New String Demos

[Garritan]

Since many were requesting new Orchestral Strings demos, we decided to come up with a few more mp3s. These mp3 are rough and quick sketches, but will give you an idea of some of the new features of the string library. We wish we had time to make more music with this library. When the library is released we\'ll concentrate our efforts in producing some spectacular string demos.

[links deleted]

Gary



[This message has been edited by Garritan (edited 07-26-2001).]

[RICARDO BOTTICELLI]

thanx gary for the new mp3 section.

[Damon]

The demos sound great Gary! Can\'t wait to get the library.

[TJ]

I\'m probably going to get seriously flamed for writing this, but there really isn\'t anything I\'ve yet heard so far that has bowled me over at all on the main site. I don\'t doubt Gary\'s gifts as an artist (I adore the harp as much as anyone) but I really think some seriously good MP3s by some decent composers are necessary in order to show the library in its best light. Although, I have of course noted that Gary has said the MP3s have been quickly put together.

So far, the strings do sound rather synthetic and not as rich or warm to my ears as the vitous library. This could of course be due to the mp3 recording but I\'d really love to hear how passionate the strings could sound with the right programming.

I apologise if this all seems negative but I do really admire the fact that someone has bothered to get up and try and knock the older string libraries into the lower league. I just hope they live up to the expectations.

[Damon]

I thought the Canon and Schehrezade demos sounded real nice. I would like to hear more pizzicato though http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif.
I would hardly call the cellos synthetic sounding.

[Simon Ravn]

Oh the pizzicatos... mmmmmmmmmmmm... if I ever were in love with samples it must be the celli pizzicatos http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

[tomhartman]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TJ:
I\'m probably going to get seriously flamed for writing this, but there really isn\'t anything I\'ve yet heard so far that has bowled me over at all on the main site.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


I must agree, and this is in no way meant to flame or insult the hard efforts of those involved in the production of this library.

From note one, it sounded grainy to me and very harsh and synthetic. I would encourage Gary to wait until the patches have been finalized before posting others, because if this is truly representative, then it is not what I had hoped.

Again, this is honest criticism. Sometimes one can get lost in a project this complex and too close to it. I approached listening to the mp3s with great anticipation and objectivity. I wanted them to be what BETA testers up here had claimed, but at least in these examples, I\'m sure not hearing it. Fingers crossed for the final release.

[Haydn]

The grainy sound is caused by the MP3 files. This library does have good high end content which sometimes may sound bright if you\'ve been using other libraries for awhile. The library includes a warmth control that allows you to dial in the amount of high frequency content. This helps the strings sit in the mix better depending on the style of music you are working on. This is just one of the many innovative features of this library!

This is the first library that has a true legato sound. Listen to the attacks on the cello carefully and you will notice that the samples don\'t start from the beginning each time. This may sound synthetic at first if you\'ve been working with the other libraries. The Expressive Legato Cello sound is the most realistic Cello sound I have ever heard. The MaestroTools brings it to life. Sounds like the cello section is in my studio!

I have done A-B comparison with both Vitous, Kirk Hunter and AO strings in various styles of playing and this library beats both libraries. This is the first library that I can play all styles from slow to fast without mixing other libraries in.

[TJ]

\"This is the first library that has a true legato sound. Listen to the attacks on the cello carefully and you will notice that the samples don\'t start from the beginning each time. This may sound synthetic at first if you\'ve been working with the other libraries\"


The attacks may be subtly different but that doesn\'t equal true legato, and I speak as a former viola player with the London Mozart Players. The effect sounds as forced as any other group of string samples I\'ve heard. The point I\'ve tried to make is that so far, perhaps because of the poor quality of the mp3s, the library seems pretty unrealistic. I\'m pleading for some really good demos that will convince my ears that it is worth spending money on.

The \"warmth\" effect sounds very interesting and should be great for those without decent EQ etc. Nice idea.

[tomhartman]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Haydn:
[B]The grainy sound is caused by the MP3 files. \"

With all due respect, it isn\'t because we\'re listening to mp3s. James Newton Howard\'s demo is an mp3 too http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif


\" The library includes a warmth control that allows you to dial in the amount of high frequency content. This helps the strings sit in the mix better depending on the style of music you are working on. This is just one of the many innovative features of this library! \"

The warmth control is a good idea.

[Nick Phoenix]

The demos don\'t really do this wonderful library justice. I have the first beta of this library and have been making some really nice music with it.

[SCARBEE]

Hi Gary,

There are some new programming inovations which has a trademark:

MaestroTools™ Auto-Alternator, MaestroTools™ Legato Mode & Mono Mode,

Are these parts of Gigastudio or is it additional programs or midifiles?

Thomas

[Garritan]

A request was made by Ricardo and others to post some mp3s and as a courtesy we tried to accomodate during a rather hectic time. I asked some people involved with the project to do some quick demos which they graciouly did and these were posted. I thought they did a good job and I am grateful for their talking the time and effort.

These mp3s were not meant to be major compositional works, but merely to
demonstrate various articulations and some of what can be done. Mp3s are compressed, have loss of resolution, sometimes have artifacts, sound different on various systems and cards; and sometimes they work well and other times they do not. They are isolated snippets and can never represent the full range of the library.

We\'ve pulled the recent mp3s from the site and will wait until the library is released.

In the meantime we could let you know of the film, television and other productions where you can hear what the strings sound like. For example, listen to some of the strings on \"Murder in Small Town X\" which will re-air Sunday Night.

Gary



[This message has been edited by Garritan (edited 07-26-2001).]

[SCARBEE]

I liked the z-canon very much. Sounds like a beautyful library to me. Don\'t take off the demoes Gary... I have already send the links to a couple of people. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif

Thomas

[Jamieh]

Gary, I think people understand that you are really busy and that making good demos is very time intensive. I think people are just so eager to hear the library after hearing so many positive reviews of the beta.

I look forward to hearing your post-release demos. I was only hoping to hear better demos so that I could decide to pre-order the library.

[This message has been edited by Jamieh (edited 07-26-2001).]

[Thomas_J]

Thank you Gary for letting us hear some progress. I think it sounds like a great string library and I can\'t wait to hear them in a full orchestral context. Hopefully in a more film music related composition. Unfortunately I have no access to whatever TV channel on which that show you were talking about airs, but I\'ll wait in anticipation for the upcoming demos.

Btw, I\'m thinking about buying a new HD, has anyone got a Western Digital? The new caviar one, 80Gb? Or should I get the 60gb IBM drive instead? Sorry that its off topic.

[Simon Ravn]

I think this is a shame, Gary that you pulled the demos and decided not to post any new for a (long) time. I think the demos were fine for what they did. Especially the ricochet demo, I think the fast strings sounded very convincing. The same for canon, actually I was surprised about how natural THAT sounded! http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif I don\'t think it\'s necessary to remove the demos because a few people don\'t like them - there are lots of people who DO appreciate them and get an impression of the libraries abilities.

[elle]

I 110% agree with Simon on the demo\'s!
They are more than invitating enough!!
That being said...let\'s now leave Garritan to his job.
And for those who really can\'t take it anymore....go take a walk in the park.
Being summer and all :-)

[tomhartman]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by elle:
I 110% agree with Simon on the demo\'s!
They are more than invitating enough!!
That being said...let\'s now leave Garritan to his job.
And for those who really can\'t take it anymore....go take a walk in the park.
Being summer and all :-)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This forum is for discussion, not rear-end kissing.

I think removing the demos is a good idea until the library is ready.

[elle]

Come on Tom,

Cheer up. Gary allowed himself to be pressured into some quick demo\'s. They only cause discussion on a false basis.
Let\'s wait till the thing is ready.
Till then you can find me in the park;

[Damon]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Simon Ravn:
\"I think this is a shame, Gary that you pulled the demos and decided not to post any new for a (long) time.\"

Long time? I thought the shipping date was August? Does anyone have a clue when this library might be out? I don\'t know whether to pre-order it now before August or what. I\'d much rather pay 999.00 instead of 1399.00. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif
Sorry if I sound pushy, I just need to know whether it\'s coming out real soon so I can pre-order it.

[Damon]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Thomas_J:
Btw, I\'m thinking about buying a new HD, has anyone got a Western Digital? The new caviar one, 80Gb? Or should I get the 60gb IBM drive instead? Sorry that its off topic.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I just bought a 60 gig IBM deskstar for 160 bucks and it is a great drive. I would go with the Deskstar instead of a Western Digital. I have heard that the Western Digitals can be problematic.
Deskstars are great drives for audio. I believe I got it from Compuplus. Fast shipping as well. I would call their 800 number as opposed to ordering it online. Sometimes those email orders get pushed back.

[Simon Ravn]

Damon, \'long time\' is relative. What I meant was for maybe a month or so. About IBM drives yes they are great, just a pity the new GXP60 drives won\'t work in my GigaStudio system so I had to put it into this one instead....

[Garritan]

For those who enjoyed the demos, thank you for your kind words. After consulting with some members of the beta team, the decision was made to remove the demos.

The overriding concern of this library has always been quality. We never have and never will compromise on quality. Mp3 snippets simply cannot convey what this library is about. If the new mp3s (or anything associated with this library) don\'t show the utmost quality, for whatever reason - they simply cannot remain.

There are eminent composers using this library now. What concerned me was being told to get \"MP3s by some decent composers\" (implying the work of my friends and colleagues was not decent). We won\'t let that happen anymore. This is unfortunate because others had some demos they also wanted to share.

In the meantime, email me at gary@harps.com and I could email the mp3 links to those who absolutely must have them.

I\'m on the road (and unplugged) for a couple of days and will answer Scarbees questions about MaestroTools when I return.

