PRV-view - question to "SONAR masters"

[Raymond62]

SONAR 8.5.3. Prod.....

PRV on a track. I inherited from older sources a midi file with lots and lots of GPO controls on all possible channels, e.g. CC1 on channel 1 as well as on channel 6, CC64 on channels 1,2 and 5, etc.... To streamline things I'd set all those controls with Interpolation function on the channel I gave assigning that instrument to ARIA player.

Let us say that everything, including the notes has channel 2. I checked that in the Event view, and indeed everything is there on channel 2. Later I deleted all CC64's because they weren't at the right place and it seemed easier to draw them again instead of editing. Again the event list didn't show any CC64 anymore.

And now .....

http://www.box.net/shared/static/fkhiaetzsg.jpg

When working in PRV at the track and clicking on the area where you see the pencil, a popup window comes showing me all sorts of CC's on various channels, as if I didn't do that editing. Even the CC64 is there, while I checked and double-checked in the Event list.

How on earth is this possible and where does it come from. The Event list doesn't show those events and channels, everything is on CH.2, while here it seems .... yes, what?

Raymond
[that's why the other thread isn't cooked up, Randy. I have to sort this out first]

[rbowser-]

It can get very confusing when dealing with some MIDI tracks. Recently there was a thread at Sonar on this issue of how in the main PRV, there can be so many lanes of data that the view is too cramped to see anything. When you take a closer look, some lanes will be totally blank. You can close all of the ones you don't want to see, leaving just the few you're actually wanting to work with. BUT if you leave the PRV and come back, all of the tracks will be visible again, even the empty ones. - It's a problem.

But here's something you may not know. In the Event List View, the 4th button from the right is "Show Cropped." When you click that, you're likely to get many more things listed. Those pieces of data are on sections of a track you thought you deleted, or you got out of view by collapsing the track down. When we cut from a track or narrow it down, the data won't be used in the project, but it's still there. We can be totally unaware that it's still actually lurking. But by clicking Show Cropped in the Event List - all that hidden data can be revealed and edited out.

Randy

[Raymond62]

You opened my eyes. I now have a better view of the Event List. What ever I do, I can't get those controls with channel 1 (or else) set to channel 2, apart from doing them one by one by hand.

http://www.box.net/shared/static/debmz4prsm.jpg

I can select them, but I can't delete them in one go, nor can I change them in one go with the Interpolate function.

Raymond

[rbowser-]

Two things:

--When you have a MIDI track that has data on several different MIDI channels, you don't need to do any editing to get them all on the same channel.

In Sonar, there is a header to the left of every track. That's where you direct in the In and Out for the track, and other info.

Instead of "none" for MIDI Channel, set it to the appropriate channel. That forces all data in that track to then be out put on only that one channel, so it can control the instrument you want.

BUT if you want things tidy in PRV, you will still see all of those different channels listed because you haven't done any destructive editing to the track. You have merely programmed Sonar to play all that data on only one channel.

Usually people are happy to simply do that - specify a channel. Then it makes no difference what channel things have been recorded on.

SECOND - Using Interpolate Can change the channel for everything if you want it to. I just now double checked myself to make sure I have this right. You must be doing something incorrectly, since we can see in your screen shot that you still have several different channels displayed in the Event List View.

Interpolate steps for changing everything to one channel:

--Select the track.
--Open Interpolate.
--On the first screen, CHANGE NOTHING. Click OK.
--On the second screen ("Event Filter - Replace") under "All Non-Special Events" change BOTH Minimum and Maximum to the one channel you want everything to be changed to.
--Click OK.
--Notes and all data will now have been changed to the one channel you selected.

Randy

[Raymond62]

It worked!!!! Huray!!!

Normally I have all events on the same channel, but this midi file I am working with is coming from Overture with different voice settings, then I would do now. Besides that, I combined/divided several voices to my liking for the new project (by the way it is that first symphony, which I am doing all over again with the knowledge I have now).

So there are many left overs from earlier, maybe faulty approaches, as well as to blame (older version of) Overture, which is doing weird things to channels, etc.


One thing left in SONAR, when you do this having the Event View before you, that window will not be refreshed when that interpolation process is ready. So you think nothing happened, until you reload that Event View/List.

Raymond

[Raymond62]

Sorry, I forgot that button cropped. It doesn't work!!! Pity. Anyway, thanks for the efforts. I already asked on the cakewalk forum how to do this.

Raymond

[rbowser-]

Well very good, thanks for letting us know that worked. I was confident you'd get the results you want.

