Aria ignores first note

[TinPanAlley]

When I try to bounce to audio using Aria, the first MIDI note is skipped if that note is located at 1:01:000. I am using Sonar Home Studio 7. This problem only exists when using Aria (Kontakt, and other soft synths are OK). I even dug up my old copy of HS6 and it has the same result. I just started noticing this as most of the stuff I sequence has pick-up notes that begin toward the end of measure 1, so the problem didn't exist.

Is there some setting I have messed up in Aria causing it to ignore any notes at 1:01:000? It doesn't seem to matter what duration the note is (quarter, sixteenth, etc.).

I have tried regular and fast bouncing with results the same. It surely is something stupid I'm doing but I can't figure out what. To me it looks like the "now" time doesn't go back far enough to catch the first note, but that should be the same no matter which synth I use. The MBT indicator shows that the now time starts at 1:01:000.

Any help will be greatly appreciated!

Thanks,

Tom

[pascalM]

I don't remember what is the cause of this issue, but adding an empty(silence) bar/measure at the beginning should "fix" it.

[TinPanAlley]

Pascal,

Thanks for the reply and that is indeed the workaround I'm using. I set a real high tempo for the first measure (to avoid the start delay) then set the desired tempo at measure 2. Still it's kind of a pain to go through this using Aria when the other synths I use (including a couple of hardware synths), don't require it.

When I just listen to the piece of music (MIDI) using Aria, it picks up all the notes. It's only when I want to record the audio (bounce to an audio track) that it chooses to ignore all notes that start at 1:01:000. I even tried setting the notes a few ticks late in case it was a timing problem on start, but to no avail.

I surmise by what you said that I'm not alone in this situation and hope maybe someone has a fix.

Thanks again for your reply,

Tom

[Haydn]

Sonar needs time at the beginning to send out data. Speeding up the tempo that fast causes sonar not enough time to do the original data so it has to catch up messing up the first notes. Add the extra measure but keep the tempo at the same speed as your sequence. Cut out the silence out at the beginning after bouncing to an audio track.

Jim

[TinPanAlley]

Jim,

Thanks so much for your reply. I think you might have misunderstood about the tempo thing. The first note (if located at 1:01:000) is missed no matter how slow or fast the tempo is. The workaround is just to start the piece of music at measure 2 instead of 1. Since measure 1 is blank, I use a fast tempo for it and then slow the tempo down to what I want for the piece at measure 2. By using a very fast tempo, the dead time is minimized. Sonar doesn't have to read any notes at the fast tempo, the first notes it sees are at the beginning of measure 2 which are at a reasonable tempo.

Your suggestion about eliminating the dead time in the audio domain is good, but I still think it's a bit of a pain to have to do all this only when using Aria. It's apparently not a Sonar problem since all other synths work fine except Aria.

Thanks again for your time,

Tom

[Larry G. Alexander]

Jim knew exactly what you were saying. Sonar needs time at the beginning to send data.

I am a Sonar user and I have hundreds of compositions to my credit. Each has a blank measure at the beginning.

Regards,

[Raymond62]

Jim knew exactly what you were saying. Sonar needs time at the beginning to send data.

I am a Sonar user and I have hundreds of compositions to my credit. Each has a blank measure at the beginning.

Regards,

Not hundreds, but I always insert a blank measure.......

Raymond

[TinPanAlley]

Thanks to all, but I still don't see how this is a Sonar problem - taking time to straighten itself out at the beginning. I just checked again, and Kontakt and other synths do not exhibit the "Sonar" problem, only Aria. For the record, as long as I start my Aria piece at measure 2, I can set the tempo to 1000 BPM, bounce to audio, and the first note of the piece (located now at 2:01:000) sounds OK. If I start my Aria piece at measure 1 (1:01:000) , even at 1 BPM the first note will not show up in the audio track. Based on this, I don't think tempo has any bearing on the problem. I'm sorry I got into any mention of tempo. Since I must have a blank measure at the start of every Aria piece, I simply give that blank measure a quick tempo to cut down the wait time. The move to measure 2 was necessitated by Aria's skipping the first note, regardless of the piece's tempo, not because of any fast tempo.