Gary

[Thomas_J]

Reasonable words Gary. You wouldn\'t want to scare off potential costumers with imperfect demos.

Simon, you say the GXP 60 wouldn\'t work on your gigastudio system? Why is that? could I expect similar \"problems\" with my AMD duron 800mhz system?

Thanks everyone for your advice. I will go with the 60gb IBM drive, unless you, Simon have any reason to believe it won\'t work.

Thomas

[Simon Ravn]

Thomas, I suspect the problem lies in some incompatibility between that HD and the VIA KT133 chipset in my system. I tried putting the IBM both as slave on the first IDE channel, master/slave on the 2nd channel - same thing: Crashes during transfers.

[TJ]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>
There are eminent composers using this library now. What concerned me was being told to get \"MP3s by some decent composers\" (implying the work of my friends and colleagues was not decent). We won\'t let that happen anymore. This is unfortunate because others had some demos they also wanted to share.

Gary[/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Unfortunately, as passionate as a number of people are about the library, they are perhaps simply not talented or well trained enough to draw the best performance from the library. At the end of the day, the art of orchestration (let alone composition) is a precise and subtle one that requires a lot of training and the experience of working day in day out with professional musicians. Some of the MP3s simply do not demonstrate this or measure up to the best. If you want the library to sell as it probably should then employ only the best to demonstrate its full potential.

Bowl us over like you did with the harp!!

[donnie]

This is a little bizare to me. People ask for .mp3 demos and they get them. I thought they were very good myself. Of course I\'ve only been playing in a symphony for 10 years now.....

There\'s a saying \"you live by the home user, and you can die by the home user\"....this is a perfect example of that. I kills me to think that there are guys out there downloading these and listening to them on their computer speakers or through a sound blaster card and saying \"that sounds like crap\". Come on people! http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif This is why we sample developers go mad sometimes!!!!

Of course if this does not apply to you then don\'t worry about it! http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

Donnie

[TJ]

\"Of course I\'ve only been playing in a symphony for 10 years now.....\"


NOW THAT\'S BIZARRE!! Must be the longest ever written eh?

[TJ]

Oh, and Donnie........wether I listen to them in my studio through the VS2205s or at home through the little Roland MA-8s, the general effect isn\'t really that different. I advise you not to assume that its only home users who contribute to these forums

[Haydn]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Unfortunately, as passionate as a number of people are about the library, they are perhaps simply not talented or well trained enough to draw the best performance from the library. At the end of the day, the art of orchestration (let alone composition) is a precise and subtle one that requires a lot of training and the experience of working day in day out with professional musicians.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

TJ,

At least half of the beta testers are professionals with excellent credentials. You\'ve probably heard some of their work while watching TV. A couple are professional violinists. Most are classically trained and not just hobbyists. I have listened to demos by this group that are top notch. Let\'s hear some of your work, TJ, so I know how the beta testers stack up.

[This message has been edited by Haydn (edited 07-26-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Haydn (edited 07-26-2001).]

[tomhartman]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by donnie:
This is a little bizare to me. People ask for .mp3 demos and they get them. I thought they were very good myself. Of course I\'ve only been playing in a symphony for 10 years now.....

There\'s a saying \"you live by the home user, and you can die by the home user\"....this is a perfect example of that. I kills me to think that there are guys out there downloading these and listening to them on their computer speakers or through a sound blaster card and saying \"that sounds like crap\". Come on people! http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif This is why we sample developers go mad sometimes!!!!

Of course if this does not apply to you then don\'t worry about it! http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

Donnie<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Whoa Donnie, hold on. The only thing \"Home user \" about many of us, myself included, is that our studios are in our home. A lot of us make our living writing music and working with real strings, and the best samples we can find. That\'s a bit
condescending, don\'t you think?

I\'ve been looking forward to this library. When I saw a notice that there were demos posted, I couldn\'t wait to hear them. The fact that I was listening under headphones off my Mac means nothing. I was listening the same way when I went to the Keyboard website and heard James Newton Howard\'s midi demo for his film. The mp3 had no effect on me easily recognizing his samples as competely stunning. So that argument really is moot.

I heard the main violin line in one of the mp3s of Gary\'s string library and it sounded no different than 10 other string libraries. It was immediately recognizeable as a sample. It was whiny and thin and synthetic. So if you\'ve been in the symphony forever and you think that violin line was convincing, hey, that\'s what makes horse races.

I have been very careful to state that I would never pass final judgement on anything that was a work in progress. I said in my original post that my comments were not meant to insult the insanely difficult efforts of sampling a string section.

And re the composition, whoever made the remark that Gary should get better composers was ill advised. It wouldn\'t matter whether it was the worst work in the world or the best, I was listening for the sounds, not the composition. A real string section playing an inferior work still sounds like a real string section.

[Jamieh]

I also recommend the IBM Deskstar 60GB.

[mgiovanni]

I say the same with Mr. T Hartman.

I personalie do not think that the Library is good enoug in realism. It sounds very artificial in Mp3. Wi use Delta 1010 and Wamirack for Giga. I know we all have difirences and point of view, but my taste is still Miroslav. I do not think I will buy Garritan strings for $1000. I hope there m be a better library one day (by Miroslav.) Gigastrings not good quality for the price.
My english not good sorry!

Giovanni

[IOComposer]

I think it was a good idea to take those demos down. They didn\'t knock me out at all. However, the first demos did, so I know that it has less to do with the library and more to do with the hurried circumstance of their creation. The new demos that were posted were simply misrepresentation. The demos that represent this library should contain the same painstaking attention to detail as the library itself. Send me the library, Gary. I\'ll make you a demo that will represent it correctly http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif
-J

[This message has been edited by IOComposer (edited 07-30-2001).]

[KingIdiot]

I have a question for the people who don\'t like the MP3 demos.

What would you like to see in terms of demos?

Point out what you really like in the Dinasaur/Keyboard/eggtravel demo and *MAYBE* when the demo prcess gets going some of us can throw together something thats similar to what you may want to hear.

I\'ve personally used the library on a project, but haven\'t gotten to use it the way I wanted (no real orchestrations). I\'m now spending some time \"fiddling\" with the newest features and working on recreating other orchestral works. One in particular that I\'m fooling with right now is amazing IMO. Granted I only have AO and Ultimate strings and not Miroslav, I still a amazed at the amount realism that G.O.S. puts in. Alot of it definitely has to do with the newly calibrated instruments in teh latest betas and I believe once all the instruments are calibrated this way you\'ll be hearing some amazing stuff.

Not jumping out in defense for beta testings sake, and because I\'m \"attached\" to the project..or butt kissing.

I think skeptics should be like Tom and wait till the final production demos start popping up before you pass judgement.

------------------
Really...I am an Idiot

[Simon Ravn]

mgiovanni: I personalie do not think that the Library is good enoug in realism. It sounds very artificial in Mp3. I do not think I will buy Garritan strings for $1000. I hope there m be a better library one day (by Miroslav.) Gigastrings not good quality for the price.


Woahhhhhhh wait a minute there! I am sorry you feel that way, because you\'re passing judgment on something you don\'t know the potential of here. The demos that have been made so far are very \'simplistic\' and to me, they show the great detail in the sound that the library has. If you compare them with some music that has been done with Miroslav in a real setting - which means doing a composition with a specific purpose, probably also blending in other libraries or other instrument groups than strings, this is no fair comparison.

I have done stuff with Garritan Orchestral Strings that you\'ll never be able to do with any other library on the market today, and when this library is finished I can\'t imagine I\'ll use any other string libraries anymore.

[Simon Ravn]

I just listened to that eggtravel demo. And yes it is good, but not convincing. The legato violin lines are pretty bad actually. Also this is in 96kbps - anyone knows where I can find it in anything higher? Makes it pretty hard to really judge it. Also the strings are usually covered in heavy brass so you cant really tell how good it is. The only part I immediately thought would be a challenge doing in GOS is in the beginning from 0:47 to 1:01 - but even that I think could be done as well.... Maybe I\'ll try and do a GOS version of some of this, but it\'d be easier if there was a higher quality MP3 available.

[TJ]

\"Let\'s hear some of your work, TJ, so I know how the beta testers stack up.\"


For Haydn:

Daddyofthesky@aol.com

send me your email Haydn and I\'ll send you an MP3

[TJ]

\"At least half of the beta testers are professionals with excellent credentials. You\'ve probably heard some of their work while watching TV. A couple are professional violinists. Most are classically trained and not just hobbyists. I have listened to demos by this group that are top notch. Let\'s hear some of your work, TJ, so I know how the beta testers stack up.\"


THEN WHY CAN\'T WE HEAR THE MP3s???

[TJ]

\"Also the strings are usually covered in heavy brass so you cant really tell how good it is\"

Yeah, that\'s called orchestration.

[Damon]

TJ, while I see you have every bit of right to voice your opinion here, I\'m going to voice mine. Have you heard the older mp3s on Garys site? They sound alot warmer and richer and show great promise of what the library can do. For gods sake it\'s 16 CDs man!
I\'ve been sold ever since I heard the other mp3s. Garys older mp3s are enough to sell the library, why the hell should he have to keep putting up more demos? How many sample producers put up demos before a library is released in the first place? It\'s up to you to know how to use the library. Never depend on how a demo can sound, only realize it\'s possibilities. How many libraries have you bought after hearing it\'s demo and said \"Cool, my music will be able to sound like that\" and ended up not even coming close. Don\'t lie either.
I sure hope your comments don\'t postpone the library any further. Let\'s get this thing out there already.
If you want to stick with the out of tune, stupidly panned, ridiculously overpriced Vitous library, you do that. You can have the great playing of some cheap european ensemble right at your fingertips and on 1 CD for $1595.00. Please don\'t get me started on the MAJOR faults of that library.
Tons of beta testers commented on how great this library is and I take their word for it. Alot of them work in professional music related jobs as well and they know when something sounds unconvincing or not. Simon thinks the Dinosaur demo sounds unconvincing which I totally disagree on. I do agree it should have been converted to 160 kpbs to really hear how good it sounds, but that gives you an idea of how critical these guys can be here.
At $999.00 for 16 CDs, each CD comes out to roughly $62.45. I\'d say that deal beats Miroslav or Kirk Hunter any day of the week.


