Aria instances question

[AndreasvanHaren]

I was wondering: What is heavier on the system; 1 Aria instance that has 16 instruments loaded, or 16 Aria instances that have 1 singe instrument loaded?

I ask this because I feel frustrated with having too little control over my instruments that are loaded in 1 instance and would rather have them on single instances, but I am working on a powerpc mac and am not sure if it will pull about 26 Aria instances that have 1 instrument each.

[Steve Johnson]

I was wondering: What is heavier on the system; 1 Aria instance that has 16 instruments loaded, or 16 Aria instances that have 1 singe instrument loaded?

I ask this because I feel frustrated with having too little control over my instruments that are loaded in 1 instance and would rather have them on single instances, but I am working on a powerpc mac and am not sure if it will pull about 26 Aria instances that have 1 instrument each.

In terms of CPU load, I think it would be six of one, half a dozen of the other. In terms of RAM, it looks like each instance takes about 40 MB, so 16 instances would use about 640 MB. If your computer has sufficient memory available, that shouldn't be a problem. However, running so many instances of ARIA could make things more complicated than they need to be. Two things here:

1. With ARIA we have the choice of the ARIA Player and ARIA Player Multi. The difference between the two is that ARIA Player Multi sends on 16 separate channels, while the other sends all 16 instrument slots over only one channel. You should use the ARIA Player Multi for ensembles.

2. The only reasons for using mutiple instances of ARIA that I can find are: A. Your instrument requirements for a piece exceed the 16 slots available in just one instance, and/or B. You want to apply different types/parameters of Ambience reverb to the different instrument groups in your ensembles.

If you let me know what it is you're trying to do, maybe I can help you figure out how to streamline your instrument configurations without having to run so many instances of ARIA.

Steve

[AndreasvanHaren]

In terms of CPU load, I think it would be six of one, half a dozen of the other. In terms of RAM, it looks like each instance takes about 40 MB, so 16 instances would use about 640 MB. If your computer has sufficient memory available, that shouldn't be a problem. However, running so many instances of ARIA could make things more complicated than they need to be. Two things here:

1. With ARIA we have the choice of the ARIA Player and ARIA Player Multi. The difference between the two is that ARIA Player Multi sends on 16 separate channels, while the other sends all 16 instrument slots over only one channel. You should use the ARIA Player Multi for ensembles.

2. The only reasons for using mutiple instances of ARIA that I can find are: A. Your instrument requirements for a piece exceed the 16 slots available in just one instance, and/or B. You want to apply different types/parameters of Ambience reverb to the different instrument groups in your ensembles.

If you let me know what it is you're trying to do, maybe I can help you figure out how to streamline your instrument configurations without having to run so many instances of ARIA.

Steve

Hi Steve,
What I would like to have is a setup in which I can give every instrument their own panning and reverb amount. I can do this now with the template I have almost finished, but I don't know yet if it will run smoothly on my system. I have 25 instances of Aria with in every player 1 instrument.

Every instrument is send in Logic to an aux with a reverb (some have Hall, some have Cathedral) and every instrument has an EQ insert.

[Steve Johnson]

Hi Steve,
What I would like to have is a setup in which I can give every instrument their own panning and reverb amount. I can do this now with the template I have almost finished, but I don't know yet if it will run smoothly on my system. I have 25 instances of Aria with in every player 1 instrument.

Every instrument is send in Logic to an aux with a reverb (some have Hall, some have Cathedral) and every instrument has an EQ insert.

Okay, I think I see what you're after. I also think you may still be trying to run more instances of ARIA than you need to. Unfortunately, this is where I'd have to be in front of your computer to be much help. Since you live in Sweden that's not going to happen, although it would be a nice excuse to visit Sweden! :) (Ah time and money, two things I don't have enough of. :()

Steve

[AndreasvanHaren]

Just now I am adding my 64th Aria player... and my mac tells me that it is out of memory. I didn't even record anything yet! So this is not going to work. I will have to find another way to get what I try to do. Probably I will have to put more instruments into 1 player what really give me less control over them.

[Peter Jeffrey Gale]

Andreas

You certainly shouldn't need so many instances of Aria to get the control you require.

Are using the multi channel output facilty in Aria or are you returning the output from each and every instrument to the same stereo output channel, and so the same track in Logic?

That's the only thing I can see would explain your issue.

[Steve Johnson]

Just now I am adding my 64th Aria player... and my mac tells me that it is out of memory. I didn't even record anything yet! So this is not going to work. I will have to find another way to get what I try to do. Probably I will have to put more instruments into 1 player what really give me less control over them.

If you PM me with your e-mail address, there's a PDF I'd like to send you. It's a document that details the configuration setup for my virtual orchestra with GPO4, and I believe it might give you some ideas about how to approach what you're trying to do.

By the way, Peter is right, and that was the point I was trying to make in my first reply -- you must use the ARIA Player Multi for ensembles. If you're not, then all instruments get shoved through just one channel and of course you'll have extremely limited control over your instruments.

Steve

[AndreasvanHaren]

Andreas

You certainly shouldn't need so many instances of Aria to get the control you require.

Are using the multi channel output facilty in Aria or are you returning the output from each and every instrument to the same stereo output channel, and so the same track in Logic?

That's the only thing I can see would explain your issue.

What I did was loading a normal Stereo Aria Player, and loaded in the 1st channel inside the Aria Player my instrument. In Logic, this is routed to the Stereo Out. I did this with my whole Orchestra template and have 75 Aria Players instances loaded now. No effects, or any other inserts on the tracks. Only dry sounds. Logic isn't giving me an out of memory warning but i didn't start recording anything yet...

Now I have a different pan for every instrument, what is what I wanted. Only on the Stereo Out in Logic, I put a simple reverb. Like I did with an other project before, I will put more special reverbs on the audio bounces after finishing my midi recording.

Is there a better way to set up this template? One that would give me the same results but that would not push my processor too much?