It seems as though I've made everyone angry and I sincerely apologize. I'm just trying to see if there is something I have overlooked. I surmise everyone who uses Aria has the same problem and is happy with the measure 2 start. Earlier in the thread, a gentleman named Pascal said he thought there was a fix but couldn't remember what it was.

I'll not waste any more of your time on this, I appreciate the time you have spent.

Tom

[Haydn]

It's not the tempo that is the problem. It's the time that Sonar needs to send data to the plugins before the first note starts.

I always leave a measure at the beginning of all pieces. I insert controller data such as initial volume, panning, and other controller info in this measure. There will always be time needed for this data to be sent before the first note sounds no matter which plugins you use. This is an even bigger issue if you use external synths and effects using regular MIDI connections as the MIDI spec can only send data at a limited rate of speed. The more controller data you have, the more glitching will occur. In the early days of MIDI this caused major timing issues in the first measure. I started adding the extra measure 25 years ago and it hasn't failed me since.

Jim

[rbowser-]

Listen to the advice on the thread, TinPan. I don't detect anger in anyone's responses, they've just been telling you how to fix your problem.

It's always a good idea to have a blank measure at the top of a Sonar project, no matter what soft synths you're using, and that's the way the vast majority of experienced users set their projects up.

"...Since measure 1 is blank, I use a fast tempo for it and then slow the tempo down to what I want for the piece at measure 2..."

You're not understanding that it isn't necessary to insert that one measure of faster tempo. I understand you're doing it to hurry things up so the music starts ASAP. - But at some point you'll export your mix. Most of us do some mastering work once we have a 2-track master. That can be worked on in a dedicated audio editing program like Sound Forge, or re-imported into Sonar as a fresh project. At that time, you cut off the opening blank measure. --That's standard procedure.

Randy

[marce]

Thanks to all, but I still don't see how this is a Sonar problem - taking time to straighten itself out at the beginning. I just checked again, and Kontakt and other synths do not exhibit the "Sonar" problem, only Aria. For the record, as long as I start my Aria piece at measure 2, I can set the tempo to 1000 BPM, bounce to audio, and the first note of the piece (located now at 2:01:000) sounds OK. If I start my Aria piece at measure 1 (1:01:000) , even at 1 BPM the first note will not show up in the audio track. Based on this, I don't think tempo has any bearing on the problem. I'm sorry I got into any mention of tempo. Since I must have a blank measure at the start of every Aria piece, I simply give that blank measure a quick tempo to cut down the wait time. The move to measure 2 was necessitated by Aria's skipping the first note, regardless of the piece's tempo, not because of any fast tempo.

It seems as though I've made everyone angry and I sincerely apologize. I'm just trying to see if there is something I have overlooked. I surmise everyone who uses Aria has the same problem and is happy with the measure 2 start. Earlier in the thread, a gentleman named Pascal said he thought there was a fix but couldn't remember what it was.

I'll not waste any more of your time on this, I appreciate the time you have spent.

Tom

Do you have the last ARIA update? I have Cakewalk Music Creator, that is same that Sonar Home Studio 7 but with less simultaneous inputs, and i dont have this problem. I plays and render ok the first note at 1.01.000

[rbowser-]

TinPan--I'll repeat that it's common procedure for Sonar users to leave a blank measure at the start of projects. It simply makes life easier. People using hardware synths absolutely must have the blank first measure so Sonar can send out all the data, maybe even SysEx needed to get the hardware up to speed for playback.

Learn from those with more experience, and you'll never have this particular hassle again.

Randy

[TinPanAlley]

Randy,

Thanks for chipping in. I said I wasn't going to take this any further, but I have two hardware synths that I regularly use, and they never miss a note at 1:01:000. Likewise 4 or 5 soft synths other than Aria. Only Aria exhibits the problem. I just can't seem to grasp why everyone is so determined the problem is Sonar. It's obviously a coordination problem between Sonar and Aria. I think all the data exchange for start is supposed to take place before the now time starts. Sometimes there is a slight delay when I hit the "Go" button and I believe that delay is all the sysex, etc., data transfer. I can't believe any programmer would knowingly allow start to occur without having all the "ducks in a row". This I believe to be confirmed by my not having any start problems with my hardware synths. Also, there are no start problems when just listening to the MIDI piece using Aria. Again, it's only when bouncing to audio that the problem occurs. If there were start problems, such as late sysex data transfer caused by Sonar, then I would think it would be dropping starting notes when just listening. Having had no problem prior to Aria, which I thought was only a couple years old, I'm wondering why the fraternity has always started Sonar at measure 2. Maybe I've just been lucky in the selection of hard and soft synths that I've used.