[This message has been edited by Damon (edited 07-27-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Damon (edited 07-27-2001).]

[Thomas_J]

The dinosaur demo could be better of course, but I\'m sure James Newton Howard didn\'t have time to go into every bit of detail and make adjustments just to make it sound better. While it didn\'t fool me into thinking it was a real orchestra, it did inspire me.

About G.O.S. Now it comes on 16 cds, I\'m sure that means I\'ll be spending EVEN more time tweaking my sequences. I\'ll have more articulations to choose from and that\'ll require more time in the orchestration process. So I can\'t help asking: at what point will we have so many technical features to choose from that it will completely halt our creative flow? What is our main goal here? fooling people into believing it\'s a real orchestra, or compose music? Regarding the Hans Zimmer note I posted earlier, I sure can tell a real horn group from a sampled one, and the crimson tide horns were not particularly convincing, but it served its purpose very well! One will NEVER be able to create a sample library that captures all the details in such dynamic instruments as say strings or brass and make them playable and still sound convincing. You can come close to the real thing, but fast runs and true legato is impossible. Or at least I have yet to hear an example that sounds convincing. I will probably end up buying the G.O.S library as requirements in realism will increase, and I will also buy the Smart Violins library from Peter Siedlaczek, as I think that\'s a fantastic concept. Still, I will continue to give COMPOSITION first priority. That\'s what we do with our libraries. We compose music, and if our music isn\'t good, nobody will ever care about our work. Even if it sounds entirely like a real orchestra.

I guess what I\'m trying to say is that we shouldn\'t get too tied up in the technical issues of midi orchestration (samples and sample quality) and forget about composition. I was in luck one day. A conductor had heard some my work and called me up. \"I think this piece sounds really original and beautiful, I will ask you to write out the parts for our orchestra so we can play it.\" And so I did, and even though my orchestral mock-up sounded fairly convincing to begin with, it was nothing compared to the live performance. Now I know most of you don\'t have access to an orchestra, and so sample libraries are your only alternative, but before you start complaining about limitations of samples and GOS, sit down and compose some good music. You\'ll see that the pleasure of having written something emotionally beautiful by far surpasses the simple satisfaction you get from a realistic midi mockup. Afterall it\'s all about music (and harmonies in my opinion http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif and its all about having fun!
So don\'t you guys worry too much if GOS doesn\'t turn out to be what you hoped for. Chances are that if GOS doesn\'t do it for you, no sample library ever will. And for the record, I\'m not a beta-tester.

Thomas

[Damon]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Thomas_J:
Now I know most of you don\'t have access to an orchestra, and so sample libraries are your only alternative, but before you start complaining about limitations of samples and GOS, sit down and compose some good music. You\'ll see that the pleasure of having written something emotionally beautiful by far surpasses the simple satisfaction you get from a realistic midi mockup. Afterall it\'s all about music (and harmonies in my opinion http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif and its all about having fun!


Thomas<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Damon]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Thomas_J:
Now I know most of you don\'t have access to an orchestra, and so sample libraries are your only alternative, but before you start complaining about limitations of samples and GOS, sit down and compose some good music. You\'ll see that the pleasure of having written something emotionally beautiful by far surpasses the simple satisfaction you get from a realistic midi mockup. Afterall it\'s all about music (and harmonies in my opinion http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif and its all about having fun!
Thomas<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Well said Thomas! http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif

[TJ]

I couldn\'t agree more about the composition and programming aspect Thomas.

All I\'ve been asking for since the beginning of this thread is that Gary release some top quality MP3s so we can hear how effective his library will sound in a good, sound composition. I\'ve questioned the quality of the MP3s so far because they have not demonstrated this. The music has been pretty poor. Without good quality music, the library will not be heard in its best light.
And its wrong to assume that just because somebody is a professional that they write good music. There\'s a hell of a lot of crap out there, just as there was in Mozart\'s time!.

The samples didn\'t sound as effective as I\'d hoped in the MP3s and I\'d really love to hear them properly represented.

Most of my professional time is spent working with real musicians not samples. I use the samples to mock up the orchestra or chamber ensemble so that clients can hear an approximation of what I\'m producing for them. I don\'t sit around and try and replicate a Beethoven symphony because it is a pointless watse of time. String samples don\'t even come close to a real string orchestra and I don\'t know if samples on their own ever will. I think a mixture of synthesis and samples will eventually yield the best results, so I\'m not expecting the LSO to suddenly appear in my speakers when I play a middle C. However, a more flexible good quality string library is long overdue and I prey that this is it.

[Simon Ravn]

TJ: \"Also the strings are usually covered in heavy brass so you cant really tell how good it is\"
Yeah, that\'s called orchestration.


I don\'t really care for that arrogant attitude... You got my point, and apparently you agreed with me, but just couldn\'t make yourself say that you did...

[Simon Ravn]

Thomas: About G.O.S. Now it comes on 16 cds, I\'m sure that means I\'ll be spending EVEN more time tweaking my sequences. I\'ll have more articulations to choose from and that\'ll require more time in the orchestration process. So I can\'t help asking: at what point will we have so many technical features to choose from that it will completely halt our creative flow? What is our main goal here? fooling people into believing it\'s a real orchestra, or compose music?

(Someone teach me how to QUOTE! http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif)

Thomas you can\'t really blame GOS for giving you tons of articulations. It\'s all up to you how much time you want to spend on making it sound as realistic as you can - it always has been. With Miroslav/Hunter I still used maybe 70% of the time on expression and tweaking, and I\'d say it\'s about the same I will do with GOS - I just have more timbres and articulations to choose from - I am usually not doubting which to use. If you set your standard lower you could use 100% on composing and 0% on expression/tweaking if that\'s what suits you.
I\'ve always felt that doing orchestral music on computers takes some of the focus away from composing, and this will never change, unless you say \'f*ck it\' and go for a lower realism, knowing that what you have composed would sound good played by a real orchestra. If my final medium was a real orchestra, I\'d probably not use as much time on tweaking, but since I have this simulated orchestra as my destination, I want it to be as good as I can get it.

On a side note, I am not sure that JNH did every work on that MIDI sequence himself, but I could be wrong of course. I generally don\'t think Hollywood composers have the time themselves to fiddle around with MIDI mockups that much, so I think JNH put it together and gave it to someone else to make it sound more real. I can\'t remember what he said in his interview about this, so as I said: I could be wrong.

[TJ]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Simon Ravn:
TJ: \"Also the strings are usually covered in heavy brass so you cant really tell how good it is\"
Yeah, that\'s called orchestration.


I don\'t really care for that arrogant attitude... You got my point, and apparently you agreed with me, but just couldn\'t make yourself say that you did...

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Apologies Simon. I re-read and I didn\'t mean it to look as sarcastic as it does.

Where can I find the egg-travels demo mp3. I\'ve seen a lot written about it but have yet to hear it.

[Munsie]

Keep in mind, most of your typical listening audience will not be able to tell the difference between \"real\" instruments and sampled instruments. Just my 2 cents.. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

[mgiovanni]

To Simon

I know you correct. I mabe too early to tell. I know demos do not good. Do u think that the Mp3 had effects put onit?
My ears tell me that library not good. I still think $1000 too much. I am wiling to give another chance an wait for demo. Mabee someone can do a virtual Violin,Cello etc and link the actual sound to the virtual violin. If you mouse over then can hear the raw sound actavate, then do a Demo of same sounds used on \"Virtual\" but create an orchestral score.(no classique, heard too many, but movie/tv type.)

Giovanni

[mgiovanni]

To Simon

I know you correct. I mabe too early to tell. I know demos do not good. Do u think that the Mp3 had effects put onit?
My ears tell me that library not good. I still think $1000 too much. I am wiling to give another chance an wait for demo. Mabee someone can do a virtual Violin,Cello etc and link the actual sound to the virtual violin. If you mouse over then can hear the raw sound actavate, then do a Demo of same sounds used on \"Virtual\" but create an orchestral score.(no classique, heard too many, but movie/tv type.)

Giovanni

[Damon]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Simon Ravn:
Thomas: With Miroslav/Hunter I still used maybe 70% of the time on expression and tweaking, and I\'d say it\'s about the same I will do with GOS - I just have more timbres and articulations to choose from <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Glad to hear I\'m not the only one spending most of my time with expression and tweaking! http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gifThat\'s definitely the biggest pain in the butt for me.
Simon, are the new expression articulations more realistic sounding then the existing string libraries out there now? Is getting the strings to slowly attack and decay much smoother sounding with GOS?

[Haydn]

Thomas_J,

There are 2 sets of patches that will help composers work quickly in G.O.S.

The first is the String Ensembles. These are designed to be used as a sketchpad for quick string writing. By the way, these are great for live string playing.

The second are the keyswitched instruments. These give most of the articulations under your fingertips for each section and are great for filling out your string orchestrations. The keyswitched instruments are comparable or better than any libraries out at this time even though these are light versions of the full patches. These instruments should allow you to write any style of music.

Once the basic composition is in place, then you can start substituting the full patches for more realism.

I think Gary and Tom have given us tools that no other library can even come close to matching.

[tomhartman]

I\'m just wondering what a lot of you guys are using when you tweak your string lines.

