Midi cc "off" Pedal problems Steinway - Once triggered always on

[fred Holmes]

Sonar 8.5.3 32bit
Steinway Standard (all updates)
Aria latest version

This problem is exhibited on Desktop and Laptop

Load Sonar
Load Aria player
Load Steinway classic


Place pedal messages on and off in midi track pointed to Aria/Steinway
Hit Play
Pedal ON messages responded to
Subsequent OFF messages not responded to

Summary
Once triggered always on despite Low Value midi cc message
I can't get the pedals to respond to a midi off message (assumed to be cc#64 value [ for sustain] of 63 or below?)
They do respond to a cc64=127 "on" message.
This applies to Sustain, Sostenuto and Soft

Also, when using the mouse to turn off/on they seem very "finiky" as to where I click on them compared to using the standalone Area player.

Anyone else see this?
Thanks,
Fred

[Jeff Hurchalla]

Hi Fred,
You'll need to use a cc value of 0 for turn off. Yes, sustain pedal is cc64 (sostenuto is cc66 and soft pedal cc67). Hope this helps,
Jeff

[fred Holmes]

Hi Jeff,
DOH!
Thanks, Didn't realize that ANY positive value would turn on the pedal(s)[?] and ONLY a value of Zero(0) would turn it off.

Question: Then is "Half" and "Proportional" pedaling available at other cc values?

Fred

[Jeff Hurchalla]

Yes the other cc values are half pedaled, although it affects only sustain resonance right now. Affecting the main note's decay rate also is one of the things in the works.

[karolsz]

Hi Fred,
You'll need to use a cc value of 0 for turn off. Yes, sustain pedal is cc64 (sostenuto is cc66 and soft pedal cc67). Hope this helps,
Jeff

I've gotta say -- this is almost beyond belief. ... I just bought this piano today, and it has a pretty good sound (though no better than SampleTekk's Black Grand).

But the fact that it does not respond to pedaled CC64 off messages is just an incredible omission. How could it have been put on the market this way?

I do hope this is attended to in the 1.05 version. If not, it will be very little used and I'm not gonna feel great about spending $99 for it.

No offense intended, guys, but GEE WHIZ!

[Haydn]

There has to be a problem with your setup. CC64 has always worked since the first release. Make sure your sustain pedal is sending 127 for on and 0 for off.

Jim

[karolsz]

There has to be a problem with your setup. CC64 has always worked since the first release. Make sure your sustain pedal is sending 127 for on and 0 for off.

Jim

Hi Jim,

No problem with my sustain pedal, which successfully sends both on and off CC64 messages to all my other pianos and other instruments.

Please note what the forum member who started this thread wrote:

Once triggered always on ... I can't get the (Steinway internal) pedals to respond to a midi off message. ... They do respond to a cc64=127 "on" message.

That's the same experience I'm having. The piano responds to a 127 message, but not a 0 when delivered by pedal. It will respond to 0 only when a controller event is sent from my sequencer (Sonar).

[Jeff Hurchalla]

Most likely your sustain pedal is not sending 0 for a pedal up event. The other software pianos are probably interpreting any sustain value less than 64 as a pedal up, which is why they would respond to your pedal. If you're interested you could download midiox ( www.midiox.com) to see what your pedal is sending. I suspect it is not sending any 0 values. If so, I'd view that as a fault of the pedal, although I also think it would be good whenever possible to make the software robust against strange conditions like that. If I can change the sustain to accept non-zero values as 'off' values without breaking any of the normal functioning of the piano, I'll likely do it.

[karolsz]

Most likely your sustain pedal is not sending 0 for a pedal up event. The other software pianos are probably interpreting any sustain value less than 64 as a pedal up, which is why they would respond to your pedal. If you're interested you could download midiox ( www.midiox.com (http://www.midiox.com)) to see what your pedal is sending. I suspect it is not sending any 0 values. If so, I'd view that as a fault of the pedal, although I also think it would be good whenever possible to make the software robust against strange conditions like that. If I can change the sustain to accept non-zero values as 'off' values without breaking any of the normal functioning of the piano, I'll likely do it.