Please don't even take time to answer. This is really finis for me. I'll probably pursue this some with the Aria folks, and in the meantime just go back to Kontakt. Guess it boils down to my not caring for workarounds. Like paying good money for a car in which you must back up 27 feet before you can go forward. Sure, it's something you can live with, but why?

The end,

Tom

[rbowser-]

Hi, Tom - Not taking your advice to not reply, hehe.

"...I'll probably pursue this some with the Aria folks, and in the meantime just go back to Kontakt..."

You ought to think about that again, and when you do, I'm sure you'll see that to take a step backwards (going back to Kontakt) would be a sillier work-around than the starting on measure two advice which you consider a "work-around."

And then you could also ask yourself why it's an issue to get so hot and bothered about. When I'm telling you that it's general practice to start a Sonar project on measure two, I'm referring to a practice that pre-dates Aria by years. Working that way has nothing to do with Aria. It's an extremely simple thing to do. Starting on measure two ensures the user that absolutely everything will be starting spot-on with beat one the way you want it to. Why muck around insisting on starting on beat one of measure one if the results aren't as perfect as your music deserves?

Some people, when using hardware synths, will have quite a block of data to spit out at the very start - effect settings, sys ex data, and when they do that, they really need that empty measure.

In my experience, there are sundry other soft synths that have a problem grabbing the first note of a passage.

But none of that is a worry or any kind of hassle to me since, like most experienced Sonar users, I start a piece on measure two. Gives me a very solid way to begin laying in tracks also, with that extra measure of metronome before playing a new track.

So you have two choices - Stay unhappy and disgruntled and refuse to use Aria again because of a very minor issue, go back to Kontakt which doesn't give you as many instruments, doesn't sound as good - Or simply start your projects on measure two and keep all the good stuff you have going with Aria.

Randy

[marce]

Randy,


Please don't even take time to answer. This is really finis for me. I'll probably pursue this some with the Aria folks, and in the meantime just go back to Kontakt.


Tom

Hi Tom. Unfortunately, i had issues between cakewalk and kontakt too, in the past (like you can read here (http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/showthread.php/55480-Bug-in-KP223-when-rendering?highlight=cakewalk)) Be sure you will not found that problems.
ARIA is a very nice engine, im not using it with cakewalk anymore, but as i pointed before, i dont have that issue between them. Are you using the last ARIA engine?

[David (plogue)]

Hi

This has been reported in the past and only happens in :fast bounce:
Sonar does weird process priority changes right after the FIRST MIDI beat is played, which makes us reset
our MIDI stream. Comparing ARIA with Kontakt or other VSTis is pointless. Any Host and any Plugin intepret the specs in their own way. No good or bad ways, since the spec is notoriously badly defined. Aria doesnt behave this way in any other hosts, should i conclude Sonar is bad? No just an minor incompatibilily in desing.

We did a fix in september for this, are you SURE you have the latest ARIA PlayerVST x86.dll in your VST folder?
can you tell me which version it is?

[rbowser-]

Hi

This has been reported in the past and only happens in :fast bounce:
Sonar does weird process priority changes right after the FIRST MIDI beat is played, which makes us reset
our MIDI stream. Comparing ARIA with Kontakt or other VSTis is pointless. Any Host and any Plugin intepret the specs in their own way. No good or bad ways, since the spec is notoriously badly defined. Aria doesnt behave this way in any other hosts, should i conclude Sonar is bad? No just an minor incompatibilily in desing.

We did a fix in september for this, are you SURE you have the latest ARIA PlayerVST x86.dll in your VST folder?
can you tell me which version it is?
David, it's great to see you on this thread. Thanks much for your response.

Kicking myself for not bringing up this whole thing about Sonar's fast bounce. I should have remembered - when Aria first came out, we were given patient instructions on how un-like Kontakt which records best in fast bounce, Aria needed that option un-checked, otherwise it wasn't getting the signal from Sonar that a rendering was being requested. That was some time ago now, it had slipped my mind when this thread came up.