James Newton Howard spoke of his affection for using an expression pedal to dip attacks of instruments, and I\'m wondering how many of you do similar tricks to help these libraries work more effectively.

Thanks

[Bruce Mitchell]

On Comparing Gary\'s Strings to Vitous and Hunter: I have 5 E-6400\'s loaded with Vitous and Hunter and 2 GigaStudios loaded with Garritan String Orchestra.

There is NO Comparison. Gary\'s strings blows away ALL the others. Period.They will expand your musical horizon significantly.

Now I wish I had a Brass Library that will stack up to GOS.

[Thomas_J]

I agree with you Simon, but it is then obvious to me that we represent two different kind of artists. The art of midi orchestration and the art of composition. Production is an exciting field, and while I\'d like to be able to master both midi orchestration and composition equally well I feel that the time involved in creating a convincing orchestral mockup challenges my patience. In the earlier days of my composing career I spent way too much time tweaking and adjusting my sequences. I have created a lot of really convincing midi music(at least convincing to people who\'ve heard it), but lately I\'ve moved away from that and focused entirely on composition. Those pieces of convincing orchestral midi music still come in handy when I\'m trying to impress people, but it\'s nothing but a showcase. To draw a paralell: The art of midi orchestration is more or less like the art of visual special effects. I don\'t think anyone would care to watch a movie entirely based on special effects if the actors,the plot and the direction was horrible. Same with mockups. In the end it really boils down to \"but can this man compose? can he write music that people want to hear?\" And thus I shared my opinion on that composition vs. midi orchestration technique issue.
However, the fact that I concentrate on the composition process doesn\'t mean I don\'t care about quality samples. If that was the case I\'d probably just use a general midi bank for my work. I want my samples to be inspiring and easy to work with.

The way I feel about a library like GOS is that while it probably won\'t make my music better, it will refresh my palette of sounds and perhaps inspire me to write in a different way. I think that G.O.S best represent a great technological leap. It\'s great news for midi orchestration artists like you, Simon. But I look at it as some kind of expensive electronic toy that I really really want but don\'t need. I\'m just about as excited now as when Gigasampler was released. I\'m satisfied with the strings I already have, and the only thing I could wish for now is some properly recorded brass. Dan Dean is taking care of that I believe. Anyway, I wish the best of luck to Gary and his team. They certainly deserve it.
It will be interesting to hear how this library performs compared to miroslav and kirk hunter.

Thomas

[This message has been edited by Thomas_J (edited 07-27-2001).]

[Tcsmusic]

Hi I would like to add my 2 cents worth on this subject.
The first Demos I heard on this library were each violin,viola and Cello Bass were playing by themselves is what sold me on the library. I wished more Sound Developers would use this concept.
I want to hear what the Strings sound like by themselves.The only thing I would like to hear different is the same samples and playing teqniqe without reverb.
I agree with most others that I was not impressed with the newest Demo that I heard but it did not matter because I have already heard the individual sounds and that is what I was after.I have Advanced Orchestra strings and Miroslov Strings and these strings Blow Advanced Orchestra away.The one thing that I like about Garritan Strings is the Attack.
When I listened to these string I had Miroslov loaded in to compare, and the biggest Difference I heard was attack. When I got down to the file named Legato Full Demo.There is nothing out there that even comes close to sounding like this. This rivals live strings.I would say better that most live string sections.
Also the Violins portamento Mp3 is amazing.
I cut live strings at least 2 times a month.The only diference is we use 12 Players and do three passes. And there is some stuff on this library that I would love to be able to do with the live guys. The Expression in this Library is simply Stunning.As far as the fast playing attacks I am not sold on these Demos but As far as I am concerned I have already bought the library.If anyone is interested.I have one song maybe two songs still on my Hard Drive From our last project that is nothing but Strings.These string were cut on top of band tracks and vocals. But it will give some of you who do not get to hear live stings a really good idea of what Real Strings sound like by themselves.One difference is we like to Mike everything a little closer than what a Orchestral setting would be.Let me know if you are interested.
My Email is Tcsmusic@ aol.com
This is only strings no horns or anything else.

[mgiovanni]

I persinaly belive that it wold better for the library to be cd sold seperate. TJ is corect about time to make these samples good for listnieng. If the cd got sold sepirate I think that all composers would know exactly what cd thy want and choose the particilar for the project. I do not want buy all, because I have all other library ex.AO, Miroslav, Ultimate Str.etc. I do no through away these just to buy Gigastrings. Why do not sell seperate and make the composer choose colection what thy want? You will never use all on the 16cd. Lot will not be touched. That also reason not for bying GOS.

I think more people buy seperate. That way musician/composer will use what needs if library is categorised seperate. What do other tink? Thru away all libraries for giga or buy seperate and use with other library =more expression and color to scoring.

Giovanni

[mgiovanni]

I persinaly belive that it wold better for the library to be cd sold seperate. TJ is corect about time to make these samples good for listnieng. If the cd got sold sepirate I think that all composers would know exactly what cd thy want and choose the particilar for the project. I do not want buy all, because I have all other library ex.AO, Miroslav, Ultimate Str.etc. I do no through away these just to buy Gigastrings. Why do not sell seperate and make the composer choose colection what thy want? You will never use all on the 16cd. Lot will not be touched. That also reason not for bying GOS.

I think more people buy seperate. That way musician/composer will use what needs if library is categorised seperate. What do other tink? Thru away all libraries for giga or buy seperate and use with other library =more expression and color to scoring.

Giovanni

[Damon]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tomhartman:
I\'m just wondering what a lot of you guys are using when you tweak your string lines.
Thanks<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I\'m using my expression control \'slider\' on my Kurzweil SP-76. It is not a wheel but one of those new ribbon bands. I\'m not real crazy about it, but I\'m starting to get better at using it especially for strings. I have a hard time with woodwind decays sometimes.
I kind of wish I would have been a beta tester because I had an idea for applying the sustain pedal or velocity aftertouch to trigger a strings actual \'sampled\' release instead of always having to decay the volume with the slider. Can this be done somehow with any of the available string libraries or with GOS in the Giga editor?



[This message has been edited by Damon (edited 07-28-2001).]

[Simon Ravn]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Damon:
Glad to hear I\'m not the only one spending most of my time with expression and tweaking! http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gifThat\'s definitely the biggest pain in the butt for me.
Simon, are the new expression articulations more realistic sounding then the existing string libraries out there now? Is getting the strings to slowly attack and decay much smoother sounding with GOS?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well yes I\'d say so, since you have the ability to crossfade from \'unexpressive\' playing to expressive/vibrato using a MIDI controller.

[Simon Ravn]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by mgiovanni:
I persinaly belive that it wold better for the library to be cd sold seperate. TJ is corect about time to make these samples good for listnieng. If the cd got sold sepirate I think that all composers would know exactly what cd thy want and choose the particilar for the project. I do not want buy all, because I have all other library ex.AO, Miroslav, Ultimate Str.etc. I do no through away these just to buy Gigastrings. Why do not sell seperate and make the composer choose colection what thy want? You will never use all on the 16cd. Lot will not be touched. That also reason not for bying GOS.

Giovanni<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why would you NOT throw away your old libs and use GOS for everything? I can\'t see why you wouldn\'t/shouldn\'t. It\'s not like you can do stuff with older libraries that you can\'t do better with GOS, except of course if you want your music to sound less realistic.. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

[Damon]

All I know is when I get GOS, goodbye AO strings, goodbye Miroslav String Ensembles, and goodbye Ultimate strings. My whole point of buying this library is to hopefully NOT have to stack string sounds anymore and get better realistic results.

[tomhartman]

I\'d like to ask those BETA testing Gary\'s strings if they think these strings will be useable on anything but GIGA.

I use the Roland 5080 and it has 128 megs, I suppose I would have get something to translate it to Roland format.

The point is, are these strings so constructed as to make one HAVE to have the GIGA to use them, or can they be used in a system that is not as powerful, and still do some damage? Thanks...

[KingIdiot]

Damon

There are a few different instruments that allow for \"expressive\" X-fading/dynamics modulaation. Including between different articulations. One can crate some really nice \"realistic\" attacks and decays. As well as some extremely expressive phrases. This isn\'t jsut limited to saying expressive as in p through to f, but also expressive movments in just the p layer. Just listen to that crecendo mp3 on the website.

tom-

The library makes use of GigaStudios feature set and is best when used with it. I think one \"could\" convert a few of the patches inside Lite Instruments into less than 128 MB patches...they would sound good but probably wouldn\'t be as expressive if they don\'t retain the crossfade features after teh conversion tho. As well once you hear the \"standard\" patches you\'ll always want to use them...

------------------
Really...I am an Idiot

[This message has been edited by KingIdiot (edited 07-28-2001).]

[MChilds]

If there are so many impressively credentialed composers beta-testing this library, why doesn\'t Gary get a demo or two from them to put up?

[TJ]

I don\'t doubt that now enough of a protest about the quality of the previous mp3s has been heard, a far more substantial and impressive batch will be released asap. A bit of patience is needed now. Its wrong to lose faith in such hard work before hearing the best in can do.

[Haydn]

You will definitely want to wait to hear any demos with the latest version of the 1st and 2nd violin sections. I find that I focus on the violins first when listening to string ensembles. So my first impressions center around what I hear in the violins. (Cello is next). Back to testing the killer Cello and viola sections!

[This message has been edited by Haydn (edited 07-30-2001).]

[KingIdiot]

hmmm...and I\'m a Guitar Player thats played in a few rock bands....

explains it all... http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

------------------
Really...I am an Idiot

[Haydn]

This is really scary - I also played guitar and bass for years in rock bands!!

