Drum kit Madness [Archive] - Northern Sound Source

Cool7s_Dad

04-09-2001, 03:45 PM

Does anyone really think Nick is looking for a good drum library? He uses this tactic to set us up for his free ads all the time. This is a man who claimed he would never post here again. But I\'m glad he did it because it gives me the perfect excuse you rag on all of you!

Then there\'s the shameful way everyone within earshot of this forum who has ever put a mic to a drum responded with all their chestbeating. *Ten* (maybe more) out of 14 responses to this thread come from sound designers. Pahleeze. Do you think that Mr. Phoenix has never heard of your libraries? Do you think I would believe you if you said as much?

A meaningful discussion is not one that\'s filled with sales pitches from sample hucksters. Yes, it is nice to have legitimate questions from real users answered by the designers themselves (in my business, we call this *customer service*). It\'s nice of you to offer beta programs and ask for constructive feedback. But meaningful, objective, discussion comes from experienced *users*, not salespeople.

Look, most of us know about all your sound libraries. Many of them are very good. Most (with the exception of Worra\'s wares), however, are not worth half what you\'re charging. The gravy train is pulling into the station guys. Lap it up while you still can. Your products are becoming commodities, and your continued denial, as expressed in your pricing structures (Worra is again exempted), is going to bite you in the derrier.

It\'s time for a new business model for the lot of you. How about this one: Put your sounds on-line and let people purchase them sample by sample for a buck or two (or less) apiece. Offer volume discounts for people who purchase a quantity of samples. Nothing is more frustrating than spending $200, or $300, or even $600 (Nick), on a sample library only to find it packed largely with sounds that are unusable or irrelevant to the task at hand. There\'s no warranty, there\'s no guarantee. There\'s no recourse for the end user at all.

If you don\'t do this, someone else will. You guys are locking yourselves out of a much larger market with the way you do business. And you\'re driving an ever growing black market/piracy scene. The genie\'s outta the bottle. When you ship that CD, some schmuck is going to copy the crap out of it and distribute it. Then some other schmuck is gonna upload it to the newsgroups or their pirate ftp sites for free.

The questions you have to ask yourselves, as this market grows way beyond the professional studios that created this business model, is: Do I want to sell 200 copies for $625, or do I want to sell 20,000 copies for $62.50? Do I want to feed the black/pirate market, or do I want to undercut that?

It\'s your choice. In the mean time, please stop bombarding us with your opportunistic ads. Soliciting feedback is fine. Even a nice sig line relating to your business is within the norms. But this shameless display is beneath you all.

Peace,
Tim
http://www.elithic.com (\"http://www.elithic.com\")

donnie

04-09-2001, 04:07 PM

Tim,

I have to admit I\'m a little confused about the anger in your post.

People like myself and Sean (DS Soundware) are not on here to sell our libraries. When we post something about our libraries it\'s to ask suggestions from users about what they would like to see. For example you can look at or latest post right below this one for clarification.

This to me is a wonderful way for the end user to give his or her feedback before a product is produced. Imagine if Mackie came on here and said \"Hey! we\'re going to build a brand new digital mixer\", \"does anyone have any input?\". Man, wouldn\'t that be great!?

On pricing...again I can only speak for my own company but I think that our libraries are very reasonbly priced ($299 for 4 cd\'s for example). I don\'t know if you have ever put a sample library together but a considerble amount of money goes into it. Piracy, as you said, IS a major problem and yes it hurts us all. However threatning sample producers with premonitions of more of this in the future is probably not the answer.

I agree with you on some things like when someone only pops by the forums when they can plug their libraries or post a quick link to demos. However there are several producers on here who do not operate that way and just wish there would have been a little better distinction between the two.

Sincerely,

Donnie
(see I don\'t even post a link to my site either http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif )

algae

04-09-2001, 04:08 PM

As painful as that last post sounds I happen to agree with his point on pricing vs. volume. I personally would be buying almost all libraries available at prices like worra\'s. Suit yourselves, but don\'t dismiss cool7\'smpost as just a rant.

Chris Beck

04-09-2001, 06:18 PM

Tim,

You do raise a good point re: pricing, and that\'s certainly worth discussing here.

But your singling out Nick is baffling to me. Could you show me where he engaged in self-promotion? Do you mean in other threads? It\'s certainly not in this one. He merely started a thread by posting his dissatisfaction with the vast majority of drum libraries out there.

Donnie\'s posts seem to be in good faith as well, even if he does tend to get a little defensive... \"what, US use OUTSIDE engineers?!?! How ABSURD!\" http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif Donnie once took a leave of absence from these forums; maybe you mean him, not Nick. Either way, I like having these developers on the forums, and they can do a little self-promotion if they\'re serious about getting our (us = USERS) input.

- Chris

P.S. Donnie, I still think a toy drum set is a good idea. And maybe a \"kitchen sink\" kit made up of goofy found sounds.

P.P.S. One more suggestion... try to be somewhat efficient in your use of samples. I really don\'t want to allocate 10 GB on my HD for just drum kits.

[This message has been edited by Chris Beck (edited 04-09-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Chris Beck (edited 04-09-2001).]

Nick Phoenix

04-09-2001, 08:31 PM

Tim,
You bring up some interesting points, but you should know something. Most of what I am doing on this forum, has nothing to do with my libraries. I have grown to genuinely like and value this forum (as just another sample crazed composer). I started this topic, because I am looking for info about new drum libraries and am hoping for something better or more to my personal taste. I don\'t plan to release a drum library because I don\'t have enough experience to do it well. I think that alot of good info was exchanged here and the new DS library will probably benefit from it. As a sound developer, I value this forum as well, but not really as a sales tool ( the user base is very small ). Input from this forum helped to make Rare Instruments great. Also, developing a library can be somewhat lonely and devoid of encouragement. The recent comments about the Rare Instruments demo made my day/week/month. By the way, one thing I have learned on this forum is that everyone has different tastes and viewpoints. To say that my brass library has a couple useful things and the rest is trash is just your opinion, but you state it like it\'s a fact. Well it ain\'t! I don\'t like some of the library, like the solo trombone sustains, for instance. But, I recently got an email from a guy who loves them.
As far as pricing goes; to think that sample developers themselves are making alot of cash in this small piracy ridden market is a bit ignorant.
You seem to have a very contemporary saddeningly American attitude which is \" I want more, give me everything, I deserve it.\" What makes you think you have a right to all of these libraries at such prices, when you have no idea how much it cost to produce a library and what the developer is making. The Sarangi session from my new library cost $2500 and it took me 3 months to find the guy.

