Zimmer and The Planets

[Thomas_J]

Old news Damon http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif

Indeed Hans Zimmer\'s battle track from the Gladiator is remarkably similar to Holst\'s \"Mars\" music.

Said Hans in a recent interview:

\"On the Hannibal album, there\'s a piece that\'s about 7-minutes long, and it\'s 2-minutes long in the film. It\'s a very Mahler-esque piece. Everyone wants to know that I steal from Holst, well I steal from Mahler too!\" (laughs)

\"To argue that Gladiator is a Holst rip-off is boring\" - anybody can tell that he influenced it - \"it doesn\'t make you very smart! It\'s easy to point at those things, just as it\'s easy to point to Holst - when really I meant Vaughan Williams!!\" (laughs)


I didn\'t think the world of the battle music in the gladiator, and I don\'t know whether it is due to the holst-\"ripoff\" or if it\'s just too incoherent. Don\'t get me wrong, I think it works great in the movie. It\'s just that 10 minutes of action music, as heard on the cd, gets a bit tiresome on my ears.

The rest of the music on The Gladiator score cd by far outshines the heavy action sequences. Incredible music.
Still I believe that Hans wrote some of his finest music yet, with the \"Heart of a volunteer\" track on the Pearl Harbor score. But that\'s just me.

Btw does anybody know why Lisa Gerrard was disqualified in the Academy Awards?

[This message has been edited by Thomas_J (edited 07-31-2001).]

[Simon Ravn]

As long as you\'re just influenced and not ripping off whole parts of something I don\'t have a problem with it - afterall everybody have been doing that from the beginning of mankind. Thomas - I think Pearl Harbor sums up very well how the worst score for a movie should sound: No recognizable themes, smeared in huuuuuuuuuge string sections that just seem to go on playing for like 120 minutes without a single break. The score made the movie even worse than the movie was.

[Thomas_J]

I don\'t have a problem with that either. Like you said, it\'s been like that since the beginning of mankind. People have always been influencing each other.

Regarding your view on the Pearl Harbor score, well that\'s how different we are. I loved the Pearl Harbor score, and there is indeed a memorable theme. Listen to the last track on the cd once more and tell me that is not great music. I was humming that very theme when I left the cinemas. The movie was good as well. Frankly I don\'t see why everyone is bashing this movie. I thought it was much better than anything else I\'ve seen recently and that includes:
The Mummy 2
Traffic
Memento
Tomb Raider

I guess I just tend to like the \"grand\" Hollywood blockbusters with _good_ epic scores.

The return of the Mummy was just silly and the characters were annoying. The music was less than ok.

Traffic had an okey plot and a few original twists. The music was crappy and boring and the movie wasn\'t all that interesting in the end.

Tomb Raider had a cool story and some nice special fx\'s. Too bad the music sucked. What\'s with all these god d*mned rock/pop songs they keep cramming into soundtracks nowadays?

Anyway, I don\'t care if the love story is somewhat thin. It\'s still a good movie. And the special fx\'s are to die for :=) And so is Zimmer\'s music.

Thomas

[This message has been edited by Thomas_J (edited 07-31-2001).]

[apessino]

I was not a huge fan of Zimmer\'s work, with the possible exception of his score for The Lion King, until I heard his score for The Thin Red Line. What a masterpiece that is!

As a whole The Thin Red Line was a mixed bag for me. Moments of absolute brilliance nearly denied by an equal number of flaws, first and foremost the director\'s inability (lack of musical sensibility, perhaps?) to really exploit the phenomenal score Zimmer created for him. If only they had spared us those trite voiceovers and let the music come forward instead..

When I first heard the score I could not believe that it was penned by Zimmer.. it is a complete departure from Zimmer\'s \"action\" formulas, a model of restraint and understatement, the kind of music Philip Glass wishes he could write.. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif

Besides the beautiful theme in \"Journey to the Line\" (oh man.. I get chills just thinking about it) nearly every other track has something unique to say, with Zimmer demonstrating a gift for pacing and development you rarely hear from film composers.

After the triumph which Red Line was, I found much of Zimmer\'s production to be a disappointment (relatively speaking, of course). I really didn\'t care much for Gladiator; while it was certainly well crafted, there wasn\'t anything in it I hadn\'t heard before, and I _really_ disliked Pearl Harbor, which I think is Zimmer\'s worst piece to date. Of course, I think the movie was an offensive piece of crap as well, so that tends to affect one\'s perception of the score. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif

Anyhow, if you haven\'t heard The Thin Red Line yet, give it a serious listen, it\'s truly extraordinary IMHO. Cheers,

A-

--------
Andrea G. Pessino (not female, just Italian)
Blizzard Entertainment

apessino@blizzard.com

[apessino]

>>
Btw does anybody know why Lisa Gerrard was disqualified in the Academy Awards?
<<

The academy has rules that restrict eligibility to those which contribute more than a certain percentage of a score. I don\'t know the exact number, but I know that she didn\'t qualify because her contributions weren\'t substantial enough to allow her to share the nomination with Zimmer (the last time that happened was with Last Of the Mohicans, if I remember correctly, when Trevor Jones and Randy Edelman shared a nomination).