[tomhartman]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Haydn:
This is really scary - I also played guitar and bass for years in rock bands!!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Very scary, as did I!!

[carlgt1]

Well I think all this long thread has proved is that \"composers\" and keyboardists have egos just as huge as any rock guitarist!

[Tom Hopkins]

TJ wrote: \". . . but I really think some seriously good MP3s by some decent composers are necessary . . .\"

Boy, go away for a few days and look what happens. I\'m the programmer of Garritan\'s Orchestral Strings. I just now read this extended thread after taking a few days off and thought I\'d take a moment to add a little relevant information. First, I plead guilty as the \"indecent\" guy who contributed the original demos on the GigaStrings site (and also the recent Scheherazade excerpt). But beyond my general lack of decency (which my friends and family will surely corroborate), I thought a quick explanation of those \"demos\" might be in order. Guess what? They were not originally intended to be demos at all. They were quick improvisations that had two purposes: They were designed to test the particular feature I was working on at the time and they gave me something to send to Gary to let him follow my progress. I always compose short passages to help me check to make sure that a feature is functioning properly. If you listen carefully to those original demos you can clearly hear this in the pointedly narrow compass of each passage. There\'s nothing like music to check a library that is intended to be used . . . to make music. After Gary got the GigaStrings site up and running he asked me if I\'d mind his posting these little snippets as a kind of advance preview of the library. With reservations, I agreed, even though I would have preferred we waited until the library was completed to do carefully crafted demos. Who would have thought that these innocuous little work files would cause such a stir? There must be more good stuff hidden in there than I realized or they wouldn\'t have gotten such a reaction! I don\'t generally bother to defend myself in a situation like this (In the last 30 years as a professional I\'ve had far worse things said about my real compositions - the ones I\'ve spent more than 30 seconds on - than \"you should get a decent composer . . .\") but I wouldn\'t want these files to reflect badly on what is, I believe, a remarkable new group of tools for the composer. And let\'s not misunderstand what GOS represents: more choices. It\'s not intended to replace real string players doing what they do so well. No library, now or in the foreseeable future, will do that. But if you use the tools with skill they can perhaps help you to more fully realize your personal musical goals. As with all things, this library is not for everyone. If you prefer another string library, by all means buy it, use it in good health, and be happy. The other libraries aren\'t going away. After GOS is completed I\'m sure many excellent demonstrations will be posted (by Gary and others) that will help you make your decision. Remember, if I had my way, you wouldn\'t have heard anything yet. Like it or not, the only people in a position to judge this library are the beta testers and that\'s how it\'s going to remain until the library is released. Oops, I better sign off now, I feel another indecent musical impulse coming on . . . my favorite kind!

P.S. T.J. also wrote: \"If you want the library to sell as it probably should then employ only the best to demonstrate its full potential. Bowl us over like you did with the harp!!\"

Thanks T.J. I\'m the one who did the main audio demo for the harp. Much appreciated.

Tom

[This message has been edited by Tom Hopkins (edited 08-01-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Tom Hopkins (edited 08-01-2001).]

[TJ]

Its simple: the MP3s put up on the site were of poor quality and IMO shouldn\'t have been included. I realise that they were quickly put together (and it shows), so I was merely asking for some good MP3s instead.

I had, until now, no previous knowledge of your work and have no intention of insulting you personally or professionally. I certainly didn\'t set out to pick-axe any egos on the site, and I am suprised so many seem to have taken offence.

Your demo for the Gigaharp was excellent and it sold it to me straight away. I don\'t doubt that MP3s of a similar quality will be released soon and I hope that a great deal of thought and expertise goes into making them so the library sells as it probably should. I\'ve been looking forward to this library for a long time and can\'t wait to hear and hopefully use it. I only wish I\'d known about it sooner so I could have registered as a beta-tester.

[Tom Hopkins]

TJ, you\'re a piece of work. You spend your first sentence insulting me (by saying that the original demos were of poor quality, as if that were a statement of fact), then say you didn\'t mean to insult me, and follow that up with a compliment. For the record, I said the original demos were constructed quickly for a different purpose, I didn\'t say I thought they were of poor quality (or that it showed). I\'m satisfied that they function reasonably well as examples of some of the available techniques. Being test files, they weren\'t intended as polished compositional statements, but at least they have their playful moments and aren\'t always boringly tonal. Could better demos be constructed? Well, of course. And they will be soon. Anyway, this is all too silly to be consuming any more of my time. I\'m just going to accept the fact that you apparently can\'t help being rude and insulting, and let it go at that. Be my guest: Insult away. I won\'t be back to take you to task.

Tom

[PatS]

TJ:

Either you are incredibly naïve or socially inept, perhaps both. Your original request for more demos was legitimate and fair, but you couched it in terms that are highly subjective and undefined. Your statements (I won’t call them arguments, because you have yet to proffer one) would have been better served with examples of pieces you regard as “seriously good,” instead of with vacuous phrases such as “substantial and impressive.” But even then, do really want to debate the meaning of “seriously good” or “substantial” with those who may disagree with your choice of music? Mozart wrote a few “crappy” pieces in his day, and maybe someday I’ll tell you why I think they are weak, which is something you failed to do as regards the recent demos. Genuine criticism does not entail throwing around ill-conceived words. Rather, it involves a reasoned explanation of one\'s objections, as well as affirmations, and may offer a suggestion or two on how to improve the work. Or at least this is what I learned as a grad student at Yale and embraced as an instructor at UC Santa Barbara (Music Theory and Composition).

To sum up: TJ, I find you intellectually irresponsible and your words disingenuous. You’re fooling no one when you write “I am suprised [sic] so many seem to have taken offence.” I am offended, not because you have questioned our talent and skill as composers and orchestrators, but because you lack the basic skills to communicate effectively in a public forum. Learn to play the game by the rules, or go home.

Pat

[TJ]

Much as I\'d love to sit here and construct a 10,000 word academic essay as to why Mozart produced his fair share of poor works as well as masterpieces (I think I\'ll survive without an essay from you thanks Pat) or whatever, I don\'t have the time or the inclination. I did enough of it at the Royal Academy. Oh, and where a musician gained his or her education impresses me far less than their musical abilities. I\'ve met far too many academics and lecturers who make very, very poor musicians with ineffective aural apparatus.

Must I construct long-winded sentences and paragraphs about a few poxy MP3s or can I rely on you and others to open their ears and hear the paucity of invention and programming for themselves?. If you disagree then say so. Say why if necessary. But I don\'t think attacking me personally helps your cause. I was simply writing what I thought with the result that a few people agreed with me. I write what I think as a musician. If I hadn\'t got my point across or I had been far off-target with my view then I don\'t think this thread would be so long.

\"Either you are incredibly naïve or socially inept\"

\"Learn to play the game by the rules, or go home\"

You accuse me of being intellectually irresponsible and then write sentences like these!!.

Tom - guess I\'m off the b-list for beta-testers then!.

[Jamieh]

While I don\'t necessarily agree or condone anything that has been said by anyone here, I am a bit surprised at the egos that are being displayed. Someone asked for more demos, which is a reasonably request for a library that is going to cost over $1,000. Some MP3\'s were distributed that probably weren\'t meant for demonstration purposes. TJ noted that the MP3\'s were not of the quality he expected based on all the glowing reviews by the beta testers. And I have to admit, I don\'t totally disagree with him. I have heard from many people how this library is going to absolutely blow everything else away, but I haven\'t really heard anything that has blown me away (other than the legato cellos, which DID sound great). Don\'t get me wrong, I\'ve heard some good stuff, just not anything that makes me confident enough in the library to drop down $1,000 on a pre-order.

In the end, the onus is always on the company (in this case whoever is working on the Garritan Strings) to convince the customer that his or her product is worthy of buying, especially when it is a high ticket item like this library. Does that give customers the right to be rude or insulting? No, but instead of getting all riled up when a customer isn\'t impressed with a demo, I would think a better response would be to create a better demo that DOES convince the customer. And I\'m sure that will be done.

You have to remember, it is all fine and good to have a bunch of beta testers talking about how great something is, but until a person actually hears a demo of a library that impresses him he isn\'t likely to shell out the cash for it. Which would you rather have--a customer that asks for something more to convince him to buy the product, or one who is not impressed and says nothing and just scratches the product off his \"to buy\" list? All of us want the same thing--we want this library to be the best string library out there.

[PatS]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TJ:
Much as I\'d love to sit here and construct a 10,000 word academic essay as to why Mozart produced his fair share of poor works as well as masterpieces (I think I\'ll survive without an essay from you thanks Pat) or whatever, I don\'t have the time or the inclination. I did enough of it at the Royal Academy.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, if you really do love to write about such broad topics, knock yourself out; I was referring to a few specific pieces to illustrate that even the best of us are prone to writing music that leaves a lot to be desired. You believe the demos lack compositional interest (“paucity of invention,” as you put it), and therefore you do not feel you can judge the quality of the library without hearing more demos. Fair enough. But in all fairness to those who composed the demos, you should have explained what types of compositions and features you would like to hear (tonal, post-tonal, homophonic, polyphonic, degree of melodic, harmonic, and textural complexity, string articulations, doublings, unison playing, etc.), even if you are unwilling to offer some constructive criticism. You don’t need to “construct long-winded sentences and paragraphs” (or a 40-page essay on “Mozart: Hack and Genius”) to make your point. But you do need to be specific, and that’s where I find you at fault. To wit, that’s where I find you “intellectually irresponsible” (read: forsaking one’s responsibility to think carefully about the matter at hand and to communicate one’s thoughts clearly).