[AndreasvanHaren]

If you PM me with your e-mail address, there's a PDF I'd like to send you. It's a document that details the configuration setup for my virtual orchestra with GPO4, and I believe it might give you some ideas about how to approach what you're trying to do.

By the way, Peter is right, and that was the point I was trying to make in my first reply -- you must use the ARIA Player Multi for ensembles. If you're not, then all instruments get shoved through just one channel and of course you'll have extremely limited control over your instruments.

Steve


Thanks Steve,
my address is andrevanharen@gmail.com

I remember I used the multi option for a while but run into trouble that I don't remember. I will try it again and maybe your setup will help me as well.

Maybe another problem is also that I am not able to turn off all the reverb in the Aria player because I cannot turn of the ambiance button with my mouse, so all of the instances are running the reverb. I did turn them down to 0 though but I don't know if it still is using my processor.

Andé

[Steve Johnson]

Thanks Steve,
my address is andrevanharen@gmail.com

I remember I used the multi option for a while but run into trouble that I don't remember. I will try it again and maybe your setup will help me as well.

Maybe another problem is also that I am not able to turn off all the reverb in the Aria player because I cannot turn of the ambiance button with my mouse, so all of the instances are running the reverb. I did turn them down to 0 though but I don't know if it still is using my processor.

Andé

Yes, I remember that you were having trouble with not being able to turn off Ambience. If you have the effects send knob set to 0 in the ARIA mixer panel, then even though Ambience is on it should not be putting any load on your processor.

I'll e-mail my PDF to you tomorrow night, and hopefully it might help you.

Steve

[John Newell]

Hi guys, This thread begins to address my situation. I am just setting up an orchestra for the first time. I haven't found any good advice on doing this in the most efficient manner. I'm using Aria Ensemble function for all Vl 1, Vl 2, Vla, Vc, CB (one instance for each section - trying John Melcher's ensembles for string divisi from another thread, to start with). I have 5 instances of Aria. Now for the winds, brass, etc. Is it best to, say, put all the winds in an instance (3 fls, 3 ob, etc), all the brass in another instance (4, 3, 3, tuba), etc? Everything goes into Digital Performer. Am I losing control with only 8 or 9 instances of Aria for the whole orchestra? I want to try the Aria Ambience and stereo stage effects.

Thanks, John Newell

[Steve Johnson]

Hi guys, This thread begins to address my situation. I am just setting up an orchestra for the first time. I haven't found any good advice on doing this in the most efficient manner. I'm using Aria Ensemble function for all Vl 1, Vl 2, Vla, Vc, CB (one instance for each section - trying John Melcher's ensembles for string divisi from another thread, to start with). I have 5 instances of Aria. Now for the winds, brass, etc. Is it best to, say, put all the winds in an instance (3 fls, 3 ob, etc), all the brass in another instance (4, 3, 3, tuba), etc? Everything goes into Digital Performer. Am I losing control with only 8 or 9 instances of Aria for the whole orchestra? I want to try the Aria Ambience and stereo stage effects.

Thanks, John Newell

I think I may be able to help you out with this. Unfortunately I don't have enough time at the moment post a proper response. I will do so over the weekend, so keep an eye out here.

Steve

[Steve Johnson]

Hi John,

To answer your questions, I'd like to start by discussing Ambience a little bit.

Ambience gives you several ways in which you can control the reverb and tailor it to suit your sound preferences. The most basic is up front in the ARIA mixer panel, where you can set all 16 MIDI channels to different send levels for each instrument you have loaded. However, there is a deeper level in the Effects panel, where you can change the default settings for the various Ambience preset parameters. I have assembled a virtual orchestra with GPO4, so the following is based on my experience with this. Hopefully it will give you some guidance for what you'd like to do:

There are three reverb parameters that I have found particularly useful for adjusting in Ambience. They are decay, predelay and width.

Decay: Controls the amount of time it takes for the reverberant sound to die away. I'm using the Ambience Cathedral preset, and I reduced the decay to “tone it down” and bring the decay time more in line with a large resonant concert hall.

Predelay: Sets the lag time between the “dry” sound and when the reverberant sound kicks in. The maximum setting is 500 milliseconds. While this may be an interesting effect, it is completely unrealistic for emulating a concert hall. Lower settings that range from 0 to approximately 100 ms can, however, be useful to create a feeling of different front-to-back positions with the various instrument groups. For the front instruments (first section violins, cellos, and basses) I set the predelay to 97 ms. I then used progressively lower predelay settings with the other instrument groups, ending with a predelay of 0 for the woodwinds, brass, and timpani. My personal preference is to have a sense of some distance from the stage. Higher predelay settings would have the effect of bringing one close to the stage, but I would advise caution to avoid excessive predelay that sounds too “bouncy” and unrealistic.

Width: Controls the amount of left-right stereo sound generated by Ambience. I set the outer strings (first section violins, cellos, and basses) to a width of 100% so that their reverberant sound travels across the full stereo spectrum. As with the predelay, I used progressively lower width settings for the other instrument groups, ending with a width of approximately 80% for the woodwinds, brass, and timpani. I believe this yields a fairly realistic result, and it reduces the problem of sonic “clutter” that would result if all instruments were at 100% width.

Now, in terms of building ensembles with ARIA, my approach is to group the instruments in each instance according to the Ambience settings I want to use for all instruments in that group. Although Ambience is essentially a "global" effect in each instance of ARIA, you will still have control over the individual instruments' pan, effects send level, and Stereo Stage settings, as well as all defined MIDI controllers.

If you'd like to try using the above-described procedures, then it's simply a matter of spending some time experimenting with the Ambience settings to find what works for the various instrument groupings in your ensembles. However, if you'd prefer to apply the same Ambience settings to every instrument, it really doesn't matter about the order in which you arrange them -- you'll just use as many instances of ARIA as you require to load all the instruments. Even then you'll still be able to set different send levels for each individual instrument patch if you'd like.

