Legato!

[Horst]

Hi,

a simple word but a huge challenge for the sampling world.

You all know these pumping performances with swelling attacks where the envelopes try to catch up with the next note - without success.

Or if you cut away the attacks in order to have a quicker response: Liveless generic sounds, fast responding, but not LEGATO.

As long as we operate with single samples, legato is a dream. Until the whole stuff is getting really virtual we are to use special techniques to get a near-legato feeling.

I am interested to share some ideas and experiences with you about how you are getting near-legato today, using GS.

Any experiences and suggestions are very welcome.

Horst.

[Jéricho]

Check out the Gigastrings first demos I would swear Garritan got his hands on something there.
Can\'t wait to put mines on his lib.

[herb]

I think Gigastrings are working well for slow layers, and for staccatos and spiccatos in a medium tempo, but the legato examples didn´t impress me.

[Jéricho]

Well I\'m gonna get those strings asap and I\'ll tell you then who \'s right or wrong ?!?
I really think I heard something promisingon the legato side so I\'ll take a chance.
Cheers

[Jamieh]

I would love to hear some legato samples of the Gigastrings violins as well. That is the area that most concerned me in the original slate of demos.

I believe Gary said he was addressing that problem specifically.

[KingIdiot]

I don\'t want this to be considred hype its just an honest opinion from working with gigastrings

The legato feature is still being tuned, but what I\'ve used of it is really good IMO. Its pretty flexible and be adjusted on the fly. We are all still learning how to use it, and what works and what doesn\'t. Still with the legato feature you can remove the \"pumping\" that occurs with constantly triggering samples with long attacks. As well, since it can be controlled \"on the fly\", you can create a more lively sound rather than using samples without an attack. Its a promising and unique feature

You can\'t create long realistic fast trills with this feature (tho there are trill samples and some of the shorter articulations can simulate some), but for moving melodies it can be extremely useful, adn with adding touches of slides here and there can be extremely realistic. ... the word is realistic...not real...

As for creating it with other libraries.

With AO the \"legato\" key switch can be manipulated into sounded less abrupt with some mod wheel controla and expression control. It takes ALOT of work to do tho and is usually not the most gratifying result. Layering different strings together and using their \"legato\" attacks if they have any helps. Synth strings with \"legato\" mode over sampled strings help as well. Most of this isn\'t the most realistic way of working, but it can help ease the swelling/pumping sound. It all takes a bit of work tho

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Really...I am an Idiot

[Jamieh]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Synth strings with \"legato\" mode over sampled strings help as well. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, this is what I end up doing now, and I\'d love to have GigaStrings let me stop wasting time trying to make my strings sound legato.

[Horst]

I cannot imagine in theory how you can achieve legato sound without cutting attacks: The problem is, that it takes some time after the bowstrike to gain full volume. In real life legato is achieved through moving the bow while changing the tune. There is also a very short portamento effect. You can hardly simulate this with samples.

What I tried with some success is to cut off the very start of the attack and to add a very quick artifical attack in order to have no clicks. Then I use a combination of Pre-Attack Level of e.g. 20% to 30% together with an attack time of about 2 to 3 seconds, dependant on the character of the sample.
That makes quite a nice \"cantabile\" sound. I also use a controller to steer other combinations of Pre-Attack and attack time for slower or faster passages.

It has payed to not cut off attacks with ff-samples, because that spoils authenticity and makes a flexible but cold \"generic\" sound. Her you might want to use the sample-start feature in combination with pre-attack level and attack time and to steer
these with a controller through dimensions. I wished that sample-start would have a wider range than just 2000 samples.

I never thought of layering. Could anybody tell me, what you layer with what and how you do it (timing parameters etc.) ?

Horst

[KingIdiot]

>>>I cannot imagine in theory how you can achieve legato sound without cutting attacks: The problem is, that it takes some time after the bowstrike to gain full volume. In real life legato is achieved through moving the bow while changing the tune. There is also a very short portamento effect. You can hardly simulate this with samples.<<<


Actually, Its something thats in Garritan\'s Orchestral Strings. It can be done (including the slight portamento), and we are all trying to find ways to make it easiest to do. The cellos sound amazing with this technique, so it can be done with samples.....and before everyone goes asking where the demos are, they\'ll pop up soon...but not till they are ready to be posted.

As for layering techniques, there are all kinds of things one can do. I find that filtering out some lows and low mids on some samples give me a smaller section sound that you can \"simulate\" divisi strings with.

Some synths (my Roland XP does) have \"legato\" mode that you can use layered under teh samples, but it still sounds like caca sometimes...then sometimes its not so bad..

As for other instruments, I\'m sure with some sample editign I can get some uniue sounds out of Dan Dean solo WW. Playing legato isn\'t too bad as they are...actually they are pretty good, I wish there were \"key pressing\" samples layering those on top sublty would be a GREAT legato simulater.

Scarbee seems to have nailed it with his library....

Horns... doing some pitch bending before each note helps for legato on frech horns..but its VERY difficult to do in real time..and is sometimes more work than its worth

Trombones...someone should listen to Scarbees bass lib and we might actually get some cool trombone slides and acctually be able to recreate some....until then we have to settle for......<cringe> pitch shifting

Melodyne is out for the Mac and I may look into that for recreating slides...dont use my mac much for audio tho...maybe its time to get a titanium http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif hehee

Trumpts.. I need to go in and edit the ones I have for \"legato\" I think it can be done tho .... when I get around to it... which will probably be never...

