How do I create a divided string group?

[AndreasvanHaren]

I wrote s piece for string orchestra and was wondering how I would record a 1st violin section that I divided in 2 parts. I calculate 12 players in the first violin group, meaning 6 on every group. How do I record this in GPO? Do I need to make 12 different tracks with a single violin player or is there another way to do this?

[bionicbub]

Andreas --

The setup you are looking for depends on several factors, the most important of which is the notation/sequencer package you are using with GPO.

Tracks are usually set up in the notation program (like Finale or Sibelius, etc.) or a sequencer (like SONAR or Cubase, etc.) You can also use GPO's ARIA player (or something like Kontakt) to set up sections like you have described. GPO does not stand by itself but must be used in conjunction with one of these types of programs.

There are some excellent tutorials on how to do this on both this site (do a search for "tutorial") and on the Garritan Web site (Garritan Libraries (http://www.garritan.com/)).

If you buy the GPO4 package, it comes with a manual that explains just about everything as well. But you may be able to find a copy of the manual by itself somewhere. I could share my copy with you, but I'm not sure if that is permitted or not if you do not already own GPO4. Let me check on that, okay?

Best wishes

Arvid

[AndreasvanHaren]

Andreas --

The setup you are looking for depends on several factors, the most important of which is the notation/sequencer package you are using with GPO.

Tracks are usually set up in the notation program (like Finale or Sibelius, etc.) or a sequencer (like SONAR or Cubase, etc.) You can also use GPO's ARIA player (or something like Kontakt) to set up sections like you have described. GPO does not stand by itself but must be used in conjunction with one of these types of programs.

There are some excellent tutorials on how to do this on both this site (do a search for "tutorial") and on the Garritan Web site (Garritan Libraries (http://www.garritan.com/)).

If you buy the GPO4 package, it comes with a manual that explains just about everything as well. But you may be able to find a copy of the manual by itself somewhere. I could share my copy with you, but I'm not sure if that is permitted or not if you do not already own GPO4. Let me check on that, okay?

Best wishes

Arvid

Hi Arvid,
I am using GPO as plugin in Logic 8. For my string orchestra piece, I gave every section a separate track with its own midi channel. The Aria player is working correctly and every track is assigned to the correct instruments. In my score now, the 2nd and violas are divided and I hope to get a realistic sound as possible by really only using half the 2nd and violas on every divided part, how would I set this up? It would e great if I could get a realistic sound as possible. I read the manual that came with GPO but didn't really find a good guide in it. Maybe there are video tutorials for doing this somewhere?

Thanks!
André

[bionicbub]

André --

I know absolutely nothing about Logic 8, but you should be able to just write the two parts on a single staff and mark them "divisi" and, as I understand it, GPO will intelligently split the strings accordingly.

I spent some time trying to find an answer for you, and I cannot locate anything in writing or in video tutorials. I have found the word "divisi" used in many places, but nothing instructive was included about how to do it realistically or how it even works.

We need an expert to help answer your question, because it is beyond my current state of knowledge, and I have never had to consider the question. But I can tell you what I do in my own setup.

I never build any sections that contain more than the fewest number of players that will be needed on each part, meaning that if I have a 2nd violin section that will include divisi writing, and the total number of 2nd violins in the work is 12, then I build two sections of six 2nd violins each. That way, I never have to worry about how to split them. But if I wanted to go for a 7/5 divisi, for example, then I would build a section with 7 and a section with 5. In my notation programs, I can assign both sections of the split to the same staff, and they will both play the same line until they reach a divisi, and then the notes for each part are assigned to each section appropriately in the notation program. In other words, I do all the work in the score, and never build a section larger than its smallest sub-group in an even split (like 6/6 for 12 total players), but a 7/5 split would require two different size groups, and so that's what I create.

Programs like Finale, which I use, have what is called a layering capability, and it is described in the Finale manual like this:

"Each staff in Finale has four transparent layers of music. Each layer can play back over a different MIDI channel and synthesizer patch, and each can have its own dynamics. You can view one layer at a time, or all simultaneously. When you're placing expression marks, you can tell which layer is receiving the mark by the indicator in the lower-left corner of the screen, which identifies the current layer by number. (You can switch from one layer to the other by clicking the layer buttons."

That is how I handle divisis, by using the layers in Finale, and it has nothing to do with GPO except insofar as how I have built the sub-sections, whether as 6/6 or 7/5, I just assign the sub-section to the correct LAYER in the notation program.

I would assume that Logic 8 conforms to the standard ability to assign the sections as I have indicated. If not, then I do not know how to answer your question and you would need a better answer from someone else because I can't find any tutorials or other instructions for this situation.

Perhaps some good savior will come along and read this thread who knows more about Logic 8 who can give you a better answer than mine. I'm sorry I couldn't find any tutorials. I simply have never had to think about that problem because it has never occurred in my experiences with the programs that I use.