Bye,

A-

[Thomas_J]

Thanks for clearing up that academy awards stuff.

I agree, the music for The Thin Red Line was exceptionally beautiful, but only the 3rd track. Journey to the line I believe. Definitely a huge suprise. I still think the music in Pearl Harbor is equally stunning. That\'s just me of course. And everyone else seem to disagree with me. I\'d like to see some of you (like Simon and you) compose music anywhere near the quality of Zimmer\'s music for Pearl Harbor (or anything else he\'s done recently) before you bash it like you do (calling it crap etc). Of course everyone\'s entitled to their own opinion. Let\'s hear some of your achievements.

Thomas

[Simon Ravn]

Thomas, first of all I\'ve never understood the notion of \'Why don\'t you do it better yourself\' as an answer to critique of others work. Afterall, Hans Zimmer gets paid zillions to compose music - I don\'t, so he should be better. Having said that, I think I could do some stuff that is as bad as Pearl Harbor.. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

[apessino]

Thomas,

I didn\'t call Zimmer\'s music for Pearl Harbor crap, just not his most inspired work. I called the movie itself crap, and that\'s just my opinion.. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif you are quite welcome to disagree.

And I certainly never suggested I could do better than Zimmer, I can only wish!

Take care,

A-

[Thomas_J]

Good! Those were the answers I was hoping for http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

Anyway, I wonder. You call Pearl Harbor a crappy movie. Just out of curiousity, what would be a suitable word for a movie such as Jurassic Park III then?

Well Simon, I guess you\'re one of those who enjoyed John William\'s score to A.I more than Pearl Harbor. Fair enough, but the A.I score doesn\'t have a more memorable theme/score than Pearl Harbor imho, and it is somewhat boring at times as well. Of course everybody is praising it since it was composed by John Williams. It actually features some of the most annoying writing from John Williams in a long time. I\'m talking about the solo female voice. I still haven\'t been able to sit through that track. Anyway, you\'re up for a big task if you think you can do as well as Zimmer did in Pearl Harbor :=) Good luck! You\'ll definitely need it! http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif

Oh and what\'s your opinion on the \"The Thin Red Line\" score, Simon?

Thomas

[This message has been edited by Thomas_J (edited 07-31-2001).]

[Simon Ravn]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Thomas_J:
Good! Those were the answers I was hoping for http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

Well Simon, I guess you\'re one of those who enjoyed John William\'s score to A.I more than Pearl Harbor. Fair enough, but the A.I score doesn\'t have a more memorable score than Pearl Harbor imho, and it is somewhat boring at times as well. Of course everybody is praising it since it was composed by John Williams. And it actually features some of first annoying writing from John Williams in a long time. I\'m talking about the solo female voice. I still haven\'t been able to sit through that track. Anyway, you\'re up for a big task if you think you can do as well as Zimmer did in Pearl Harbor :=) Good luck! You\'ll definitely need it! http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif

Oh and what\'s your opinion on the \"The Thin Red Line\" score, Simon?

Thomas<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don\'t understand why you don\'t like A.I. - and it certainly has at least one very good theme, which IMHO can\'t be said of PH. I hummed NOTHING when I left that movie, and I was irritated by the score through most of the movie. I am not a big fan of the vocal version of Monicas Theme either but I think the rest of the score is awesome and incredibly atmospheric....

I haven\'t heard A Thin Red Line so I can\'t comment on that. I loved Zimmers score for Prince of Egypt, and his work for As Good As it Gets is surprisingly understated for Zimmer. But Gladiator and PH.. .noooooooo thanks.

I have already done something as kind of a joke on Pearl Harbor.. you\'ll be able to listen to it one day http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

[MikeGraybill]

I first started following Mr Zimmer\'s career after I sat awed at what he\'d done with Crimson Tide. In fact, it\'s led me down the path towards the world of sampled music. His lack of formal education intruigued me, because it was a success story and bottom line for composers all over, I think. In tuth, I\'d say he is a brilliant man, with an exceptional gift of insight and taste. These attributes fueled his way into a life most of us could only dream about.

Do I think he\'s the most extrodinary writer I\'ve ever heard? (for film) No, not really. I\'ve always liked a \"crowd pleaser\" and he writes them well. I find Edelman\'s work on Mohicans astonishing, and SO many peices from Horner\'s work to be pinacles of what can be achieved when helping to tell a story. But Hans... He decided to do something and inovated a way to make it all happen. That\'s gotta demand some respect I think. There\'s a reason he\'s gotten the informal title the \"father of sampled music.\" And it gives me hope in my own career, and reminds me: It won\'t matter how much formal education I end up having when I\'m all done - Without taste and an understanding of the sutbleties of a story and peoples minds, it\'ll never happen, and I\'d better find a \"second best\" choice for my chosen profession.

btw - I don\'t think we should ever expect to be able to simply rip the music from a film and have it stand on it\'s own. The music is as much a part of the overall endeavor as the picture is, and neither would be very good on there own. Even the best works, though sometimes fun to listen to, are fairly shoddy when compared to most peices of music that were designed to stand alone. Hence, one could never compare Horner to Beethoven. It just isn\'t an even comparison.