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Really...I am an Idiot

[This message has been edited by KingIdiot (edited 08-09-2001).]

[This message has been edited by KingIdiot (edited 08-09-2001).]

[PatS]

So that we have a common ground for discussion, indulge me for a moment as I summarize the “legato problem” and then describe some possible solutions. I will focus my comments on string sample libraries, but what I have to say here should apply to woodwind and brass sample libraries.

An inherent problem with string libraries, at least when faced with the task of playing a legato line, is that the sampled tones are discrete and contain the onset of a bow stroke. For some musical contexts, these samples are desirable. However, when using the samples to create a melodic line, most if not all of us perceive the transitions from tone to tone as stilted or “drunken,” particularly if the samples contain a noticeable swell. Some forum members have already suggested the use of the “overlapping” technique as a means for concealing the effect, but the technique doesn’t always work and is a poor substitute for the continuous bowing “information” that is essential to the sound of a legato phrase.

As we all know, “legato” is a playing technique whereby the string player smoothly articulates two or more tones under a single bow stroke (a change of bow direction may be required for longer passages, but a well-trained violinist will conceal the transition). Only the initial tone of the legato phrase contains the onset of the bow stroke; the other tones result from depressing the already vibrating string(s) at the appropriate locations on the fingerboard. Of course, as string players will attest, much more is involved here (slides between tones, continuity of finger and hand movements, pressure adjustments of the bow, etc.), but for the sake of moving this along, I’ll end the description here.

One solution to the legato problem, as I have described it, is to sample every conceivable legato phrase in every conceivable tonal and non-tonal context. OK, not feasible! Moving on. Another solution is to sample every note within an instrument’s full (professional) range in the context of a legato phrase. The developer wouldn’t have to slice off the attacks because the samples wouldn’t contain information specific to the onset of a bow stroke (I’m borrowing the high-falutin expression “information specific to . . .” from a group of researchers, known as “ecological psychologists,” who study perception in terms of the information in sound and other “ambient arrays,” information specific to its source and the source’s transformation). Unfortunately, the acoustic information about the smooth fingering transitions between tones may still be missing, to say nothing about how many samples the developer would have at the end of a recording session (samples with bow attacks, samples without bow attacks, etc.). In other words, this, too, may not be a workable solution.

So, this takes us back to where we started. (I’m not much help, now am I.) I propose that, instead of returning to the concert hall or recording studio to re-record everything, developers should grapple with what they already have: discrete tones with conspicuous bow attacks.

As a beta tester for Gary Garritan’s “Orchestral Strings,” I’ve witnessed just this. At the urging of several beta testers, Gary, Tom and a “clever” beta tester dealt head on with the legato problem by answering these two questions (two sides of the same coin, as it were):

1. How do we simulate the continuous bowing information specific to legato playing?
2. How do we conceal the realistic, but disruptive bow attacks?

Without going into any detail, I can say that their answer to these questions relies on specially designed .gig instruments and the use of the “Legato Mode” feature in a third-party utility called MaestroTools. I hasten to add that Gary’s team confronted the problem early in the beta program and spent countless hours brain-storming and approaching the problem from several different angles before arriving at the present and very flexible solution. (BTW, one approach involved lopping off the attacks, but they soon concluded that the result was unconvincing and then moved on to the next experiment.)

I’ve used the Legato Mode feature for several weeks now and am quite satisfied with the results. I frequently play phrases with and without Legato Mode enabled to hear the “before-and-after” effect, which is most revealing. When Legato Mode is enabled, the transitions between tones are much smoother and well balanced. As I play a group of notes, I even sense the bow being drawn across the strings; granted, this may be my imagination playing tricks on me, but the “auditory image” is very much real to me. Of course, practice is required; the more time I spend with Legato Mode, the easier it becomes to produce realistic and elegant sounding legato phrases.

Will Legato Mode satisfy everyone? I hope so (as does Gary, no doubt), but I recognize that no two auditory systems are alike. Some of you, particularly string players, may crave even more acoustic information in the samples or may pick up information that is distracting, since you are attuned to acoustic properties that the rest of us either ignore or are not trained to detect. Moreover, the verisimilitude of perception is not always “pure”: you will hear what you want or expect to hear, due in part to your predispositions and the anticipatory nature of perception and cognition. In short, realism is relative.

Alas, developers will just have to live with the reality that not everyone will be pleased with their work. A short visit on this forum is enough to convince me that they’re doing that already. Poor, wonderful souls!

Pat

[This message has been edited by PatS (edited 08-13-2001).]

[killerbobjr]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>
1. How do we simulate the continuous bowing information specific to legato playing?
2. How do we conceal the realistic, but disruptive bow attacks?

Without going into any detail, I can say that their answer to these questions relies on specially designed .gig instruments and the use of the ?Legato Mode? feature in a third-party utility called MaestroTools. I hasten to add that Gary?s team confronted the problem early in the beta program and spent countless hours brain-storming and approaching the problem from several different angles before arriving at the present and very flexible solution. (BTW, one approach involved lopping off the attacks, but they soon concluded that the result was unconvincing and then moved on to the next experiment.)
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I\'ve been working on a solution with Dan Dean\'s Solo Strings. So far, I\'ve gotten a passable legato mode working with his staccato samples using some judicious filtering and attack variations plus the use of a MIDI plugin for legato phrasing, but I\'m still not satisfied with the results. You can hear my attempts at http://www.geocities.com/killerbobjr (\"http://www.geocities.com/killerbobjr\") or http://members.home.com/killerbobjr1 (\"http://members.home.com/killerbobjr1\") -- Let me know what you think.