Ben Chase

04-09-2001, 10:28 PM

On the cotrary I think just 10gb for drum sounds is a little on the small side ultimately.
I like the idea of a stereo sample but with a close or dryer mike for left and a more ambient mike on left with a large element of sympathetic ringing. This way you can dial in the required amount. And yes HEAPS of velocity multisampling. 8 splits/crossfades for velocity would be good.

esperlad

04-10-2001, 12:06 AM

I have learned a great deal from reading this thread. I can apprciate the amount of work that goes into making a sample library. But there is one point that has not been addressed: the idea of selling samples online. I really think that this is a good idea. Imagine the money that could be saved from the replication costs. The product could be obtained faster too. Does anyone know how slow the mail can be? And there is nothing you can do about mail, no matter how great your samples may be. The only delivery company that is fast and reliable is Federal Express!

Cool7s_Dad

04-10-2001, 12:20 AM

Well, well. Looks like we actually have a real discussion going on the subjects of self-promotion, piracy, and business practices. [Piracy seems like the 2000 lb. elephant in the living room around here. Everyone knows it\'s there, but no one wants to talk about it]

I\'ll attempt to respond to each of the defenses you guys have made starting with Donnie:

\"I have to admit I\'m a little confused about the anger in your post.\"

Then you\'re just not paying attention Donnie. This board is literally flooded with self-promotion from sample library producers. I know it costs a lot to put together a library, but it also costs a lot to put together a project studio. Your business model is fine for professional studios, but it\'s stifling for us nobodies who are as desperate to use our talents as you are. The biggest problem with your business model is not so much the cost, but when that is combined with the total lack of any recourse for the customer, it\'s truly caveat emptor (buyer beware). Finally, I believe this practice is what creates and fuels piracy and black market activity. Put all those things together, and it\'s enough to make a Saint angry.

\"People like myself and Sean (DS Soundware) are not on here to sell our libraries. When we post something about our libraries it\'s to ask suggestions from users about what they would like to see. For example you can look at or latest post right below this one for clarification.\"

And that\'s not a sales tool? C\'mon Donnie, I may have been born yesterday, but I stayed up late last night. Yet, it\'s not really the activity you refer to here that adds to my frustration. It\'s the absolutely shameless self-promotion that occured in this thread. If you\'ll read my initial post you\'ll see that it says: \'Yes, it is nice to have legitimate questions from real users answered by the designers themselves (in my business, we call this *customer service*). It\'s nice of you to offer beta programs and ask for constructive feedback.\' I stand by that statement (and all surrounding ones).

\"On pricing...again I can only speak for my own company but I think that our libraries are very reasonbly priced ($299 for 4 cd\'s for example).\"

Reasonably priced for A&M studios maybe (in fact, probably too resonably priced for record companies, TV stations, advertising agencies, and other mass-producing professional outfits). But for the rest of us, it\'s simply outrageous. Look, I may actually use 1/100th of your sound library on my next album. If I sell 300 copies, I\'ll be ecstatic. That would be about $3000 in gross revenue. Your sample library (which I only used a tiny fraction of) represents 10% of that. Is that really reasonable? I don\'t think so. Since I\'m the customer, my opinion counts. Yours doesn\'t.

\"I don\'t know if you have ever put a sample library together but a considerble amount of money goes into it.\"

No, I\'ve never put a sample library together Donnie. But I have put together a large number of other things that are, at the very least, far more complex and costly. Some have involved hundreds of people and millions of dollars. I\'m not a newbie to business. What I\'m trying to pound home here is that you are stepping on dollars to pick up pennies. You\'re in a completely different market than you were even a year ago. I\'m just trying to awaken you to that.

\"Piracy, as you said, IS a major problem and yes it hurts us all. However threatning sample producers with premonitions of more of this in the future is probably not the answer.\"

I\'m not threatening anyone with anything Donnie. I don\'t condone piracy. I make a living from producing my own intellectual property, so the idea of its theft is repugnant to me. However, I think you guys are exacerbating the problem with your pricing schemes. You can choose to live in denial about this, but it\'s a fact that the problem will only get worse unless you take meaningful steps to rectify it. The direct approach of investigation and prosecution will be a costly and totally ineffective one. You\'re going to have to do something else...

\"I agree with you on some things like when someone only pops by the forums when they can plug their libraries or post a quick link to demos. However there are several producers on here who do not operate that way and just wish there would have been a little better distinction between the two.\"

Again, soliciting feedback, initiating beta programs, announcing new products... these things are all appropriate, IMO. But I think you\'re all guilty of going overboard with this, and I know, with the exception of Worra, you\'re all guilty of price/package gouging. Therefore, distinctions (beyond the one I make for Bigga Giggas here) are unneccessary for the respondents in this thread.

\"Donnie
(see I don\'t even post a link to my site either)\"

No, but you did manage to include a plug for DS Soundware in the second sentence of your post. I\'d prefer the link.

Next up is Chris Beck:

\"But your singling out Nick is baffling to me. Could you show me where he engaged in self-promotion? Do you mean in other threads? It\'s certainly not in this one. He merely started a thread by posting his dissatisfaction with the vast majority of drum libraries out there.\"

One example is the \"Quantum Leap Guitars vs. Hans Zimmer Guitars\" thread that Nick started some time last summer. That was when he announced he would never post here again after getting pretty darn ugly with some of the other posters and some of his competitors. But there have been numerous other instances. Nick is probably the most talented sample library producer out there. I have yet to hear the equal of QLG or QLB. Certainly QLB is world reknowned and very highly respected by professionals and amateurs alike. But he has a pretty nasty arrogant streak to go with it. If you haven\'t seen it, then I don\'t blame you for your puzzlement. Let\'s hope you never do see it.