You were concerned about the possibility of losing control over your orchestra with only 8 or 9 instances of ARIA. That should not be a problem, but -- and this is very important -- you must use the ARIA Player Multi for ensembles. The reason is that the Multi player sends each instrument over its own MIDI channel, which is essential to applying MIDI controller data for playback through a notation program or DAW. If you were to use the non-Multi version of ARIA, all instruments send over one stereo channel, and any control over the individual instrument patches goes right out the window when you do audio mixes through a DAW.

Regarding the Stereo Stage feature in ARIA, I should mention that it needs to be used in conjunction with Ambience. (I apologize if this seems like a "no duh" comment, but the connection between Ambience and Stereo Stage may not necessarily be obvious.) Because it is a reverb response “add-on”, the degree to which Stereo Stage has a noticeable affect depends on reverb levels. According to my experimentation, the reverb level needs to be at least 50% for Stereo Stage to work. 100% would, of course, be the best. However, if this generates more reverb than you would like, then a suitable reduction of the reverb’s decay time in the Effects panel may be a good solution.

I know I'm going on and on (and on) here, but I wanted to give you as much info as possible. Hope it helps at least a little bit.

Steve

[John Newell]

Steve, I truly appreciate the generosity of your taking the time to help. You are de-mystifying a great deal for me. Very useful information. Now, about Aria Player Multi. What is it? I just downloaded the update to GPO4, and the Aria Player now has the Ensemble button at the top left. There is no indication anywhere of whether it is "Multi" or not. I follow your conclusion.

I can, however, get Digital Performer to read the entire violin I section. I have to add a 2nd Violin I MIDI track, with output from Aria as channel 2, and now they play divisi OK. Maybe I have found Aria Multi, without knowing it. I don't seem to find much specific help in the Garritan Knowledge Base, plus it seems to keep forgetting my password.

Thanks, John

[swinkler]

Steve, I truly appreciate the generosity of your taking the time to help. You are de-mystifying a great deal for me. Very useful information. Now, about Aria Player Multi. What is it? I just downloaded the update to GPO4, and the Aria Player now has the Ensemble button at the top left. There is no indication anywhere of whether it is "Multi" or not. I follow your conclusion.

I can, however, get Digital Performer to read the entire violin I section. I have to add a 2nd Violin I MIDI track, with output from Aria as channel 2, and now they play divisi OK. Maybe I have found Aria Multi, without knowing it. I don't seem to find much specific help in the Garritan Knowledge Base, plus it seems to keep forgetting my password.

Thanks, John

I can't speak to Mac users, but in windows I have two .dll files (dynamic link libraries). I have one called "ARIA Player Multi VST_x86.dll" and "ARIA Player VST_x86.dll". The difference in DAW software such as DP is that the Multi player will let me select a different stereo output for each slot in the Aria engine. The other will only play out stereo channels 1/2.

Here's a screenshot from Reaper and I've highlighted the output part of each slot. By default even the Multi player comes up with 1/2 showing in each slot, but it's a dropdown list to select the other outputs. So in Reaper there are 16 separate audio tracks that correspond to each of the aria slots.

http://home.comcast.net/~winknotes/aria_player.bmp


Hope that helps.

[Steve Johnson]

Steve, I truly appreciate the generosity of your taking the time to help. You are de-mystifying a great deal for me. Very useful information. Now, about Aria Player Multi. What is it? I just downloaded the update to GPO4, and the Aria Player now has the Ensemble button at the top left. There is no indication anywhere of whether it is "Multi" or not. I follow your conclusion.

I can, however, get Digital Performer to read the entire violin I section. I have to add a 2nd Violin I MIDI track, with output from Aria as channel 2, and now they play divisi OK. Maybe I have found Aria Multi, without knowing it. I don't seem to find much specific help in the Garritan Knowledge Base, plus it seems to keep forgetting my password.

Thanks, John

I'm glad you were able to glean some useful info from my rather lengthy post. Mysteries are nice sometimes, but certainly not when we're trying to figure out how to do things on the computer!

The distinction between the ARIA player and ARIA player Multi is made on the VST plug-in level with notation and DAW programs. Mr. Winkler correctly identified the two dll files that are involved. Just a few bits of info I need to add:

If you haven't already done so, you'll need to point Digital Performer to where you have the dll files for both versions of ARIA. I use Sonar 8.5, and I was able to do it with Sonar's VST Plug-ins Manager by pointing it to Program Files > Garritan > ARIA Player > VST, then running a scan of that folder, and voila! The Plug-ins Manager detected the ARIA dll files, and the ARIA and ARIA Multi players appeared on my list of available VST instruments. Sonar doesn't have a problem with the dlls living in a folder outside its Program Files folder. However, other programs do, so Digital Performer may not give you that option. If this is the case, all you need to do is copy the ARIA player dll files from the VST folder under Garritan and paste them into your Digital Performer VST Plug-ins folder. Then you'll have the two ARIA player choices available as VST instruments in Digital Performer.

The next issue has to do with whether your computer is a 32-bit or 64-bit system. If it's a 32-bit system, then the dll filenames will be ARIA Player VST.dll and ARIA Player Multi VST.dll. However, if you're running a 64-bit system those filenames will have _x64 and _x86 added between VST and .dll. This distinguishes between the 64- and 32-bit versions of ARIA. If your version of Digital Performer is 32-bit, it will detect only the 32-bit dll files. But if your version is 64-bit, it will detect both the 32- and 64-bit versions of ARIA. In that situation, there's really no point to having the 32-bit version of ARIA on the list of available VST instruments, so I'd get rid of it if it shows up on the list in Digital Performer.

If you have any further questions, please don't hesitate to ask.