[SCARBEE]

I use real legato-tails in my bass libraries and it sounds very real.

I record a legato phrase and cut away the first part - the attacked note. And make the \"tail\" a dimension to trigger.

You have to be careful about the volume of these samples (must fit the sustained) and have plenty of room to adjust within the sub-region, so you can emulate different tempi of the legato phrase.

If I were to record legato for violins I would make at least 4 (rather 8) different legato per note:

a: legato-tail comming from whole tone up
b: legato-tail comming from whole tone down
c: legato-tail comming from half tone up
d: legato-tail comming from half tone down

There should be a soft and hard of each.

And all the playing positions should be sampled.

Scarbee

[This message has been edited by SCARBEE (edited 08-10-2001).]

[Horst]

PatS, you´ve given a detailed analysis of the problem. However it doesn\'t help a lot. Basically you are saying that for the Gigastrings they have found a good solution with a specially programmed .gig

Some more information would help to understand what the idea is rather than creating the \"ultimate Gigastring-myth\" where the only solution is to buy it.

Let´s speculate a bit and come back to earth: Parameters of the gig to deal with this could be: Attack, sample start, filtering, maybe layering. But what is the magic behind \"maestro tools?\": I suspect it could have something to do with timing, maybe program/controller changing. Does it detect a phrases (the essence of legato!) ?

The myth alone does not make a legato sound, (but it helps selling products).

Some more info please.

Horst

[Simon Ravn]

Uhm...... well......


[This message has been edited by Simon Ravn (edited 08-10-2001).]

[PatS]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by killerbobjr:
I\'ve been working on a solution with Dan Dean\'s Solo Strings. So far, I\'ve gotten a passable legato mode working with his staccato samples using some judicious filtering and attack variations plus the use of a MIDI plugin for legato phrasing, but I\'m still not satisfied with the results. Let me know what you think.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The violin sounds like an example of the detache technique. Did I download the wrong mp3?

BTW, please don\'t view my remark as a slam on your utility. It was just my initial reaction to the mp3, which I\'ll listen to again at home. I have Dan\'s Solo Strings, which I adore. So if you have a tool that enhances their playability, I\'ll be the first in line to buy it.

Pat

[This message has been edited by PatS (edited 08-10-2001).]

[Z6]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by killerbobjr:
I\'ve been working on a solution with Dan Dean\'s Solo Strings. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I\'m waiting for the DD strings to arrive and have had to make do with the \'Fawlty Towers\' demo. I think your demos sound great (especially the one called \'Legato test\') and Mr. Dean might consider putting them on his website. They certainly made made feel good that I had them on order, and if I\'d heard your demo first I would have been even more sold on them. The last note sounded a bit weird and kind of took me out of the \'period\' - I\'m not sure if it was the actual note(s) or the timbre. But the whole thing was very convincing and musical.

[killerbobjr]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>
The violin sounds like an example of the detache technique. Did I download the wrong mp3?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

LegatoTest.mp3 -- yeah, the violin doesn\'t move between notes smoothly enough for my desires. But it\'s a hell of a lot better than trying to get a legato off the Violin Arco patch. I\'m still experimenting with the patch settings to get things sounding better.


<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>
The last note sounded a bit weird and kind of took me out of the \'period\' - I\'m not sure if it was the actual note(s) or the timbre.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Since the attack on the Arco patch is so slow, I\'ve been trying various techniques to make the note attack faster. This particular version uses the Staccato patch overlayed on the last three violin notes with the Arco patch which gives it a weird phasey effect. I\'ve experimented with editing the samples directly which gives me better results, but since I couldn\'t share that with everyone, I\'ve been trying to find an acceptable solution with creating new articulation patches only. Dan Dean is supposed to release new articulation patches any day now, but I\'ve been waiting for them for weeks!

BTW, the method I used to get legato phrasing on the violin is this: first I created a patch from the Violin Staccato called Staccato Smooth in which I created 4 velocity layers, 0-79, 80-95, 96-111, 112-127. On EG/LFO1 I set attack times to: 0-79 .24s; 80-95 .2s; 96-111 .1s; and 112-127 0s. Unfortunately, Gigastudio doesn\'t have any way of mapping velocity to filter settings directly, so this method will have to do. Then I used a MIDI plugin called Style Enhancer MIcro from NTONYX to create a legato effect on the MIDI passage, using the Violin Romantic Legato setting. I adjusted the Duration Random to 5% and Velocity Depth to %50 and set the Expression MIDI message to be Volume. Then I increased the overall note duration by %130 and decreased overall Velocity by 10. Then I edited the velocity by hand for a few notes that stuck out too much.

That\'s way too many steps to take to get a merely passable legato effect in my opinion and it doesn\'t fool my ear yet, but I\'m closer than I was before.

[KingIdiot]

As beta testers we\'ve all signed an NDA that wont allow us to discuss many details on how Maestro Tools works AND GOS in general. I know it sounds like that we are only hyping the library but its jus that we enjoy using it. There are still limits to what we can say and MAYBE we shouldn\'t have said anything at all, since it is being regarded to most as hype and not just end user enjoyment. I\'m actually quite frustrated not being able to tell about all the features.

Anyhow please understand us, we are not posting these things just to sell the library, we are just excited.

I guess I CAN tell you that legato mode can be switched \"on/off\" in real time, so you can play one note and throw it on for legato phrasing, then throw it off to start a new phrase. Similar to how the switching it is done in keyboards/synths.