And now, to Nick: I mean what I said. Your talent is immense. And at times, your ego dwarfs it. If you really started this thread as nothing more than \"just another sample crazed composer\" then I am truly sorry. But you\'ll excuse me if I\'m skeptical. I strongly suspect that we\'ll be back here in another year or so talking about Quantum Leap Drums (which wouldn\'t be a bad thing, given your talents).

\"As a sound developer, I value this forum as well, but not really as a sales tool ( the user base is very small ).\"

Ahem... pardon my skepticism again, but a hit count of 3.8 million isn\'t very indicative of a small user base. With any active forum like this, there exists a far larger percentage of lurkers than posters. If you\'re really *not* using it as a sales tool then you\'re of below average intelligence. I find it hard to believe that someone of your talent is that stupid. It\'s not the use of it as a sales tool I object to. It\'s the *incessant* use of it as a sales tool that\'s bothersome.

\"Input from this forum helped to make Rare Instruments great.\"

LOL. Your talent is exceeded only by your modesty Nick.

\"Also, developing a library can be somewhat lonely and devoid of encouragement. The recent comments about the Rare Instruments demo made my day/week/month.\"

I\'ll give you that one. And I\'ll say again: You do great work. I\'m attempting here to outline a path for you that will produce *more* for your efforts, not less. More feedback, more accolades, more cash.

\"To say that my brass library has a couple useful things and the rest is trash is just your opinion, but you state it like it\'s a fact.\"

Well Nick, I didn\'t say that at all. And no, it\'s not my opinion. It\'s only your opinion of my opinion. It *is* a fact, though, that most of the samples on the libraries I have spent more than $10,000 on in the last two years will never be used. Once again, you take this far too personally. Just because a set of trumpet falls are unusable or inappropriate for the style of music I write doesn\'t make them trash. It does, however, make them useless to me, and therefore a waste of my hard-earned dollars. And believe it or not, I have purchased some pretty crappy sample libraries. They do exist.

Look, when I need transportation, I don\'t go out and buy a Boeing 747 when all I need is a Volkswagen (the Boeing 747 is a very fine airplane... it just wouldn\'t fit very well in my driveway... and I don\'t think the neighbors would appreciate it too much).

The music industry, both for insiders and outsiders, has been operating this way for years. Now that the age of Napster and Gnutella are upon us, the record industry is squealing like a pig stuck on a nail. They just can\'t fathom the idea of people buying only the songs they like instead of buying an entire album. This situation is no different.

\"As far as pricing goes; to think that sample developers themselves are making alot of cash in this small piracy ridden market is a bit ignorant.\"

When you find someone who thinks that then you can call them a bit ignorant. I never said anything of the sort. Quite the contrary, it\'s your pricing structure that\'s standing in the way of your financial success and driving the piracy. You have the talent. You have the work ethic. You have the equipment and the knowhow. You just don\'t yet have the business and marketing savvy to get it done.

\"You seem to have a very contemporary saddeningly American attitude which is \'I want more, give me everything, I deserve it.\'\"

You\'re just not listening then Nick (no great surprise there). I actually want *less* (a good case of \'less is more.\') What I want is fairness. That means I pay a fair price for what I use. I want two, maybe three, great French Horn multi-samples. Not 5 disks full of samples I\'ll never use (and not because they\'re not great samples). BTW, I do resent the slam at Americans. They are, by and large, an honest, hard-working lot. Quite frankly, most of the piracy and porn that laces the internet is housed on server farms in other countries (and California... which almost qualifies as another country).

\"What makes you think you have a right to all of these libraries at such prices, when you have no idea how much it cost to produce a library and what the developer is making.\"

Your statement displays all sorts of assumptions about me that aren\'t true and coveys the sort of ignorance that you accused me of. First of all, as I\'ve said about a dozen times now, I don\'t want every library ever made. In fact, I don\'t even want at least 90% of every library I have.

\"The Sarangi session from my new library cost $2500 and it took me 3 months to find the guy.\"

If I need a great Sarangi sample, I\'ll be willing to pay more for it than a French Horn sample because it\'s a rarer commodity. But if I don\'t need it, I\'m not really interested in subsidising its cost. That runs against every principle of fairness and market economics imaginable. What gives *you* the right to force this on me when you have no idea what I need?

I\'m the *customer* Nick. That gives me all sorts of rights. Like the right to vote with my feet and not buy the 747 you\'ve produced to replace my Volkswagen. It gives me the right to complain when I don\'t like what you\'re doing. It gives me the right to use legitimate market forces to change what I perceive to be bad business practices. Your attitude, OTOH, is not going to do you any favors in the long run.

I really do hope that you guys will get it together on this because I\'d really like to see you be far more successful. Your success will translate into a gain for everyone involved. If you plant the right seeds, a more competetive, more vibrant market will emerge. More people will be able to make music. More people will buy samples.

Think of it Nick: Instead of going on a six month death march to the release of a huge sample library, investing tens of thousands of dollars up front with any return on your investment months or even years away, you can produce samples for a single instrument and release it *immediately*. So what if it takes you three months to \"find the guy\"? Release the Sarangi when you have it. You\'ll get a ton of feedback that way. You\'ll start getting a return on your investment much sooner. And you\'ll develop a following that will flock to your web site every day to see what great new thing you\'ve done. You\'ll also have some idea of what people really want because those will be the items that sell. (You can also milk more reviews and press coverage). This is so obvious, I find it hard to believe that no one is doing it yet.

Let\'s just take the numbers on QLG for example. The retail price is $270. It contains 46 instruments. If you charged $6 for each one you\'d make an extra six bucks. Considering that it\'s probably costing you around $1 ea. to replicate the CD, you could drop the price to $5 and still come out ahead. You *could* even drop the price to $3 and go after market share. Just give your ego a rest for about five minutes and consider the business sense of this approach.