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>
Oh, and where a musician gained his or her education impresses me far less than their [sic] musical abilities. I\'ve met far too many academics and lecturers who make very, very poor musicians with ineffective aural apparatus.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree with you in part and have also met my share of poorly skilled musicians in and out of academia. (I have even tried to train a few of them in my undergraduate and graduate musicianship courses, but the neuronal pathways just wouldn’t form in some of them.) I say “in part” because I value the personal qualities of a musician far above his or her musical abilities. I see little point in playing with an arrogant SOB even if he or she is a phenomenal musician.

Truth be told, I did consider not including the names of the schools where I studied and taught for precisely the reason that you might read them as a veiled attempt to assert musical or intellectual authority (your note about playing viola in the London Mozart Players was cause for concern). But I concluded that you should know a little something about my background, if for no other reason than to help you understand that I do speak from experience and conviction. Clearly I was mistaken, if not just a tad “intellectually irresponsible.” (Oh, I’m such a hypocrite.)

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>
Must I construct long-winded sentences and paragraphs about a few poxy MP3s or [sic] can I rely on you and others to open their ears and hear the paucity of invention and programming for themselves?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No and yes. No, as in short, carefully worded sentences will suffice. And, yes, as in I do hear some of the most recent demos as relatively simple compositional exercises, but I see nothing wrong with their lack of inventiveness (MP3 encoding for some of them is a different story). If you are half the gifted composer I think you are, you should have no problem imagining what you can do with the library, based alone on hearing Tom’s original and nicely written “snippets.” Be that as it may, and as you duly note, it is in Gary’s best interest to provide more extensive demos once the library has been released, since \"the customer is always right.\" But, again, what would you like to hear? You can help Gary and Tom immensely by answering this one question.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>
But I don\'t think attacking me personally helps your cause.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You may be right. However, I suspect I’m not alone when I say you had it coming. Still, I\'ll be the first to admit that it\'s arrogant of me to say that. What a quandary!

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>
I was simply writing what I thought with the result that a few people agreed with me.
I write what I think as a musician. If I hadn\'t got my point across or I had been far off-target with my view then I don\'t think this thread would be so long.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, if you got your point across more carefully, this thread would have ended at least 60 posts ago. We all figured out from your first post that you and some others didn’t like the demos and regarded them as second rate. What the demo producers have yet to determine is what you would like to hear in their place. With all due respect, “seriously good,” “substantial” and “impressive” are not helpful adjectives.

I was on vacation when this thread exploded into its present state, so I didn’t have the opportunity to respond sooner and perhaps persuade you to clarify your statements. When I did finally chime in, I did so mainly in response to the arrogant and reckless tone in many of your posts.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>
\"Either you are incredibly naïve or socially inept\"

\"Learn to play the game by the rules, or go home\"

You accuse me of being intellectually irresponsible and then write sentences like these!!.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you’re going to throw my words back in my face, don’t forget “. . . you lack the basic skills to communicate effectively in a public forum.” Mean spirited and ad hominum? Perhaps! But intellectually irresponsible? Not on your nelly! I carefully thought about the wording of these sentences, knowing full well the impact they would have on you. Your posts offended me, and I wanted you to know that.

Now, am I being egotistical by responding to you this forcefully? Maybe, but I\'m just a beta tester and not one of the demo producers, so more likely I\'m just put off by your words. Of course, you are free to take me to task again, but I suggest we move this off topic. My e-mail address is pshove@ghs.com.

Pat

[This message has been edited by PatS (edited 08-02-2001).]

[Jamieh]

Regardless of how you feel about what TJ posted, your personal insults and pseudo-intellectual analysis of his posts is certainly not helping to resolve anything.

[PatS]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jamieh:
Regardless of how you feel about what TJ posted, your personal insults and pseudo-intellectual analysis of his posts is [sic] certainly not helping to resolve anything.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Jamieh:

Point well taken. However, you\'re not off to a good start yourself by using the hackneyed expression \"pseudo-intellectual analysis.\" Nice stab, though.

I\'ve said what I felt needed to be said. I would have much preferred to write him directly, and, in retrospect, I should have requested his e-mail address instead of posting to this thread. But what\'s done is done. And I do apologize to all, including TJ, who were insulted by my posts, by my breach of etiquette. This apology may strike some as insincere, but it\'s late, and I\'m ready to smoke the peace pipe.

As regards the demos, I strongly believe that input from prospective customers, not just the beta testers, will help Gary determine what kinds of demos will best illustrate the library\'s full potential. But I still stand by my words that TJ was just not specific enough to be of much help beyond his initial protest. I\'m sure he (and many others) could be of great assistance, but I would like him to move past the adjectives that he chose.

BTW, there is nothing falsely intellectual about this request or, with all due respect, my \"analysis\" of his posts. Regardless, if you wish to continue this discussion, let\'s take it off topic.

Pat

P.S. I\'m really a nice guy, despite my apparent tendency to lash out at unsuspecting souls.

[Thomas_J]

I really don\'t understand why you guys are taking TJ\'s posts all that serious? In defense of TJ I totally agree with him that the demos did not represent premium examples of what can be done with the library. At least not based on the feedback of beta-testers. I don\'t think TJ meant to insult anyone personally, as we were told that the demos were put together by various beta-testers. I\'m sure TJ wasn\'t aware that he might be insulting Tom indirectly, in a way that would hurt Tom\'s feelings.

There\'s one thing that TJ fails to understand, however; With demos for sample libraries one should not question the actual quality of compositions, rather the quality of sequencing and technical work that bring the samples to your attention. I for one couldn\'t care less if someone composed a shi*ty atonal piece of sh*t with sh*t on top, as long as it was done with obvious knowledge of proper sequencing techniques and the instruments involved. It\'s a demo. You show me the samples, I\'ll compose the music.

PatS, your reaction is way too strong. Give people a chance to utter their opinions. What do you think it is like for directors of film? getting all the negative reviews when he thought he\'d made a good movie? That\'s life. You can\'t please everyone at the same time, and you certainly can\'t blame someone for disliking something, be it a composition or a movie. Sure, you can argue, but based on my experience with discussions on this forum, that never does anyone a favour. Just leave it at ease will you? Lets talk about the library! When will we see some new mp3s? :P

Thomas

[This message has been edited by Thomas_J (edited 08-02-2001).]

[TJ]

So you\'re a beta-tester Pat?. Then place an MP3 on this thread and let me hear your skills as a composer and musician. I want you to show me what you can do with this library. That\'s all I ask for.

\"Impressive\" - I want your MP3s to impress me Pat. No skimping on quality now hmm!.

Your comments would hardly be allowed in a treatise now would they?. Intellectual your personal attacks are most certainly not.

If you\'d bother to look then you\'d know my email address is already on this thread.

Speak with your music Pat. Not your mouth. It might be more impressive.

[tomhartman]

I think this discussion has gotten way too personal, and far afield of the orginal subject. Count me in the camp that could care less how well the demo is composed......a live string section playing a bad composition still sounds like a live string section, and I didn\'t really hear any bad compositions. Wasn\'t listening to grade the writing.

I spent some time last night under headphones on Gary\'s main site, where he has some mp3s snippets of examples of the new library. I then went over to the ILIO site and the NEMESYS page where they have mp3s of different libraries. Here\'s what I heard.

The Vitous strings sounded a bit on the murky side, and more distant. Still, they had a pleasing overall character, from a general timbre aspect.

Now to Gary\'s. First the good news. Gary\'s strings sounded like they were sitting in front of you. There was no odd tonal thing going on (well, let me amend that...the viola example sounded a bit odd) but overall Gary\'s strings sounded like the strings do when I do a session with real string players. Very impressive.

Now the downside, and this is just to me.
Gary\'s strings sounded like they were right in front of me....but they sounded like they were six feet in front of me. This was the same feeling I got when I first heard the DennyJ strings. They came off as miked too close, and the section too small. Now someone\'s going to write back and say...\"Gary used 250 first violins and 125 second violins, you\'re crazy,\" but I
can only go by what i head. For my tasted, they were very upfront, and on the bright side.

So in CHARACTER, if not anything else, I felt like the Miroslav strings sounded a bit more useful for me. Not better...actually, not as defined and not as immediate...but perhaps more realistic for how I like the strings to sound. Many times we do not have the budgets for large string sessions.....so we\'ll book 12 violins, 4 violas, and two vc and just overdub. The sound is never the same as if we had been able to use a 24, 16 and 8 section in the first place, but it beats samples and sounds good.

So for me, it might be that the answer is going completely nuts and getting both libraries, and combining the strings to get the definition from Gary\'s....and the distance and softer timbre from Miroslav.

I have not worked with either of these libraries hands on, so this all speculation based on some mp3 experts. I could be totally wrong....but then again, without spending over a thousand dollars, I won\'t really know...and that\'s a real crapshoot.

I\'d welcome feedback from those who have used both libraries.

[Damon]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tomhartman:
So for me, it might be that the answer is going completely nuts and getting both libraries, and combining the strings to get the definition from Gary\'s....and the distance and softer timbre from Miroslav.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


If that\'s the case, forget it. I don\'t want to have to use Miroslav, AO, or Ultimate Strings anymore. The whole case of me getting Gigastrings was to do away with all of my existing string libraries. I\'m starting to get very skeptical now as what to do! http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/confused.gif
Tom, you now say the strings sound like they were mic\'d far to close and to bright. I\'m wondering whether they\'re gonna sound like Advanced Orchestra or Ultimate Strings now.
Someone else please tell me whether they\'re worth buying before I drop 1000 bucks. From what I heard of the older short examples of MP3s, they sounded great, what\'s the deal now?
Are they or aren\'t they the answer to the best soundtrack string library available?

[This message has been edited by Damon (edited 08-02-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Damon (edited 08-02-2001).]

