Planning ORCHESTRAL BRASS SECTION sample recording

[mspruijt]

At the moment I am busy planning a high-quality sampling section of ORCHESTRAL BRASS.
The only real library dedicated to orchestral brass, as far as I know, is Quantum Leap Brass. Actually it\'s only partly dedicated and has a lot of disadvantages, so what we need is a new, big & useful library 100% dedicated to the orchestral brass section!

At the moment, planned instruments are:

Trompet section (3 to 4 trompets)
French horn section (4 horns)
Trombone section (3 trombones)
Tuba (1 to 2 tubas)

Please share with me your 1st advise/suggestions/ideas!

Thanks,

Maarten

[SteveHanlon]

I can tell you right now, if you don\'t also include solo brass on this disc-set, it won\'t be very popular.
In fact it might serve you better to include three soloed trumpets rather than a section of 3-4 trumpets. Same goes for all the instruments.
Give us solo and let us decide if we want 2 or 3 or 4 of any given instrument.

[Simon Ravn]

And I can tell you that without the solo brass, it will still be VERY popular - at least among me!! http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif This sounds really good, I hope you have some good players to do it, so you can get brilliant performances. I think trumpets, fhorn and trombone can all be done much better than what is out there at the moment. Especially what I would be looking for are a ton of different expressions (many velocity layers, hand in bell, hand half in bell (if that is a playing style at all, etc) on the french horns. There are no french horns that sound really Hollywood-ish today. Huge horns, both the hand-in-bell with \'oooomph\' and the big, softer sound are lacking. Trumpets... well everybody have been asking for John Williams kind of trumpets - very precise, fff performance without vibrato for stabs - and just very bright and clear \'outbursts\'. Trombones... not so sure about what you could do with those. But generally I just think at least 3-4 velocity layers on everything (maybe 8 on the fhorns http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif) and lots of different expressions: legato with fast attacks, legato with softer attacks and such.

[Simon Ravn]

And oh.. to Marty: Putting 3 similar, or almost similar (or dissimilar, for that matter) trumpets/fhorns/whatever on top of eachother will never sound like a section....

[Robert Kral]

mspruijt: I agree totally with Simon!! I don\'t think your libary NEEDS solo instruments. I myself am looking for a better ensemble brass library, and simon has nailed it in terms of what I want too: louder, brighter punchier brass that sounds huge, or at least bigger than most libraries out there.

QL Brass comes close, don\'t get me wrong its an excellent library.

My suggestion is this: pop in a couple of your favorite Film music soundtrack CDs and listen for that brass sound, listen for what the brass is doing and how superb it sounds. Then figure out how we might closer achieve that using samples.

Like simon has suggested, it\'d be by way of large ensemble sections, swells (and PLEASE something longer than the short sfz and swells out there already (again QLBrass was good, but we could have more), crescendo and decrescendo, how about both in one sample (<<>>), huge bright stabs, maybe some rhtyms? maybe short runs (listen to some chase or fight scenes) etc.

I also love it when \"p\" sustains are crossfaded via modwheel to \"ffffff\". I added a few extra fortissimos there because very very rarely do any samples seem to sound like the kind of fortissimo Simon and I are talking about.

French Horns: how about just two more horns to make the ensemble six horns?

Thanks,

Rob

[This message has been edited by Robert Kral (edited 04-11-2001).]

[jdeborde]

Please don\'t forget a big fat bass trombone! I also vote for both solo and ensemble playing, as well as an extensive collection of performance techniques, especially from the horns, e.g. stopped to unstopped notes w/ and w/o a gliss, a variety of stopped articulations, etc.

thanx!

[mspruijt]

Thanks to all you guys for the useful replies. This is THE way to learn about the sample needs of the real, common user!

BY ALL MEANS, LET US CONTINUE THIS FORUM TRHEAD and gather more and more info and ideas!

I totally agree NOT to sample solo brass. I think there are simply enough well-done libraries for solo instruments, like the X-Sample series, which has some really playable solo samples.

I also agree we should study and try to focus on the \"heavier\" film soundtracks (Zimmer, Williams) and decide which list of brass techniques, note lenghts and attack-speeds would be required to simulate let\'s say, the kind of heavy French horn melodies like in Gladiator, track 3 at 3\'00 or 4\'13. There\'s a great need of short brass, accented samples, longer than staccato, but shorter than portato. I\'m sure you all know what I mean.

6 French horns hey? Well it isn\'t a standard number in a normal symphony orchestra, but we\'ll see. It really depends on the weight and strength of the 4 horns-samples!

The bass trombone jdeborde mentioned sounds attractive too! It can give you much more body when playing loud passages.

Just one note: let\'s not only focus on the heavy, full-blast Action movie sound, but ALSO on the need of more subtle, soft samples. French horns are beatiful to play soft, sensitive passages.

As it\'s planned now, there will be programming for AKAI and GIGA. I am a Gigastudio user and I will do the Giga-format programming. I\'ll surely use the modulation wheel to crossfade betweem soft and loud and perhaps the release trigger function from version 2.0 is interesting for adding realistic note ends.

I\'ll wait for some more replies and post mine along the way!

Thanks again,

Maarten Spruijt
( http://mspruijt.ontheweb.nl (\"http://mspruijt.ontheweb.nl\") )

[Ewen]

6 french horns is what John Williams use. He use 4 trumpets, 4 trombones and 6 french horns.

It would be great to have pp/p staccato samples in the french horns to be used with soft melodies.

And I have never heard the \"darth vader\" trombone sound in any library yet...Maybe this is the time?

Ewen

[This message has been edited by Ewen (edited 04-11-2001).]

[OH]

I just say: Do NOT forget Pop/Rock/Jazz!!!

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O.H.

[OH]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by OH:
I just say: Do NOT forget Pop/Rock/Jazz!!!

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh. Sure: PLEEEAAAAASE & THANKS!



------------------
O.H.

[Haydn]

I agree with Steve Mitchell. Using Brass sections for unison playing fine if you just use unison playing. The problem occurs when you have a unison line that breaks into harmony at the end. One example being the main theme for Star Wars. This is a technique that John Williams uses in many of his compositions.

It would be nice if you could have 3 different trumpets played as a real section would play it. This would work best if GigaStudio was able to vary the pitch of samples slightly at random. Because most samples are in the same tuning and stay static, this causes a weak sound when playing unison. Just a few thoughts.

[esperlad]

Sounds good so far, please be sure to include keyswitch instruments! This works well for me when I want to switch articulatioins.

[Simon Ravn]

6 french horns is realistic for huuuuuuuge unison melody lines and such, but I agree that when you turn that into maybe 2 or 3 fhorn voices, it will be unrealistic with a 12 or 18 fhorn orchestra! http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif So... preferably you should do both 4 (or 6) and 2/3 fhorn samples for all expressions.. yeah I know this is a lot to record and program... Speaking of programming, you could use keyswitching for choosing how big your ensemble should be. E.g. you could have a legato patch with both 2 players, 3 and 6, switchable on C1, C#1 and D1 or something.

For huge horns, the ouverture to Williams\' Hook is a brilliant example. For delicate trombone work the Hymn to the Fallen track of Saving Private Ryan is a treat! If you have an ICQ # I\'d be happy to discuss this library with you on the net!! http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

[Jamieh]

I just want to agree with Simon and Robert. Give us a brass library that lets us get the brass sound used by John Williams and I will pay you whatever you want for it. Ok, maybe not WHATEVER you want, but the checkbook will be open.

I think a great place to start would be to listen to the opening of \"Olympic Fanfare and Theme\" (on the \'By Request, the best of John Williams\' CD). A sample library that could pull off those articulations would be worth it\'s weight in gold.

I\'m not as concerned about the 4 players vs 2 player thing. Give me good ensemble brass playable at multiple dynamic levels with multiple articulations and I will be happy as a clam.


[This message has been edited by Jamieh (edited 04-11-2001).]

[SteveMitchell]

You want \"BIG\" horn sound? Listen to the opening bars of Mahler\'s 3rd Symphony, with 8 double-horns belting out the beginning. Not those itty-bitty Paxmans or Alexanders - big ones like an older Conn 8d! <takes your breath away>.

Likewise with the sampling, please use some bigger horns.

Steve Mitchell
The Classical MIDI Resource (\"http://www.classicalmidiresource.com\")
The CMR Players (\"http://www.mp3.com/cmrplayers\")

[Robert Kral]

ALSO: another request:

It is very very useful to blend in muted trumpets with crescendo/decrescendo, swells etc. Not that I\'d necessarily think you\'d leave out muted trumpets (and horns of course!) but please also include muted patches in the swells/ crescendo categories etc.

[Bill]

Brass in general, and French Horns in particular frequently play divisi. Having 6 Horns or even 4 Horns in a single patch has limited utility. I think two or three non-identical ‘pairs’ would be more useful.

[Robert Kral]

mspruijt: I LOVE that you wrote above: \"There\'s a great need of short brass, accented samples, longer than staccato, but shorter than portato. I\'m sure you all know what I mean.\"

I was just thinking I wanted to add to my requests above this very thing.

I had another listen to \"The Throne Room\" track from the original Star Wars move (you know: Episode IV, Film One)...anyway it\'s filled with great articulations that are lacking in sample libraries. Like what you are saying: short accents, staccatos that aren\'t too short (though bigger brighter samples of that would be good too). For example the very first note of that track: It\'s what some libraries label \"Portamento\", its a note about a half second in length, accented but somehow well rounded. The beginning attack is accented, but the note swiftly decrescendos into nothing (its simply the way the air passes through the brass). Live Brass sections do it all the time. Varying lengths of that kind of thing would be fantastic. the are also very useful to switch to when finishing a phrase.

What if releasing the key would trigger this kind of note-ending? Or at least a key switch in the gigastudio. It would add a good deal of realism and expression to the librarry.

Because of the way Brass players perform, a collection of various shorter lengths would be most useful, particularly at the louder levels.

Anyway, glad you suggested it because yes we DO know what you mean!!

Rob

[This message has been edited by Robert Kral (edited 04-11-2001).]

[SteveMitchell]

Hmmmm, the name \"Brass Section\" evokes aural nightmares of those old disco songs that used synth-brass in unison. I don\'t believe that there\'s that much music written for the individual brass sections to play in unison all of the time, so such a library would be limited, at least in a classical environment.

It would be great if someone could program a section, let\'s say trumpets, that was made up of three sample streams, 1st, 2nd, and 3rd, that could be pitched independently, and one that on which you could \"smear\" start and stop times for notes.

But after thinking about it, it might be easier to simply have sample sets from three different trumpets/trumpeters (trumpet1, trumpet2, and trumpet3), four different horns/horn players (horn1, horn2 horn3, and horn4), three separate \'bone players, etc. That way you could do the setups yourself.

Steve Mitchell
The Classical MIDI Resource (\"http://www.classicalmidiresource.com\")
The CMR Players (\"http://www.mp3.com/cmrplayers\")

[mspruijt]

My god, this need of orch. brass, ESP. FRENCH HORNS, is much, much bigger than I ever could\'ve imagined!!!

For now, I\'m not going to reply to all suggested ideas individually, but I can say: they\'re all great! You sure all know what you want. I will do a couple of replies:

I realize the problem playing 4-note harmonies with a sample that\'s already performed by 4 horns. I an way, it would be madness! The keyswitching would be a very nice way to switch from 1 horn sample layout to, well, let\'s say 4 horns, if that sounds big enough.

Guys (and girls), single-note samples is one thing... what about effects and short phrases? I myself would be very interested in a lot (and I mean a lot!) of brass clusters, both sustained and short accented. They\'re great for carrying out hits (full-blast, here we go again!)

I\'ll look for the cd\'s you all mentioned. I do have a lot of soundtracks in my collection, in which mr. Williams and mr. Zimmer play a major role. Hans Zimmer really is a great inspiration for sampling needs. He uses a lot of CUSTOM orchestral samples, not all the time, ofcourse, but when he does, it sure has some realism AND EXPRESSION I would like to have! As you will probably know, he (well he told others to do it) sampled the complete London Symphony Orchestra. Would be great to have those samples on a tiny little cd, wouldn\'t it!

About the pop/rock/jazz idea: this is exactly what we\'re NOT going to focus on. Our \'Prime Directive\' is to create a fully, 100% ORCHESTRAL brass library, useful for orchestrating sections, but (when doing the keyswitch 1 to 4 horns sample trick) can be used solo as well.

Please, let us not forget that we\'ll never achieve real-orchestra-realism with samples, BUT... as I see my list of needed sample files growing, perhaps we\'ll make it quite far!

- Maarten Spruijt

>>> Anyone interested in my music (at the moment using only commercial libraries!) please visit http://mspruijt.ontheweb.nl (\"http://mspruijt.ontheweb.nl\") <<<

[jazzman1222]

As a Professional Trumpet Player, I just wanted to make a few points which may make it easier for those contemplating Sampled Brass Libraries.
1. The Important element that seems to be missing is the TYPE of brass recording & the actuall instruments used. For example, in a Orchestral library, you would want to record the section from where they would sit in the orchestra, thus giving weight & \"Air\" to the samples. For a perfect example of this, listen to the Chicago Symphony under George Solti in the Mahler 2nd on London Decca. This is the Sound John Williams is known for in the Star Wars type Scenerio. The other reason that Orchestral brass differs from \"Pop-Rock\" brass is the instruments. For Example, The trumpet most used in American Orchestra\'s is a Dark, Heavy wall Bach, Monette, or Shilke C Trumpet. This gives a very full, sound with lot\'s of \"Core & Opulance\". Check out \"Dances with Wolves\" with the great Malcom Mcnabb, Hollywoods hottest Film Trumpeter. In Pop music, A Bright, Thin sound is in order. These Trumpets are always keyed in Bb, using a Callichio, Yamaha, or Layler type trumpet. Check out anything by Jerry Hey or Garry Grant or Chuck Findley (Earth Wind & fire, Tower of Power, Al Jarrue, etc)These sessions are also Closed miked with Shure sm57\'s and the brass are frequently double tracked. Trombones are in a similer situation with Heavy walled brass used in orchestral situations. I hope this is usefull information for those considering recording your own library.

[clueless]

I read that everyone is opposed to including solo classical trumpets. Maybe you have your own personal solo trumpet libraries that are outstanding. I have not heard any commercial versions that are what I would call satisfying, versatile, and playable unless you bathe them in reverb.

Can someone point me to a set of solo trumpets that are REALLY believable?

Clueless

[Robert Kral]

mspruijt: WOW!! YOU SAY: \"Guys (and girls), single-note samples is one thing... what about effects and short phrases? I myself would be very interested in a lot (and I mean a lot!) of brass clusters, both sustained and short accented. They\'re great for carrying out hits (full-blast, here we go again!)\"

Now you\'re REALLY hitting the nail on the head. I\'d really love this, and I\'d really love this NOW!!!

I think it\'s a good idea to focus this library on the particular need you are trying to serve. There\'s a huge (and heated) discussion on this forum about how libraries should be presented, IE a debate between a full library and seperate patches sold, that way you only buy what you want. I think you sould do a macro version of that, meaning produce you orchestral CD that gives us these particular needs.

The producer of QLBrass likes to have completeness, making the CD a work of art in terms of covering everything. QLBrass also aims at both orchestral and pop.

I\'d love to see your CD just focus on what we DON\'T HAVE for orchestral use. What we don\'t have is the things you\'ve discussed and others have suggested. (Seems we also don\'t have Pop Brass, but I feel that that is a different library from this one).

So anyway, I would buy fx/short phrases and clusters even if that was all that was on the CD. Add all the large brass sustains and staccatos we\'ve talked about, and my guess is that all of Hollywood (meaning the film & TV composers) will buy it in a snap.

THANKS!

Rob http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

[This message has been edited by Robert Kral (edited 04-12-2001).]

[KingIdiot]

howabout multiple (read: not just 2) samples for *EACH* velocity of staccato/hit/clusters

giving variety and aloowing for fast licks that don\'t sound like the same sample over and over.

I like of endemble sections, maybe one french horn section at 4/6 and one at 2 so we can create 2/3 part harmonies if we need, but still ahve the option of Unity note samples. This serves two purposes, ensemble \"sound\" and lower poly.

I think what you\'re saying about focusing on not only \"full blast\" is somethign that sounds good...but REALLY,..its what everyone is looking for http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif so I\'d suggest using the term \"not focusing\" lightly http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

Howabout true legoto notes \"from\" a note. For the truely MIDI literate and tweak geeks. to create our own crossfading melody lines. If every note is too much then maybe only half steps, 3rds and perfects? Maybe set up to crassfade in on keytrigger releases.

Random \"brething in\" of players (multiple samples), just for added nuance/realism for geeks.

Looped versions of samples with key trigger releases.

\"trills\" at full blast

Don\'t hurt the players with all the loud notes http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif



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Really...I am an Idiot

[mspruijt]

KingIdiot,

Your note-interval combination idea sounds attractive, but think about the time needed to record all those combinations! It will grow almost exponentially!!! Miroslav Vitous has done 1 or 2 different 2-note interval portamentos in 1 sample for the violins, but only in 1 dynamic range, 1 tempo, 1 instrument, a few keys (!) and hey: 1 or 2 different intervals!

Perhaps there is another, smarter and more efficient way to use the crossfade technique in order to create realistic portamento/legato note changes with 2 seperate samples. I\'ll think about it.

Thnx for your topic post.

[Robert Kral]

mspruijt: I have another suggestion, relating to staccatos.

Could you provide some patches that have, say, three octaves of staccato on the bottom half of the keyboard, followed by another three octaves of the same pitch BUT DIFFERENT SAMPLES of staccato in the upper half of the keyboard.. In each of these sets we would have SEVERAL (as was already suggested) velocity switches for dynamics.

This way we can play very rapid repeated notes, or runs, or simulated flutter tongue thingys, all with loud accent blasts at the highest velocity (because of the incredibly loud velocity of staccato you\'ll be sampling!) etc all by way of the user playing rythms in octaves.

This beats trying to play double handed fast rhtyms on one key: here they would be seperated by a couple of octaves and the retriggering of the same pitch will be faster.

(This reminds me of asking Donnie to make timpani patches octaves apart for rolls. At the time someone suggested each user do this manually by copying, but it\'s much nicer to have it ready to go. PLUS the staccatos would be different samples between the octaves for authenticity anyway)

(You could fit it on disc number twelve)

Thanks,

Rob

[This message has been edited by Robert Kral (edited 04-12-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Robert Kral (edited 04-12-2001).]

[Ewen]

I agree with Robert, a great idea...

Ewen

[mspruijt]

Robert, I think it\'s a great idea.

In general, it may be a first-timer to include presets with exactly the same samples, but with different layouts and functionality.
Only... when using ordinary Giga-files (with the wave files built inside the sample preset file) this would mean you have each sample on your harddisk a couple of times, one for each preset layout, which isn\'t very efficient (esp. for the amount of cd\'s!)
But there must be a different way.

Keep up the great responses!

- Maarten

[Chadwick]

Martin,
Really enjoyed the demo stuff from Tijmen\'s Plot. You should be very proud.

I just want to lend my support to all of Robert and King Idiot\'s suggestions.

Don\'t lose the 6 FH unison for the sake of split harmonies - do what King suggests.

Multiple different staccato attacks at the same/similar velocities is an absolutely necessary feature once you get into fast repetitive lines and chords. Robert\'s suggestion of devoting half the keyboard to either set would work for me.

Generally I just want to say hold on to your basic premise of supplying the tools we need to achieve that big Hollywood sound, and don\'t get distracted by the (inevitably) growing wish list.

You\'ll never finish a library which fulfills everyone\'s disparate needs, but you\'ll be a Sampling God if you accomplish your initial brief.

Best of luck.

[KingIdiot]

you\'re right its a crazy task....
tahts why I\'m asking you to do it and not trying to do it myself...mwahahahahaha!!

how about jsut short 2-3 second samples that are just the note change?

They would not be \"playable\" realtime notes, but would be great for editing in a sequencer. And creating our own Crossfades between tracks.

From what I gather from SCARBEE\'s Bass Library, things like hammerons and pull offs were sampled as well as slides, and editing crazily with good cross fades ALL jsut so some MIDI tweaker can have nearly any type of sound in a virtual \"toolbox\" for the instrument.

Listening to his demos makes me think he\'s on to something http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif If if its only for MIDI tweakers. in Fact I har his has some neat \"tricks\" in terms of programming. I still have to buy it....as well as Nick\'s Rare I., all of Donnie and Sean\'s stuff, The X Sample stuff, Gary Garritan\'s stuff, Dan Dean\'s stuff, This library (may I jsut call you a jackass for this and get it out of the way, since my checkbook is going to tell me to call you one)...not to mention food.....

I\'ll also probably be samplign some Brass on my own for pop/band stacks and licks, for a project.......tahts gonna cost me for good players....joy joy joy joy......

I should learn how to play every instrument in the world...then I can Sample myself MWAHAHAHAHAHAHA....uhhhh.....yah....




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Really...I am an Idiot

[mspruijt]

Really...you\'re an idiot!

(just joking)

I\'ve really gotten a lot of response in a short amount of time. I think it\'s time for me to make a list of all the wishes, instruments, players and ideas and what\'s going to be done and what\'s not.

I\'ll post my sample list right here, so stay tuned!

[Jamieh]

Martin, what string samples are you using in your Tijmen\'s Plot music?

Very good stuff by the way.

[mspruijt]

Thanks Jamieh.

In the Tijmen\'s Plot score I had a total number of 67 midi tracks, of which 6 were for strings:
1. Advanced Orchestra (strings soft sustains patch)
2. Miroslav violin section
3. Miroslav tremolo violin section
4. Miroslav contrabasses section
5. Ultimate Strings violins marcato
6. Roland Symphony Orchestra Tutti sample

As you can see and perhaps hear, number 1 is for the overall, easy to use string sound you hear through the score. Numbers 2, 3 and 4 are for details. For example: the AO patch really lacks bass, so I double certain bass passages with the Miroslav basses. Number 5 is for the marcato, Zimmer-style \"rock\" strings, like during the chase in \"Intro & Opening Scene\". A very nice sample! Number 6 is a full-blast tutti orchestra sample. You hit a C and you hear a full orchestra playing a C, in one or two octaves. Very nice for creating those really wide and fat layers as a base to built on!

Enough information?

Later today, I will probably post my brass library sample list...

Maarten Spruijt
(http://mspruijt.ontheweb.nl)

[mspruijt]

Anyone wanting to discuss this library with me directly...

Here\'s my ICQ #: 37834976

Maarten Spruijt
( http://mspruijt.ontheweb.nl (\"http://mspruijt.ontheweb.nl\") )

[mspruijt]

I could really use some professional advise on good, professional recording techniques for (brass in a) orchestra. As we will be taking dry and wet recordings at once, writing to multitrack, I was thinking about the following setups:

Wet: an XY pair of (Senheiser) mics placed above the conductor\'s location

Dry: an MS setup of mics 2 or 3 metres from the brass section.

Please comment...

[Jamieh]

Well that just shows you how you have to really play with every patch you have. I own AO and I hadn\'t been using the soft sustain string patch. It blows the normal AO pp string patch out of the water for soft string passages.

I\'d type more but I am about to go through my latest project (which has tons of soft strings in it) and change my string patch. Thanks Martin. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

[tonylombardi]

A/B the samples against other popular libraries out there as soon as is possible. Obviously you want these samples to be the best around, so this is a sure way of doing it. Make a sequence of some popular brass passage, for example Aaron Copland\'s Fanfare for the Common Man, or something that has as many types of articulations you can think of (there\'s not much fast tongueing in the fanfare).
Then customize these sequences for the AO brass and Nick\'s brass collection(forgot the name) and any other top library.
A/B individual instruments as you make them too. The Carnival of Venice would be excellent for trumpet. There\'s a ton of fast stuff in that. Sequence it for other top trumpet samples, and as soon as your done sampling your trumpet, sequence it with the sample you have.
This may be obvious but I don\'t know how these libraries are made, and just wanted to make sure this process is included.

Anthony Lombardi http://www.mp3.com/alombardi (\"http://www.mp3.com/alombardi\")

[Maarten Spruijt]

I put together a first version of the sampling list of the trompet section. There will first be a test recording of this list, which will be edited and programmed to see its usefulness.

TROMPET SECTION
---------------

A) SINGLE-NOTES: NORMAL & CUP MUTE
CHROM. sampled in 4 \"velocities\": p/mf/f/ff

- longest sustain soft attack (natural expression)
- longest sustain hard attack (natural expression)
- long portato soft attack
- long portato hard attack
- short portato soft attack 2x
- short portato hard attack 2x
- marcato (clear tone, not too short) 3x
- staccato (clear tone) 3x
- staccatissimo (very short) 3x

B) SWELLS: NORMAL & CUP MUTE
Samples in minor thirds

- pp > mf > pp (2.0 sec, round shape)
- mp > ff (0.5 sec, aggressive)
- mp > ff (1.5 sec, aggressive)
- mf > ff > p (2.0 sec, aggressive mid)

C) CLUSTERS & FX

- 6 low sustained clusters (5 sec)
- 6 high sustained clusters (5 sec)
- 6 sustained cluster trills (5 sec)
- mp > ff cresc. gliss. from L to H (1.5 sec)
- mp > ff cresc. trills. from L to H (1.5 sec)
- variations on the last 2

When the test recording and editing is succesful, I will post some demos right here.

- Maarten Spruijt
( http://mspruijt.ontheweb.nl (\"http://mspruijt.ontheweb.nl\") )

[Maarten Spruijt]

ADDITION TO THE LIST ABOVE:

The SINGLE-NOTE part will be sampled with both full and 1/2 section.
This way we have about 3000 samples for the trompet section only. Compare Siedlaczek, which has about 110 samples for the trompets!

- Maarten Spruijt

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( http://mspruijt.ontheweb.nl (\"http://mspruijt.ontheweb.nl\") )
ICQ: 37834976

[SteveMitchell]

Hi Maarten - I guess that means that there won\'t be 4 separate trumpets sampled, to be played together as a section. That\'s fine for Pop and Jazz, but as discussed earlier in this thread, most Classical music doesn\'t have brass playing in unison all of the time, so the libraries use there will be limited. Oh well, thanks for the opportunity to make suggestions.

Steve Mitchell
The Classical MIDI Resource (\"http://www.classicalmidiresource.com\")
The CMR Players (\"http://www.mp3.com/cmrplayers\")

[Maarten Spruijt]

Steve,

This is why I chose to sample an alternative HALF section and not a SINGLE player...

In think when playing a harmony with 3 or 4 solo trompets, you don\'t get the effect of a trompet section playing that harmony. It\'ll really sound like 4 seperate solo samples playing at the same time.
By using half-section samples, so with 2 trompets per sample, you get a much thinner sound so you can play larger hamonies, but you still maintain that \"section\" sound in the sample.
And believe me: when you actually hear EIGHT trompets playing (by pressing a 4-voiced harmony with the half-section sample), in a virtual orchestration this will STILL sound thinner than FOUR REAL trompets playing in a REAL orchestra.

But hey, that\'s why I\'m doing the test session! We\'ll find out if it works!

- Maarten Spruijt

[Jamieh]

For whatever reason, I\'ve found that playing several solo brass patches together doesn\'t usually give me the section sound I want, so I don\'t know how valuable having 4 solo trumpets would be. They might end up sounding like 4 solo trumpets instead of a trumpet section.

[meltingmars]

I just read this, and don\'t know it\'s validity. I got it off of www.petersontuners.com (\"http://www.petersontuners.com\")

But if this is true, maybe you should add certain intervals like major thirds which they talk about here.
mars

READ this
###############
So, why worry about altered temperaments if equal temperament is so pervasive? The reasons are many and varied. Because equal temperament lands so squarely in favor of flexibility, some of the intervals are, well, not very pleasing. For example, major thirds are about 14 cents sharp from the \"perfect\" non-beating interval...and how often do you play a piece of music with no major thirds anywhere? In some music, on some instruments, this is bearable. (We certainly have had a lot of opportunity to get used to it!) But play a major third interval using a brass or reed sound (with no chorusing or other effects) on a standard equally-tempered synthesizer, and you will understand something about why people still want to hear \"live\" horn sections. No matter how good the actual timbreG of the synthesized sound is, there is something very \"unhorn-like\" and disturbing about that simple harmony. Good brass and reed players constantly, and sometimes unconsciously, \"lip\" the notes they play to minimize intervalic beating with notes played by others in their section.

[Jamieh]

That is one aspect of samplers that is very difficult to emulate. Real players (at least the good ones) are constantly adjusting their pitch to \"fit\" into whatever they are playing.

Of course, this is true with volume, articulation and everything else as well. The best a sample library can do is give the composer the ability to alter these things as he sees fit. Then it is up to the composer to attempt to emulate a professional player.

I don\'t find samples such as major 3rds to be useful at all, because then I have to load up a specific sample for each interval I want to use. That would get really silly. If you really wanted to address this \"problem\" probably the only useful way would be to have the patches repond to pitch bend.

[This message has been edited by Jamieh (edited 04-18-2001).]

[Robert Kral]

Trumpet section list looks great!

Here\'s a few wishes though...

How ab out a longer crescendo from mp to ff also. THe 1/2 sec is useful, but so would a, say, 3 second version too.

Great to see cres/decrescendo!

Clusters: this looks great, but can we ALSO have a HIT (loud staccatto) of the SAME cluster. Its great if we have the cluster, add our own (controller 7) crescendo and swell it into a hit (loud blast) of the same chord, or \"cluster\".

Thanks,

Rob

[Gulliver]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Maarten Spruijt:
And believe me: when you actually hear EIGHT trompets playing (by pressing a 4-voiced harmony with the half-section sample), in a virtual orchestration this will STILL sound thinner than FOUR REAL trompets playing in a REAL orchestra.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hello, Maarten

This sampling phenomenon is 100% right. Certain instruments, no matter how well sampled (w/ the latest in hi-quality mics and recorders) do not carry off the same balance they do in the real world vs sampling world. The Strings and Brass sections diffenently belong in this group, the woodwinds and percussion seem to fair well and you can rely on the usual standard orchestration techniques to judge overall balance.

Marteen,

- staccato (clear tone) 3x

Does the above (3x) mean you\'ll be sampling 3 different variations of the same technique? And are the Trombone and Horns going to receive the same treatment afforded to Trumpets? It would be really something if you can record samples in the top f/ff range that are fluid, bright and powerful. The weakest links I\'ve observed so far in all brass libraries are the sustained f/ff Horns, f/ff Trombones, and long portato Trombones with hard attacks that quickly fall in timbre to mp/p quality. I think the p and mp dynamics are all well represented on all the instruments in most of the sample sets out there.

Good luck with project.

Regards,
F. Juma.

[Robert Kral]

Can the loud and soft sustains (long) be layered and crossfaded via modwheel?

Then we could try to fake our own crescendos and expressive swells.

[This message has been edited by Robert Kral (edited 04-18-2001).]

[Maarten Spruijt]

You misunderstood my \"minor third\" note in the sample list!!!

It means I\'m not going to sample those swells chromatically, so 1 sample for each not on the keyboard, but (as most libraries have) 1 sample for the 3 keys surrounding. The sampler pitches the nearest actual sample when you press a key that hasn\'t a sample assigned to itself.

If you still don\'t have a clue what I\'m talking about, just open a random pitch-instrument in your Giga-editor.

So NO, I\'m not going to actually sample minor third \"harmonies\" in 1 sample! Indeed, what would be the use of that! You would also need to sample all other intervals; THEN perhaps it would be useful.

- Maarten Spruijt

[KingIdiot]

heres a thought regardign altered vs equal temperment

what if you (well on our owna s well) created patches that had slight pitch modifications that corresponded to the \"true\" harmonics of intervals

One for each key. yeah its insane,..but do you think it\'d be possible to create a more \"live\" sound this way?

hmmm... Time to bust out the calculater and start doign some pitch editing in the editer.....
this really is something that intrigues me right now. Its a sinmple thought thta I have been overlooking for a long time

thanks melting....I think I may have to fool with some of this

[Robert Kral]

Maarten

Just wondering, what time frame do you have in mind for (a)the recording of your brass samples and (b) the possible release date of the library??

[Aaron Symonds]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Maarten Spruijt:
You misunderstood my \"minor third\" note in the sample list!!!

It means I\'m not going to sample those swells chromatically, so 1 sample for each not on the keyboard, but (as most libraries have) 1 sample for the 3 keys surrounding. The sampler pitches the nearest actual sample when you press a key that hasn\'t a sample assigned to itself.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you don\'t sample the swells chromatically they won\'t end at the same time! I find this really annoying when using the AO brass. Any chance of you reconsidering?...please?

[Maarten Spruijt]

If all goes as planned and the test session is a succes, then all samples will probably be recorded this mid-summer. June/July.
After that, all audio data has to be edited, programmed, etc. I can\'t tell you anything more at this moment.

I\'ll be more specific when I can.

Let\'s first wait till the test trompet samples are here, ok?

- Maarten Spruijt

[Maarten Spruijt]

Aaron, that problem crossed my mind!
A cheap solution is to cut or stretch the calculated, non-recorded samples during the editing phase.

Ofcourse, sampling chromatically will be best. We\'ll do our best!

- Maarten Spruijt

[tonylombardi]

\"In think when playing a harmony with 3 or 4 solo trompets, you don\'t get the effect of a trompet section playing that harmony. It\'ll really sound like 4 seperate solo samples playing at the same time.\"
I don\'t quite understand what you\'re saying here Martin. Why won\'t you get the effect of 4 trumpets playing in harmony when playing back 4 solo trumpet samples? If it has to do with imaging, you can make different solo samples with different positions of the player. Then when you play them back you\'ll hear each trumpet play from a different spot in the stereo field. Of course this makes sense only if you sample in stereo.

I can\'t imagine why you wouldn\'t want to include solo samples. I think you\'ll loose a LOT of customers if you don\'t.

[Maarten Spruijt]

Tony,

I am still considering to sample (next to full section ofcourse) half section (so 2 trompets) or solo samples.

4 solo trompet samples mixed together don\'t sound like a real section, believe me. For example, in reality the 4 soundwaves of the 4 trompets in the concert hall INFLUENCE each other, creating a unique sound at the spot you\'re standing: the section sound. When you record one of those trompets 4x and mix them later, you don\'t get that natural acoustic influencing and a different sound.
Compare this: if you would like a 14-player violin section too sound TWICE as loud, you must have TEN times the amount of players, NOT TWICE.

Still, solo samples have, again, their own advantages over half section samples.
But more on this later...

Maarten Spruijt

------------------
( http://mspruijt.ontheweb.nl (\"http://mspruijt.ontheweb.nl\") )
ICQ: 37834976

[Robert Kral]

Maarten:

I still wouldn\'t mind just the ensembles. I think there is a lot of good solo stuff out there, but what\'s lacking is the powerful sections we have discussed in this thread (eg loud brass/phrases/runs etc).

Again it boils down to wether you are doing a complete library, or one that is focussing just on what\'s MISSING from other libraries.

I suppose, however, the question then rises about wether the other solo libraries available to us would sound coherent with your new brass section.

But, personally, I slightly favor just having a library that focusses on what we\'ve talked about: spend more time on that,instead of re-hashing familiar territory with new solo instrument multisamples, which I am sure would take up a lot of time indeed.

How about this: Ensembles FIRST, then a solo upgrade LATER.

http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

[This message has been edited by Robert Kral (edited 04-27-2001).]

[Aaron Levitz]

Jumping back to the issue of temperment for a moment (\"altered\" vs. equal), compatibility with other libraries will probably dictate that you stick with equal temperment.

Personally, I don\'t think alternate tunings should be the responsibility of the sample designer. If Nemesys were to add some tuning flexibility as a feature in the next Giga version, that would give you the power you describe without rendering the rest of your collection obsolete.

This might come at the expense of realism, however, throwing out the subtle purity of resonance in a chromatically sampled instrument. The tradeoff seems like it would be relatively minor, but there\'s no way to evaluate that without actually hearing it.

I wrote a choral piece some time ago which used a 24 note scale. As you can imagine, it was as hard to listen to as it had been to write. Whatever. I bring this up only to illustrate that there are more than two tuning conventions. Harry Partch used to write percussive pieces for custom-built instruments based on a 43-tone subdivision of the octave. I can\'t imagine anyone wanting to orchestrate these works, but it wouldn\'t be hard to do in Gigastudio if the tuning control was a little more open.

Sorry to veer so far off topic. I\'ll stop now. But I do want to add this:

Having downloaded Maarten Spruijt\'s recordings and listened to them a thousand times over, I have great faith in his understanding of what an orchestral library should be. The most useful sample libraries are those developed by composers to fill their own needs, so I\'m very excited to see this particular work in development.

[Maarten Spruijt]

Thanks Aaron...

[Jamieh]

I agree with Robert: Ensembles FIRST, solo LATER.

[Ewen]

I second that...

[Simon Ravn]

... and I 3rd that....

[Chadwick]

I fourth it....

[Jamesmcwilliams]

Are there going to be any goldenthal \"shrills\"?

You know how goldenthal loves his high pitch shrills. Gimme shrills!


------------------
www.mp3.com/jamesmcwilliams (\"http://www.mp3.com/jamesmcwilliams\")

[SteveHanlon]

Could you include solo brass kazoos.

i don\'t like Kazoo sections because if I play major 13th chords then that\'s 13x3 kazoo players. You can imagine the pop and crackle you\'ll hear from Giga.

Thanks in advance.

[Maarten Spruijt]

OK then I\'ll fifth that!
We have found the players for our TEST sampling session. Hopefully we can start recording in a few weeks.
You\'ll hear the results when we\'re finished.

[Simon Ravn]

BTW we were discussing the size of the sections earlier in this thread. I just reda that the London Symphony Orch. are going to record a new score for an animated feature (I don´t remember which) that includes 16 french horns.... so 6 or 8 people pr. line is not impossible http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

[gigaDiga]

great to hear about this library.
please don\'t shoot me down in flames if I\'m a complete idiot, but I was thinking....

What if you sampled the note of a solo trumpeter standing in an ensemble. Then, after, sampled the rest of the ensemble playing that note from the same mike/s. Surely then you could just mix in or out the rest of the ensemble from the point of view of that one soloist. If you did this with three different solo trumpeters standing in different positions within the ensemble wouldn\'t it be possible to blend the three soloists into an ensemble sound.

I apologise if I\'m talking out of my armpit, I really don\'t know what I\'m doing when it comes to orchestral stuff but the thought just struck me as suggestable.

best of luck,

gigaDiga http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

[Maarten Spruijt]

I posted something about this topic earlier on this thread. Please see for yourself.

Maarten Spruijt
( http://www.maartenspruijt.com (\"http://www.maartenspruijt.com\") )

[Robert Kral]

It\'s been a while (admittedly short) since we heard any nws on this project. How are the test trumpets coming along?

[Maarten Spruijt]

We\'ve got the players.
Recording sessions for our test sampling phase will start end june.
Editing and programming will take part begin july, followed by some demos.

------------------
( http://mspruijt.ontheweb.nl (\"http://mspruijt.ontheweb.nl\") )
ICQ: 37834976

[Maarten Spruijt]

Robert (Kral), could you please contact me by e-mail (or ICQ)? I would like to ask you a question, but your existing e-mail address doesn\'t seem to work anymore...

Maarten Spruijt

[Tcsmusic]

I know an engineer who records Strings and Brass all the time. Stuff he has recorded has won several awards. If you are interested in contacting him. I can send you his Email address.I worked with him all the time and he is by far one of the best in the business.And a pretty nice guy. Unlike some of the others I have been around.Let me know.


<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by mspruijt:
I could really use some professional advise on good, professional recording techniques for (brass in a) orchestra. As we will be taking dry and wet recordings at once, writing to multitrack, I was thinking about the following setups:

Wet: an XY pair of (Senheiser) mics placed above the conductor\'s location

Dry: an MS setup of mics 2 or 3 metres from the brass section.

Please comment...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Maarten Spruijt]

Sounds interesting, Tcsmusic!
I\'d really like that e-mail address, then...

[tomhartman]

It would be great if you could do 6 French Horns in unison as well, in that this is a common configuration in film orchestras...very heroic.

I\'m all for the ensembles. Everything out there in ensembles that I\'ve worked with sounds like an organ when you score it. PLEASE don\'t stretch the samples.

Great to hear you\'re taking input on this....

[Tcsmusic]

Hi,
What is going on with the Brass sample CD library? I am ready to buy.Who do I send my money to?
Thanks Tim

[Simon Ravn]

Easy now, the library has not been recorded or anything yet as far as I know. Martijn was going to do some testing here in june/july on the trumpets and then decide what to do. Creating such an ambitious library is no mean feat, nothing you do in a few weeks, as I am sure Gary can tell you, currently finishing up GigaStrings http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

[Tcsmusic]

Please let me know when there are some Demos availible. My money is burning a hole in my pocket and I also waiting on the GigaStrings to.
Tim

[BeSquare]

I also vote for bass bones..they can really add to the mix

[Maarten Spruijt]

Robert (Kral), could you please contact me by e-mail (or ICQ)? I would like to ask you a question, but your existing e-mail address doesn\'t seem to work anymore...

Maarten Spruijt

[Robert Kral]

What\'s your email address?!

I\'ve been \"out of town\" for quite a long time and have only just read your request.

[Adrian H]

If you want to get that film score brass sound, then why not record the very same people who play it. John Williams and Zimmer always use pretty much the same brass section. I know the trumpeters, they are:

Derek Watkins (Lead player - has played on all Star Wars films, all James Bond films and Gladiator, to name but a few)

Maurice Murphy (He\'s now close to 70 years old, but is still co-principal trumpet of the London Symphony Orchestra - has played on more film soundtracks than you\'ve had hot dinners!)

Jim Watson (Plays on just about every blockbuster film - Is also the trumpet player on the Dallas theme tune!)

Rod Franks (Principal Trumpet LSO)

John Barclay (Another Great Player)


Record these guys together. Mic them up from a reasonable distance so as to let the space broaden out and resonate the sound, and hey presto you have a brass section!

[Simon Ravn]

Yeah and I bet it\'ll be cheap bringing those guys together....

[Thomas_J]

...not to mention impossible. They will never let themselves be sampled. Besides there are trumpet players all over the world that play just as good, perhaps even better. Really, it is all about the recording technique. Halls, mics and their distance. Far too many sample developers mic their instruments too close. Some like that, but you\'ll never get that \"film music\" sound.
We still need a good brass library. What\'s up with Dan Dean? wasn\'t he supposed to announce the opening of his site this week?
Looking forward to that...

Thomas

[tomhartman]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Thomas_J:
...not to mention impossible. They will never let themselves be sampled. Besides there are trumpet players all over the world that play just as good, perhaps even better. Really, it is all about the recording technique. Halls, mics and their distance. Far too many sample developers mic their instruments too close. Some like that, but you\'ll never get that \"film music\" sound.
We still need a good brass library. What\'s up with Dan Dean? wasn\'t he supposed to announce the opening of his site this week?
Looking forward to that...

Thomas<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thomas, you are right on. Everything is miked to close. That\'s what I hear in Gary\'s mp3s as well, and especially in harp samples. When you a harp gliss in a William\'s piece it\'s from overhead mics at a distance...all the harp samples sound like the mic is 3 feet away....maybe.

[Haydn]

I\'ve got many pictures of recording sessions for movie scores and the mikes are right on top of the sections. The final product sounds like they were recorded in a hall, not a studio. This is were the proper use of reverb comes in.

[IOComposer]

Maarten,
Your posts display a bit of naivete about this process. I don\'t think you realize what you\'re taking on here. I know because I\'ve done it. What started out as a little side project turned into 6 months of arduous, full time work. The result is good for my purposes, but would (and has been) be ripped apart as a commercial release. Have you ever done a professional sample library before? Have you ever sampled orchestral brass before? Have you ever engineered a recording session of orchestral brass? Have you ever played a brass instrument? Don\'t think because there is a need for this library that you will instinctually be able to grab the brass ring (so to speak). There is a reason why the brass section is the last frontier for sample libraries. Do you think Sziedlecek/Miroslav/Nick Phoenix are just a bunch of hacks who just didn\'t do it right? I\'ve got news for you: I doubt you will be able to pull this off, but I look forward to being proven wrong.
-J

[mspruijt]

info@maartenspruijt.com

[Maarten Spruijt]

<<Your posts display a bit of naivete about this process.>> - IOComposer

IOComposer, your post is a little insulting, don\'t you think? I know what you\'re trying to say, and thanks for sharing, but there are other ways to tell a person!

I am NOT naive - I know this is an enormous, difficult and time consuming project. And for your knowledge, I am NOT driven by any commercial aspects; I am doing this in the first place because I want good, MUSICAL brass samples and there are some golden sampling tips and tricks never been used before that have to be tried (I\'m talking about the custom brass samples of Thomas).

There will be a lot of experimenting with player section and mic setup, wet/dry mixing and time consuming during the test recording in september.

Maarten Spruijt

------------------
( www.maartenspruijt.com (\"http://www.maartenspruijt.com\") )
ICQ: 37834976

[wazoo]

Cheers to you Maarten!

I can\'t think of any great art that hasn\'t come from an artist who wasn\'t first told that he/she couldn\'t do it. If your vision is sincere and comes from a deeper space then it will be self evident in your masterpiece.

Go for it.

[IOComposer]

Oh! I didn\'t mean to be insulting! Sorry about that; I should have worded that better. My point is that I think that brass is the toughest thing to sample, as exemplified ad nauseum in Thomas\' post. Like I said, I\'m enthusiastically awaiting to be proven wrong in my skepticism. I wish you the best of luck, and if it turns out well, I\'ll be waiting on your doorstep with cash in hand http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif
-J