I know it\'s a lot to ask for. But one can always dream...

Peace,
Tim
http://www.elithic.com (\"http://www.elithic.com\")

Chris Beck

04-10-2001, 12:35 AM

Wow, Dad, that kinda makes sense.

I still think you\'re being a little too harsh on Donnie & Nick... but you sold me on the rest.

- Chris

donnie

04-10-2001, 01:12 AM

Tim,

Man are you like going through a rough personal time or something? I find your emails directed twoards myself and Nick to be very offensive and just plain ignorant.

Look if you don\'t like what we do fine! And your right as a customer you do have the right to say whats on your mind. Unfortunatley that right is also making you look like a cry baby.

You talk about guys coming on here just to \"plug\" there products but what do you come on here for? Well it seems to me by your present AND past posts that all you care to do is whine or jump on someone.

I have an idea why don\'t you sell your songs for $6 a piece. I can gaurentee you that as much time goes into one instrument as into a typical spot . How far would you get with that business model!? Not very!

Say what you want (and I\'m sure you will) but you are barking up the wrong tree. It\'s guys like us that are helping and not hurting (4 cds for $299).

Donnie

Nick Phoenix

04-10-2001, 02:42 AM

I\'m suprised. I kind of thought you were a loony from your earlier post. but, you make some good points and thanks for the complements. However, the northernsounds.com sight does have a very small user base. 2ndly, believe it or not, I really did begin this and many other threads as a composer ( thats actually my primary occupation, if I was a full time sound designer, I would have a new library every 2 months being the workaholic that I am ). the reason QL Brass came out OK is because of that fact, and not that I am a brilliant engineer. I am aware of the market expanding, but I am not so interested in that. The idea of big name composers using my sounds appeals to me. Does that make me an elitist, ego maniac? I don\'t know, but I want anyone to be able to have my sounds and I value your comments. I consider a complete library as a piece of art. Chopping it up into pieces diminishes the whole. People often don\'t know what they will ultimately want and to make them choose without getting to experiment with the sounds is a stifling concept. I would\'nt sell much of my new library (Rare I.) at all, if it was split up because most people have never heard of these instruments and would never buy them. However, if the reviews are good, many people will buy the library as a whole and discover instruments that they would have normally not used. The concept of splitting everything up also discourages experimentation and creativity on the part of the developer for the same reasons. The mainstream will be covered well, but the obscure will suffer. Granted, there are tons of libraries with alot of crap on them, but your solution is not the answer. In defense of the nasty egomaniac charges- Its true that I lost my mind a bit when I finished the brass library last year and responded to negative posts with outrage. Sorry, I was new to the forum and got really defensive. The \"American\" comment refers to a sickening trend in this country (which I love), which disturbs me. I don\'t have time to write more right now.....

Nick Phoenix

04-10-2001, 02:50 AM

By the way, if I met you in person, I probably would have punched you in the face already!

SCARBEE

04-10-2001, 05:27 AM

Why all these bad vibes? I don\'t get it...
I think Nick\'s post is very relevant: I hardly know any composers who are NOT looking for better drum libraries! And about self promoting - do we have to feel bad about telling that our CD\'s are shipping, new demoes etc.? Off course we must use these forums to tell about that - it would be stupid not too with the \"hits\" on these forums\". Why not just skip post like this? You don\'t have to read them.

And about prizing: Just 2 years ago our libraries would have cost the tripple or more. Prizes are really low and you have to sell LOTS of CD\'s to make a living from this.

Thomas

Ian Stewart Cairns

04-10-2001, 06:07 AM

Tim,

A meaningful discussion is not one that\'s filled with sales pitches from sample hucksters.

I think you misspelt \"A meaningful discussion is not one that\'s filled with unsubstantiated allegations, ad hominem attacks and excessive verbosity.\"

Blah, blah...meaningful, objective, discussion comes from experienced *users*, not salespeople.

How about restating the term \"salespeople\" as \"original content creators\". Would this not also be accurate? Does that make you feel any better?

Look, most of us know about all your sound libraries. Many of them are very good. Most (with the exception of Worra\'s wares), however, are not worth half what you\'re charging.

Please quantify your perception of value. Don\'t just spout off your opinion - back it up with facts, figures, hypotheses and well-constructed arguments. Your bald statement is worthless as it stands, it is nothing more than an incitement to disagree.

It\'s time for a new business model for the lot of you. How about this one: Put your sounds on-line and let people purchase them sample by sample for a buck or two (or less) apiece. Offer volume discounts for people who purchase a quantity of samples. Nothing is more frustrating than spending $200, or $300, or even $600 (Nick), on a sample library only to find it packed largely with sounds that are unusable or irrelevant to the task at hand. There\'s no warranty, there\'s no guarantee. There\'s no recourse for the end user at all.

I have some sympathy with your ideas relating to individual sample and bulk discount \'leasing\' here. But you haven\'t thought it through yet. What about those who don\'t have internet access? What about those who prefer the physical media of CD or DVD? What about your own backup costs? What about online security? What about the costs involved in setting up such schemes? What about the extra staff that need to be employed to supervise e-stores? What about the web design costs? What about, what about... Have you considered any of these variables (and there are many more such as the potential for vastly increased piracy) in your equation? I’m not saying it wouldn’t fly, just that flapping your arms isn’t enough.

Regarding your assertion that customer service levels are unacceptable... well, I simply don\'t know whether this is an accurate assessment of the current state of affairs. If you are indeed correct, then I wholeheartedly agree that something needs to be done to assuage consumer concerns, if what you assert is incorrect, is only partly correct or is wittingly or unwittingly misleading, then sort out the fact from the fiction and repost with details (as you could have done in this instance).

Do I want to sell 200 copies for $625, or do I want to sell 20,000 copies for $62.50? Do I want to feed the black/pirate market, or do I want to undercut that?

Before handing out any more of your gratuitous advice, do yourself a favour and pick up a copy of \'Macro and Micro Economics for Dummies\'.