Mike - TheOverlyOpinionated

[apessino]

All right, this is getting FUN.. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif

MichaelAngelo450,

those are some very wise words. I for one agree with you completely, and while I would never advocate lack of formal training (as a guy who spent 18 years in music schools, it would be impossible for me to do so) I certainly agree that without that magical something called \"talent\" no amount of mental exercising is going to make a difference. Do I think that Hans Zimmer, whom obviously has talent to spare, would have been a better composer with formal training? Yes.. maybe.. actually, I have no idea.. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif I am certain he would have not been any worse, tho\'..

I think everyone here shares the same admiration for all of the composers we have mentioned. In different ways, and perhaps to different extents, they all represent the best in the challenging art of scoring to picture and they all have inspired \"wannabes\" (said without negative connotations http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif ) like most of us here.

I also love Edelman\'s work. Last of the Mohicans for sure, and how about Dragonheart? Gettysburg? Dragon, The Bruce Lee Story? As I\'ve said, one can only wish.. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif

And finally, your comment about concert music vs. film music is very valid, and very complex. Composers who perfect their craft for the concert hall tend to develop a different set of skills, such as the ability to control form and flow (hence my earlier comment about Zimmer\'s stunning work for The Thin Red Line), while film composers rarely can afford the time to be subtle, as the emotional message of the film must be reinforced immediately, indeed \"to picture.\"

This is why for certain films it\'s much wiser on the director\'s part to choose composers from the concert world. Think of \"The Red Violin,\" for example. John Corigliano delivered what is, in my opinion, the greatest film score of the past twenty years, and I honestly don\'t think any of the main film composers could have pulled that off as well as he did.

In The Red Violin the music really was the centerpiece of the picture, and as such it needed the kind of complex treatment someone accustomed to formal development can bring. Then again, Corigliano worked on the score for over a year, and even had a concert suite ready before the film even opened!

Cheers,

A-

[apessino]

>>
Anyway, I wonder. You call Pearl Harbor a crappy movie. Just out of curiousity, what would be a suitable word for a movie such as Jurassic Park III then?
<<

Silly but fun? http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif I work for a company owned by Vivendi Universal, so I will just leave it at that..

Seriously, I think the difference here is that JPIII is obviously a fantasy, whether it\'s worth 8 bucks to see it I don\'t know. Pearl Harbor is a different story, it is that \"Cliff Notes\" approach to history which bugs the living crap out of me. Thousands of people died that day, I think they deserve better than they got in this movie..

And before you scream \"Titanic\" http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif I will say that I don\'t mind movies made about historical facts with fictional elements dropped in to provide context or even entertainment. But if you choose to do so, then you must give me _something_ for it, and you must treat your subject matter with great respect. In Titanic I got to learn into astonishing detail what it must have been like to be there that night. It really opened up a window into that world and allowed people to get closer to the event. I just didn\'t feel that PH did the same, that\'s all. Once again, your mileage might vary, and as my ancestors used to say \"De gustibus non disputandum est.\" http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif

Take care,

A-

[Damon]

Just an interesting thing I listened to today. Have you guys ever listened to \'Mars, the bringer of war\' from The Planets by Holst? Listen to how close \'The Battle\' from Gladiator sounds in some parts. Very interesting. The battle scene in the beginning obviously was temped with Holst.

[Damon]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by apessino:
[B]In The Red Violin the music really was the centerpiece of the picture, and as such it needed the kind of complex treatment someone accustomed to formal development can bring. Then again, Corigliano worked on the score for over a year, and even had a concert suite ready before the film even opened!

I was kinda hoping Thomas Newman would have won for American Beauty that year. The music just worked very well with the movie. Newman always finds such a great palette of sounds to work with. That\'s just my opinion though because I like what Newman does. It\'s fresh and extremely creative.
I never really was to fond of The Red Violin, besides Joshua Bells amazing violin work. None of the music stuck in my head. The same with Crouching Tiger last year. A good score especially Yo Yo Ma\'s playing but IMO Gladiator was more memorable and I think Zimmer did a fine job but that\'s just my opinion again. Track 14, \"Am I Not Merciful?\" is a great cue especially at the end with the big choir. Also, I noticed no mention of a choir in the Gladiator liner notes. Could those have been samples? If so, Zimmer has quite a library of stuff. The choir sounds amazing.
Andrea, I have to agree with you on \"Journey to the Line\". Zimmer did some fine composing there. I get chills listening to it as well and I thought it worked extremely well with the Pearl Harbor trailor that was shown in the movies before it came out. I never saw Pearl Harbor so I can\'t comment on it (I can\'t stand Ben Afleck).
It\'s very interesting to see everybodys different opinions on music.
Oh, and Thomas, I knew about Gladiator and The Planets a while back from viewing the Film Score Monthly webpage, I just never listened to \"Mars, the bringer of war.\" I thought it might be interesting for those who haven\'t heard it, like myself, to take a listen and see the similarities. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif
[This message has been edited by Damon (edited 08-01-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Damon (edited 08-01-2001).]

