Beethoven 3th: GPO versus Live recording...

[AndreasvanHaren]

I am trying to get as close as possible to getting a realistic sound from my music in GPO and recorded the first couple of bars from Beethoven 3th symphony and compared it with a real live orchestra recording. The real orchestra sounds fatter but also, and this is the thing I cannot get in my other orchestral GPO bounces, the real recording seems to have more depth. How do I get this in the GPO bounce?

Here are the 2 examples I am working with, hopefully someone knows what I am trying to reach and know how to get it!

Beethoven: Real orchestra (https://www.box.net/shared/48xfm6n6h4)
Beethoven: GPO orchestra (https://www.box.net/shared/4gg7gaog71)

André

[qccowboy]

the GPO version seems to be lacking a bit in the bass department.

but then, don't forget, you'll NEVER get it to sound exactly like one of those fine recordings by the best orchestras, in the best halls, recorded by the best engineers (even those orchestras don't sound like that without a bit of help from those miracle workers).

don't forget. GPO cost $200.

The live orchestra recording cost $100,000+.

[AndreasvanHaren]

the GPO version seems to be lacking a bit in the bass department.

but then, don't forget, you'll NEVER get it to sound exactly like one of those fine recordings by the best orchestras, in the best halls, recorded by the best engineers (even those orchestras don't sound like that without a bit of help from those miracle workers).

don't forget. GPO cost $200.

The live orchestra recording cost $100,000+.
Still, I am getting very close now! Ver yexciting to try to get that sound. But I am lacking still a way to push the complete sound more into the back. I want to experience it as being an audience in the back of the hall, how do I get this?

[Steve Johnson]

Still, I am getting very close now! Ver yexciting to try to get that sound.

Your GPO realization actually sounds pretty good, although I agree that it's a bit lacking in the bass end of the cellos. I might also be inclined to shave off a bit of the higher-end frequencies in the violins.

By the way, I tried posting an answer to your question about how to equalize an orchestral piece. Unfortunately, it was very early this morning and my brain could only produce a half-baked response. I went back and posted another message that's a little more in-depth (and hopefully more useful than my first attempt). If you haven't seen it, you may want to go back to that thread and have a look.


But I am lacking still a way to push the complete sound more into the back. I want to experience it as being an audience in the back of the hall, how do I get this?

See pages 56 and 57 of the GPO4 manual on how to set depth for your instrument configurations. BTW #2 - this is a new feature with the ARIA player, and I'm looking forward to experimenting with it myself. If it works as advertised, this will be great for designing more realistic sound spaces. As much as I enjoyed previous incarnations of GPO, it did bug me a little that the orchestra would sound like it was lined up against a wall.

Steve

[DPDAN]

notice how everyone is talking about tone quality?

Notice how the GPO version's most dominant note in the first two chords is G,
but the real orchestra is the more logical Eb?

To me, it is more about the balance (voicing) of the chords that is incorrect when comparing,
not equalization.

Dan

[bionicbub]

I don't think it will be ready in time for the tutorial contest, but I am writing a tutorial on this subject in a general way, because, like mixing and other procedures, there is no such thing as a "one-size-fits-all" approach to this topic.

I would also like to recommend the time-honored classic book, "The Guide to MIDI Orchestration" by Paul Gilreath. It is a gold mine.

And qccowboy is spot on -- a good orchestra costs about $100,000 per hour of rehearsal time.

Arvid

[AndreasvanHaren]

notice how everyone is talking about tone quality?

Notice how the GPO version's most dominant note in the first two chords is G,
but the real orchestra is the more logical Eb?

To me, it is more about the balance (voicing) of the chords that is incorrect when comparing,
not equalization.

Dan

Yes, I was surprised when reading and recording Beethoven's score that the strings had a g, but then I saw the flutes on the e flat and realized that they are the one who are playing the tonic. indeed a good lesson here. Thanks!

André

[AndreasvanHaren]

I don't think it will be ready in time for the tutorial contest, but I am writing a tutorial on this subject in a general way, because, like mixing and other procedures, there is no such thing as a "one-size-fits-all" approach to this topic.

I would also like to recommend the time-honored classic book, "The Guide to MIDI Orchestration" by Paul Gilreath. It is a gold mine.

Arvid

That would be great to have your tutorial! Is it going to be written or a video?And I should have a look for this book, sounds like a good investment.

André

[bionicbub]

That would be great to have your tutorial! Is it going to be written or a video?And I should have a look for this book, sounds like a good investment.

André

My tutorial will be text only. I have no capability to produce a video. (Maybe one of these days...?)

The book I mentioned, "The Guide to MIDI Orchestration" by Paul Gilreath is now in the Fourth (4th) Edition. Please look for that edition. Most of my tutorial information will be taken from that book, so if you buy that book, you will not need to read my tutorial, except for the personal information and insights that I have picked up over the years that expand a little bit on Gilreath's instructions. He has specific information for each instrument and instrument groups in the orchestra, but I will not put that into my tutorial, which is more general in nature.

Just one tiny example from his book are the diagrams he has made showing how to properly pan the instruments.

[Hannes_F]

a good orchestra costs about $100,000 per hour of rehearsal time

Arvid, may I ask by which source this information is backed?

You are certainly aware of the national-dependant union orchestra recording session fees, are you?

[L0W]

Yes also the balance between the mezzo stoccato/portato string parts is similarly not right. I think you should try using short bows patch on those parts too.

When you get the instrument patch choices and balance between all the parts right, then it will be much easier to hear if eq is needed anywhere to match the recording. I find the eq in the Aria player works well with GPO.

The biggest impact on overall 'sound' will then probably come from your reverb and how you are using it. What are you using and how have you set it up?

I personally haven't found the Aria player 'stereo stage' tool as useful as it promises to be, so not sure if using it will bring you closer to the recording.

But for the most part I think you are making great progress - keep us posted with updates!

[L0W]

To get the 'back of the hall' sound mentioned in an earlier post you have to use and set up reverb in an appropriate way. Altiverb has good facilities for this and DPDan has done a bunch of very informative tutorials on using GPO in Altiverb.

The GPO samples were all recorded 'close miced'. Just adding reverb to them means you still get a close mic'ed sound + a big hall reverb, like maybe u are sitting in with the orchestra.

Having said all that, I think your render sounds like you already know this???

[fabiolcati]

close miced?

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRJgKbg38W7iy0ptkh8fVLUhoVmipWKO rfdMqdV1LJr4fJca-MA

Sorry for the joke.
This is one of the most interesting thread to follow. Thanks to Andreas' questions I'm learning a lot about using GPO in the real world. Greetings

[Steve Johnson]

To get the 'back of the hall' sound mentioned in an earlier post you have to use and set up reverb in an appropriate way. Altiverb has good facilities for this and DPDan has done a bunch of very informative tutorials on using GPO in Altiverb.

The GPO samples were all recorded 'close miced'. Just adding reverb to them means you still get a close mic'ed sound + a big hall reverb, like maybe u are sitting in with the orchestra.

Having said all that, I think your render sounds like you already know this???

Sorry, but I have to disagree with your assessment. The impression of distance in the sound space depends on the mix of the instrument's dry and reverb sends. What might be throwing us for a loop (so to speak) here is that earlier versions of GPO had separate dry/wet slider controls. However, in the ARIA player it appears that the dry send is now controlled by the channel volume slider on the mixer panel.

For example, I just fired up ARIA and loaded the flute vibrato patch to play around with the different settings. I set its channel volume to -25dB, activated the Ambience Cathedral preset, then turned up the reverb send to 75%. I got a good impression of distance, definitely not like I was sitting in with the orchestra. Also, I found that the stereo stage works quite well. When I tried going from the flute patch's default depth setting of 30% up to 100% I could definitely hear a difference in sound. That difference is subtle, yes, but I think a nice little extra element of realism.

With all due respect to Altiverb, I believe that the Ambience reverb in GPO4 gives us plenty of flexibility in how we design our sound space, and certainly way ahead of what we had in previous versions of GPO. It's simply a matter of learning how the instrument and reverb parameters interact, then finding the "sweet spot" among those parameters for the sound you're after. By the way, when GPO dropped Ambience in its KP2 version, I was disappointed because the KP2 reverb simply did not have the number of parameter adjustments that were available in the first version of GPO. That's why I was thrilled to see that Ambience was being brought back with GPO4. Pages 58-61 in the GPO4 manual discuss the Ambience parameters you can adjust, so this is very much worth paying attention to.

Steve

[DPDAN]

Sorry, but I have to disagree with your assessment. The impression of distance in the sound space depends on the mix of the instrument's dry and reverb sends.

Steve

Hi Steve, sorry, but I have to disagree with your assessment. (not trying to be a smarty pants) :hp:
ARIA's reverb does not come close, nor does anything on the market for creating completely believable reverb. In the old days, an aux send was the most common way to route dry signal to a reverb unit. Then the reverb sound was "ADDED" to the dry sound. This procedure is completely acceptable and is still the most popular way to use reverb in a contemporary mix. Mixing classical music is completely different and when done properly, nobody should ever ADD reverb to a dry signal to try to insinuate a real recording. Regardless of how much dry/wet sound you set up in the mixer with the aux sends, the dry sound can still be heard poking it's dry little head through the reverb, giving away that the mix was done poorly and typically by someone without enough knowledge. I hear it all the time.

Unless you get Altiverb or try it somewhere, my words will only come across as opinionated bull. Altiverb uses a 3D GUI of a stage and allows the user to place instruments precisely anywhere on the stage, and of course it also provides numerous IR choices of the same room. While the user is moving the sound around on the GUI stage, Altiverb automatically alters the dry sound that is routed to Altiverb so that it is "colored" preventing it from being heard separately. This is achieved since Altiverb automatically turns off "Direct",... and the mix knob (dry/wet) is always set to full on wet (clockwise).

Until one has used Altiverb, it is difficult for one to comprehend using the dry/wet knob set fully on and not having washed out sound. While Altiverb is a computer based DAW plugin, it's use should not be confused with using samples. It will be nearly impossible to create realistic music with samples for quite some time, but Altiverb is completely realistic, especially when mixing real musicians.

I am also aware of MIR by VSL, but that is not a reverb plugin that is useable on any sound...
only samples in VSL's library. Personally, I think they really messed up that decision.

Kevin (LOW) was right.
Good topic discussion here.
Dan

[Steve Johnson]

Hi Steve, sorry, but I have to disagree with your assessment. (not trying to be a smarty pants) :hp:
ARIA's reverb does not come close, nor does anything on the market for creating completely believable reverb. In the old days, an aux send was the most common way to route dry signal to a reverb unit. Then the reverb sound was "ADDED" to the dry sound. This procedure is completely acceptable and is still the most popular way to use reverb in a contemporary mix. Mixing classical music is completely different and when done properly, nobody should ever ADD reverb to a dry signal to try to insinuate a real recording. Regardless of how much dry/wet sound you set up in the mixer with the aux sends, the dry sound can still be heard poking it's dry little head through the reverb, giving away that the mix was done poorly and typically by someone without enough knowledge. I hear it all the time.

Unless you get Altiverb or try it somewhere, my words will only come across as opinionated bull. Altiverb uses a 3D GUI of a stage and allows the user to place instruments precisely anywhere on the stage, and of course it also provides numerous IR choices of the same room. While the user is moving the sound around on the GUI stage, Altiverb automatically alters the dry sound that is routed to Altiverb so that it is "colored" preventing it from being heard separately. This is achieved since Altiverb automatically turns off "Direct",... and the mix knob (dry/wet) is always set to full on wet (clockwise).

Until one has used Altiverb, it is difficult for one to comprehend using the dry/wet knob set fully on and not having washed out sound.

Kevin (LOW) was right.
Good topic discussion here.
Dan

Fair enough, and never having used Altiverb I will plead guilty to "shooting from the lip" on this one. However, I do appreciate the importance of good, realistic reverb to classical music. Unfortunately Altiverb comes with a steep price tag (the best price I could find online was about $500. YIKES!!!), so being on a tight budget these days plus the holidays coming up, I guess I'll just have to make do with Ambience for the foreseeable future.

Steve

[DPDAN]

Hi Steve, thanks for being such a good sport.
You're right Altiverb is a little pricey, but may I highly suggest it.




The biggest impact on overall 'sound' will then probably come from your reverb and how you are using it. What are you using and how have you set it up?

That's the truth :hp:

Have a great Thanksgiving !!!!
Dan

[L0W]

Kevin (LOW) was right.

Dan

Yes except my mum called me Laurence - but Kevin or even Tracey is ok, if that's what your prefer?!?!

Sure you can good results from GPO Ambience Steve. But as ARIA is doing this via an aux send its still mixing unprocessed 'dry' (close mic'ed) signal with the processed reverb signal (even at 100% setting). AS a result, there's no airspace attenuation of the 'direct' signal that you would get sitting at the back of a concert hall (or get in Altiverb).

I think there are some 'classic' reverb debates in this forum's archives, shall I see if I can dig them out and reopen some old wounds?

[DPDAN]

Laurence, you are right again, why did I think you were Kevin?

I hate getting old :hp:
Dan

[Steve Johnson]

Yes except my mum called me Laurence - but Kevin or even Tracey is ok, if that's what your prefer?!?!

Sure you can good results from GPO Ambience Steve. But as ARIA is doing this via an aux send its still mixing unprocessed 'dry' (close mic'ed) signal with the processed reverb signal (even at 100% setting). AS a result, there's no airspace attenuation of the 'direct' signal that you would get sitting at the back of a concert hall (or get in Altiverb).

I think there are some 'classic' reverb debates in this forum's archives, shall I see if I can dig them out and reopen some old wounds?

Actually, I have seen some of those debates, and it does seem to be a "messy" topic. But we are among friends here, yes? :)

Okay, so Dan kind of lit a fire under me about Altiverb, and I sent an e-mail to Audio Ease about getting a version I could demo. They were very helpful with that, and while I won't be able to actually purchase Altiverb until after the holidays, at least I have something I can try out first.

As nice as Ambience may be, I understand why convolution reverb is the better way to go. My only hope on this subject is that the next version of GPO uses something like Altiverb integrated into its sample player (I assume ARIA?) so that we don't have to buy a separate reverb program from elsewhere.

Steve

[kanazo]

The most difficult in realizing a "live" simulation IMO is that..a real performance is dynamic, there is always something changing, whether be volume, pitch, phrasing..etc.
The other point is the entry of violins in the 7th bar..it is difficult to make it sound not too intrusive, but in a real performance usually only accented or sforzando notes of strings have the attack, most other articulations, strings sound like "creeping in" from ppp