Tim, as someone once remarked \'it ain\'t what you do, it\'s the way that you do it\'. We all know that feeling of righteous indignation which swells up inside us, eventually bursts and compels us to \'take a stance for the truth\'. More power to you for standing up for what you believe to be true. But pay attention: that is all it amounts to - your belief! It is absolutely NOT the ‘truth’ - it is your take on the \'truth\'! Epistemic virtue is person-relative - you are a prisoner of your perceptions, just as I am of mine. Occasionally, it pays to bear that in mind.

If you want your concerns to be taken seriously then address the targets of your complaints with a cautious, respectful attitude. Flying off the handle may feel good in the moment (actually sometimes it feels GREAT in the moment, I\'m sure most of us can testify to that http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/grin.gif), but, usually the net result is that you hurt the feelings of other people, your own emotional equilibrium is unbalanced, you isolate yourself from the wider community, and eventually the pressure builds up until you feel compelled to apologise (or recant some of your vim and vigour). It\'s a vicious circle. (Of course some people don\'t ever complete the circle - but often these poor souls end up as psychologically distressed individuals or as war mongerers.)

Ian

[This message has been edited by Ian Stewart Cairns (edited 04-10-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Ian Stewart Cairns (edited 04-10-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Ian Stewart Cairns (edited 04-10-2001).]

SteveHanlon

04-10-2001, 06:49 AM

Cool_7,

I think you\'re looking for Sampleheads or Sonic Implants.
They sell their stuff by the sample.
I personnally prefer to get the whole CD because as Nick said it forces me to try something new. I like the unexpected when I buy the sample CD\'s.
I didn\'t buy Donnie\'s Orchestral percussion for the ratchet sound...but ****, after I heard it, I just got to use it. And if I don\'t use it immediately, I know I got one...so when the opportunity comes, bam!

If you guys can give me good sounds, that means I can make music that I like and others like...bottom line.

And if these CD\'s are too expensive then use soundfonts. They\'re cheap!

check out www.dhamma.org (\"http://www.dhamma.org\")
It\'s vipassana meditation. It helps.

Cool7s_Dad

04-10-2001, 03:07 PM

I think you misspelt \"A meaningful discussion is not one that\'s filled with unsubstantiated allegations, ad hominem attacks and excessive verbosity.\"

You may have a point when it comes to the original purpose of Nick\'s post here. But I\'m not entirely willing to concede that yet. As far as ad hominem attacks, I think that his and Donnie\'s responses have borne those out.

How about restating the term \"salespeople\" as \"original content creators\". Would this not also be accurate?

No. If you substitute \"users\" with \"original content creators,\" perhaps.

Please quantify your perception of value.

I believe I did that with painstaking detail. It got me accused of \"excessive verbosity.\"

Don\'t just spout off your opinion - back it up with facts, figures, hypotheses and well-constructed arguments.

And be excessively verbose? Oh my.

I have some sympathy with your ideas relating to individual sample and bulk discount \'leasing\' here. But you haven\'t thought it through yet.

Yes I have.

What about those who don\'t have internet access?

Sell them a CD then. But do you really think there is any market for this stuff among people who have no internet access? How are they getting the .36 upgrade for GigaStudio?

What about those who prefer the physical media of CD or DVD?

Oh, the PT Barnum theory. Sell them a CD then. However, many, if not most, people in this market have CD burners. At less than $150 for a 4X burner, one could be purchased with the savings gained by purchasing samples through the business model I suggested.

What about your own backup costs?

15 cents for a single CDr. Having just been through a complete overhaul and reinstall of all my systems, I can tell you from experience that it\'s no fun reloading 70GB of samples from the original CDs. That\'s not really a backup solution.

I\'ve since gone with the removable drive cart solution suggested by Rip Rowan in this month\'s Point 2 Point article at prorec.com. You can get a spare 30GB IDE drive for backup purposes for a third the cost of Quantum Leap Guitars.

Even if I did go with CDr\'s for backup it would cost less than 20 bucks to backup the entire 70GB (using compression). Still, original CD\'s of software and samples are no substitute for a real backup strategy.

What about online security?

Every ISP offers secure access. Usually for no additional charge.

What about the costs involved in setting up such schemes?

There are a number of different approaches that can be taken here. Since I don\'t want to be excessively verbose I\'ll just mention the most obvious ones. It seems the best solution might be to work with . They\'re already doing this to some degree. Yahoo has some *very* inexpensive web hosting packages that come with canned scripts for shopping carts, downloading, and such. If you want to host the site yourself, SprintION offers 8mbit ul/dl speed for under $100 a month.

What about the extra staff that need to be employed to supervise e-stores?

How much extra staff do you need to receive sales receipts via email?

What about the web design costs?

Again, either work with someone who\'s already got a handle on it, like , do it yourself, or pay someone to do it. Every business has startup costs. Every business has capital investments. For my own part, I\'d be willing to help in any way I possibly could. But be warned, such things do take planning, which might require excessive verbosity from time to time http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif

What about, what about... Have you considered any of these variables

I obviously have... and then some. I\'m not ignorant. And I\'m not an idiot. Contrary to some of the ad hominem attacks that have come my way.

(and there are many more such as the potential for vastly increased piracy)

Actually, I think this business model would have the effect of decreasing piracy for a number of reasons: The reduced cost, the lack of widespread distribution of CD-based libraries, the instantaneous and targeted distribution of exactly the products people need. Please tell me why I\'m wrong.

I’m not saying it wouldn’t fly, just that flapping your arms isn’t enough.

All I can do is suggest it Ian. I can\'t do it for them. Although I\'m more than willing to help, it\'s up to the producers to make the decisions and coordinate the work.

Regarding your assertion that customer service levels are unacceptable... well, I simply don\'t know whether this is an accurate assessment of the current state of affairs.

I don\'t think that was my assertion. Although there are instances where the business model I proposed could be used to enhance customer service. For example, QLG was initially released without any pitch bend parameters on the instruments. Nick responded to this by posting instructions here on how to edit each instrument to enable that function. I would call that a marginally acceptable response. He admitted the mistake and provided details to correct it. The best possible response would have been to send out an email to every licensed owner and a new CD\'s to any who requested one. With an online model, users could simply re-download the affected samples.