Thanks, Jeff. I'll try this and get back to you. ...

[Macy]

If I can change the sustain to accept non-zero values as 'off' values without breaking any of the normal functioning of the piano, I'll likely do it.I assume you mean adding that as an option only. It works fine the way it is now with pedals that send proportional values and you don't want to mess up the pedal response on pianos that work correctly.

[karolsz]

Most likely your sustain pedal is not sending 0 for a pedal up event. The other software pianos are probably interpreting any sustain value less than 64 as a pedal up, which is why they would respond to your pedal. If you're interested you could download midiox ( www.midiox.com (http://www.midiox.com)) to see what your pedal is sending. I suspect it is not sending any 0 values. If so, I'd view that as a fault of the pedal, although I also think it would be good whenever possible to make the software robust against strange conditions like that. If I can change the sustain to accept non-zero values as 'off' values without breaking any of the normal functioning of the piano, I'll likely do it.

Hi Jeff -- You are quite right on this, and I'm sorry. My M-Audio SP-2 pedal is not sending out 0 as the CC64 off, but rather a bunch of other numbers. Sonar accepts the other numbers as a sustain-off message (which is why I never took much note of it), but I guess the Garritan Steinway doesn't.

Arrrghhh! ... Any suggestions, anyone, for a sus pedal that only sends out 127s and 0s???

[Macy]

If you are using a Mac just change the pedal values with MidiPipe. I don't know what the equivalent is for Windows.

[karolsz]

Hi Jeff -- You are quite right on this, and I'm sorry. My M-Audio SP-2 pedal is not sending out 0 as the CC64 off, but rather a bunch of other numbers. Sonar accepts the other numbers as a sustain-off message (which is why I never took much note of it), but I guess the Garritan Steinway doesn't.

Arrrghhh! ... Any suggestions, anyone, for a sus pedal that only sends out 127s and 0s???

Hi gang, re changing pedal values: I don't have a Mac to run Midipipe. Anyone know of a Windows equivalent?

Thanks.

[Steve Johnson]

Hi gang, re changing pedal values: I don't have a Mac to run Midipipe. Anyone know of a Windows equivalent?

Thanks.

I'm not a Mac user, so I have to plead ignorance on what Midipipe does. However, I did a keyword search on Go.com, and I think the following may be Windows equivalents:

http://www.midiox.com/

http://www.bome.com/products/miditranslator

http://www.nosuch.com/keykit/index.html

Have no idea if any of the above would do what you're looking for, but they might be worth just checking out anyway.

Steve

[Macy]

I'm not a Mac user, so I have to plead ignorance on what Midipipe does. However, I did a keyword search on Go.com, and I think the following may be Windows equivalents:

http://www.midiox.com/

http://www.bome.com/products/miditranslator

http://www.nosuch.com/keykit/index.html

Have no idea if any of the above would do what you're looking for, but they might be worth just checking out anyway.

SteveMidiPipe would allow the OP to translate the pedal values in realtime. For the OP's problem he could simply translate any pedal value less than X (pick a number for his pedal) to 0 and any pedal value greater than Y to 128, and block or pass values between X and Y, depending on whether he wants proportional pedaling or not. He could vary X and Y to adjust the pedal action any way he wants it.

A quick glance at the manual for the miditranslator seems to indicate it could do the same thing, but the interface looks excessively complicated to do such a simple task.

[Steve Johnson]

MidiPipe would allow the OP to translate the pedal values in realtime. For the OP's problem he could simply translate any pedal value less than X (pick a number for his pedal) to 0 and any pedal value greater than Y to 128, and block or pass values between X and Y, depending on whether he wants proportional pedaling or not. He could vary X and Y to adjust the pedal action any way he wants it.

A quick glance at the manual for the miditranslator seems to indicate it could do the same thing, but the interface looks excessively complicated to do such a simple task.

Okay, good to know. It sounds like the best way to go here would be to manually change the values of the pedal events recorded in the sequencer file. I use Cubasis, and when I need to do this I just open up the list view for the piano track, then change the CC64 values to 0 for the pedal-off events on the list. I know it adds some extra work to the production process, but IMHO this is not a major hassle.

Steve