I wish you all the best, André, and I hope you can understand my explanation.

Arvid

ADDENDUM: After I wrote the above post, I found on Page 76 of the GPO4 manual this paragraph:

If you want a Horn section, load in the first, second and third ensemble player (Plr) horns to get your
section. A second set of Plr horns will provide the fourth fifth and sixth players. The “overlays” can also be
used to make the section sound even bigger, with greater control over brightness at loud levels. Thus, you
can create your section playing in unison, playing separate parts or playing divisi with unique expression and phrasing from each loaded instrument.

In other words, in my estimation, if you build your sections according to those instructions, you will have individual control over each instrument in each large section, and if you want to split 6/6 in one place and 7/5 in another, you can do so, but you have to build smaller sections to begin with in order to maintain that kind of control over the individual players.

Is that a better answer for you than the one I gave above???

[AndreasvanHaren]

André --

I know absolutely nothing about Logic 8, but you should be able to just write the two parts on a single staff and mark them "divisi" and, as I understand it, GPO will intelligently split the strings accordingly.

I spent some time trying to find an answer for you, and I cannot locate anything in writing or in video tutorials. I have found the word "divisi" used in many places, but nothing instructive was included about how to do it realistically or how it even works.

We need an expert to help answer your question, because it is beyond my current state of knowledge, and I have never had to consider the question. But I can tell you what I do in my own setup.

I never build any sections that contain more than the fewest number of players that will be needed on each part, meaning that if I have a 2nd violin section that will include divisi writing, and the total number of 2nd violins in the work is 12, then I build two sections of six 2nd violins each. That way, I never have to worry about how to split them. But if I wanted to go for a 7/5 divisi, for example, then I would build a section with 7 and a section with 5. In my notation programs, I can assign both sections of the split to the same staff, and they will both play the same line until they reach a divisi, and then the notes for each part are assigned to each section appropriately in the notation program. In other words, I do all the work in the score, and never build a section larger than its smallest sub-group in an even split (like 6/6 for 12 total players), but a 7/5 split would require two different size groups, and so that's what I create.

Programs like Finale, which I use, have what is called a layering capability, and it is described in the Finale manual like this:

"Each staff in Finale has four transparent layers of music. Each layer can play back over a different MIDI channel and synthesizer patch, and each can have its own dynamics. You can view one layer at a time, or all simultaneously. When you're placing expression marks, you can tell which layer is receiving the mark by the indicator in the lower-left corner of the screen, which identifies the current layer by number. (You can switch from one layer to the other by clicking the layer buttons."

That is how I handle divisis, by using the layers in Finale, and it has nothing to do with GPO except insofar as how I have built the sub-sections, whether as 6/6 or 7/5, I just assign the sub-section to the correct LAYER in the notation program.

I would assume that Logic 8 conforms to the standard ability to assign the sections as I have indicated. If not, then I do not know how to answer your question and you would need a better answer from someone else because I can't find any tutorials or other instructions for this situation.

Perhaps some good savior will come along and read this thread who knows more about Logic 8 who can give you a better answer than mine. I'm sorry I couldn't find any tutorials. I simply have never had to think about that problem because it has never occurred in my experiences with the programs that I use.

I wish you all the best, André, and I hope you can understand my explanation.

Arvid

Hi Arvis, thanks for the info and the time that you took for searching for me. What I did this morning in an attempt to get a realistic divdied string part was this:

My 2nd violin group has 12 violins, so I made 12 different tracks and assigned to each track a different midi channel and solo string instrument in GPO. 6 of these tracks I used to record the first division of the 2nd violin part, the other 6 tracks I recorded the 2nd division part in. It was a lot of preparation work to get it right and my powerpc cannot pull all the tracks for the whole piece. It became even heavier for my mac because my violas also are divided and I did the same here as I did with the 2nd violins. They have a total of 10 violas, so 5 plus 5 divided.

I tried to freeze some of the tracks but for some reason I don't understand, I cannot freeze tracks while using the Aria player. There must be a faster way to use the ensemble building system in GPO, but how? Maybe someone with experience with this can help me?

Thanks!

André

[bionicbub]

André --

Just out of curiosity, are you by any chance using a 64-bit operating system???

Logic 8 seems like a very strange program to me if you have to build a section in the manner that you have done.

Arvid

[AndreasvanHaren]

André --

Just out of curiosity, are you by any chance using a 64-bit operating system???

Logic 8 seems like a very strange program to me if you have to build a section in the manner that you have done.

Arvid

No, my powerpc is a 32-bit system as far I know, one of the older models. I build t that way because I don't know really how to do it otherwise. And I found a GPO tutorial on a Garritan wiki page that explained it like this:

http://www.garritan.com/wiki/index.php/GPO_String_Ensemble_Building_Tutorial

there must be a better way though.
André

[bionicbub]

I looked at that tutorial, but I didn't see anything useful in it, and that's why I didn't mention it to you before.