[Thomas_J]

Damon I wasn\'t complaining, I was just contributing with a little piece of an interview to make the topic even more interesting http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

Urgh. The Red Violin. I didn\'t like that score, and I probably never will. I don\'t know why though, it could be that it is too minimalistic for my taste. As you probably see by now, I tend to like heavy brass and large orchestras. Grand themes and exotic instruments. Complex orchestrations (most of the time). That\'s me, and that\'s why I\'m in love with film music. Bach, Brahms, Haydn, Mozart, Puccini, Händel, Vivaldi etc.. they never did anything for me, except Mozart\'s requiem. I never get chills down my spine when I listen to those composers. They might have been brilliant composers and masters at orchestration, but it\'s not my taste in music. Now, if someone were to mention Mahler, R. Strauss, Bruckner, Wagner, Holst..... weeehheeeee http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif that\'s something else! It\'s grand, it\'s epic, stuffed with great themes, huge and complex orchestrations and never less than 8 horns http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif

Thomas

[This message has been edited by Thomas_J (edited 08-01-2001).]

[Thomas_J]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by apessino:

Seriously, I think the difference here is that JPIII is obviously a fantasy, whether it\'s worth 8 bucks to see it I don\'t know. Pearl Harbor is a different story, it is that \"Cliff Notes\" approach to history which bugs the living crap out of me. Thousands of people died that day, I think they deserve better than they got in this movie..
A-<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

They got great music by Hans Zimmer! what more could they wish for? http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif Like I said, his music is to die for. Pun intended http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/grin.gif

Thomas

[Damon]

I found your interview to be very interesting Thomas and I appreciate you posting it http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif.
I guess I was a little surprised when I realized that Zimmer had such a great song to work with as a 10 minute long battle cue. I thought and I quote \"All of the ideas come from my head\" which he said at the Oscars to Joan Rivers. So I remember thinking, well damn he\'s a pretty incredible composer to have composed \"The Battle\" without having any formal training and not have to actually write the music but just sit down and sequence it.
I still like his work but was a little shocked at the similarities of \"Mars\" and \"The Battle\" when I finally heard it yesterday.
I guess in the amount of time these guys have to score such large epic films, they sometimes need a template to help with the process. As long as it\'s not a complete rip-off, I don\'t mind that.
It just amazes me of the brilliance of the older composers such as Wagner, Korngold, Mozart, and Shostakovich. These guys were truly musical geniuses and brilliant orchestrators.
Hey Thomas, glad to hear I\'m not the only one who wasn\'t crazy about The Red Violin. I thought I might get blasted for saying that here. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif

[leadbelly]

You know, its amazing how different we all are in our musical tastes. The writers on this post are all so diverse; we love the music that inspires, compells, challenges, soothes us...

My personal favorite movie themes include \"The Last of the Mohicans\" , \"Schindler\'s list\" and \"The Thin Red line\". Zimmer is very good, but I prefer the work of John Williams and Edelman..that\'s just my bias.

I also loved \"The Red Violin\" as a movie...I was not overly impressed with the score itself, although the solo violin parts were excellent.

Peace,

leadbelly

[Dis]

Simon: What? Pearl Harbor - worst score for a movie should sound, no recognizable themes?
It\'s so very nice score, very atmospherical and expressive. It\'s just the purpose that the themes are such misty-like. When I was listening to it first time, I also wasn\'t too impressed, but after more listening I discovered how nice are some of the themes..

[Bruce A. Richardson]

And then there is that magical turning point, like the flipping of a switch, where the taste of Chateau Lafite becomes preferable to Mountain Dew... http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/tongue.gif

[KingIdiot]

Hey look Blast from the Past.

Next we\'ll start hearing about Black Hawk Down....

Which I saw and didn\'t like. And am so perterbed by thte fact that I dislikedit and everyone I know seemed to like it and that its getting great reviews that I really want to go see it again and see if I was just having a bad day.


Next Up The debacle that is The Queen of the Damned. If I can force myself to not think of the book,, turn my brain off and maybe have a few drinks...who knows it might be a good flick!

Maybe I\'ll like it better than mountain dew.....not likely tho http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif


------------------
Really...I am an Idiot

[This message has been edited by KingIdiot (edited 02-17-2002).]

[PeterRoos]

Re: \"Mars - bringer of war\" / \"The Battle\"
(good material for a musical quiz, I\'d say)

It\'s a pity that Hans did not play with the 5/4 meter of Mars, which gives it an more limping feel than the 3/4 from the Battle (aka The Walz).

JW used a short 5/4 piece in the 2nd half of the Check Game from Harry Potter (another battle theme) that also reminds me of Holst\'s Mars.

[Joris de Man]

I\'m surprised nobody noticed the similarity to Vangelis\' 1492 theme at the beginning of \'The Battle\', if I recall correctly (complete with choir humming in unison).
Personally, I thought Pearl Harbor was a very poor score, Thomas_J, and if you\'ve listened to the Thin Red Line, you\'ll understand why. I remember reading in an interview with Zimmer that the whole movie was temptracked with Thin Red Line, and that they even considered directly taking parts of it to use on Pearl Harbor because it worked so well for them.
The theme for the track called \'Brothers\' (or something like that; I listened to it in the shop and ended up not buying because I didn\'t want to pay for the same soundtrack twice; I already had TRL http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif ) really does sound like a poor man\'s version of one of the major TRL themes.
On the other hand, I loved the soundtrack for Hannibal, and imho TRL remains one of his classics.
Zimmer\'s big sound is probably unequalled in soundtrackland, and he surely is a master of midiorchestration; but I\'d never call him a true original.
Although A.I does have its shortcomings, I really liked the Reich inspired first track.

The question that really keeps me pondering though, is when is something \'inspired by\' and when is it just really a ripoff of an existing track?

...

[dandean]

This may be just a bit off the topic, but has anyone listened to any of Erich Korngold\'s scores like \"The Sea Wolf\"? Any similarities noted?

DD

[Neal Keane]

The question that really keeps me pondering though, is when is something \'inspired by\' and when is it just really a ripoff of an existing track?


\"inspired by\" is when you write something you like and only notice later that it\'s similar to something else...\"ripoff\" is when you notice it\'s similar but continue to work on it anyway (hoping like hell that it\'s different enough)

Of course, this concerns melody only...IMO there\'s no such thing as ripping off a chord progression, orchestration technique, or style.

[Neal Keane]

Just saw Black Hawk Down this evening...I wish Ridley Scott would have left well enough alone with the Enya-like vocalizations. They worked with Gladiator because of the timeless nature of ancient history, but BHD needed something much more contemporary (some chaotic world music would have been nice)...even the Jimi Hendrix-like guitars seemed out of place. Hans, or whoever he handed it off to, seems to have dropped the ball on this one.

[Chadwick]

\"Inspired by\" Vs \"Ripped off\":

I\'ve heard stories about certain well known producers of 80s Brit pop hits who supposedly copied established classic hits, and got away with it because (then) British law determined plagiarism in terms of a certain number of sequential notes of the melody. If the measure of plagiarism was 8 notes identical in both melodies, they\'d use seven, and change the eighth.

This could, of course, be an international urban myth.

Locally (here in Oz), I\'ve been told the test for plagiarism is far more subjective, but fairer (in my opinion).

The story goes that both pieces in question are auditioned, and if those auditioning think they are listening to the original, when they are listening to the \'rip off\', then it\'s plagiarism.

I think that\'s a lot fairer to the composer of the original piece than the old British law (which has probably been changed by now anyway).

I\'ll never forget the day an ad creative showed me their legal advice on whether they could do a \'sound alike\' of a chart song. Basically the advice said they could copy the song as long as the melody, chords and rhythm were completely different. (At least that left them with the instrumentation.)

How good was that law firm - telling the client what they wanted to hear (\'go ahead\'), but still managing to stop them from actually doing it!

(The agency still tried to talk us into it)

[Thomas_J]

Dan Dean: yes! Not to mention King\'s Row! That score has to be Williams\' inspiration source for Star Wars. They are similar, but not THAT similar of course. Korngold has written some good music.

Joris De Man: I have heard and enjoyed Thin Red Line as a score, but except track 3 (\"the lagoon\" I think), it\'s pretty boring. I enjoyed Pearl Harbor simply because the theme was well written and there was a true heartfelt musicality from Zimmer. He wasn\'t trying to be original in any way and it worked well. It\'s a good score and I still give it 6-7/10. My true favorite Zimmer-score (along with Muppet Treasure Island and Beyond Rangoon) is without doubt his Prince of Egypt score. Lovely stuff. I love the climax with the high notes in the horns.
Incredible.

I would be very careful about dissing any composer who\'s better than yourself http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif Unless you can do it better I don\'t think (from a composer\'s point of view) you have the \"right\" to give it a less than fair review.

Thomas

[Joris de Man]

I would be very careful about dissing any composer who\'s better than yourself http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif Unless you can do it better I don\'t think (from a composer\'s point of view) you have the \"right\" to give it a less than fair review.

Thomas[/B][/QUOTE]

I\'m sorry but that\'s just silly nonsense. This would mean that magazines like Premiere and Empire can\'t publish negative reviews about films, because their reviewers (who might be budding directors themselves) might not be able to direct a better film, Keyboard reviewers can\'t give low marks to a bad piece of gear because they couldn\'t make a better one, or I can\'t dislike a dish in a restaurant since although I enjoy cooking, I might not be able to cook it any better...etc. etc.

If you\'re a composer yourself, you\'ll have a better understanding of harmony, counterpoint, and all the elements that go into composing a theme. This, in turn, will make you more critical about music (both your own and others), because you understand what\'s going on and why something works (or not). So, being a composer, you\'ll probably have much more convincing and well thought out arguments for liking or disliking a piece of music than Joe Public, who can only base their argument on a gut feeling (although this is important too http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif)

Secondly, don\'t mistake \'succesful\' with \'good\' (unless you\'re only in it for the money http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif). I agree that a lot of stuff from Zimmer (and other filmcomposers for that matter) is really good, and sometimes he does things that I\'d wish I could write too, but that doesn\'t mean that he hasn\'t written some bad music as well; the fact that he\'s really succesful at it doesn\'t make him untouchable and therefore free of any criticism from members of this forum (whether they are composers or not).

It reminds me a bit of the thread about samplelibrary makers such as Nick Phoenix who commented on other libraries; some people reasoned that developers shouldn\'t comment on other libs, but the fact that Nick commented on it as a user in my opinion made his arguments valid.
So, for me, the same goes for music. I\'ll call it like I see it:P

Cheers,

Joris de Man

[notejockey]

You all are missing a huge point in this discussion of derivative concepts in film music:

As a film/tv composer, it is my job to write a score that serves the picture and ultimately achieves the sound and/or effect desired by the director and/or producer. If it is possible to service my musical desires and goals at the same time, so much the better. But my job is to write music to serve the film while pleasing the director and producer, not me.

Films are temp scored with classical music, existing scores, and songs. Directors and producers frequently fall in love with the temp. Whenever temp love is involved things get complicated. I always try to write cues that are wholly original yet capture the element of the temp the director/producer loves (pacing, strong melody, etc.). Sometimes they love my cue. Other times they are so taken with the temp that rewrites of these cues are requested until, despite my best efforts, the cue is very similar. I\'ve even seen it happen that they throw out the original score completely and license the music used to temp the scene. It happens to all of us.

Completely original, non-derivative music is certainly my goal (and one shared by most of my peers). Some jobs allow for more originality or more collaboration. Different directors and production companies allow varying amounts of autonomy in creating the score. But the bottom line is that a film/tv composer needs to deliver what the director and producer want. If they aren\'t happy with the score, you don\'t get hired again.

[Thomas_J]

Joris: I disagree. Say a reviewer of Film scores (who happened to be a composer himself) gave Hans Zimmer\'s Thin Red Line a 2/10 and said: \"Boring and weak\" , backing it up based on a lot of technical details as perceived from his \"composer point of view\". Sure, he might dislike the score, and the score might not be worth more than 2/10 by modern film score standards, but should he still be allowed to say the composer and his music is bad? Unless he could do better I would suggest he kept his review to himself. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif That\'s just my thought. I get easily annoyed by critics. With all the great film music that is coming out nowadays I think it is only fair to say \"okey, the music didn\'t blow me away, but he\'s a great composer.\" - and still give the score a 1/10, because it didn\'t do anything revolutionary, and compared to other scores it could have been better. But that 1/10 grade would probably equal 90/100 if he were to judge the music by his OWN compositional skills as a comparison. There\'s a reason why he\'s just a reviewer and not a great film music composer.

Same thing with the CGI animated troll in LoTR. Couple of friends of mine said \"That troll sucked! It didn\'t look good at all!\", and one of them is a 3d gfx artist. So I replied \"well, do it better!!\". The troll might not be 100% realistic looking, but it is a million times better than what he could ever do.

I listen to pretty much any film score I can get my hands on, and I am always impressed by them. These hollywood composers are all professionals and should be judged on a professional level. I don\'t bother to listen to anyone who says things suck, unless they can do it better themselves. They may dislike it, but the actual compositional material is light-years ahead of them in every respect and that does not give them the right to say it\'s \"downright horrible.\".

My point is: there\'s a significant difference between a \"John Doe\" opinion and someone in the same game.
Anyone who is in the same business as you should not bash your stuff unless he/she thinks he/she can do better. If he wants to bash it he should assume (sink to) \"John Doe\" mode and talk about the work from a completely unbiased and clear mind. Get it? http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif That\'s my opinion anyway.

I love film music and every time I listen to a film music score I just think to myself, \"D*mn this is good. I wish I could write like this\". Whether it\'s Williams, Goldsmith, Silvestri, Zimmer, Beltrami, Elfman etc. If there\'s something I dislike I simply ignore it. I don\'t bother to bash the music because I am in no position to do so. I don\'t think anyone should be bashing other artist\'s work if they couldn\'t do better themselves. That\'s just how I feel. I know most people don\'t feel like this.

Simon: I don\'t think Jerry Goldsmith writes as simple as you may think. Try mocking up something he has written (Dennis the menace fx.) and you\'ll quickly realize that it isn\'t as simple as it sounds. Simplicity is often a key to good music anyway. I agree that John Williams writes much more interesting music (basically because of his attention detail in his orchestrations). It really makes the listening experience a lot more interesting, (again from a composers point of view).


Thomas

[Joris de Man]

Well, Thomas_J, I guess we disagree here. You should however, stick to your own rules; your first reply to my post stated that you thought the Thin Red Line was \'pretty boring\', so I suppose you can do it better! http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif
But really, I think being critical is actually a very good thing. It\'s necessary for your progression; I love the fact that on this group most people are critical and point things out in scores which they think are good and bad, because often it will make me sit up and take notice of the discussed (and scrutinezed) score and learn something from it, thus improving my own writing in the process.
Imagine somebody in this group posting a piece of music and asking for criticism; if his/her level was higher than your own, would you refrain from posting a comment eventhough you could think parts of it could be improved somehow?

Notejocky, I agree with you (and I\'m not missing the point, but this was a reply to another subject raised), and I think it is one of the main reasons I didn\'t like the score to Pearl Harbor. I read (after seeing the movie and being rather dissapointed with the score) that Bruckenheimer and Bay liked the temptrack so much (TRL) that they were even considering licensing tracks from it to use in the movie, because it worked so well in the trailer; so I guess Zimmer didn\'t get much artistic freedom at all.

Anyway, bottomline IMHO; the fact that I couldn\'t do it better (or could) doesn\'t make it (or any other score) a better score.

Joris

[Thomas_J]

Joris: Pretty boring, but a great score nevertheless (which certainly deserved an oscar which it unfortunately didn\'t get). As for doing better, I don\'t think I could do anything even remotely close to the greatness of that one track of the score (track 3 again).

If someone posted a piece that I thought was beyond my capacity as a composer I would congratulate him and tell him how much I enjoyed his composition. I wouldn\'t begin to pick on him. Hope that clears things up a bit. I do this all the time in school. Some of my teachers write some incredible stuff.

Thomas

[Simon Ravn]

The \'theory\' (I call it a theory, yes) that you have to be able to do better yourself, if you dare criticise something is absurd. That\'s really all I need to say about this...

[Thomas_J]

Simon: tried mocking up any Goldsmith then? http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif

Seriously though, if you read what I wrote thoroughly I think you\'d understand what I mean.

I don\'t have anything against people who criticise music that is better than their own as long as they have very valid reasons to do so and give constructive critisism. Not just say \"It sucks.\". Of course constructive critisism is always a great thing to get, no matter who you get it from.
It\'s just the way I feel about it. I dislike reviewers because you can never trust them. The only thing you can trust is your ears and eyes, so you can be your own judge.

If you want absurd, I\'ll tell you what\'s absurd: Academy Awards, Oscars and Reviews.
Lots of hotshots sitting there telling the world what is best. Now THAT\'S absurd.

Thomas
(PS! I hope Harry Potter or A.I wins ! hehe http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

(Guys, as usual I\'m expressing radical views (somewhat exaggerated) to provoke discussion. I love how enthusiastic people on this forum gets, and with a few exceptions you don\'t flame people for expressing an opinion)

Keep the topic heated. I\'m going to bed after 9 hours straight of intensive composing in front of my monitors http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

Thomas

[Simon Ravn]

Thomas, I am not just talking about composition. I am talking about EVERYTHING. I have the right to criticise a movie, even though I am not a movie director myself. Movies can be bad, even if I cant make better movies. Music - the same. Food, the same, web pages - same thing. Well, I think you get the picture... http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif If you had to keep your opinions to yourself, unless you were ready to do something better yourself, the world would be a damn boring and ABSURD place.... http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

And no - I havent done and have no intentions to do any Goldsmith mockups. A couple of listens to First Knight and The Mummy was enough to confirm that I dont think Goldsmith is that good... Poltergeist is good. That\'s about the only Goldsmith score I like... Not that I\'ve heard them all. But Star Trek - please - sounds like (what it ALSO is) a cheap TV series... The Mummy=Noise with no meaning.

Give me Williams, Elfman, Thomas Newman, Mychael Danna, Alan Silvestri and even Randy Newman any time.

[jubal]

Yeah...Newman, Williams, and Silvestri. I have more CD\'s of those guys recently than anyone else. Oh...also Rachel Portman.

Hey, Michael Kamen\'s \'Dead Zone\' rocks!!

Regarding Goldsmith...he RULES!! C\'mon Simon..Planet of the Apes (original)..Chinatown...Tora Tora Tora...Patton...Omen...The Great Train Robbery...Alien...BARNABY JONES THEME http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif.

The man\'s a master...not always...but he defitely has played a huge part in defining the \'movie music\' genre. I love his harsh attacking strings, violent percussion, and percussive low-end piano rhythms...they define a lot of his music.

I was bummed when L.A. Confidential got the short end by Titanic. Reminded me of Chinatown.

Opinions...opinions

[Damon]

I like what Goldsmith did when he scored the original Twilight Zones as well http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif.
Chinatown has some great cues in it. \"Noah Cross\" is a great imaginative cue by Goldsmith.

[Neal Keane]

Simon, take a listen to some earlier Goldsmith like King Solomon\'s Mines...he was defining the use of chromatic mediant progressions and huge brass/percussion in film scores before Elfman.

Basic Instinct has one of the most haunting melody/progressions I\'ve heard.

While technically, John Williams stands above the crowd, both Goldsmith and Morricone can set moods and evoke emotions like no others.

[Damon]

I thought the score to A.I was good, but not that memorable. There are some fantastic cues like \"Cybertronics\" which has some great string counterpoint writing going on and \"Hide and Seek\" which was very imaginative with the casio-bell like sound to create the \"mecha\' feel of the boy playing a very odd, but waaay cool progression.
Still, I didn\'t walk out of the theater humming the piano theme to A.I. It was more loosely played and heartfelt, then a memorable theme (if that makes any sense).
A good theme is great and memorable obviously, but as long as the music works well with the film and doesn\'t over-emphasize what is already there, works for me.

[Simon Ravn]

I dont know how \'memorable\' the A.I. theme is, although I could hum it after hearing it once or twice on the CD (apparently being able to HUM a theme after hearing it as few times as possible defines how good it is... http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif), but the whole score was fantastic, especially in the movie. The choral work towards the end is amazingly haunting. \'Mecha World\' (1st on the CD) is awesome, and \'Abandoned in the Woods\' is also one of my favourites.

Maybe earlier Goldsmith is better. I mainly know his work from 90 and forward and I basically dont like any of it...

[Thomas_J]

The A.I score is indeed a masterpiece of composition. I love it. It is simply brilliant. I agree with Simon here.
Regarding Goldsmith I think he\'s a great composer as well. I simply LOVE the Mummy. The Imhotep track rocks!! Listen to the horns theme.. THAT is what I call dieselpowered horn players http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

Thomas

[ChrisAxia]

Hi guys,

Just to say that although overall I\'m more of a JW fan, I love alot of Goldsmiths work. apart from ones already mentioned, he did some wonderful melodic scores for \'Russia House\', \'Forever Young\' and \'Sleeping with the Enemy\'. Have a listen if you get the chance.

As for \'Star Trek\' being no good as someone mentioned, I think it is one of the most amazingly catchy Sci Fi themes ever! God, I wish I could write something like that. I\'ve seen Jerry 3 times in concert, and they were all great.

Chris

[Francis Belardino]

Hi all. May I jump in?

I just wanted to add a composer that was, I believe, not mentioned.

Randy Eledmen for Gettysburg and Last of the Mohicans.

My 2 favs.
My 2 cents.

3 fav. Glory.
4 fav. Bram Stockers - Dracula.
5 fav. Band of Brothers.

http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

[ChrisAxia]

Hey Francis,

Randy Edelman has written some great stuff. He did a really nice score for \'Daylight\', but the main theme from \'Last of the Mohicans\' was actually by Trevor Jones. I think Randy Edelman was called in to \'fix\' the parts the director wasn\'t happy with.

Chris

[Neal Keane]

Since we\'re talking about composers...

I was lucky enough to see James Newton Howard in action today at Todd-AO studios in Studio City. He\'s recording the score for Disney\'s new animation feature \"Treasure Planet\"...104 piece orchestra...really epic, Korngold-style swashbuckling cues...blew me away...totally!! http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

I asked him about his MIDI mock-ups...says he does every one of his cues himself...actually he creates the MIDI files as he composes...doesn\'t write them out anymore because of time constraints. He had his orchestrator, Jeff Armejian(?), actually write the score while another fellow sat on the soundstage with a laptop and printer pumping out last minute-changed parts.

It was interesting to note that while recording he was constantly making changes...mainly having to do with dynamic levels of either the strings or brass, and most of time reducing parts because, for example, the trumpets were covering up the horns, or the horns were too heavy for a tender moment, or the string crescendo was not ff enough.

Anyway, it appears \"orchestration balance\" is something to be wary of because it\'s hard to emulate with sample mixes.

JNH is one helluva composer (Unbreakable,The Fugitive, My Best Friend\'s Wedding) and a real down-to-earth nice guy. Going back for more tomorrow. Hope to find out about those Dinosaur demo samples. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

Neal

[PatS]

I\'m glad someone finally mentioned James Newton Howard. He\'s done some great work, including Dinosaur, which I watched with my kids just the other day (well, they watched, and I listened). A friend of mine heard JNH talk about the recording process, including the need to make last minute changes, not only in orchestration but also in the length of the cues themselves. Quite unnerving if you ask me, but that\'s why these guys get the big bucks . . . and my undying admiration.

Pat

[KingIdiot]

remember that alot of timing issues in film can be taken care of in the Studio in the mix process, with edits. And in fact is done this way sometimes.

I think one learns places where you can edit without it wounding pretty bad.

I did an animation score which was tweaked throughout and on the last day I found different edits totalling of up to 5 seconds of difference to the score that I had \"finished\" and that they approved. they did these edits without letting me know and with disregard to the musical cues. I was quite pissed. So I jsut did the fixes in the audio stage. I found that really \"open\" parts took well to being made shorter with crossfade variations. Choirs and clusters were also a good point. This kind of stuff usually goes unnoticed in the movies. Its only when you compareto a CD recording of a score do you realize the different edits and different cues used.

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Really...I am an Idiot