little demos. How about some demos of legato mode,
auto-alternator, that Warmth control, vibrato control and those other
controls mentioned on the site. I really don\'t care if the mp3s are not
compositionally perfect. The GigaStrings beta testers seem to be the only
ones in the know . These beta testers have been posting to this group for
some time - why would they want to steer us wrong? What\'s the excitement
about? I would really want to know more and hear more from the beta
testers about what makes this library stand out. Forget about being side-tracked with mp3s, we deserve to know more.

Miroslav, Seidlezek, Hunter and the other developers don\'t come on the
group for our suggestions nor post their mp3s for our group. They keep a
low profile and as such they don\'t make themselves targets. I would hate
for Donnie, Nick, Garritan and the other developers to think they should not
bother anymore. But I wouldn\'t blame them if we hear less from them. The
rules of this forum state that \"we are here to help each other get the best
use out of Nemesys GigaSampler/Studio.\" Helping each other doesn\'t include
reckless and irresponsible criticism. I would hate for the developers to disappear from this
group on account of a few thoughtless individuals.

[donnie]

very well said and thanks for the support!

Donnie

[SCARBEE]

I must admit that all the negative posts about different libraries gives me a bad vibe every morning when I turn on my computer. Developers should not be treated \"hard\" - if someone think we will make better libraries this way... forget it. Most of the developers I know are sensitive musicians and should at least be treated with respect. We love suggestions and it can be useful for us when someone point out some weaknesses of our work - but in a friendly constructive way.

Thomas

[KingIdiot]

Its funny. I just realized why this forum seems like a \"hype machine\" to so many people. because its the only place where developers do communicate with end users.

I for one love the fact that developers pop up here and chime in on discusions. I love even more that they listen to our input.

I dont like the harsh criticism of the sound libraries lately. I don\'t feel its waranted at all. I do however believe that constructive criticism is welcomed.

One thing all the sound developers here should realise is that there will always be people who focus on the \"bad things\" (can we say subjective...I thought we could...) and not realise the full potential of the libraries they question, or realise that out of the options we have they represent the best or a very usable option.

I hope they listen to both what we like and what we would like to see improved.

My DD WW should be showing up this week and next up is FINALLY your Ult Orch Perc Donnie, possibly this week, I\'ll share my initial thoughts and then hopefully after I put them to some real use I\'ll be able to come back and share again.

Also I agree I don\'t believe Franz deserved that comment. His libraries are focused on being recorded with his \"3-D Sound\" focus. Not to mention, if I remember correctly, the VR Sound libraries aren\'t too expensive. As well, there are times where one might want sounds that aren\'t \"perfectly\" recorded.

I want to stress to developers to try not to get too irritated by the harsher comments about your libraries that show up here. Try to remember that there are other users taht are probably getting some good use out of them, as well we may even defend them. Or even ask for other users comments in a thread to see if we all agree, which may help in further development OR help all of us discuss what works in achieving different sounds.

I miss the days when Sam was posting his filtering trick for a certain piano library and our infamous reverb discusions.....I can twait for that one to pop up again.




------------------
Really...I am an Idiot

[Z6]

I agree wholeheartedly. I\'m new to this group but have detected some ugly stuff going on.

I indeed think it\'s marvelous that these guys contribute and they certainly won\'t if they have to put up with some of the personal insults that have been bandied around. Luckily, they seem to differentiate.

I think it\'s difficult though, for many people to express themselves properly in this medium (smiley faces aren\'t enough, unfortunately). Also bear in mind that these people are pretty passionate (my god, they\'re musicians after all), what can you expect? I think a lot of it is just hot blooded, painful frankness. (I don\'t honestly think the guy who mentioned the \'youth orchestra\' was really digging too hard - I listened to it and I can\'t imagine what they were thinking. It really does sound like a bunch of kids in a school orchestra, I can\'t believe these are samples; it sounds so real). So you see? Sometimes it can\'t be helped. I\'m sure the people who made it are wonderful people and I wish them a long and happy life, but the MP3 simply IS my old school orchestra.

I\'m glad to see that the \'Samplers\' out there are cutting all of us some slack. I just listened to some cracking brass samples here (inside a wonderful piece of music) and it\'s obvious that some of the old guard of the sampling world might do better to get on board here and face the music if they want to keep their skills sharpened.

[scf3]

Here are my impressions of the gigastring library as one of the beta testers.
It is hard to know where to start, first let me say that you cannot compare this library
to any other. There is nothing that comes close in comprehensiveness and sound quality.
People have said maybe there are too many articulations, so much choice could be confusing. The organization of gigastrings is very transparent and is actually an educational experience in different bowing techniques and playing styles. It actually makes sequencing easier because you are not forced to try and tweak one sample into sounding like another one. If you need spicatto you got it! I used to dread doing string mock-ups because I knew it would take a lot of work to make it sound half way decent.
Gigastrings makes it much, much easier.
I realize this library is not inexpensive and believe me I can sympathize with people who have shelled out good money for a sample cd that was crap, but this is not the case here, you will be getting your moneys worth I guarantee it.