I've continued to record Aria tracks with fast bounce un-checked. Now with the latest version of Aria, you're saying we no longer need to do that?

Randy

[TinPanAlley]

David,

Thanks so much for your reply. I just did a download of Aria updates and on the "Settings" page Aria says "v1.098". I assume that to be the latest version. The .dll files (both single and multi) just say "VST_x86". A check after the download showed the same problem at 1:01:000 with either fast or slow bounce using Sonar HS6.

Maybe it's my computer. I's a fairly old e-machines T-2858 with a 2gig AMD chip and 2 gigs of RAM. My sound card is a Soundblaster Live.

I feel as though I'm cluttering up the Forum. If you wish you can contact me direct at: tsclinton4@yahoo.com

Thanks again,

Tom

[David (plogue)]

David,
Thanks so much for your reply. I just did a download of Aria updates and on the "Settings" page Aria says "v1.098". I assume that to be the latest version. The .dll files (both single and multi) just say "VST_x86". A check after the download showed the same problem at 1:01:000 with either fast or slow bounce using Sonar HS6.


The version of ARIA is right, but im wondering about the VST wrapper version aka ARIA Player VST_x86.dll
or ARIA Player Multi VST_x86.dll in the VST folder that sonar uses., i suspect it might be an older version.

[Haydn]

TinPanAlley,

I have a couple questions. When you start your first note on count 1 of measure 1, where do you put the initial CC1 settings or other controller settings? Where do you put your keyswitches for keyswitched instruments?

These are items that need to be before the first note on count 1. Another reason why you need the extra measure.

Jim

[rbowser-]

TinPanAlley,

I have a couple questions. When you start your first note on count 1 of measure 1, where do you put the initial CC1 settings or other controller settings? Where do you put your keyswitches for keyswitched instruments?

These are items that need to be before the first note on count 1. Another reason why you need the extra measure.

Jim
+1 for your post, Jim. It reminds me that something I've done before, when I've also rebelled at the concept of simply starting on measure 2, is to move the first note(s) a teeny bit to the right, not enough to be noticed in the timing, but enough to clear the decks for controllers and have Sonar catch those first notes for playback. It's something that can work, if the idea of starting on measure 2 is just too abhorrent.

I want to add that when I did that, it was way before Aria came out.

Randy

[TinPanAlley]

Jim,

I'm the first to acknowledge I'm not a very sophisticated sequencer. I set any initial keyswitches using the virtual keyboard at the bottom of the Aria screen when I set up the desired instruments. This sets the keyswitch for the first note. I then put in keyswitch notes, if desired, along the way. This seems to work for the limited keyswitching I do.

As far as continuous controllers, what little I do (mostly volume) I do with track envelopes. If I wish to start a piece off with a crescendo, I start with the volume envelope at a low level and then ramp it up as desired. This seems to work OK, at least to my cheap set of ears.


David,

How would I go about updating my .dll's if not by downloading Aria updates, as I have just done?

Thanks to both,

Tom

[sonata5920]

G’day,

I have never commented on Sonar. Why ? I do not have any problems with Sonar. I do not have Sonar. No doubt some forum members will think that I live a deprived life, a life deprived of Sonar.

Here are some general comments.

There may be some incompatibilities between Sonar and Aria in certain circumstances. However it would be up to Sonar to start off recording after all necessary setup procedures are in place. Perhaps a few msec or less would be necessary. Users would not complain even if the initial delay for the recording would be 100 msec. Aria is the slave in the process and reacts to the midi signals from Sonar or any other program.

Any key switch settings etcetera need to be before the first beat before the first bar. Randy’s suggestion to slightly delay the first beat, to make time for key switching is not tolerable to anybody with a good sense of time. Even a few msec are objectionable. Often there is an upbeat bar that can accommodate a very short note before the upbeat. If there is no upbeat bar, it is easy to add for instance an upbeat bar of a 1/32 note length. For recording to a CD, I always make sure that the song starts off with about 50 msec silence to accommodate poor CD drives.


Herbert

[rbowser-]

To be extremely redundant, I will say again that the general practice of experienced Sonar users is to insert an extra measure at the start of a project. It insures that everything is up to speed by the time a piece actually starts. That buffering measure can be of any length one desires.