The real problem lies in the fact that if I\'m unsatisfied with a library I\'ve purchased, I have no recourse. It\'s just money down the drain.

then sort out the fact from the fiction and repost with details (as you could have done in this instance).

Wouldn\'t that be \"excessively verbose?\" Didn\'t I do that in this instance? And then didn\'t you cream me with ad hominem attacks as a result?

\"Do I want to sell 200 copies for $625, or do I want to sell 20,000 copies for $62.50? Do I want to feed the black/pirate market, or do I want to undercut that?\"

Before handing out any more of your gratuitous advice, do yourself a favour and pick up a copy of \'Macro and Micro Economics for Dummies\'.

The math here is pretty clear. The driving forces behind piracy and black markets are well known. I do wish there was quantitative data that I could share with you on this. Since I do consulting for one of the largest pro-audio software vendors, I do actually have access to hard data related to market size and growth, but I\'m prevented by legal and ethical strictures from revealing it in detail, but I can tell you that this market has grown by an order of magnitude in the last five years, and it is projected that it will grow by another order of magnitude in the next five.

Tim, as someone once remarked \'it ain\'t what you do, it\'s the way that you do it\'.

You may not like the way I operate. That\'s of no concern to me. These things needed to be said. If you want to shoot the messenger, I can\'t help that. But it\'s quite obvious that this discussion has struck a chord with both the users and the providers. Things will change. Will you be there when they do?

Peace,
Tim
http://www.elithic.com (\"http://www.elithic.com\")

Jamesmcwilliams

04-10-2001, 03:29 PM

I agree, When i got some of the x-sample libary disks, i discovered instruments that i would never have used (jews harp for instance).

But i still think that perhaps there could be a option of buying seperate instruments (or perhaps a cluster of instruments 3-4 per cluster), or the whole set.

Dos

04-11-2001, 04:52 AM

I don’t want to propagate bad feelings here but I have to agree with Cool 7 because of one reply to his comments. Would I sell one copy of one song for 6 bucks a piece? Hell yes. It’s very safe to say no big name artist that signed with any label ever made that. The way things are changing it’s likely a record label as we know it won’t exist because of over priced compilations of crappie songs.
Will I spend $300 on a 4 cd set of stuff I’ll end up using 5% of ? I don’t think so. There must be another way to come up with $300 worth of sounds that I’ll actually want and will use.

gigaDiga

04-11-2001, 07:21 AM

What about something between a demo and the full blown thing?

A lot of you guys (developers) are spending bucks to create perfect libraries for people like Zimmer to use. What if I\'d like the sound of nick\'s brass but I don\'t need it mapped to every key and with every possible dimension to it? What if I don\'t like the idea of filling my hard drive with brass samples and just want some kind of looped shorter version of it, maybe even 16bit?

Developers might scream that it\'s ruining their artpieces but I can\'t afford the masterpieces like Zimmer can. Let him have the full version if he can afford it. Lets face it you\'ve made these perfect sample libraries and they\'ve got their market in the music industry. If, by simply deleting a few wav\'s here and looping a few wav\'s there, you can sell a scaled down version of that library AGAIN, but at a lower price and to the novice user, then that\'s your bonus isn\'t it?

It may be an idea worth entertaining.

peace,

gigaDiga http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

lanesp

04-11-2001, 02:12 PM

Great call Robert. This is something we have intended to include since mallets (yarn, timp, etc.) are indeed commonly used on the drum set. But, thanks for pointing this out since we left it off the above list.

Sean
DS Soundware

lanesp

04-11-2001, 02:12 PM

donnie

04-11-2001, 03:26 PM

donnie

04-11-2001, 03:28 PM

I think this is relevant to the price issue:
http://www.emu.com/online_shop/roms/siedlaczek.asp (\"http://www.emu.com/online_shop/roms/siedlaczek.asp\")

32 megabytes (not gigs) for $395.00

The Peter Siedlaczek 32 MB expansion ROM offers you some of the finest orchestral samples ever recorded from one of Europe\'s most respected sound designers. This spectacular collection brings together the finest string, brass, wind and percussion ensembles of Siedlaczek\'s legendary Advanced Orchestra library, performed in a variety of styles (i.e. vibrato, tremolo, pizzicato, con sordino, etc.).

Suddenly sample cd prices don\'t seem so outrageous now do they?

Donnie

[This message has been edited by donnie (edited 04-11-2001).]

Cool7s_Dad

04-11-2001, 09:33 PM

I think this is relevant to the price issue:

<url snipped>

32 megabytes (not gigs) for $395.00

The Peter Siedlaczek 32 MB expansion ROM... <snippage>

Suddenly sample cd prices don\'t seem so outrageous now do they?

You can still get an IBM 370 for just under a million. It has 128 kilobytes of RAM.

Peace,
Tim
http://www.elithic.com (\"http://www.elithic.com\")

donnie

04-11-2001, 10:10 PM

Ok so you have just confirmed what I\'ve been thinking all along....

Logic, no matter how obvious or simple to understand, is above your reasoning.

Donnie

[This message has been edited by donnie (edited 04-11-2001).]

Nick Phoenix

04-11-2001, 11:13 PM

I agree with Donnie. Tim, you are kind of unreasonable. I really believe that paying a few hundred dollars for a good sample library is reasonable, even if you only use a few sounds. Live players for one session would cost more than the entire library.

Cool7s_Dad

04-11-2001, 11:23 PM

Donnie:

You\'re comparing completely different technologies with that post. To call it logic is stretching it.

Sure, any sucker can go out and waste money on antiquated hardware synths and upgrades. You can buy a K2600 for $2495 at Sweetwater right now. You can get an E4 for just over $4000. This really proves nothing other than the fact that PT Barnum was right.

What this latest round of posts confirms, if anything, is that you don\'t handle criticism very well. Just ask Ryan Miglierina.

If you want to continue to live in denial, then you\'re only hurting yourself. Eventually, the market will have its way.