Steve

[John Newell]

I think I got it. What Steve W. shows is the outputs to stereo audio channels (1/2, 3/4, etc). I am routing to MIDI tracks, and I think I'm OK with what I'm trying to do. The other clue is reference to .dll files, which I don't think Mac OS use, so perhaps the Multi Aria is just specific to Windows. I'll post something - an actual sound file - once I can get around to it. I have to remember to accept the first cut as imperfect, and go from there.

Thanks again guys.

John

[Steve Johnson]

I think I got it. What Steve W. shows is the outputs to stereo audio channels (1/2, 3/4, etc). I am routing to MIDI tracks, and I think I'm OK with what I'm trying to do. The other clue is reference to .dll files, which I don't think Mac OS use, so perhaps the Multi Aria is just specific to Windows. I'll post something - an actual sound file - once I can get around to it. I have to remember to accept the first cut as imperfect, and go from there.

Thanks again guys.

John

The ARIA Multi player isn't exclusive to Windows, so it's something you should have when you installed it. However, I'm strictly a PC man (never owned a Mac, never will), and I'm afraid that limits my usefulness in trying to address issues with operating ARIA on a Mac platform.

Best of luck!

Steve

[John Newell]

I'm working slowly, because of the interruptions of my day job (done in 142 days). Steve, I've learned a lot from your posts on Stereo Stage and Ambience. In putting together the orchestra, I assume that you want to set Send at 100% for all instruments. If not, why not?

Also, for Stereo Stage we have to assume that the "microphone" is placed somewhere specific in the space. I like the Concert Hall 2 setting, but that doesn't necessarily mean that Violins I and Vcs are set at 0% Stereo Stage, I wouldn't think? That would mean the "mike" is right up on stage, as I understand what I've read so far. I can see putting the instruments at the back of the stage at 100%. I was thinking of setting the most forward instruments at, say, 15% or 20% (i.e. the first string desks), and gradually increase the setting for string players, then winds, etc.

Any comments welcome!

John

[Steve Johnson]

I'm working slowly, because of the interruptions of my day job (done in 142 days). Steve, I've learned a lot from your posts on Stereo Stage and Ambience. In putting together the orchestra, I assume that you want to set Send at 100% for all instruments. If not, why not?

Also, for Stereo Stage we have to assume that the "microphone" is placed somewhere specific in the space. I like the Concert Hall 2 setting, but that doesn't necessarily mean that Violins I and Vcs are set at 0% Stereo Stage, I wouldn't think? That would mean the "mike" is right up on stage, as I understand what I've read so far. I can see putting the instruments at the back of the stage at 100%. I was thinking of setting the most forward instruments at, say, 15% or 20% (i.e. the first string desks), and gradually increase the setting for string players, then winds, etc.

Any comments welcome!

John

Ah, now we're getting into some "meat and potatoes". I'm responding to you over here, as the following dovetails with and modifies the information I gave you in post #13 above.

The Ambience levels can be set through the Mixer panel send knobs and the level knob in the Effects control panel. As far as I can tell they both do the same thing, which is control the amount of reverb coming out the back end of Ambience. I prefer to use the level knob in the Effects control panel because it furnishes more precise control over the amount of reverb. I set the send levels to 100% in the Mixer panel, then use the level knob in the Effects control panel to "shade" the amount of reverb output for my various ARIA ensembles.

Different reverb levels are useful for approximating front-to-back stage placement of the various instrument groups. I use lower levels for the front instruments, then increase the levels as the instruments go farther back. To modify what I said before about predelay, I think that reverb levels are actually a lot more useful for controlling front-to-back placement effects. I'm not saying not to use predelay at all, but it should be used very judiciously.

Regarding Stereo Stage you have it right -- use lower settings for the front instruments, then increase them as the instruments go farther back. The instruments you load into ARIA will have their own default Stereo Stage settings. I don't know how they were arrived at, but I had to change pretty much every one for the instruments I'm using.

As a guide to help you determine the proper reverb level and Stereo Stage settings for your own particular setup(s), I'll give you a table of the settings I'm using. Before I do, here's a diagram of the instrument placements I'm using for my virtual orchestra. This visual aid will give you some context for my numbers, so hopefully the data in my table won't confuse the heck out of you.


http://levo.com/vch/Stage_diagram.jpg


http://levo.com/vch/Reverb_&_Stereo_Stage_settings.jpg

Now, please bear in mind that I'm using the Ambience Cathedral preset. I did "tone down" the preset's decay to make it more like a large resonant concert hall, but I think my sound space may be bigger than the Concert Hall 2 preset you're using. Although the reverb levels and Stereo Stage settings may need to be different to suit the reverb environment you're working with, I hope the above numbers will give you some helpful ideas on how to configure your setup.

There's one last thing I'd like to say here. At least with Ambience, reverb levels can be used not only for front-to-back placement effects, they can also be used to control the feeling of distance between the listener and the stage. I prefer the feel of being about midpoint between the stage and the back wall of the audience area. This is reflected in the reverb levels I'm using. You, however, may prefer the feel of being much closer to the stage (what I like to call the "front row" effect). If that's the case, you'll probably need to use lower reverb levels, although the trade-off is that lower levels will reduce or eliminate any noticeable Stereo Stage effect. Panning is also an issue you need to be aware of, since the "front row" effect will require wider panning assignments. When you're working with all this, the best thing to do is close your eyes, then mentally visualize where you would see the performers sitting if you were in a real concert hall.

Okay, I guess I've gone on long enough (again). Anyway, I hope you can pull some more useful stuff here, and let me know if you have any more questions.

Steve

[John Newell]

Steve, I can't tell how much I appreciate your observations! They help enormously in giving me a basis to start from and will save me a lot of time. I have several existing orchestral pieces of mine that I want to realize. You've given me a terrific tutorial, with practical tips that I haven't seen before.

My only issue in the next couple of weeks is time to put your suggestions into practice. But I will. Thanks, John

[Steve Johnson]

Steve, I can't tell how much I appreciate your observations! They help enormously in giving me a basis to start from and will save me a lot of time. I have several existing orchestral pieces of mine that I want to realize. You've given me a terrific tutorial, with practical tips that I haven't seen before.