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Really...I am an Idiot

[PatS]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Horst:
Some more information would help to understand what the idea is rather than creating the \"ultimate Gigastring-myth\" where the only solution is to buy it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

By no means was my intention to create or perpetuate a myth, although I did want to put in a good word for Gary\'s library. I\'ll leave the details up to Gary, Tom and the developer of MaestroTools.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>
Let´s speculate a bit and come back to earth: Parameters of the gig to deal with this could be: Attack, sample start, filtering, maybe layering. But what is the magic behind \"maestro tools?\": I suspect it could have something to do with timing, maybe program/controller changing. Does it detect a phrases (the essence of legato!) ?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Now that would be cool: An intelligent phrase detector! No, Legato Mode is very much a hands-on tool. I know that\'s not saying much, but I\'m not at liberty to say more.

BTW, at the risk of digressing, to what are you referring when you say \"the essence of legato\"? Phrases? Or detecting phrases? For good or ill, you\'re speaking to a former music academic. My understanding of the term \"phrase\" is that is has several meanings; here are two of the more common uses of the term: (1) \"to phrase\" (to give dynamic and rhythmic/metric shape to a passage) and (2) \"a bounded formal unit,\" such the antecedent phrase of a period or the presentation phrase of a sentence. As you well know, an antecedent phrase can be played pizzicato or staccato and therefore would not represent \"the essence of legato.\" Unfortunately, some editors have a penchant for using the so-called \"phrasing slur\" to help performers see the phrase boundaries, but I agree with Heinrich Schenker (an early 20th-century music theorist) that the slur is redundant and confusing (do I play the phrase entirely with a legato touch?). Of course, if the composer wishes for the entire phrase to be played legato, then the slur is appropriate.

Anyway, sorry for being so pedantic on this last point. I told you I might digress.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>
The myth alone does not make a legato sound, (but it helps selling products).
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I\'m not sure how to respond to this, but I\'ll try. Delays notwithstanding, Orchestral Strings is very much a real product, and its solution to the legato problem is equally real. The library may not offer the ultimate solution to the problem (that\'s for you and others to judge), but it offers a solution nonetheless, and it works. Nothing mythical here! (Do I speak with a lisp? Mythical. Musical. Never mind!) Of course, hearing is believing, so I don\'t expect your skepticism to disappear based on my words alone.

Pat

[This message has been edited by PatS (edited 08-10-2001).]

[Horst]

Hi,

thank you for that lievely discussions here.

To PatS: Please do not take my comments to personal. I just wanted to challenge you a bit about what the sample producers are trying at the moment to deal with the legato problem. About phrasing, yes I think you know what I mean: In all important notators phrases can be grouped together with a bow and the notes are then often played with 100% duration, which should help to simulate a legato sound. I am happy this feature exists. And in the majority of classical scores phrasing bows are used.

To killerjobjr (hope I got that name right): Thank you for detailing out the paramters. That is certainly interesting.

But what is behind the leagto-plugins ? Where can you plug them in (which programs), what do they do ?

Thanx.
Horst

[PatS]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Horst:
To PatS: Please do not take my comments to personal. I just wanted to challenge you a bit about what the sample producers are trying at the moment to deal with the legato problem. About phrasing, yes I think you know what I mean: In all important notators phrases can be grouped together with a bow and the notes are then often played with 100% duration, which should help to simulate a legato sound. I am happy this feature exists. And in the majority of classical scores phrasing bows are used.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I knew you were interested in the details of their solution, and I wish I could disclose their \"trade secret.\" It\'s quite elegant.

As for the \"terminology\" issue, I think I know what you are saying. Granted, folks do use the term \"phrase\" to refer to a musical \"gesture\" (any cohesive musical unit such as a motive, subphrase, etc.), and I suspect that\'s how you are using it. But even at this level of description, a phrase can be performed non-legato (e.g., detache, staccato, marcato) and still be regarded as a \"phrase\" (or \"gesture\" or whatever you wish to call it).

If you would indulge me again, the hair-splitter in me has one more question to ask: By \"phrases can be grouped together with a bow,\" do you mean several phrases are played under one bow stroke or that the notes constituting a phrase are grouped together under a single bow stroke? Both are true, but I\'m not sure which one you meant (my money is on the latter), or if you meant something else. (You can take the academic out of the academy, but you can\'t ditch him in the market. What the . . . ?)

OK, I lied. Here\'s another question: What is a \"phrasing bow\"? I\'m not familiar with the term, at least as regards music. I\'ve only encountered it in reference to the analysis of human motion (i.e., labanotation).

Thanks for your long suffering.

Pat

[This message has been edited by PatS (edited 08-12-2001).]

[Chadwick]

Hey KBjr

You\'re description of the Intonyx thing intrigued me so I went and had a look.

Woah! What a bizarre programme. That\'s some clever programming. Loved the demos of the harmonica in particular. Also like the way it assumed bends on the bass wherever there was a semitone shift.

Shame it\'s Cakewalk specific... must be fun to play with.

[killerbobjr]

There\'s a stand-alone version -- Style Enhancer 3.0 -- that essentially works as sequencer. It\'s not as convienient as a plugin, but it\'s usable for those who don\'t use Cakewalk.