[TJ]

I too like to hear samples in isolation. Listening to cellos playing trem buried deep under a layer of brass and woodwind isn\'t immediately helpful. But I do recall being so very unimpressed with the Vitous demos and I know I\'d have bought the library much sooner than I did if I\'d heard it being used to its full potential.

If you want to buy an expensive suit from a top catalogue then you don\'t just request a sample portion of fabric. You\'d want to see how it could look in the best possible light (preferably using a model or mannequin of the same dimensions as yourself although this may be a little unreasonable!).

[tomhartman]

\"\"Gary used 250 first violins and 125 second violins, you\'re crazy,\" but I
can only go by what i head. For my tasted, they were very upfront, and on the bright side.\"

Boy talk about typing fast...sorry for the typos.

[Simon Ravn]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TJ:
So you\'re a beta-tester Pat?. Then place an MP3 on this thread and let me hear your skills as a composer and musician. I want you to show me what you can do with this library. That\'s all I ask for.

\"Impressive\" - I want your MP3s to impress me Pat. No skimping on quality now hmm!.

Your comments would hardly be allowed in a treatise now would they?. Intellectual your personal attacks are most certainly not.

If you\'d bother to look then you\'d know my email address is already on this thread.

Speak with your music Pat. Not your mouth. It might be more impressive.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


I think you will get to listen to some stuff done by Pat and other beta testers sooner or later. But we can\'t just post demos left and right without an agreement with Tom and Gary, and I really think the demos belong at the GOS page and not in this forum or in yours or other peoples emails.

[tomhartman]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Damon:

If that\'s the case, forget it. I don\'t want to have to use Miroslav, AO, or Ultimate Strings anymore. The whole case of me getting Gigastrings was to do away with all of my existing string libraries. I\'m starting to get very skeptical now as what to do! http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/confused.gif
Tom, you now say the strings sound like they were mic\'d far to close and to bright. I\'m wondering whether they\'re gonna sound like Advanced Orchestra or Ultimate Strings now.


Damon, it\'s anyone\'s guess until we have them in hand...then it\'s too late if they aren\'t what you want. I can only go by the mp3s, and they sound a bit up front and on the bright side. The brightness can be worked with....the miking cannot. Certainly one of the key secrets to orchestral string samples sounding good is using a great hall reverb...you\'ll notice James Newton Howard has a 480...far out of most our budgets...but even a reasonably good hall noticeably helps and some work with the brightness via EQ, or blending them with muted samples, might do the trick.

One of the big problems we are dealing with is the fact that when you hear Alan Silvestri in \"Back to The Future\" or Williams in \"JFK\" you are dealing with LARGE string sections. Larger than most sampling endeavors could ever afford to have sitting there sampling different bowing methods for 3 days. So to compare these libraries to those recordings is apples and oranges, in that sense. But if we can\'t have sections that large sampled, then EVERY other aspect, must be right or the whole thing is just another library we have to combine with another library, etc.

I WILL SAY IT AGAIN. I will wait for the final release of Gary\'s before doing anything. I can only go by the mp3s. Fingers are crossed.
[This message has been edited by Damon (edited 08-02-2001).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[TJ]

\"But we can\'t just post demos left and right without an agreement with Tom and Gary\"

Tom and Gary wont allow anyone to release MP3s of what they\'ve been doing?. Why is this?. Not meant to sound forceful, I\'m just curious as to why nothing has been released. People have been saying they\'ve been making great music with the library so is it unreasonanle to ask to hear it?. I am genuinely looking forward to hearing some great stuf!

[Simon Ravn]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TJ:
\"But we can\'t just post demos left and right without an agreement with Tom and Gary\"

Tom and Gary wont allow anyone to release MP3s of what they\'ve been doing?. Why is this?. Not meant to sound forceful, I\'m just curious as to why nothing has been released. People have been saying they\'ve been making great music with the library so is it unreasonanle to ask to hear it?. I am genuinely looking forward to hearing some great stuf!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


I think MP3\'s should be released through Gary, not by the individual betatesters, and I know that Gary is interested in posting in the near future hopefully.

[Jamieh]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Gary\'s strings sounded like they were right in front of me....but they sounded like they were six feet in front of me. This was the same feeling I got when I first heard the DennyJ strings. They came off as miked too close, and the section too small. For my tasted, they were very upfront, and on the bright side.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Tom, I know you talked about this in your last post, but I\'m pretty confident that you could adjust this with the proper effects box. I think sample developers have to make the dry samples upfront and bright so that when you DO put them in a big reverb hall they don\'t just wash away into the mix.

[PatS]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Thomas_J:
PatS, your reaction is way too strong. Give people a chance to utter their opinions. What do you think it is like for directors of film? getting all the negative reviews when he thought he\'d made a good movie? That\'s life. You can\'t please everyone at the same time, and you certainly can\'t blame someone for disliking something, be it a composition or a movie. Sure, you can argue, but based on my experience with discussions on this forum, that never does anyone a favour. Just leave it at ease will you? Lets talk about the library!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, it was way too strong. However, I see that TJ is still banging on the same door: to paraphrase him loosely, \"give me your original works so I can tell if you are a decent composer and thus worthy of my trust in your opinion.\" Fine. When time permits maybe I\'ll put something together (between beta testing and raising three young children, I have very little time left in the evening for myself or my wife). I have to admit, and maybe others see it as well, that his recent post to me indicates he is less interested in the library than he is in critiquing the compositional integrity of whatever we may provide. But we\'re not asking for his opinion of our music (pace your movie critique analogy), which is why I suggested he and others offer some examples from the literature (e.g., J. S. Bach\'s Brandenburg Concerto No. 5, Mozart\'s Overture to the Magic Flute, Tchaikovsky\'s Serenade for Strings, Schoenberg\'s Verklarte Nacht, Barber\'s Adagio, or Lutoslawski\'s Funeral Music, to name but a few). Let\'s find a common ground that draws attention to the library and not to us. When (most) everyone has heard what they need to hear in order to make a final decision about purchasing the library, then we can move on to our music, which everyone here agrees is our ultimate goal. And then TJ can really have at us (we\'re not as thin-skinned as he and others might believe). :-)

Per your request and surely the request of others, I will ease up on these points and redirect my attention to the library.

Pat

[KingIdiot]

<---nearly craps his pants when he sees the 94 posts...

anyhow,

Tom- there are \"warmer\" versions of some of the instruments, which help with music for underscore.

I personally like having the brighter sound than the murky sound to start with. Its always harder for me to \"put back\" the bright sound when I need it with other libraries. Also, these samples take well to reverbs

I\'ve always found myself doing post production on all my samples, and mixes for different effects and different end results. IMO GOS gives me the best starting point. I can use EQs to dip (always sounds better than boosting to me), or use Mic sims, or plug ins, or what have you. Some people find this to be a problem, since they want that DEEP reverb sound. I think a closer micd sound is a better choice for the end user since its not just ONE user that will buy/use the library, and ONE reverberated sound wont work all the time. Not to mention the added polyphony count for release triggers, on top of all the other features...maybe when Gigastudio 1600 comes out...then I want a library that comes with crossfading beteeen mic placement/ambience level, 8 dynamic layers, 8 versions EVERY sample, tightly tuned and \"natural\" versions of every sample...and fries....curly ones!!


By the way have I mentioned I\'m a guitar player?......I used to shred too.. actually I\'m freakn awesome.....I rule!!! ... but that lead singer always got more attention!! damn him...DAMN HIM ALL TO HELL..dirty ape!!

------------------
Really...I am an Idiot

[carlgt1]

Heehee, it is funny seeing all the egotistical guitarists coming out of the closet in this thread (myself included)! ;-)

What I find funny about this whole diatribe is that with all the pseudo-scientific analysis etc it all basically just comes down to personal preference whether one prefers this sample lib vs that one, etc. It\'s not like you can quantify things like user taste. You really only know until after you\'ve spent thousands on sample libraries that it\'s wrong for you! :-)

[IOComposer]

You all know why guitar players are like vacuum cleaners, right?

http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

[tomhartman]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by IOComposer:
You all know why guitar players are like vacuum cleaners, right?

http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, but I know why they don\'t send donkeys to college.... http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif

[Haydn]

I was joking to Gary the other night that this thread may get to 100 posts - pretty darn close!!

I agree with King Idiot that this library takes well to reverbs - even my cruddy old one!! The releases are also programmed well and don\'t get muddy in fast passages.

By the way have I mentioned I\'m a guitar player?......I used to shred too.. actually I\'m freakn awesome.....I rule!!! ... but I became the lead singer, too!!!!!

[TJ]

...jumps in quickly......


100 - da daaaaaa!!!

[PatS]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TJ:
If you\'d bother to look then you\'d know my email address is already on this thread.
[/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I see it now. Thanks for pointing this out.

Pat

[Damon]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tomhartman:
[B]
Gary\'s strings sounded like they were right in front of me....but they sounded like they were six feet in front of me. For my tasted, they were very upfront, and on the bright side.
/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The strings were miked with two pairs of microphones (a pair of B&K 4006 and a pair of Neumann KM84s). One pair was placed about 15 -20 feet away and the other pair further back in the hall.
Sounds good to me! http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif


[This message has been edited by Damon (edited 08-03-2001).]

[tomhartman]

They sound like the kind of strings I use when I use real ones, and I think that will ultimately be the reason I buy them. I will hope they can get a bit more mellow of a sound using the mutes or whatever, but for realism, their immediacy and transparency is impressive.

OK already,, so when are these things due to be released??

[Jamesmcwilliams]

From what i\'ve read as i\'ve skimmed through this topic, a lot of people are hoping that gigastrings is going to sound like a stringsection as soon as they press a key down, and thats probably asking for too much.

I\'ve only got AO strings, but i\'ve found that i can get very convincing results.

I\'ll put my money where my mouth is and let you hear some of my work...
www.scorecentral.net/jamesmcwilliams (\"http://www.scorecentral.net/jamesmcwilliams\")

Check out \"earththeme\" and \"mission accomplished\" in particular (they contain mostly strings, the others are primarily brass).

Now, i\'m not claiming that my compositions sound exactly like a real string section, but its quite convincing (ish).
I\'ve heard some AO strings and i thought they sounded very fake.

I reckon gigastrings will be a great improvment in strings, but just don\'t expect them to sound real as soon as you load the samples up and play your old string midi files. From my humble experience, mixing the AO samples together can achieve great results.

[ryounger]

If this library saves me time in midi orchastration, and gets me the feel of some real strings, it\'s worth the $$$. Also if the pre order price is $1000, then what is the full price? If it goes up much higher I will be priced out.

Russ

[EternalBlue]

I believe the non-preorder price is like $1400...Which is why I\'m hoping for some real demos. At this point I\'m not sure on which I\'ll get yet, US, AO or GS. GS\'s preorder price is already pushing it against the line for me...So I\'m really hoping for a demo song that can help me decide, and one hopefully with some time between that and it\'s actual release.

[mahlon]

James McWilliams,
Your compositions sound great --compositiionally and sound-wise. I\'ve always thought that the AO strings could be coaxed into really good performance, as well. And that goes for the AO library in general. It has lots of life in it. AO may not be the newest and take advantage of GS sophistication as much as other libraries, but if you know how to use it....

The AO strings can sometimes add a great deal of realism in a good layer behind Kirk Hunter\'s strings (Vitous as well)--or in the right passages, alone.

Anyway, really good job.

Mahlon Bouldin

[tomhartman]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jamesmcwilliams:
F<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

James, now see this is a perfect example of how different everyone\'s ears are.

First off, I loved your writing, and most of the sounds were super. You can tell it took a lot of work, because I\'ve been there.

But \"Earththeme,\" from the moment the high violins came in, immediately sounded sampled to me. And this is the problem a lot of times with my work and the work I hear of others. The celli, the low stuff, seems pretty OK from almost all the libraries, especially buried in the mass. But high violins, geez. They are a huge problem. I just did a national spot for \"Opryland,\" a very beautiful and haunting thing that ambles around with some tinkling up front then crescendos into a huge theme that ends the spot. Everything sounds fine until then. That huge theme comes in, with the violins playing tutti and I hate it. The client loved it, and it\'s not God awful, but it sounds fake to me. I used Roland and Denny Jagger strings which often work great for me, but when a big line like that comes in...huge, high and legato, I\'m sunk. That\'s what I\'m hoping Gary\'s strings will help me with. And lots of reverb http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif

[Jamesmcwilliams]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tomhartman:
James, now see this is a perfect example of how different everyone\'s ears are.

First off, I loved your writing, and most of the sounds were super. You can tell it took a lot of work, because I\'ve been there.

But \"Earththeme,\" from the moment the high violins came in, immediately sounded sampled to me. And this is the problem a lot of times with my work and the work I hear of others. The celli, the low stuff, seems pretty OK from almost all the libraries, especially buried in the mass. But high violins, geez. They are a huge problem. I just did a national spot for \"Opryland,\" a very beautiful and haunting thing that ambles around with some tinkling up front then crescendos into a huge theme that ends the spot. Everything sounds fine until then. That huge theme comes in, with the violins playing tutti and I hate it. The client loved it, and it\'s not God awful, but it sounds fake to me. I used Roland and Denny Jagger strings which often work great for me, but when a big line like that comes in...huge, high and legato, I\'m sunk. That\'s what I\'m hoping Gary\'s strings will help me with. And lots of reverb http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmmm, i see what you mean. strings are so dynamic that perhaps we will never be able to completely simulate them. I think perhaps people who aren\'t very familier with strings (apart from the occasional pop songs string sections), earth theme\'s high violins would be convincing (my mother and friends were impressed after all http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif )

I\'m constantly trying to get better results, (the ones on my site are quite old compositions). But, like you said, all ears are different. I\'ll stick some of my latest fast string pieces online sometime in the future, i\'d be very interested on your feedback on them...because i feel that i\'m slowly getting closer and closer to realism.
perhaps we can all try and work together and let each other know of any advances we make, detailing what we done to get the effect.

Same goes for brass, the track \"cade abandons the huluxio\" is a brass intensive bombastic action peice, and although i am pleased with it...the brass still doesn\'t quite cut it (i\'ll probably try and scavenge some budget for some real players).

http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

[tomhartman]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jamesmcwilliams:
[B] Hmmm, i see what you mean. strings are so dynamic that perhaps we will never be able to completely simulate them. I think perhaps people who aren\'t very familier with strings (apart from the occasional pop songs string sections), earth theme\'s high violins would be convincing (my mother and friends were impressed after all http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif )\"

Hey, I\'ve got those friends too! http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif

You know James, another thing that sometimes happens....sometimes we get used to a particular patch..it sounds pretty OK to us...even though know it\'s not perfect...and we start using it a lot. Usually...hopefully...the fact that are music is strong overcomes or compensates for the samples at times. But then suddenly, one day, somebody says something....something about a patch we\'ve gotten comfortable with over time...and we get defensive ( I do, anyway) but after they leave....you listen, and you realize that yeah...it doesn\'t really sound that great. You just \"settled\" for that sound a long time ago (perhaps because you couldn\'t find, or afford, anything better) and you got used to it.

So I think it would be good....if not...humbling...to have others up here listen to each other and give praise where it\'s due, and constructive criticism as well. Not remarks about composing skills....that\'s too subjective and isn\'t the topic. But a healthy discourse on the sounds themselves, I believe would be very helpful. By the way, nice web page and again, very cool writing, particularly your brass stuff.

[Jamesmcwilliams]

I think you\'ve nailed it on the head there.

I do remember actually disliking the high violins when i first loaded them up.
In the future, perhaps it will be best if i take heed of my first impressions http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

By the way, is there anywhere i can hear some of your work? I always love listening to other peoples work, especially giga users.

I\'ll post some new stuff up that i think is quite convincing sometime soon.

thanks for the comments.



------------------
www.scorecentral.net/jamesmcwilliams (\"http://www.scorecentral.net/jamesmcwilliams\")

[tomhartman]

James, yes I\'ll get a couple of mp3s together, I just can\'t find the area up here where users post their mp3 examples (I\'m relatively new up here). If you can direct me to where I can do that, I\'d be glad to upload some.

In about two weeks I\'ll get the Gigasampler. It\'s being built by soundchaser right now...and I\'m both excited and leary....as a Mac user running the PC and a program like GIGA, which I hear has a rough manual....I hope will not be too daunting...

[cc]

How about giving us a demo GIG file or two, with only a few notes mapped, so that we can do a limited testing (without MP3 degredation) of both the sound and the responsiveness / programming ?

[Jamesmcwilliams]

The only place i can think of right now is mp3.com, before i got my website that was the only place i could post mp3\'s

I would normally be happy to lend some of my webspace, but I\'m \"borrowing\" my websites space from scorecentral and i have to send stuff to them to get it put up, rather than maintaining my site myself.

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With regards to posting restricted edited gig files, as long as that is not illegal (anyone know if its okay?) then i think that is a great idea. We can try and help each other push the barriers a bit.




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www.scorecentral.net/jamesmcwilliams (\"http://www.scorecentral.net/jamesmcwilliams\")

[Adrian H]

I\'ve been following this thread with great interest.

As it stands, I doubt that any String samples will ever sound realistic enough to the trained ear.

The problem is that if you get a group of musicians together, as they play they automatically compensate there sound, volume, articulation etc. to what is going on around them - Player Interaction - , and this is where samples fail, in that they are just recordings, they don\'t have their own life, an ability to interact with the other sounds that are going on around them.

Yes, you can get pretty close these days with samples that are Gigs in size, but whenever a new set of samples comes everyone will love them for a short while, but then they\'re going to listen to real players again and start to want some more samples that little bit better, little bit more musical, or tonally slightly different etc.

No matter how many sets of samples you have, the real thing will always sound better!

Thats just the way it is!

Don\'t get me wrong, great things can be done with samples, but the live sound is, I believe, un-achievable.

Then again, I\'m spoilt because I\'m used to playing with pro orchestras! http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif

[Adrian H]

After re-reading my long winded post above, I think what I am trying to say is that to keep buying or wanting new sets of samples such as Gary\'s new string set is like trying to chase perfection, when perfection down the sample route for orchestral instrument samples is impossible.

So don\'t bother buying lots of different sample sets, just get to grips with the sets that you have and get the best out of them by learning all their variations etc completely.


Hope you all can figure out what I think I\'m trying to say!

Cheers
Adrian

[tomhartman]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Adrian H:


So don\'t bother buying lots of different sample sets, just get to grips with the sets that you have and get the best out of them by learning all their variations etc completely.

No recording will ever sound exactly like a live event, but that doesn\'t prevent audio developers from continuing to refine the gear. Nor should it stop sample developers. A few years back, there was no GIGA sampler, and the step towards realism took, at least potentially, a giant leap once memory limitations were no longer a concern.

Will it ever sound as good as a live performance? Probably not. Can it get so close that it doesn\'t much matter? I believe so. The people doing it just have to be players and fans of the orchestra and film world themselves. They can\'t mike instruments from a foot away and then suggest you go put a lot of reverb on the sample.

But with the right guys in back of a project, I think the technical constraints are rapidly disappearing...it\'s more and more up to the programmers, and we who use the stuff .
Hope you all can figure out what I think I\'m trying to say!

Cheers
Adrian<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>