The idea that you can sustain this business model indefinitely is a fantasy. It\'s not even working right now. Your samples are all over the web and the Usenet. I\'ll wager you any amount of scratch you care to name that there are an order of magnitude more clandestine copies around the world than there are legit ones.

The question is, what are you gonna do about it? *Logic* dictates that you have but a few options:

1) Slash and burn - spend all your money investigating and litigating with no promise of any real effect or recompense.

2) Get Nemesys to adopt a copy protection scheme. The crackers will bust it in about five minutes.

3) Respond to the market and make pirating a waste of time. But this actually makes sense so it\'s right out.

4) Do nothing.

Looks like you\'re insistent on adopting option #4... until reason overcomes ego.

Peace,
Tim
http://www.elithic.com (\"http://www.elithic.com\")

donnie

04-11-2001, 11:38 PM

At this point I don\'t know whether to feel sorry for you or just conceede that you really are an idiot....

First of all they are not two different technologies. Both sample cd\'s and sound modules fill the same need-sample playback. Whether it be from a module or a sample cd it\'s the same thing.

Secondly, I can handle critism just fine. Ryan will even tell you that my past problems with him had nothing to do with his review which was 99% positive anyway. Trying (unsuccessfully) to land that blow tells me that you don\'t pay attention.

For example, you are jumping up and down about the great prices that Bigga Giggas has (and they are great prices BTW) but look at this. There latest cd \'s are $129 and $99 for one cd. Our percussion library is $299 which comes out to $74.75 a disc! So why are you still complaining? Just address that!!

You know I don\'t think price has anything to do with any of this (I\'ve just taken that arguement away from you). Nick, I think we just have to realize that no matter what there\'s always going to be someone out who\'s not happy no matter what. I\'ll be you if I were selling our cd\'s for a buck you would cry because you had to pay for shipping!

Donnie

[This message has been edited by donnie (edited 04-12-2001).]

Robert Kral

04-11-2001, 11:56 PM

Donnie: getting back to suggestions for your new library.....

How about also including soft mallet use of the drum kit? Not something you would use too much in rock and roll etc, but I went to a stage play recently and the drummer used soft mallets most of the way through, and treated the drumkit orchestrally. I was blown away by how good it was.

The most obvious useful example is cymbal rolls and swells, but the use of the soft mallet pounding away and rolling on the toms and floor toms can be really powerful and effective.

Rob.

gigaDiga

04-12-2001, 04:42 AM

Will you big boys stop fighting a minute.

Take this price question on a serious note for a second. Why don\'t you guys market streamlined pint-sized versions of your libraries? After all we can buy the whole god-damn GigasamplerLE for under a hundred bucks. Are you seriously pretending that your Sample CD\'s take more ingenuity and man hours than the actual program that uses them!

What about OrchestraPercussionLE or GigaBrassLE?! It\'s a serious question and not at all demonstrative. Why not? What have you got to lose. If somebody\'s a real perfectionist and they\'ve got the dosh they\'ll always buy the full version. It works the same in software... why do you think I brought GigaStudio160?

Unfortunately I think that what Cool7sdad is pointing out is the fact that, unbeknownst to you developers, you have actually stepped into completely new territory. No you are not making sampleCD\'s, those are for the likes of AKAI, Roland, EMU, Ensoniq, etc. You are making software.

Siedlaczek\'s little memory implant is so expensive for two reasons...
1) It\'s the samples and the hardware in one
2) Like a dongle it cannot be copied
This means that Siedlaczek can charge what the hell he want\'s for it and we have to pay. As far as Akai, Roland, etc CD\'s... until recently they were not useable on computers so you had to actually own the hardware to use them. This meant that there was a limited need for them and copying them had to be done via that specialist hardware.

Your CD\'s are COMPLETELY different. Excluding remote parts of Borneo, everyone has a computer nowdays. And anyone with more than $80 in their pocket can purchase GigasamplerLE. Indeed, ignoring the fact that pirate copies of Gigasampler are kicking around for free, how long do you think it\'ll be before you see the original copy of GigasamplerLE given away free on the front cover CD of some music magazine. Hey it\'s already given away with various hardware/software bundles.

With this in mind you should realise that the demand for Gig Sample CD\'s is gonna be HUGE. We\'re talking an unofficial user base of millions. This is something no other sample format, save soundfonts, has had to deal with. And when was the last time you saw a soundfont cd selling for over $290?

You are making software and your software is being copied because people don\'t understand why, after spending only about $90 on the program, they\'ve got to spend $250+ on files for it. Produce a pint sized version of your CD\'s for $60 and that logic vanishes.

I could say this is the solution but, unfortunately I think you\'re really looking for some hardcore copy protection. You know it\'ll be cracked but atleast it\'ll stop those people who are just casually copying your cd\'s.

Most people with some moral conscience would find it very hard to copy Worra\'s cd\'s because they\'re so reasonably priced in the first place. Also the Trachtman Piano is brilliantly priced.

just trying to be helpful,

gigaDiga http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

p.s. I personally understand that getting a GigaStudio PC together has cost me a couple of grand and that, in proportion to that your Cd\'s are cheap. But you should prepare yourself for the shock that many people, with built-in soundblaster cards and a freebie copy of GigasamplerLE, think your just trying to con them out of big bucks. These are your copiers.

Michiel Post

04-12-2001, 06:49 AM

Hi GigaDiga,
You said:
\'Produce a pint sized version of your CD\'s for $60 ... \'

I do feel for friendly-priced LE-versions of my products. They could serve as an appetizer, when you get to hear what it sounds like, you could consider buying the whole cd. But...
I wonder how we could make a small version of a 1 GB sized file, without making a hudge effort and presenting an inferior product.
Michiel Post

lanesp

04-12-2001, 08:28 AM

WOW!!!

44 posts in this thread. Keep it up guys and we\'ll pass Garritan\'s 50 posts! Watch out Gary we\'re on your heels. I guess this will be 45, Wooohooo!!!!

Sean

ps- sorry I had to edit this, I misspelled \"on\".