My only issue in the next couple of weeks is time to put your suggestions into practice. But I will. Thanks, John

Any time, my friend. Something I really appreciate about the Garritan forum is the ability to share knowledge and experience. There's so much learning that goes into getting the most out of the great tools we have at our disposal, and it's great if we can help our fellow musicians as much as possible.

Best of luck in your efforts, and I hope we'll soon see a posting from you at the Listening Room announcing that you have something for us to hear. Looking forward to it!

Steve

[John6448]

Steve,

Thank you for posting the detail and thought processes on this subject. Tremendously helpful.

[Steve Johnson]

http://home.comcast.net/~winknotes/aria_player.bmp


Okay, a newbie question here:

In the above screenshot, I see that each instrument has its own MIDI channel. So far, so good. Where I get hazy is on the stereo outputs (1/2, 3/4, etc.). What is the function of having a different pair of outputs assigned to each instrument?

I know I should be able to figure this out myself, but for some reason I'm just not getting it. My DAW is Sonar 8.5, so perhaps an explanation of how the different outputs would be used/applied in that environment will help.

Thanks!

Steve

[Joseph Burrell]

Steve, those are for the purpose of mixing. Most multi-timbral VST's load with all instruments coming out of stereo out pairs 1/2. But this won't do you much good in the mixing phase if you are using different effects, post processing, etc. on an instrument or on a group of instruments.

In Reaper, this process gets a little more complicated, since its not directly obvious how to add mixer channel strips that are tied to VST outputs.

[Steve Johnson]

Steve, those are for the purpose of mixing. Most multi-timbral VST's load with all instruments coming out of stereo out pairs 1/2. But this won't do you much good in the mixing phase if you are using different effects, post processing, etc. on an instrument or on a group of instruments.

In Reaper, this process gets a little more complicated, since its not directly obvious how to add mixer channel strips that are tied to VST outputs.

Joseph, thanks so much for the clarification. Now the stereo output thing makes sense. I haven't gotten far enough with my symphony project to be in the mixing phase yet, but when I do, I'll know how to apply the different stereo outputs in Sonar.

Thanks again!

Steve

[Steve Johnson]

I'd like to offer a point of clarification regarding MIDI channels vs. stereo outputs. This comes as new information to me (thank you, Joseph!), so I wanted to pass it along to address how Ambience would be integrated into audio mixing with a DAW.

Both versions of the ARIA player have 16 MIDI channels. The difference between the two is that the ARIA Multi player can be used to assign different stereo outputs to each MIDI channel, while the non-Multi player sends out only on stereo output 1/2 for all 16 channels. Through your DAW, you can assign different stereo outputs by opening the ARIA Multi player, then clicking on the output to the left of the MIDI channel in each slot. Here's a screenshot:

http://levo.com/vch/ARIA_stereo_outputs.jpg

The stereo pairs you select should correspond logically to each MIDI channel, so MIDI channel 1 = output 1/2, channel 2 = 3/4, etc. By assigning each MIDI channel to its own discrete stereo output, you'll be able to use your DAW's channel mixer for audio mix applications, such as automating channel volume and EQ changes across each audio track, etc. If you were using the non-Multi ARIA player, your audio mixing will affect all tracks the same -- clearly not what you would want!

This has a direct bearing on how you would control Ambience send levels. If you were to assign different stereo outputs to each instrument in the ARIA Multi player, and then change the effects send levels in the Mixer panel, you'll notice that on the MIDI channels with the stereo output other than 1/2, the effects send knob merely increases or decreases the output sound volume. In this circumstance, you must set the effects send knob in the ARIA mixer panel to 100%, then control the actual reverb levels using the level knob in the Effects panel. So that, my friends, is why ARIA gives us Ambience reverb level controls in two different places. (Guess there's some method to my "how to use Ambience" madness after all! ~| :))

Steve

[John6448]

Thanks Steve.

[RichR]

This whole discussion totally confuses me. How do you take one instance of an ARIA Multi and send each instruments channel to an entirely different output source. My ARIA engine in Sonar 8.5 sends out a stereo 1/2 signal not a multi channel signal that I can split to different busses, at least not that I can see. If I send output to 1/2 for the first instrument in ARIA then send the next instrument to 3/4, then the next to 5/6, I get NO SOUND coming from my mixer for the 2nd and 3rd channels of instruments in the ARIA player.

I am using a MoTU 2408 that has 4 stereo outputs (1/2, 3/4, 5/6, 7/8) but I do not see how one gets a single instance of an ARIA engine to send out to 4 separate outputs. What am I missing in this discussion?

It is interesting to follow this and I was hoping to glean some useful information, but I am either too old or to du.. (I won't say it. :))

What is the purpose of channeling to different outs anyway? Why not just render each ARIA instrument to a .wav track and then mix .wav files through any bus sends and returns you want? Of course you would render them dry and not use Ambience until after they are .wav files in which case you would have to use anotherreverb unit and not Ambience.

[Joseph Burrell]

The outputs in the Aria VST have no correspondence to the physical hardware outs you are trying to send audio out of. First, you need to make sure those outputs are enabled in Sonar's audio configuration. Secondly, if you wish to use those outputs, you'll need to do that from within Sonar's track setup.

And to answer the other question... You'd have to have one Aria instance per instrument, or group of instruments, then render each track separately to a WAV file, then begin mixing. That's a lot of steps. Most people prefer to have some mixing done pre-postproduction via routing the instruments through the mixer individually using the audio out pairs shown in the Aria player. This allows you to use Aux Bus sends and per track effects to your liking. You have 16 pairs at your disposal per instance, since I don't think you can use 32 mono channels. Routing and its ease depends entirely on the host sequencer. Some are easier than others to figure out.