The pre-built sections in GPO4 work wonders for me, but I'm still playing around with them. Just like you, I am going through a stiff learning climb at this time, but it's not GPO4 so much as it is Finale 2011, which is my first upgrade since Finale 2003, and there is a considerable amount of differences from the older to the newer versions. Lots of new toys to play with!

Hope you find some answers to your questions soon. I simply never have had any of those problems you mention and don't know what to tell you. Logic 8 is a total blank in my experience, and I wouldn't have the slightest clue how GPO4 or ARIA work with it.

Best wishes,

Arvid

[robh]

Hi André,

I am on Logic 8 as well, so I might be able to steer you in the right direction.

As you might suspect, you can't really split a string section into divisi without making it sound like 12 + 12, instead of 6 + 6. A trick I have done in the past is to use a blend of section strings with 4 solo strings (plr versions, not solo versions). Use different MIDI channels for the 'solo section' and the section strings so that you can divide them easily.

I've included a link to a Logic song (open the archive first!) to show you what I mean.

http://www.box.net/shared/v8sgtpz2kz

Here's a link to an mp3 so you can hear what I did: http://www.box.net/shared/36up09zmm3

Hope this helps.

Rob

[AndreasvanHaren]

Hi André,

I am on Logic 8 as well, so I might be able to steer you in the right direction.

As you might suspect, you can't really split a string section into divisi without making it sound like 12 + 12, instead of 6 + 6. A trick I have done in the past is to use a blend of section strings with 4 solo strings (plr versions, not solo versions). Use different MIDI channels for the 'solo section' and the section strings so that you can divide them easily.

I've included a link to a Logic song (open the archive first!) to show you what I mean.

http://www.box.net/shared/v8sgtpz2kz

Here's a link to an mp3 so you can hear what I did: http://www.box.net/shared/36up09zmm3

Hope this helps.

Rob

Thanks for your help, Rob. So it still has to be done by using a lot of tracks for every single instrument (or plus a single group). I was hoping that GPO would be able to make some kind of calculation with a midi controlor or something like that. Like for example Arvid wrote in another post:

"I know absolutely nothing about Logic 8, but you should be able to just write the two parts on a single staff and mark them "divisi" and, as I understand it, GPO will intelligently split the strings accordingly."

This is what I am looking for. Do you know a way in Logic to do this?

Thanks!
André

[Hannes_F]

Hi there,

if it is a shorter passage I would simply go with the 12 + 12 strings, each reduced by 3 dB.

[robh]

Thanks for your help, Rob. So it still has to be done by using a lot of tracks for every single instrument (or plus a single group). I was hoping that GPO would be able to make some kind of calculation with a midi controlor or something like that. Like for example Arvid wrote in another post:

"I know absolutely nothing about Logic 8, but you should be able to just write the two parts on a single staff and mark them "divisi" and, as I understand it, GPO will intelligently split the strings accordingly."

This is what I am looking for. Do you know a way in Logic to do this?

Thanks!
André

Well, no. I used only two tracks to accomplish it.
From what you described (especially not being able to freeze GPO tracks), it appears you are loading the GPO instance as a multi output instrument instead of stereo. Multi output instruments cannot be frozen in Logic. Is there a particular reason for wanting to use multi output?

I believe what Arvid was describing was a feature found in the notation software he uses.

Are you playing the string lines from a keyboard, or are you adding notes via the score editor? If you are adding from a score editor (using my Logic song as an example), you can assign the lower notes to MIDI channel 2 which would trigger the solo player instruments.(EDIT) However that would mean the solo player instruments wouldn't play until there was divisi.

What Hannes mentioned makes the task even easier to handle. Everything can be done with one patch loaded using one MIDI channel track.

Rob

[AndreasvanHaren]

Well, no. I used only two tracks to accomplish it.
From what you described (especially not being able to freeze GPO tracks), it appears you are loading the GPO instance as a multi output instrument instead of stereo. Multi output instruments cannot be frozen in Logic. Is there a particular reason for wanting to use multi output?

I believe what Arvid was describing was a feature found in the notation software he uses.

Are you playing the string lines from a keyboard, or are you adding notes via the score editor? If you are adding from a score editor (using my Logic song as an example), you can assign the lower notes to MIDI channel 2 which would trigger the solo player instruments.(EDIT) However that would mean the solo player instruments wouldn't play until there was divisi.

What Hannes mentioned makes the task even easier to handle. Everything can be done with one patch loaded using one MIDI channel track.

Rob

Hi Rob,
I used the multi output because that is what I saw someone else doing in a presentation of GPO, I don't even know what the difference is with the normal stereo. Yesterday I tried it with stereo and I was able to freeze the tracks, so that problem is fixed!

I am adding notes by playing the separate instruments on my keyboard on the different tracks. I checked the file you linked and I think it's a great idea! I never thought about sending different tracks to 1 channel, I am still a very beginner in this. Thanks!

André