[Oksi Moron]

I\'m going to stick my neck out and ask if any of y\'all would be willing to critique the \"legato-ness\" of my full-length (7 MB)rendering of the Samuel Barber \"Adagio for Strings\" (same piece Donnie posted an exerpt from a few days ago):

http://www.stanford.edu/~gmsmith/mp3/barber3.mp3 (\"http://www.stanford.edu/~gmsmith/mp3/barber3.mp3\")

I\'m new to this kind of thing, and have no professional pretensions. All I want to know is whether this rendering is in the ballpark, legato-wise. I think I know what Horst and others mean by \"pumping,\" but I\'m not 100% sure. I\'ve used some tricks to try to minimize what I think I perceive as pumping, but how well have I succeeded?

Oksi

[Maarten Spruijt]

All these theories about legato sampling are interesting, but there really is a lot you can achieve just with one set of normal (slow-attack) samples, as long as the legato part isn\'t too fast.

TWO BASIC THINGS I use to get better legato strings, brass or whatever expressive, orchestral instrument:

1 --- Give the notes JUST the right amount of note overlap (you all know this one I guess), which means the samples got to have a small release value as well. Now don\'t think this is a cheap, out-of-the-book trick: 10 to 20 midi ticks in note overlap length can make the difference between realistic and midi-overlap-sounding!

2 --- Always use the expression (or, if you will, volume) controller to make realistic bowing, swelling and breathing curves. It works wonderfully if the curve makes a small duck just before (and a little overlapping) a new legato note. This way you get a very tense and expressive note start, without getting the too-slow-attack problem.

Now, as an example, at http://www2.hku.nl/~maarte2/audio/tpmaintitles.mp3 (\"http://www2.hku.nl/~maarte2/audio/tpmaintitles.mp3\") I put the Main Titles cue from my score for the film Tijmen\'s Plot, in which I use a lot of slow, but legato string passages. If I can find another piece with legato notes in a higher tempo, I will post it as well.

Maarten


------------------
( www.maartenspruijt.com (\"http://www.maartenspruijt.com\") )
ICQ: 37834976

[Horst]

PatS,
you´re pulling my leg eh ? I am not a native speaker but try to explain: I am talking about lines (curves, bows...) that group notes of different together and like to be performed as a phrase. If they are not stacc. or portato or detache than you do probably well to play them legato. If not you may have missed some 80% of all classical scores.
Horst

[PatS]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Horst:
PatS,
you´re pulling my leg eh ? I am not a native speaker but try to explain: I am talking about lines (curves, bows...) that group notes of different together and like to be performed as a phrase. If they are not stacc. or portato or detache than you do probably well to play them legato. If not you may have missed some 80% of all classical scores.
Horst<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, I\'m not pulling your leg. I\'m just splitting hairs: it\'s what academics (even former academics) do best. I call those curvy lines \"slurs\" (\"bow\" is a good description), but I don\'t always use the word \"phrase\" they way you do. Typically, I use \"phrase\" in reference to a 4-8 bar formal unit. I do know that some folks call a slur a \"phrase mark,\" but I still tend to call a slur a \"slur.\" Again, this is all just hair-splitting and in no way meant to take you to task. I\'m sorry if all of this seems silly or trivial. I was merely trying to make a small (or small-minded?) point that \"phrase\" has several meanings.

***

Boy, what I\'d give to have 80% of all classical scores in my library. Lord knows I\'ve studied hundreds of them, but for some unknown reason the university libraries always frowned on my attempts to keep the scores indefinitely. ;-) I really miss those miniatures--you know, those little 3\"x5\" pocket scores.

Pat

[mahlon]

Oksi M.

YEAH you\'re in the right ball park. It\'s all about listening and phrasing and tweaking....and tweaking....and tweaking....and tweaking...which, obviously, it sounds like you done. That\'s a very emotional render. I say \'excellent\'. Yes, very excellent, indeed.

Mahlon


p.s. Thanks for the whole thing.

[Oksi Moron]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by mahlon:
Oksi M.

YEAH you\'re in the right ball park. It\'s all about listening and phrasing and tweaking....and tweaking....and tweaking....and tweaking...which, obviously, it sounds like you done. That\'s a very emotional render. I say \'excellent\'. Yes, very excellent, indeed.

Mahlon


p.s. Thanks for the whole thing.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Mahlon,

You made my day! About 90 downloads have been made of that file, but only you and one other person have commented on it, and I was starting to think that maybe it was so awful nobody wanted to tell me how awful it was.

The other person who commented mentioned that it seemed rather metronomic and too heavily quantized. I was expecting to get criticized for excessive use of tempo curves in the moving parts. As for the too-quantized feel, I do wish I had at least set individual amounts of delay on each of the parts before posting the piece. I\'ll probably do that tonight, then upload the \"improved\" version.

Anyhow, thanks so much for the encouraging words! And BTW, I\'m a big RVW fan from way back -- used to listen to Sinfonia Antarctica over and over when I was kid, a long time ago.

Oksi

[mahlon]

Oksi M.
I only noticed the \'quantization\' feel a little bit, though I doubt you quantized it at all. It might feel a little \'regular\'. From a performance point of view, say, if I were a producer and you were doing this for my company, all I would want to see (and this is nit-picking) is to allow the piece to breath a little more. Maybe this is what the other poster was sensing, too. You could open up the piece by allowing more space and silence, and more time lagging, etc. After all, I think with this adagio, people can take all the time in the world. It really does captivate the emotions, and it easily holds listeners under its spell.

But, again, this is just nit-picking and you\'ve really done an excellent render of it.
By the way, I don\'t think you mentioned what samples you were using? Are these the Dan Dean Solo Strings I\'ve heard so much about?