[RichR]

Most people prefer to have some mixing done pre-postproduction via routing the instruments through the mixer individually using the audio out pairs shown in the Aria player. This allows you to use Aux Bus sends and per track effects to your liking.

Well, I would really like to know how this is done. Because when I tried to send each ARIA channel to different outs (1/2, 3/4, 5/6, etc.) only 1/2 was found by Sonar. I am obvioulsy missing something hear and I can find no documentation that explains how to do this. It would be great to eliminate all the extra steps that I go through to make a finished product. Maybe one of the video tutorials that some of you are developing for the Garritan tutorial competition will address this.

I have learned more about Photoshop and Lightroom on the photoshop user forums in 6 months than I have gleaned from music forums and mixing forums in the past 6 years. Is it that guarded a secret? :p :)

[Steve Johnson]

Well, I would really like to know how this is done. Because when I tried to send each ARIA channel to different outs (1/2, 3/4, 5/6, etc.) only 1/2 was found by Sonar. I am obvioulsy missing something hear and I can find no documentation that explains how to do this. It would be great to eliminate all the extra steps that I go through to make a finished product. Maybe one of the video tutorials that some of you are developing for the Garritan tutorial competition will address this.

I have learned more about Photoshop and Lightroom on the photoshop user forums in 6 months than I have gleaned from music forums and mixing forums in the past 6 years. Is it that guarded a secret? :p :)

Rich,

I understand your frustration. I started getting pretty frustrated myself trying to figure out how to do what my previous post suggested should be possible in Sonar. Sonar's help documentation I'm afraid leaves something to be desired in terms of completeness and organization of its info. (I'm coming off years of using Cubasis VST 4, which came with the first version of GPO I bought about 5-6 years ago. The Cubasis manual was much better organized and user-friendly.) However, I've been puttering around in Sonar for about the last hour, and I've been making some discoveries that I think may be getting us to where we want to go.

What I find so far is promising, but I need to run a bunch of tests to see A. if I'm on the right track (pun intended), and B. if I am, how precisely we go about hooking up each pair of stereo outputs in ARIA to its own channel volume/EQ mixer in Sonar. In the event that my tests produce a successful outcome, I'll post again with some instructions and screenshots. (Sorry, but I have neither the time nor the capabilities to produce video tutorials, so I'm afraid that a wall of text and a few pics will have to suffice.)

Rich, I hope I'm right about the direction I'm veering into, and perhaps you'll end up getting some satisfaction from all this. Unfortunately, I have a very busy work schedule over the next few days, so I won't be able to start running my tests until Saturday evening. Hopefully I can issue a report with positive findings sometime on Sunday.

Stay tuned!

Steve

[RichR]

That's great Steve. :) In the meantime, maybe you can point me in the direction of where in the user manual some of that information resides. I could always go out and buy the book on Sonar 8.5, but I have an aversion to buying books about subjects that belong in the user manual. :mad:

:):)

[EricP]

How do you take one instance of an ARIA Multi and send each instruments channel to an entirely different output source. My ARIA engine in Sonar 8.5 sends out a stereo 1/2 signal not a multi channel signal that I can split to different busses, at least not that I can see. If I send output to 1/2 for the first instrument in ARIA then send the next instrument to 3/4, then the next to 5/6, I get NO SOUND coming from my mixer for the 2nd and 3rd channels of instruments in the ARIA player.


Let's say we start from scratch and insert in a project ARIA Player Multi vst. By default, you should see the 'Insert Soft synth Options' pop-up (if not, there's a button for that at the top of the synth rack).

In the 'Create These Tracks' box, tick MIDI Source and All Synth Audio Outputs: Stereo, then click OK.

Sonar will then create and route for you 16 stereo tracks for the 16 audio outputs of ARIA Player multi. All you have to do now is load your instruments and load/assign your midi tracks to the proper midi channels of ARIA player. You may not need 16 tracks, just erase the excess so the arrange view is not cluttered.

--------------------------------------------

For an already loaded instance of ARIA Player Multi, just load new audio tracks and select which ARIA Player output you want to route to the audio track input ('All' or 'I/O' tabs in the arrange view).

I like to use these features if I need a compressor on piano or drums, or overdrive on brass instruments as insert effects.


Hope this helps.

[RichR]

EricP, )(~)(~

Thanks so much. There is a whole area of Sonar I had never even envisioned until you showed me those steps. I had read about "Insert Soft Synth Options" and the manual set most users will use the default setup. I had no idea what the rest of those check boxes were for.

Thanks a million! (Well, if you loan me 999,999.99, I can add the .01 for a cool million! :))

[RichR]

EricP, )(~)(~

Thanks so much. I had read about the dialogue in the Soft Synth Options when I first started using the Sonar Software and it stated it is good to just go with the default setting. Boy that was only part of what that is for. I will have to look at all those check boxes in more detail now! :)

p.s. well it seems that I have commented twice on the same topic. My connection got interrupted and I did not think the first post made it on the site, therefore the second comment.

I have been having trouble all day trying to get on to Northern Sounds. I don't know if it is my connection or NortherSound has a problem. Oh well, thanks again. It is really appreciated.

[swinkler]

Here's a thread from long ago that I think will be helpful and answer some of the why questions.

Granted this is before the Aria days, but same principles apply.

http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/showthread.php/67373-DP-Dan-s-Mix-Tutorial-Question...?highlight=tutorial

[RichR]

I have read through that thread and it was a great presentation from all contributors. I learned a lot in the days of Kontakt. When ARIA came out, I was not sure how that would or was implemented until recently when I became aware of those dim little numbers under the names of the loaded instruments in the ARIA engine. I also could not get how Sonar would handle those assignments. EricP's little tutorial opened my eyes to a great potential!

That is why this is one of the best forums in all of Cyberland. Thanks to all the Gary "Crew" and faithful contributors! )(~

[Steve Johnson]

Let's say we start from scratch and insert in a project ARIA Player Multi vst. By default, you should see the 'Insert Soft synth Options' pop-up (if not, there's a button for that at the top of the synth rack).