[Munsie]

Bottom line, this is a public forum and good or bad comments should be welcome. Agreed, it would be nice if we all behaved like gentlemen, but I can see where a foul taste is developed after buying some expensive sample cds only to find a few useable samples. See my topic on \"money back guarentees\"

[Haydn]

Which sample libraries are the cutting edge libraries available now or within the next few months? All of these libraries are put out by the sample developers that post on this forum!! Notice that past libraries such as Miroslav, AO, Kirk Hunter, etc., have lost touch with the users and are now falling behind. We should all thank Gary Garritan, Dan Dean, Donnie, Scarbee, Nick Phoenix and the others that spend the extra time to find out what we, the musicians, really want!

Most people don\'t realize the money and time these guys spend putting out and sharing their libraries with us. They could keep them for their personal use so their work sounds better than everyone elses. People are always doing math such as 1,000 copies sound at $1,000 makes a million dollars. How many developers actually sell this many copies? Remember, these guys may have paid a large sum of money up front to record the musicians (plus many other expenses) and then a year programming the library without making a dime. This is a risky business especially with the piracy going on!

Let\'s support and thank our sample developers on our forum! I\'m sure that they\'ll keep on trying to amaze us with their next release!

[Kobb]

I\'d like to add my words of encouragement to the library developers. After researching a lot of different samplers and getting some encouraging e-mails from King Idiot, I will soon be joining the Gigastudio family (my baby\'s delivery date is set for early next week).

One of the things that I found was a BIG plus for going with Gigastudio was the fact that this place even exists. As a Roland VS User, I stumbled across the VS-Planet Bulletin Board about two years ago and was amazed by the wealth of information, support, and sheer looniness that a BBS can offer. And after lurking around here for a few days, I learned TONS about the Gigastudio and was impressed that the library developers were frequent posters. A forum such as this is a fantastic resource, and I hate to see it stained with negativity. That\'s not to say that constructive criticism should be off limits, but there\'s a way to make your point while still keeping in mind the fact that these libraries are the product of a person\'s hard work.

[Chris Beck]

Oh please...

Sample developers are artists working to profit from their art just like the rest of us, and should have thicker skins. Otherwise they should just do it for the fun of it and not sell the libraries.

Critics will be critics, whether professional, amateur, reasonable, or ill-informed. It really shouldn\'t matter - if the library is good, word will get around. You\'ll never be able to please everybody, and everybody should feel free to express their opinions.

I for one never heard the recent demos that were posted for GOS, but if they didn\'t represent the library well for whatever reason (including quality of composition) it\'s better that Gary gets the instant feedback so he knows to improve the quality of his demos.

If I were Gary I\'d offer a free library to Thomas J in exchange for a full suite of mp3 demo\'s.

Just thinking aloud...

- Chris

[KingIdiot]

yah but there isn\'t an Al here Kobb http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif heheee

I also like the fact that developers are here to share their ideas on how to use the libraries at their best. Or point out what they were trying to create in terms of usability

------------------
Really...I am an Idiot

[Kobb]

\"yah but there isn\'t an Al here Kobb heheee\"

Let\'s hope it stays that way.

[Neal Keane]

Nick, FYI, both posts from NYBLUE on this forum come from your local router...and I\'m assuming NYBLUE is not you (?!).

a disgruntled associate, maybe?...just a thought.

[This message has been edited by Neal Keane (edited 02-02-2002).]

[Tokyo Joe]

NYBLUE,

FYI, Kirk Hunter DID come on this board. He posted under several different guises in a lame effort to push the Giga version of his library. It seems he wasn\'t bothered about producing a Giga version before and it was only with the release of GOS that the Giga version of his library magically appeared.

Anyway, he was soon exposed and then he suddenly disappeared from this forum. Wonder why? Business must be bad if he had to stoop that low to push his library.

I do that think alot of the Giga developers produce FANTASTIC libraries. It\'s just that in one or two cases their social skills are lacking... it amuses me to see that some of them come here and basically call their current and potential customers idiots. That\'s not very smart if you ask me.


[This message has been edited by Tokyo Joe (edited 02-02-2002).]

[Chadwick]

I agree with NYBLUE.

I\'m not into browsing these forums just to see negative, time wasting flame wars. You can get that on most other teen message boards - but with far more colourful language http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif

I also want guys like Nick and the other developers to continue to participate on the forums.

[Tokyo Joe]

Exactly. It\'s great that we can talk to the developers direct. That and the sharing of tips and tricks is why I come back everyday.

[This message has been edited by Tokyo Joe (edited 02-02-2002).]