The mention of moving starting notes slightly to the right was a confession about something I did a few times in the past when I was rebelling against starting a piece on measure two (when there isn't an upbeat bar). That practice wasn't being suggested as a preferred work-around, as was clear in the post when I mentioned it. Adding a bar was and is the preferred fix being offered.

The basic point is that it doesn't matter if you find a soft synth which in conjunction with Sonar is making for a skipped first note. The fix is extremely simple. No need to stress about it and abandon the synth, just add the measure and get on with the music.

Randy B.

[Haydn]

I do large projects regularly with 50-100 tracks using quite a few VSTi plugins besides the Garritan ones. So I've found the extra measure to be essential to my work.

I always put all keyswitches into the track they are needed on and never do it from the VSTi GUI. Also, I usually will add the keyswitches to each section (usually every 16 measures depending on the piece) even if the patch doesn't change. This cuts down on the wrong sound playing when I start playback in various measures.

I never use track envelopes for MIDI tracks except maybe for pans. I usually only use track envelopes for audio tracks. For MIDI tracks I find the PRV controller view the easiest to work with. I try not to mix track envelopes with the PRV controllers in the same track as this can lead to some strange results.

Sonar has quite a few ways to do the same things and everybody has a different way of working. I've been using Cakewalk (and then Sonar) for 20 years now and these are just things that I find work for me.

Jim

[rbowser-]

It's an excellent post, Jim. I say that because it's exactly the way I work - so it Has to be great. :o

PRV is The Heart of MIDI work in Sonar. I'm so glad you passed on the advice to not combine MIDI envelope work with PRV work - there's no point, and data is much easier to work with in PRV. Save working with envelopes for the bounced audio tracks.

Also, TinPan - I hope you take Jim's advice on having your opening key switches in the track itself instead of using the interface controls. You want the first sounds of your project to be on the correct instrument. If you don't have the opening key switched instruments in place - well, there's no reason not to. They need to be part of your project file.

I understand you want to keep your working method simple, TinPan, and that's great. You can just do a few things that help prevent the tools from fighting you.

Randy

[TinPanAlley]

OK guys, the brainwashing is complete. My mind is right. From now on I will start all projects at measure 2, or maybe 3 or 4 just for good measure (pun intended).

Just for the record, at least on my lash-up, the selection of instruments on Aria (including initial key switching) IS part of the project and DOES get saved when the project is saved.

As they said at the conclusion of the official Japanese surrender aboard the Battleship Missouri, "These proceedings are complete".

I promise to never open another thread.

Tom

[rbowser-]

Hi, Tom - Sounds like you feel a bit brow-beaten. I'm sorry if you do - I know all of us on the thread were trying to be helpful, to help you get on with the music rather than being stuck on a technical detail.

"...I promise to never open another thread..."

Hey now!--You Better start more threads, whenever you want, with any topic or question you want. Your thread here has not been "cluttering up the Forum." This is where these kind of questions are welcome. Really now!

I'm glad you brought this up, "...the selection of instruments on Aria (including initial key switching) IS part of the project and DOES get saved when the project is saved..."

You're right, exactly right. When that point was discussed earlier on the thread a few times, it was perhaps over-simplified.

There are at least two reasons for wanting all key switch notes to be in the project - One is just a matter of wanting to have a complete file, one with as much as possible in the tracks, for the sake of being complete. If you ended up wanting to collaborate with someone who uses a different brand of sequencer, you would be sending MIDI files. That collaborator would be setting up his own instances of Aria to accommodate the MIDI tracks, and that person would need the key switches in the file, otherwise there would be the awkward step of needing to know which key switch to select on the Aria GUI before playing.

More importantly, since it's an every-day thing you're dealing with - As you work on a project, you do a lot of starting and stopping. You could very well stop during a section when one key switch is activated, you start playback again from the top, and the wrong key switch could be engaged if it's not an event in your MIDI track. This is one of the things Jim was talking about when he said he'll repeat the same key switch several times during the span of a project, to help insure that when he starts playback from the middle somewhere, he's more likely to be on the right key switch.

Anyway - Keep the questions coming as they arise, and have fun with your projects.

Randy