In the 'Create These Tracks' box, tick MIDI Source and All Synth Audio Outputs: Stereo, then click OK.

Sonar will then create and route for you 16 stereo tracks for the 16 audio outputs of ARIA Player multi. All you have to do now is load your instruments and load/assign your midi tracks to the proper midi channels of ARIA player. You may not need 16 tracks, just erase the excess so the arrange view is not cluttered.

--------------------------------------------

For an already loaded instance of ARIA Player Multi, just load new audio tracks and select which ARIA Player output you want to route to the audio track input ('All' or 'I/O' tabs in the arrange view).

I like to use these features if I need a compressor on piano or drums, or overdrive on brass instruments as insert effects.


Hope this helps.

Eric, thanks so much for those tips! I figured out a different way to accomplish the same result, but what you describe is much easier. You saved me from spending a lot of time on posting a tutorial that would've been pointless.

I do, however, have a follow-up question. (Sorry for asking this, but I'm still pretty much at the bottom of the learning curve with Sonar.) When I go to Console view and scroll over to the stereo output modules, I see a slider below the EQ knobs. I thought this controlled the output volume, but when I moved the slider up and down, the volume hardly changed. Does the slider actually control EQ output? If so, what's the difference between that and EQ gain? There's quite a bit I'm trying to understand about the properties and behaviors of EQ, so any guidance on the subject would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

Steve

[RichR]

When I go to Console view and scroll over to the stereo output modules, I see a slider below the EQ knobs. I thought this controlled the output volume, but when I moved the slider up and down, the volume hardly changed.

I am not sure if I follow you on where the slider is to which you are referring. The EQ is at the top of each channel strip in the Console View. Just above the EQ grid is a sideways slider that is for input trim. What ever is being sent to that channel from any other source can have it's gain increased or decreased here before it goes through the channel strips processing. That is the same as it is on an actual mixer and I am used to setting that trim for my mics and/or keyboards and sound modules.

Other than that slider, the only other one is the slider at the bottom of the strip which is the post gain for the entire channel strip. There are of course knobs for EQ (f, q and gain) shadow effects sends which can be used by inserting a bus and right clicking the area between the EQ and the main gain slider and choosing that bus. (Much easier than a real mixer where that all means plugging in equipment with patch cords, Ugh how I hated that even with a patch bay).

Did I help or just make things more confusing. Afterall, I am not a pro at this by a long shot.

[Steve Johnson]

I am not sure if I follow you on where the slider is to which you are referring. The EQ is at the top of each channel strip in the Console View. Just above the EQ grid is a sideways slider that is for input trim. What ever is being sent to that channel from any other source can have it's gain increased or decreased here before it goes through the channel strips processing. That is the same as it is on an actual mixer and I am used to setting that trim for my mics and/or keyboards and sound modules.

Other than that slider, the only other one is the slider at the bottom of the strip which is the post gain for the entire channel strip. There are of course knobs for EQ (f, q and gain) shadow effects sends which can be used by inserting a bus and right clicking the area between the EQ and the main gain slider and choosing that bus. (Much easier than a real mixer where that all means plugging in equipment with patch cords, Ugh how I hated that even with a patch bay).

Did I help or just make things more confusing. Afterall, I am not a pro at this by a long shot.

The slider at the bottom of the strip is the one I was asking about. If that is post gain for the entire strip, I thought moving it up would increase the sound volume on that channel. That was my understanding, gain = volume, but maybe I have it wrong.

(Rich, I don't know if you've had this experience, but there's so much about working with audio I want to understand, but I just can't seem to wrap my mind around the concepts. I wonder, is it that I need someone to explain it to me, or do I just not have the mental faculties to learn this stuff? Color me :confused: and :o. And apparently I'm also addicted to smilies! :))

Steve

[RichR]

Steve,

It is not a condition of mental faculties as much as a condition of familiarity and usage. If you are not doing recording engineering regular (and I do not except for occassional side line gigs) and you have not used real mixers of which DAWs are electronic imitations, then there is a cohesiveness that doesn't happen when you start to work in this area of music engineering. I have done some live and recorded engineering gigs that changes had to be made on the fly and studio work (as a class student in an recording engineering course). I only barely know how to place mics and set up channel strips and busses. These are all questions that DPDan would be able to field much better.

As for the channel gain. I can only find the same type of result as you are getting if I move the gain slider up and down on the Garritan Sample tracks themselves. Those midi tracks that are assigned to each instrument are really outputing to the ARIA engine and therefore their individual sliders will have little or no effect. If you have set up your DAW in the manner that Eric suggested, you would find that the ARIA channel strip is being routed to one Audio channel strip for each midi track in your piece. If you set the ARIA player up to send to 1/2, 3/4, 5/6, etc and assign each midi track used by the ARIA player to each of those same sends, then the audio will be coming out of the audio tracks that are set up for each channel of midi tracks (or do you have to assign the input of the Audio tracks to each of the ARIA outputs - Yup I think that is it. I don't have Sonar up and running at the moment to check). Now when you move the sliders on the Audio Channels for each midi track, you will definitely here gain changes.

Boy, I bet that was as clear as mud. ;) Let me know if that made any sense. :)

[Steve Johnson]

Steve,

It is not a condition of mental faculties as much as a condition of familiarity and usage. If you are not doing recording engineering regular (and I do not except for occassional side line gigs) and you have not used real mixers of which DAWs are electronic imitations, then there is a cohesiveness that doesn't happen when you start to work in this area of music engineering. I have done some live and recorded engineering gigs that changes had to be made on the fly and studio work (as a class student in an recording engineering course). I only barely know how to place mics and set up channel strips and busses. These are all questions that DPDan would be able to field much better.