[Mel Tron]

Well, after Jack Nicholson posed the question to the invading Martians: \"Can\'t we all just get along?\" the Martians proceeded to pulverize everything in sight!

It wasn\'t until a humble Country boy and his Grandmother discovered that playing \'Bad Samples\' of a crooning out of key Country Music Singer would immobilize the invaders, left shreeking and running with their ears covered.

Thus, the invasion was halted.

[Simon Ravn]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by NYBLUE:
Then there\'s GigaStrings - an immense library of incredible instruments
(Stradivaris,etc) recorded at Lincoln Center... There is something called legato mode and auto-alternator, making use of up and down bowing. Isn\'t
anyone at all curious about this? I would rather have many imperfect demos
showing the range and versatility of the product instead of a few
overly-produced perfect little demos. How about some demos of legato mode,
auto-alternator, that Warmth control, vibrato control and those other
controls mentioned on the site. The GigaStrings beta testers seem to be the only
ones in the know. I would really want to know more and hear more from the beta
testers about what makes this library stand out. Forget about being side-tracked with mp3s, we deserve to know more.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am not getting it. There are now countless demos of Garritan Orchestral Strings at the site, some at my site (linked to at Gary\'s site), KingIdiot\'s site etc. These demos are meant to show what the library can do. Let me just use my own demos as examples of what is being shown, hopefully convincing to some degree. I have done a demo (Going In) showing fast strings, which was posted at my site during the beta period, and advertised here. It is not at Gary\'s site, but the link is there to my site. In one of my NAMM demos there\'s some more fast strings (sul tasto/sautille) little demo. There are plenty of demos using the legato mode.

All of the demos are in a complete symphonic context, with emphasis on strings. I don\'t see the point in posting a demo with just a violin patch playing 10 notes in succession to prove that you can have 10 notes of violins playing after eachtother. I think it is much more realistic to show what violins could sound like in an orchestral context - both lightly and densely orchestrated. Whether or not the legato mode is used is not interesting - what is interesting is how convincing the result is. To me the legato mode works for some things, it doesnt work for others. Usually when I do something that is played legato, I turn on the legato mode and listen to it. If it doesn\'t work, I turn it off. Alternate bowing will almost always be better than just repeating the same sample over and over again. Again I dont see the point in playing a sole violin ensemble, repeating a few notes to prove that, YES, there is indeed two samples. It will not tell how well this works in a more common situation, e.g. the violins playing on top of or along with celli/violas and basses. If you want the naked sound, listen to the technique demos - they\'re right there for you to judge. If you want to judge the library on those, fine, but I don\'t think it does the library justice.

Warmthcontrol - another issue. Again, how interesting is it? Most people are gonna EQ their work at some point anyway. The warmth-control is a lowpass filter - you can open it and close it as you like. It can be altered via MIDI, so you can change it over time, which can add some nice timbral changes. I used this in a demo. And I use the WARM version of the samples most of the time, especially for celli and viola. In the end I EQ - as individual as possibly, but sometimes I am too lazy or dont have time to record each instrument on its own track.

I think the MP3 demos available now at the site are pretty good at showing what the library can do and how it can sound. Jeremy\'s second MP3 is awesome. The 1st one isnt bad either. Then there\'re a couple of GOS in a more classical sound context demos too, by Tom and others.

I don\'t know what more you would want to know about the library, but feel free to ask me or others here.

[Tom Hopkins]

Simon,

I just noticed that the date on the NYBlue post is from last August when there weren\'t many demos available. Looks like the thread got bumped up to the top by Neal.

Tom

[Robert Kral]

MAJOR-ly good observation there Tom!!

[thesoundsmith]

Isn\'t the real point here RESPECT? For the artist, for the developer, for the struggling newbee. I just did a demo for Franz\'s VR alto sax. I did not come up with something I felt was representative of what the alto is capable of, largely because I don\'t usually work in that multi-track-per-instrument mode that seems popular with GS users.

I could have \'blamed\' Franz for not producing a \'usable\' sax sample set-but I looked at what was there, and realized that we were approaching the creation process from different perpectives. Neother of us is \'wrong\', we\'re just trying to perfrom different intermediate tasks to reach the same end result.

I don\'t believe for a moment that Franz is in this just to make a buck. Or Donnie, Nick, Gary, Kip, etc.

These folks work REALLY hard to create detailed, rich set of sounds. Just because YOU don\'t find a library useful does not invalidate MY need for something created exactly that way. GS is a complex product, and can produce professional results in many different way.
Users: Give the developers a chance to define and refine their production process.
Developers: give us some basic documentation explaining what the significance of a controller choice or keyswitch.

But for the sake of the music, or just to be polite, try to be nice to each other! If somebody is trying to con this group, it won\'t take long to tell who the real bad guys are...

Dasher

[Simon Ravn]

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhh didn\'t notice that. NEAL, wha did you do THAT for?? http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif