Can I imitate mic position in GPO 4?

[AndreasvanHaren]

I am looking (again) in depth creating in a orchestral mix and know that this appears because of natural mic position in a room. What I understand is that the the more reverb and less volume an instrument gets, the farther away is sounds and vica versa. Also I read the advice to use different kind of reverbs for the instrument groups when working with orchestra: For the strings which are close by the listener, use a small room; for the woodwinds which are 1 step further away, use hall reverb, and for the background instruments like brass and percussion, use cathedral reverb.

Is there anything else that can be used to imitate mic position? Or maybe is there a totaly different approach possible in GPO 4?

[fabiolcati]

Hi Andreas

Try toggling with "Stereo Stage" control in the Aria player.

Tjah

[AndreasvanHaren]

Hi Andreas

Try toggling with "Stereo Stage" control in the Aria player.

Tjah

Hi,
I tried it and don't like this option because it deforms the sound. The strings for example really sound weird when this option is on.

[Steve Johnson]

Hi,
I tried it and don't like this option because it deforms the sound. The strings for example really sound weird when this option is on.

I'm using the Ambience Cathedral preset for my virtual orchestra, and I really haven't noticed that problem. Are you running into it only with the solo strings, or with the section strings as well? If you could post a brief example with and without the Stereo Stage option enabled, I'd like to hear it. Perhaps I'd be able to figure out what's going on.

Steve

[AndreasvanHaren]

I'm using the Ambience Cathedral preset for my virtual orchestra, and I really haven't noticed that problem. Are you running into it only with the solo strings, or with the section strings as well? If you could post a brief example with and without the Stereo Stage option enabled, I'd like to hear it. Perhaps I'd be able to figure out what's going on.

Steve

Hi Steve,
I tried it with the normal string section, and noticed that the sound becomes darker. I read in the manual that it does some stereo placing in the field, but isn't that what the panning already does?

I still don't understand fully what the Stereo Field option does with the sound. If it really does a back/front placement, does it do this by finding a balance between volume/reverb? Because those 2 elements are having an impact on the feeling of depth, as far as I understand it.
And if this is the case, is the Stereo Field option supposed to be used in combination with the reverbs?

Are you using the same reverb setting for the whole orchestra in your piece? And are the default settings for the Stereo Field for every instrument already correct?

André

[AndreasvanHaren]

I tried it again with the stereo field option in the Aria player. I noticed a little different in some solo instruments that really appear more in front when I put the knob on 0 and farther away when turning towards 100%. But the moment I use a little reverb effect, this depth effect is gone, also when panned anywhere else than in the middle, there is hardly any different in depth. I didn't hear any different at all when using the string sections.

For now, I will try to get the depth effect by playing around with the reverb and keep the stereo field option off.

André

[Steve Johnson]

Hi Steve,
I tried it with the normal string section, and noticed that the sound becomes darker. I read in the manual that it does some stereo placing in the field, but isn't that what the panning already does?

No, panning addresses only left-to-right placement of the "dry" sound. Stereo Stage addresses width in combination with depth (front-to-back) and height (floor-to-ceiling).


I still don't understand fully what the Stereo Field option does with the sound. If it really does a back/front placement, does it do this by finding a balance between volume/reverb? Because those 2 elements are having an impact on the feeling of depth, as far as I understand it.

Balancing volume and reverb cannot by itself create a feeling of depth. Here's what the GPO4 manual says about what Stereo Stage does (page 56):

"When Stereo Stage is turned on it adds calculations that simulate the arrival times from the position of the instrumental sound source to a pair of virtual stereo microphones plus the first reflections from side walls, rear walls, and ceiling. This can create a more three dimensional image for positioning instruments on the stereo stage, both left to right and front to back, especially for monaural instruments (e.g. solo instruments that lack recorded stereo information.)"


And if this is the case, is the Stereo Field option supposed to be used in combination with the reverbs?

Yes, Stereo Stage must be used with reverb. Remember that the combination of reverb and Stereo Stage is intended to create a three-dimensional sound space. Without reverb you're not giving the Stereo Stage components anywhere to "go", and if that's what you were trying, I can understand why you were getting odd-sounding results.

By the way, I noticed in your latest post that you said you're using only a little reverb. Please bear in mind that because Stereo Stage responds according to reverb levels, it stands to reason that lower reverb settings would result in little or no noticeable Stereo Stage effect. Personally I prefer the feeling of sitting in a concert hall about midway between the stage and the back wall, so I have the effects sends for all of my virtual orchestra instruments set to 100%. I realize this may be different from what you prefer, but in any case I believe a reverb send of at least 50% would be needed to get a decent result from applying the Stereo Stage element.


Are you using the same reverb setting for the whole orchestra in your piece? And are the default settings for the Stereo Field for every instrument already correct?

Yes to the first question, no to the second. Actually, I should mention that although I'm using the same reverb preset for my entire virtual orchestra, I have made adjustments to some of the Ambience reverb parameters in ARIA's Effects panel. I have found the Decay, Predelay, Width, and Level parameters particularly useful for tailoring the reverb to what I believe sounds best in terms of where the various ensembles are positioned.

As to Stereo Stage, I found that the default settings weren't all that useful, so I had to change them. Sorry to end with a "teaser" here, but I'm in the process of rendering my symphony-in-progress with GPO4. As soon as I'm done I'll upload the new audio file to my Virtual Concert Hall. I'll also include links to pages that provide all the technical details, including an instrument configuration list that will show the Stereo Stage and reverb settings I'm using. Hopefully there might be some useful information for you.

Steve

[Harsmith]

Hi Andre

Have you tried sending to the reverb - pre-fader rather than post-fader via your bus?

So, for example, select an instrument on a channel. Increase thereverb send via the bus control as normal,
but select pre-fader, rather than -post. The bus control then gets coloured green, I think, rather than blue.

You can then conrol 'depth' using the channel fader.

For example, When the instrument fader is completely down all you will
hear is the sound totally coming from the reverb. This is your maximum 'distance'. As you increase the channel fader you introduce more 'Direct' sound which gives an illision of bringing the sound forward to some degree. You can also use pan to place the instuments as usual.

You then have to use midi expression (controller 11) to makes things louder or softer, rather than volume (controller 7). Controller 7 will move the channel faders in logic, and upset any faders you have set for depth.

You could also experiment by sending your prefade reverb from your group faders, and
use these to control the depth of entire sections, rather than individual instruments.

Give it a go and see if it gets you nearer the sound you are after.


Best
Ian

[swinkler]

No, panning addresses only left-to-right placement of the "dry" sound. Stereo Stage addresses width in combination with depth (front-to-back) and height (floor-to-ceiling).



Balancing volume and reverb cannot by itself create a feeling of depth. Here's what the GPO4 manual says about what Stereo Stage does (page 56):

"When Stereo Stage is turned on it adds calculations that simulate the arrival times from the position of the instrumental sound source to a pair of virtual stereo microphones plus the first reflections from side walls, rear walls, and ceiling. This can create a more three dimensional image for positioning instruments on the stereo stage, both left to right and front to back, especially for monaural instruments (e.g. solo instruments that lack recorded stereo information.)"



Yes, Stereo Stage must be used with reverb. Remember that the combination of reverb and Stereo Stage is intended to create a three-dimensional sound space. Without reverb you're not giving the Stereo Stage components anywhere to "go", and if that's what you were trying, I can understand why you were getting odd-sounding results.

By the way, I noticed in your latest post that you said you're using only a little reverb. Please bear in mind that because Stereo Stage responds according to reverb levels, it stands to reason that lower reverb settings would result in little or no noticeable Stereo Stage effect. Personally I prefer the feeling of sitting in a concert hall about midway between the stage and the back wall, so I have the effects sends for all of my virtual orchestra instruments set to 100%. I realize this may be different from what you prefer, but in any case I believe a reverb send of at least 50% would be needed to get a decent result from applying the Stereo Stage element.



Yes to the first question, no to the second. Actually, I should mention that although I'm using the same reverb preset for my entire virtual orchestra, I have made adjustments to some of the Ambience reverb parameters in ARIA's Effects panel. I have found the Decay, Predelay, Width, and Level parameters particularly useful for tailoring the reverb to what I believe sounds best in terms of where the various ensembles are positioned.

As to Stereo Stage, I found that the default settings weren't all that useful, so I had to change them. Sorry to end with a "teaser" here, but I'm in the process of rendering my symphony-in-progress with GPO4. As soon as I'm done I'll upload the new audio file to my Virtual Concert Hall. I'll also include links to pages that provide all the technical details, including an instrument configuration list that will show the Stereo Stage and reverb settings I'm using. Hopefully there might be some useful information for you.

Steve

Aha! So are you saying you have to use the effects in the Aria player for the stage positioning to work? I guess that makes sense alright but I wouldn't have made that connection.

Now Harsmith's solution negates the need to use the stage position function altogether. That might also work better for someone like me who has a less powerful computer and can't work totally in the midi realm. I have to end up bouncing tracks to audio and apply affects there. So as I understand if I bounce dry tracks and try to use the stage positioning, it's probably just going to result in a strange sound.

[Steve Johnson]

Aha! So are you saying you have to use the effects in the Aria player for the stage positioning to work? I guess that makes sense alright but I wouldn't have made that connection.

Now Harsmith's solution negates the need to use the stage position function altogether. That might also work better for someone like me who has a less powerful computer and can't work totally in the midi realm. I have to end up bouncing tracks to audio and apply affects there. So as I understand if I bounce dry tracks and try to use the stage positioning, it's probably just going to result in a strange sound.

Yes, I can see how the connection between Stereo Stage and Ambience would be easy to miss. The GPO4 manual should've said something about that, but even the best documentation is bound to leave out one or two details we have to discover for ourselves. Hey, but that's one of the great things about this forum -- the ability to help each other out with this kind of stuff.

Regarding Harsmith's solution, his reference to pre-fader vs. post-fader leads me to believe that he may be talking about reverb coming from an external source (DAW, reverb plug-in, etc.) Unless I'm missing something, ARIA does not give us that option, so the sends to Ambience are all post-fader. If I'm wrong, I'd like to know how I can switch Ambience to pre-fader sends, then I can experiment and see what results I get.

If I'm correct about Harsmith's premise, then Stereo Stage would do you no good if you're using a reverb program that is external to ARIA. Think integration here -- Ambience is integrated into ARIA, and Stereo Stage adds an extra "dimension" to Ambience. By the way, I believe that Stereo Stage attempts to approximate convolution reverb. For my money it seems to work pretty well, although other opinions state that it falls short of what a true CR program can do. By reputation Altiverb seems to be the best CR program out there, and all good intentions with Ambience/Stereo Stage aside, it may turn out to be the most effective way of emulating the depth element of instrument placement in a virtual sound environment.

Steve

[swinkler]

Yes, I can see how the connection between Stereo Stage and Ambience would be easy to miss. The GPO4 manual should've said something about that, but even the best documentation is bound to leave out one or two details we have to discover for ourselves. Hey, but that's one of the great things about this forum -- the ability to help each other out with this kind of stuff.

Regarding Harsmith's solution, his reference to pre-fader vs. post-fader leads me to believe that he may be talking about reverb coming from an external source (DAW, reverb plug-in, etc.) Unless I'm missing something, ARIA does not give us that option, so the sends to Ambience are all post-fader. If I'm wrong, I'd like to know how I can switch Ambience to pre-fader sends, then I can experiment and see what results I get.

If I'm correct about Harsmith's premise, then Stereo Stage would do you no good if you're using a reverb program that is external to ARIA. Think integration here -- Ambience is integrated into ARIA, and Stereo Stage adds an extra "dimension" to Ambience. By the way, I believe that Stereo Stage attempts to approximate convolution reverb. For my money it seems to work pretty well, although other opinions state that it falls short of what a true CR program can do. By reputation Altiverb seems to be the best CR program out there, and all good intentions with Ambience/Stereo Stage aside, it may turn out to be the most effective way of emulating the depth element of instrument placement in a virtual sound environment.

Steve

I just did a little test of both methods. I'm working on a rendering of an orchestral piece but focused on the trombones and tuba. Both methods seemed to achieve the desired results however there seemed to be pros and cons for each.

Aria Ambience/Stage Position seemed more controllable. It seemed like it wouldn't build up into a huge mass of sound with an orchestral tutti section. The reverb itself isn't quite as dense sounding however.

Then the converse seemed to be true with using pre-fader and a convolution reverb. I suppose the control would come with automating the faders though. My machine was choking so badly though the fader movements wouldn't take affect for several seconds.

So while I think I'd get a more unified controlled sound with the first method I think my machine limitations are going to force me to use Harsmith's method.

[Steve Johnson]

I just did a little test of both methods. I'm working on a rendering of an orchestral piece but focused on the trombones and tuba. Both methods seemed to achieve the desired results however there seemed to be pros and cons for each.

Aria Ambience/Stage Position seemed more controllable. It seemed like it wouldn't build up into a huge mass of sound with an orchestral tutti section. The reverb itself isn't quite as dense sounding however.

Then the converse seemed to be true with using pre-fader and a convolution reverb. I suppose the control would come with automating the faders though. My machine was choking so badly though the fader movements wouldn't take affect for several seconds.

So while I think I'd get a more unified controlled sound with the first method I think my machine limitations are going to force me to use Harsmith's method.

I downloaded a demo version of Altiverb, but I haven't road-tested it yet. When I do, I'll be interested to see if my 4 GB of RAM will be sufficient to handle everything. By the way, which convolution reverb program are you using?

Steve

[swinkler]

I downloaded a demo version of Altiverb, but I haven't road-tested it yet. When I do, I'll be interested to see if my 4 GB of RAM will be sufficient to handle everything. By the way, which convolution reverb program are you using?

Steve

The freebie that comes with Reaper (ReaVerb). There are probably better ones out there like SIR2 and LiquidSonic's product because they do True Stereo convolution. You can't place the players in a specific part of the stage like Altiverb though. EastWest has a product called spaces that does some virtual placement too and the cost is much less than Altiverb.

[Steve Johnson]

The freebie that comes with Reaper (ReaVerb). There are probably better ones out there like SIR2 and LiquidSonic's product because they do True Stereo convolution. You can't place the players in a specific part of the stage like Altiverb though. EastWest has a product called spaces that does some virtual placement too and the cost is much less than Altiverb.

I'll have to look into the EastWest product and see if they have a demo version I can try. The only thing that kinda scares me about Altiverb is the $500-$600 price tag. If spaces offers similar quality at a lower price, I'll probably end up going with that instead of Altiverb.

Thanks, Steve!

Steve

[DPDAN]

Altiverb is worth a hundred times what it costs...

http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/showthread.php/68209-Altiverb-tutorials

Dan

[Steve Johnson]

Altiverb is worth a hundred times what it costs...

http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/showthread.php/68209-Altiverb-tutorials

Dan

Oh Dan, you Altiverb man, you! :D I'll test-drive Altiverb first, then spaces just for comparison. If spaces doesn't come dang close in terms of features, quality, ease of use, etc. I won't choose it over Altiverb just to save a couple hundred bucks. My budget isn't that challenged, it's just a matter of seeing for myself what yields the most bang for the buck.

By the way, thanks so much for giving me the link to your Altiverb tutorials. I'm downloading the zipfile as we speak, and I'll snag the group routing tute as well. I'll study everything carefully before I install the Altiverb demo. Since I have a 15-day limit with that, I don't want to see the clock run out while I'm still on the learning curve. Hopefully (and I'm sure they will) your tutes will prevent that from happening.

Thanks again!

Steve

[John Newell]

I'm working slowly, because of the interruptions of my day job (done in 142 days). Steve, I've learned a lot from your posts on Stereo Stage and Ambience. In putting together the orchestra, I assume that you want to set Send at 100% for all instruments. If not, why not?

Also, for Stereo Stage we have to assume that the "microphone" is placed somewhere specific in the space. I like the Concert Hall 2 setting, but that doesn't necessarily mean that Violins I and Vcs are set at 0% Stereo Stage, I wouldn't think? That would mean the "mike" is right up on stage, as I understand what I've read so far. I can see putting the instruments at the back of the stage at 100%. I was thinking of setting the most forward instruments at, say, 15% or 20% (i.e. the first string desks), and gradually increase the setting for string players, then winds, etc.

Any comments welcome!

John