As for the channel gain. I can only find the same type of result as you are getting if I move the gain slider up and down on the Garritan Sample tracks themselves. Those midi tracks that are assigned to each instrument are really outputing to the ARIA engine and therefore their individual sliders will have little or no effect. If you have set up your DAW in the manner that Eric suggested, you would find that the ARIA channel strip is being routed to one Audio channel strip for each midi track in your piece. If you set the ARIA player up to send to 1/2, 3/4, 5/6, etc and assign each midi track used by the ARIA player to each of those same sends, then the audio will be coming out of the audio tracks that are set up for each channel of midi tracks (or do you have to assign the input of the Audio tracks to each of the ARIA outputs - Yup I think that is it. I don't have Sonar up and running at the moment to check). Now when you move the sliders on the Audio Channels for each midi track, you will definitely here gain changes.

Boy, I bet that was as clear as mud. ;) Let me know if that made any sense. :)

Well, it sorta kinda did, but I'm sure I'll be able to figure things out. I guess the problem is, as you said, that unless one has hands-on experience as a recording engineer...

Anyway, thanks Rich, and I hope I won't have to pitch a bunch of bonehead questions as I navigate through learning the audio mix side of Sonar.

Steve

[RichR]

I don't have all or many of the answers and there are far more on this board who can certainly help. But, I am reminded of the old college adage that a professor of mine actually used:

"The only dumb question is the one not asked." Answers always should develop more questions. So, fire away and if I can help, I will and if I can't, I am willing to bet someone will. EricP is the one that gave me some insight and I appreciate it.

"Hands on" is a good thing to us old timers who are used to the analog world. By the next generation, there will be no more analog, nor paper books, nor much of what we grew up with. So, we have to move forward and embrace the digital world. Heck, even Ken Jennings welcomed Watson with "opened arms".

[EricP]

I do, however, have a follow-up question. (Sorry for asking this, but I'm still pretty much at the bottom of the learning curve with Sonar.) When I go to Console view and scroll over to the stereo output modules, I see a slider below the EQ knobs. I thought this controlled the output volume, but when I moved the slider up and down, the volume hardly changed. Does the slider actually control EQ output? If so, what's the difference between that and EQ gain? There's quite a bit I'm trying to understand about the properties and behaviors of EQ, so any guidance on the subject would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

Steve


First of all, thank you guys for your kind words, you make my day!


As for your question, Steve, I don't see such slider on my system. I'm on Sonar 8, maybe it was implemented in 8.5...

This makes me realize that since they added the track inspector in the arrange view, i almost never use the console view...

[Steve Johnson]

First of all, thank you guys for your kind words, you make my day!


As for your question, Steve, I don't see such slider on my system. I'm on Sonar 8, maybe it was implemented in 8.5...

This makes me realize that since they added the track inspector in the arrange view, i almost never use the console view...

Eric, it's nice to have someone from Plogue over here who is so responsive, and I appreciate that.

Now, as to the "mystery" slider I was asking about, I'm sure if I poke around Sonar 8.5's help documentation long enough I'll find the answer. With that said, whoever put the help stuff together for Sonar could've taken a lesson from the PDF manual that came with my previous DAW, which was the version of Cubasis VST 4 included in the original GPO install disk set (back in the old Studio days, yes). The Cubasis manual was much better organized, and if I had to find out how to do something, or what this or that was, I could find what I was looking for quite easily. With Sonar, when I click on "help" it seems like I have to spend a lot more time looking for answers to questions than I should. Do other Sonar users have this same experience, or am I just being thick?

As to EQ and anything related, I hope that any questions I may have regarding Sonar will be rendered academic because I won't need to use it. When I rendered my symphony project with GPO2 last year, I found that I had to use quite a bit of EQ automation in my audio mixing through Cubasis. I was also making fairly extensive use of the low-bandpass and high-bandpass filters to change instrument sounds in KP2, and looking back on it I realize that I was probably having to use the EQ in Cubasis to put back what I was taking out on the sample player side. Hopefully I learned my lesson there, and I'm trying not to make the same mistake with ARIA's EQ functions. We'll have to see...

Rich, I agree that the only stupid questions are the ones that aren't asked. That's why I'm glad we have a forum populated with grown-ups who understand this. Can't say the same for a few other music forums I've seen.

Steve

[RichR]

Steve,

I agree with you on the manual. It is like wading through mud and hoping for clear water. I think we need a search engine like Watson (from Jeopardy last week). I am sure he would find what I need to know quicker than stumbling through the Sonar Manual. The best manual I have seen for any of the Sonar series is a third party book on "how-to". I don't feel it is right to have to pay more for a manual that should come with the product in the first place. A few tutorials and a clear discussion what each do-hickey does would have been great. Sort of like the old Finale manual that came in 3 volumes. Those were the good old days.

And you are right Steve, I am never afraid to show my ignorance here. Because when I do (and that is pretty often) someone always has an encouraging and helpful answer to my self made dilemma. We are a luck and cohesive forum. I certainly hope it remains so.

EricP,

Your comments are always welcome and seem to be terse but very insightful. Thankyou.

[jdsnyderii]

I can send/post you a Sonar 8.5 project with a multi configured and different reverb and EQ for each type of instrument. It is helpful to have a working model to build from. I can easily do 64 individual instruments including reverb and EQ with 4 Aria instances, and not use too much memory (too much being a relative term of course).

[Steve Johnson]

I can send/post you a Sonar 8.5 project with a multi configured and different reverb and EQ for each type of instrument. It is helpful to have a working model to build from. I can easily do 64 individual instruments including reverb and EQ with 4 Aria instances, and not use too much memory (too much being a relative term of course).

Actually, that would be quite helpful -- if I can actually see how you have everything set up, I'll probably get a lot more out of that than trying to sort through the bloody Sonar 8.5 "help" documentation.

If you have a website you can put your Sonar file on, just post a link and I'll download it. Otherwise, I can PM you with my e-mail address, then you can e-mail it to me. Let me know either way.

Thanks!

Steve