Sometimes just because of working on a project at different times, I'll end up with data and notes on more than one channel, when I didn't intend for that to happen. But for what I'm doing it usually doesn't matter, I just set the channel in the track header to force everything to one channel. But Interpolate is a great tool to fix most anything when needed.

"...you think nothing happened, until you reload that Event View/List..."

Yes, that's a good thing to add to this thread. Refresh the view to update it to the latest edits you've made.

Randy

[rbowser-]

Sorry, I forgot that button cropped. It doesn't work!!!
What "Show Cropped" will do is reveal data which Might be hidden. It does work, but if there is no hidden data, then there's nothing for it to do.

Randy

[Raymond62]

Randy, you put a message on the cakewalk forum. I replied with a bunch of pictures. See those, please. Still, this whole thing sound very strange to me, "might be there, but ......."

Raymond

[rbowser-]

Raymond, what did "It worked!!!! Huray!!!" mean if it didn't mean - it worked-?

As I just now posted at Sonar, you're either still not using Interpolate correctly or your installation has a problem.

If you click OK on BOTH windows, after changing the channel on the second screen, all data and notes will change to what you selected. I just ran a test again to make sure I wasn't crazy. I'm not. Well, at least not in regards to this.

Randy

[Raymond62]

I think I've found it. It is definitely SONAR and it has to do with what SONAR puts somewhere in the background, some sort of caching. I quit the project and reloaded SONAR again. Viewed the "extended EVENT list" and found no controls or other things on the wrong channel.

So, I did the Interpolate as it should, but was tricked by SONAR itself. Sloppy programming!


Many thanks for your help to get it right,

have a nice weekend,
Raymond

[Raymond62]

... and your photo on the Cakewalk forum is much, much better that on this forum.........

Raymond

[rbowser-]

Oh, there was another message from you which is now deleted, with a MIDI file at Box for me to look at--I understand you to mean that now I don't need to check that out?--Your problem was fixed by re-opening Sonar. OK, glad you got it to work. For me it works with many programs that I'll need to close and re-open. Glad that cleared this up.

You don't like my blinky picture here taken in Russia, wearing my big Russian fur hat? Hey!--that's my favorite Avatar! :)

Randy

[Raymond62]

You don't like my blinky picture here taken in Russia, wearing my big Russian fur hat? Hey!--that's my favorite Avatar! :)

Randy

That deleted message wasn't needed anymore, it only could lead to confusion.... and about that blinky photo... on the other photo your kind personality shines thru. The avatar here...... hidden, mysterious, packed in fur...... (it is all crap I wrote..)

Raymond

[Raymond62]

I just checked the file again and it is back, those "alien" channel numbers.
What is happening?

Randy, try to make it work, please. I am stunned.
It is a project file, with only one instrument, no ARIA nor Alitverb and buses in them. It is quite large (all 1500 bars or so).

Raymond

link: Violins1-only project (http://www.box.net/shared/sznkntl8u4)

[rbowser-]

I came to the thread just to banter about my avatar photos - Thanks for saying the Sonar avatar looks more friendly. I see that it.

But now I see you're still having problems with this multiple MIDI Channel problem! OH my, that was unexpected.


I just checked the file again and it is back, those "alien" channel numbers.
What is happening?...Raymond

Totally mysterious to me. For me, once I've used Interpolate to change data to one channel, it's a permanent edit which stays intact when I re-open the project.

Is the link you've provided a sample Sonar file, like in the earlier post you've deleted? I'll try to make some time to investigate.

Randy

[rbowser-]

---SOLVED!---

After writing my last post, I looked at your violin track link and saw that it was the Box file temporarily posted earlier, "TrackViolinOnlyForRandy."

I downloaded the file and opened it up in Sonar.

I could see that in the PRV there was the profusion of controller panes, more than there should be. Then I looked at the Event List View, and at first the display only showed MIDI Channel 2. When I clicked "Show Cropped," then more data appeared, and much of that newly displayed data was Not on MIDI Channel 2 - The problem exactly as you described it.

Running Interpolate again at first didn't yield a change. Just as you described.

Then I looked closer in the Track View, and saw that there were a huge number of layers. The track is almost an hour long, so this is an enormous amount of data. If you click the control to see layers in the Track View, then all of those layers will be shown.

I've never had this exact issue, because the vast majority of my projects are under 4 minutes in length. So, I figured there is an extra complication when dealing with so long a project.

I selected the track and under Edit in the main menu, I used Bounce to Clip. That rendered all those hundreds (thousands?) of tiny clips into one solid track. Many people use Bounce To Clip on a routine basis, and for good reason. It makes editing much easier to do. For instance, if you grab a section of an unbounced MIDI clip and shift it right or left, you're likely to select only part of the data--making notes and controllers get out of sync.

Now with just one solid MIDI file to deal with, I ran Interpolate again, asking for everything to be changed to Channel 2.

Results - Perfect. I'm attaching two screen shots to show you. The first is the PRV - See that now you don't have all those unnecessary controller panes. Only the panes with the data you're really working with show up, and the results are very legible.

http://rbowser.tripod.com/raymond-1.png

The second screen shot is part of the Event List - I can guarantee you that throughout the entire list, absolutely everything is on Channel 2. When I click "Show Cropped"--nothing more shows up, because nothing is cropped and hidden out of the normal view anymore.

http://rbowser.tripod.com/raymond-2.png

SO - All you need to do is that. Bounce each track to a clip, then run your Interpolate as you've been doing.

SOLVED!



Randy

[Raymond62]

Friends, Americans, Countrymen, lend me your ears.
I am here to praise Randy, not to bury him.
In his greatness he's got the European tracks
unified into richness and wealth for ye all.
Brought wealth and shine to those poor,
us, gathered at the steps of the Roman forum,
gave away from his wisdom and divine being.......

Raymond Not-Shakespeare

[rbowser-]

My dear Ray Antony,

I take it that the portent of your poetic exuberance on this occasion is, to wit, that my trifling excursion into the depths of the Sonar MIDI muck followed by the delivery of recovered information to you has aided you in triumphant victory over the devilish machinations to be met with and dealt with soundly in said muddy pools of MIDI madness?

Randall B., Esq.

[Raymond62]

Hi Randy, Esq.

Yes, it works fine and I would never come up with bounce to clips on my own. I must say that the Help files in Sonar are very rudimentary. All is well at this end of the world....

Raymond

[rbowser-]

This thread will be good future reference to people having the same problem.

Earlier I could have thought of and mentioned the bounce-to-clip idea, I just didn't think it was going to be necessary. I think because my projects are short in comparison to your symphony, it hasn't given me problems to retain all those separate MIDI clips in my projects. A zoomed out view of my Track View looks like a complex patch work quilt with all those squares and slivers of colors.

It's interesting that just selecting the entire track by clicking on its header didn't really select all the data, that does seem odd.

But at least we know that to combine each track into one solid track solves these kinds of problems. And of course, if you have need to do more editing like shifting groups of notes right or left, you can still do that. The solid clip will just start turning into small clips again, which is no problem.

P.S. Though I did the testing and wrestling with this problem, and finally posted the solution, I would not at all want to claim being a "Sonar master" as in the subject line. Over at the Sonar Forum (which is much less genteel than our Forum here) there are true Sonar masters. Since getting involved there again recently, I've been picking up on a lot of useful tidbits of info I didn't know before.

Randy

[Raymond62]

Maybe you are not a "Sonar master", but at least your remarks and sometimes doubts about the necessity of "doings" expressed here, make people think of possible other solutions. That is more than anyone can expect and at least your are trying to be helpful.

At the Sonar forum, I often get the idea (also from other messages) that the "masters" overthere tell you that with "knob x you can alter the value of x" without telling why there is an x or what it does.

Raymond

[rbowser-]

Maybe you are not a "Sonar master", but at least your remarks and sometimes doubts about the necessity of "doings" expressed here, make people think of possible other solutions. That is more than anyone can expect and at least your are trying to be helpful.

At the Sonar forum, I often get the idea (also from other messages) that the "masters" overthere tell you that with "knob x you can alter the value of x" without telling why there is an x or what it does.

Raymond
I do enjoy trying to help people out when I have time to spend on this and other Forums.

The Sonar Forum is an environment extremely different from this Garritan Forum. You're right that the experts often delve into technical replies that can be over the heads of their audience, and sometimes they are much more impatient. Rudeness and fights are much more common.

But it's lively, Incredibly fast moving. You can keep refreshing the tab you have the Sonar Forum on and it keeps changing, so it can be like watching a movie. I enjoy the fast pace and energy of the Forum, and the more negative aspects don't bother me.

I recommend anyone who's using Sonar that they go look at the Cakewalk Forum dedicated to the main Sonar program. Interesting discussions, and lots of usable tips.

Randy