Good luck,
Mahlon

[Oksi Moron]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by mahlon:
Oksi M.
I only noticed the \'quantization\' feel a little bit, though I doubt you quantized it at all. It might feel a little \'regular\'. From a performance point of view, say, if I were a producer and you were doing this for my company, all I would want to see (and this is nit-picking) is to allow the piece to breath a little more. Maybe this is what the other poster was sensing, too. You could open up the piece by allowing more space and silence, and more time lagging, etc. After all, I think with this adagio, people can take all the time in the world. It really does captivate the emotions, and it easily holds listeners under its spell.

But, again, this is just nit-picking and you\'ve really done an excellent render of it.
By the way, I don\'t think you mentioned what samples you were using? Are these the Dan Dean Solo Strings I\'ve heard so much about?

Good luck,
Mahlon<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Mahlon,

Again, thanks so much for the kind encouragement. I\'ve tweaked the file a bit more and saved it again as barber3.mpg, so the previous URL still works. You\'re right about the need for longer pauses, but to work them in it looks like I\'ll also have to fiddle with the note shaping -- too much for tonight, so says my wife.

As for libraries, I\'m using AO and nothing else. It\'s the only string ensemble library I own. I do have the DD solo strings, and another tweak I could (and probably will) make would be to layer them over the AO strings.

Thanks so much.

Oksi

[KingIdiot]

Oksi,

The legato you have going sounds pretty ok, but it breaths a bit. its got taht \"wah\" kind of breathing in places , not everywhere tho. There are places where it does sound really good. Also there are stops that jsut sound too \"perfect\". I think its better than alot of tries i\'ve heard with AO. and I think if you \"feather in\" (as DD lies to call it) the Dan Dean SS over the top It might sound better. Try playing the DDSS stuf over the top instead of jsut copying and pasting. t might ake the world of difference and help it sound more realistic.

Marteen.... the strigns sound great and the piece is awesome as usual, but the legato just doesn\'t have taht \"real\" sound.

what I\'ve found that works best is actually the opposite of what you suggest. Popping up the expression a tad right before the new note and diping right on the new note seems to work best for me. Then again I\'ve been a bit spoiled with GOS and thats when I really started using the little \"bump up\" on the expression. With AO I think if you do this and the dip when you switch to those lousy legato samples you can get a more realistic \"bowing\"... too abd the strings wont osund as good with jsut AO http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif Sounds like you\'re using Ultimate strings or something better than AO there.

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Really...I am an Idiot

[This message has been edited by KingIdiot (edited 08-21-2001).]

[Oksi Moron]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by KingIdiot:
Oksi,

The legato you have going sounds pretty ok, but it breaths a bit. its got taht \"wah\" kind of breathing in places , not everywhere tho. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

KingIdiot,

Thanks so much for the feedback. I think I understand what you mean. Sounds to me as if in a lot of places there\'s still too much \"change of bow\" -- right? In some places the legato happens right and there\'s the illusion of the strings playing a succession of notes on one bow, but other places it still sounds as if they\'re sawing away, one note to a bow change. If that\'s what you\'re talking about, I can hear it myself, and I think I can fix it.

Sorry to be using crummy old AO strings. I made the mistake of telling my wife I lusted after the GOS library, instead of just quietly putting it on my Visa and paying it off over a few months. Must be many a sad story like mine (get out the violins!) playing itself out over the world :-)

Oksi

[KingIdiot]

Ao strings really aren\'t that bad in some cases. They aren\'t very expressive tho IMO. I was able to get a pretty good sound out of layering Ultimate Strings and AO and then even some synth stings, but this is when you have a full string section playing. When you cut to jsut violins or....ick...the cellos on those libraries they sound REALLY false. I\'ve heard some good use of Kirk Hunter...

bt if I\'m suggesting other libraries of course it\'ll be GOS... http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif

Anyhow. about the brathing I think it can be lessened for sure..its jsut that its SOOO much work in the sequencer or editing smples taht it seems counter productive when you dont have foreever to \"tweak\" on nuances like legato...especially when legato is so difficult to perform with the currently available samples.

anyhow.. I still think the oly one whos go tit right so far is SCARBEE, possibly jsut because he actually plays the instrument and samples it himself. I\'m sure i could do a pretty good job of Sampling a guitar, and giving a toolset to create realistic performances on it.....if I ever did it...but since I play guitar I don\'t need samples http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

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Really...I am an Idiot

[Horst]

HI,
sorry for digging up this old (but always interesting!) thread again, but I would like to comment on Oksi Moron\'s example of legato strings taken from Adagio for strings.

Oksi,
I find this was very well done. The best thing I find in it is however not the legato of the leading violin themes. Your example shows very obviously that it is very difficult to get the legato sound right. The notes of the leading violins stand beside each other. There is a lack of \"flow\".
This might be improvable while truncating natural attacks of the samples and replacing them with artifical attack controlled via MIDI.

But I was really impressed by the celli and double basses. You managed to reproduce these very realistically. Also the way up to the climax you did very convincingly.

I share the opinion that somebody else mentioned here saying that you could increase tension to the performance if you played more with pauses, silence and ritardandos.

What I also liked with this study was that you did not flood it with artifical reverb which gave us the chance to listen to the details.

What I also like to hear is that there is another admirer of RVW here! The 5th symphony - isn´t that a wonderful gift ?

Horst

[Endicott]

..

[This message has been edited by Endicott (edited 09-08-2001).]

[Tom Hopkins]

For those who didn\'t see my reply on the other thread:

Endicott,

I\'m not quite sure what your criticism is here. Are you implying that these are identical files? They are not (and obviously not when you look at them in an editor). They are precisely what we claim them to be. One is a real crescendo-diminuendo recorded at the sampling session and the other is simulated using a 4 velocity split crossfade sustain instrument using the mod wheel to control the dynamics.

Or perhaps you are saying that the EXP simulation is not close enough to the real recorded crescendo-diminuendo to be convincing. Sounds pretty close to me but that\'s up to each listener to decide.

Or maybe you\'re saying that such comparisons aren\'t useful or appropriate. Hmmm.

Or maybe I have completely missed your point.

[Endicott]

..

[This message has been edited by Endicott (edited 09-08-2001).]

[Jamieh]

Ok, I\'ll bite. What the heck does that picture prove?

The real creshendo and the simulated one both sound convincing to me. I\'m not sure what the graphical picture of the waveform has to do with anything, but I guess we are playing 20 questions here.

[Simon Ravn]

Endicott WTF are you on about? They are not even identical so I can\'t see your point.... This is become routine with you...

[Endicott]

..

[This message has been edited by Endicott (edited 09-08-2001).]

[KingIdiot]

BTW since this thread is about legato
http://www.musicyouneed.com/yup/legatoviolinstest3.mp3 (\"http://www.musicyouneed.com/yup/legatoviolinstest3.mp3\")

Its a throw together with some legato phrasing to test out the violins legato phrasing from GOS. I just got to them as of Friday so I haven\'t had enough time to fool with them just yet. It does take a little time to \"learn\" how to \"play\" them, but not too long. remember its jsut a BASIC test of some legato work. If I played two sections of violins \"by hand\" I\'m sure it would sound much better

I do have a better feel with the cello legato phrasing because I\'ve gotten used to them. Here\'s an old throw together with some legato Cello work. This was with early betas, before the legato feature was put into the viola and vioins. Also its normalised. If I foudn out anything during this beta test period it was to never normalise string section parts. It makes them unrealistically loud and in fact harsher than they actually are. Turn the volume down jsut a tad http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif
http://www.musicyouneed.com/yup/ff7intro.mp3 (\"http://www.musicyouneed.com/yup/ff7intro.mp3\")

I dont have any full compositions I can throw up for you guys because someone else owns the music, but I\'d love to share some of the little experiences I\'ve had with this library.


EDIT- also
http://www.musicyouneed.com/yup/gsdemo16_6.mp3 (\"http://www.musicyouneed.com/yup/gsdemo16_6.mp3\")

Again these are all from the betas without all th newest features. I hope to have some new stuff with all the new features up to share soon

PS I\'m a horrible composer, but I love to \"tweak\" on little things, so when you want to hear wha can really be done with the library in compositions listen to the ike\'s Simon\'s demos.

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Really...I am an Idiot

[This message has been edited by KingIdiot (edited 09-02-2001).]

[Thomas_J]

Endicott, this is going nowhere.

I think I\'m speaking on behalf of most of the NS-community when I say that you have reached a point at which we can no longer tolerate your impertinent contributions to this forum. Your obvious lack of respect toward great composers, musicians and developers on this thread is downright sickening. I\'m with Simon (and the others) here. By posting that comparison .jpg, what exactly are you trying to prove? If you\'re insinuating that this is actually a fake marketing trick, you\'d better supply better evidence. Those two pictures prove that they are actually two different samples (regardless of their similarity in waveform shape) and if anything, this puts the GoS library in an even better light. You really ought to think twice the next time you intend to \"educate\" us.

Thomas

[Endicott]

..

[This message has been edited by Endicott (edited 09-08-2001).]

[PatS]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Endicott:
Gentlemen, I think Tom understood already what I´m talking about. You see he´s not answering.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As you know, people opt not to reply for numerous reasons. Your comment invokes the old adage: \"Tis better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak and remove all doubt.\" But many of us who have gotten to know Tom over the last few months understand that he\'s extremely busy and responds to queries when time permits. Still, another reason for his reticence may be that your attack doesn\'t warrant further comment. Read: the best way to deal with a bully is to avoid him.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Please stop answering where nobody asked you to.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If this really is between you and Tom, please talk to him privately. Otherwise, recognize that on this public forum we are free to \"answer\" anybody anytime.

Pat

[Tom Hopkins]

Endicott,

\"Gentlemen, I think Tom understood already what I´m talking about. You see he´s not answering.\"

He\'s not answering because he\'s not hovering over this forum to read the next accusatory post. So sorry, I\'m a busy guy and don\'t have time to hang around here. The only reason I even knew about this thread is because a third party alerted me to it (and just now made me aware of your response). And yes, now I know exactly what you\'re talking about. It\'s very simple: you\'re calling me a liar. Who could miss that? So, to reiterate (not that it will do any good): Those files are the real deal. In fact, Gary should send you a Christmas card this year because all of this nonsense is just succeeding in emphasizing just how successful the EXP approach is in the GOS library. As to your pointless graphs: I would actually have been surprised if you hadn\'t found similarities in the two examples; after all, the real crescendos-diminuendos and the samples in the simulated version were recorded at the same time, with the same players seated in the same chairs, the same distance from the mics, etc., etc. There should be close similarities, and there are. The first time I programmed an EXP instrument and ran that comparison I was left with my jaw dropping in amazement. I sent that MP3 file off to Gary (actually it was 2 files at that time) and said something like: \"Geez, Gary, you have to listen to this. This is going to be a simply stunning feature.\" And I still feel that way. What in the world would have been the point in faking a file like that when about 20 beta testers world-wide were soon going to have their hands on the library and would have immediately discovered the sham? Ridiculous. The beta testers have put the feature through its paces (and made many suggestions for improvements) and know full well the truth behind those crescendo-diminuendo files. You go ahead and keep posting your \"I see a doggy in the shape of the clouds\" graphics, but it changes nothing. Those files are genuine. And if I don\'t get back to you right away, please refrain from putting words in my mouth. I\'ve got better things to do than spar with you.

Hugs and kisses,

Tom

[Oksi Moron]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Horst:
Oksi,
I find this was very well done. The best thing I find in it is however not the legato of the leading violin themes. Your example shows very obviously that it is very difficult to get the legato sound right. The notes of the leading violins stand beside each other. There is a lack of \"flow\".
This might be improvable while truncating natural attacks of the samples and replacing them with artifical attack controlled via MIDI.Horst<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Horst,

Thank you so much for your positive and civil criticism. I would very much like to discuss with you the merits and shortcomings of the technique I used to produce this rendering -- but in private, if you don\'t mind, because the last time I discussed some of my methods on this forum it led to some unpleasantness I would like to avoid bringing on again.

The legato thread attracted me in the first place because I had just finished reading some academic studies of the subject -- for example, John Strawn\'s Ph.D. dissertation called \"Modeling Musical Transitions\" -- and I thought I would be keen to discuss what I\'d learned -- or misunderstood, perhaps -- with some other folks. But the thread took another turn before I could start, and some of the acrimony in recent other threads is making me feel reluctant to post at all.

I don\'t pretend to be any more than a hobbyist with an unwholesome interest in the game of trompe l\'oreille, and I\'m aware that there are many people at this forum -- including even some people whose knowledge of orchestral music seems to come chiefly from the movies -- who have better ears than I do. Any nuggets of wisdom or experience you\'d be willing to cast my way would be gratefully received, and I promise not to call you names ;-) If you\'re willing to correspond with me, send email to dansereal@yahoo.com

Oksi

[Endicott]

..

[This message has been edited by Endicott (edited 09-08-2001).]

[IOComposer]

I still don\'t understand what Endicott is getting at because he has some sort of spastic emotional problem and can\'t make a point, but I was thinking that he was complaining about the phasing problem that occurs when a sample is crossfaded with another example. And he\'s right! I find this problem all of the time when crossfading samples, but it\'s the nature of the beast at this time, I think. Endicott has some valid complaints about Giga technology having phase problems while velocity cross-fading which he claims don\'t plague Halion. I don\'t have any experience with Halion, but my guess is that it won\'t successfully crossfade between samples either without phase problems.
However, the problem with Endicott\'s complaints are the fact that this phasing is insignificant in a musical context. It may look bad on a waveform in an A/B comparison, however it doesn\'t really sound bad. Slap some reverb on it and the problem is moot.

\"hugs and kisses\" LOL! http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif
-J

[Oksi Moron]

PS to Horst:

Not sure whether your very kind comments were based on barber3.mp3 or my latest version, which is
http://www.stanford.edu/~gmsmith/mp3/barber8.mp3 (\"http://www.stanford.edu/~gmsmith/mp3/barber8.mp3\")

At this point I honestly can\'t tell whether I\'m making progress or going backwards. In any case, 171 downloads have been made of barber3.mp3. I hope people aren\'t keeping it as a model of what [i]not[i] to do!

You\'re right about its being mixed fairly dry.

Please do let me hear from you, dansereal@yahoo.com

Oksi

[Chadwick]

Jamey,

I can\'t remember where I read it, but isn\'t the phasing problem in Giga to do with the fact that at a certain point the crossfade function has the two signals at equal power? Isn\'t there also some issue with phase locking the samples? I\'m sure someone suggested a way around it, but I can\'t for the life of me remember where it was. Maybe it was Warren T?

Anyway, I don\'t think that was Endicott\'s prob. He was just pointing out that because the samples phase cancel a lot they must be the same sample. But as most of us know, and Tom pointed out, put two DIFFERENT takes of the same instrument with the same mic in the same room up against each other and you\'ll get a degree of phase cancelling. Basically it just proves that the GOS programming is bloody good.

[IOComposer]

Hey Chadwick.
I\'m not an expert on these matters, but I don\'t think that the problem is due to 50% of both samples, because when I crossfade in ProTools, I do non-linear crossfades and I still get crappy results. Most of my exprience in this area comes from brass. When trying to crossfade a mf trumpet to a f trumpet, it just sounds like another trumpet fading into the mix instead of a single trumpet morphing timbres. I have yet to figure out how to deal with this, but it seems that some sort of morphing technology (as Endicott suggested in an earlier thread) would be a possible solution.
-J

[Chadwick]

Yeah, I think that Endicott\'s approach is really the ultimate way to go.

Mind you, I can\'t see how today\'s PC is going to handle it at the same time as it\'s trying to stop from dropping to its knees in an attempt to play 160 voice streams, 64 midi channels and a pot pourri of audio tracks!

[gigaDiga]

testing 1 2 3,

Hmmm I posted a comment on this thred (don\'t worry no great intellectual essay or anything) but it hasn\'t appeared. Just wondering if there might be just a tiny weeny tad of censorship going on. This would be strange as my comment was merely about how this sample libraries forum never fails to amuse me, often bubbling up with little childish ego\'s who storm off in a huff. This, surely, is far short of some of the slander which other authors have been penning here? It is therefore strange to find my comment lost or rather not found...

?