[This message has been edited by lanesp (edited 04-12-2001).]

gigaDiga

04-12-2001, 09:26 AM

Hi Michiel

I don\'t know your particular CD\'s but it strikes me that, if you were to produce a piano for an Akai sampler, you\'d have a max headroom of about 128mb. Some compromises would mean more hard work, i.e. making samples loop, but other compromises would be really easy....

1) Make the samples mono.
2) Use one or two samples an octave.
3) 16bit samples.
4) If you\'ve got 8 dimensions only use 1 or 2.
5) If you\'ve got 8 velocity splits only use 1 or 2.
6) If you\'ve got 8 different versions of an instrument only include 2 or 3.

Each of these activities involves really easy changes. If you fear that people will buy your library only for the amazingly expressive saxaphone and all the other sackbutts and susaphones are not gonna sell then really trim down the expressivity of the LE saxaphone even more than the rest. If people are real perfectionists they can spend the money to get perfection.

Now others out there might throw up your arms in disgust... who\'d want inferior sample cd\'s? But what about a trade up idea?. If I buy GigasamplerLE I can trade up to full Gigasampler at a later date for a cheaper price. The same would work for sampleCD\'s. Indeed producers and composers who really want new brass samples could buy in a collection of LE brass cd\'s, choose which one they like working with, and then upgrade.

This would also be a bonus for you developers because making the LE versions is actually easier than making the full versions. This would mean that you could work to release an LE version a good few months before your full version was due out. The revenue\'s from the LE versions would immediately start coming in and start helping you out financially. Who knows, you might get so much revenue from your LE sales that you can release the full version at a reduced price.

Forgive me if I\'m wrong but it makes perfect sense to me.

hope that helps,

gigaDiga http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

p.s. I infer by Sean\'s \"wow\" mail that this is still going completely over his head and he\'d rather just treat it all like some silly joke. It\'s not a joke, it\'s not even criticism, it\'s just some good old plain solid advice of how you guys might combat the ever growing evil of piracy and sell more CD\'s instead.

Michiel Post

04-12-2001, 10:39 AM

Hi GigaDiga
You make a good point, I really mean that. I just didn\'t realize people would be interested in a 1-layer, mono, 1 dimensional instrument library.

I\'m making piano, organ, accordion, and harpsichord sample cd\'s (that you will find at Worra\'s place.

Fighting piracy and at the same time helping people to find products that fit their budgets seems a reasonable good idea. Not that I expect that this would really increase the number of sold cd\'s in giant leaps...
Michiel Post

Chris Beck

04-12-2001, 01:27 PM

Sean -

Good thing you didn\'t misspell \"heal\" http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

(Don\'t quit your day job)

- Chris

lanesp

04-12-2001, 02:03 PM

Thanks Chris,

If you\'re calling me a \"heal\", I think it\'s spelled \"h-e-e-l\". Hope I didn\'t misspell your address on that Fed Ex vibe shipment you needed.

gigadiga - thanks for the advice but, your right, it\'s probably over my head. Really only one response comes to mind when reading your posts . . . \"Who\'s the greatest wrestler in the world and why am I?\". Lawler 1977.
http://www.kinglawler.com/oldking1.wmv (\"http://www.kinglawler.com/oldking1.wmv\")

Sean

lanesp

04-12-2001, 02:05 PM

Oh yeah! 50 baby, the big FIVE O . . .

Wooooo!!!!

Nick Phoenix

04-12-2001, 03:40 PM

Quantum leap Drum Kits will be shipping next week. Tim, you were right all along. By the way, it is a 48 bit 192 sample rate library and ships on a Vega microchip. The library will be free, but when you die you must mail a box of oranges to the Dali Lama.

[This message has been edited by Nick Phoenix (edited 04-12-2001).]

lanesp

04-12-2001, 03:58 PM

Nick,

Can I get just the bottom hi-hat? I am willing to pay up to, say $5 including shipping.

Sean

Ian Stewart Cairns

04-12-2001, 06:04 PM

Tim,

If you have REALLY thought this out as clearly as you maintain you have, what is to stop you from implementing your own great ideas? How about, instead of complaining about the way others do business, you go in to competition with them? Isn’t that the appropriate arena for this \"battle of ideas\"? If your idea is the stronger then presumably it will triumph in the marketplace, no? You are clearly distraught by the pain these “salesmen” and “Hawkers” bring to your life, so why not fight back, take a stand, claim the moral high ground. The question is: are you prepared to walk the talk, or will you leave that to others?

The math here is pretty clear.

No it isn’t. Spell it out for all of us. Better still, don’t bother (or do it on your new company’s website).

The driving forces behind piracy and black markets are well known.

No they are not. That would to assume a profound understanding of human nature which we do not possess. What we have are economic models. The two are emphatically not the same.

I do wish there was quantitative data that I could share with you on this. Since I do consulting for one of the largest pro-audio software vendors, I do actually have access to hard data related to market size and growth, but I\'m prevented by legal and ethical strictures from revealing it in detail, but I can tell you that this market has grown by an order of magnitude in the last five years, and it is projected that it will grow by another order of magnitude in the next five.

So, take advantage of it. What are you waiting for? See you in five years. If you succeed, I will be more than happy to become one of your customers.

But it\'s quite obvious that this discussion has struck a chord with both the users and the providers.

No, all your narcissistic bellyaching has accomplished is to ensure that few (if any) of the “providers” who read this list will do business with your nascent company.

Things will change. Will you be there when they do?

Gee, that’s profound. The thing is Tim, every second of every day you are surrounded by change. It is inevitable. Your alleged prescience may be undermined by something none of us could predict. Trust me, events have a habit of undermining even the greatest of predictions.

Look Tim, in spite of the facetiousness and superciliousness of much of my response (I am provoked in to this when someone sets himself up as one of society’s “better angels”) I am fundamentally in agreement with your underlying philosophy of web-based distribution - it is already happening if you care to look. It is a useful alternative to what already exists and it will no doubt continue to evolve. But there is NOTHING profound about the “shift” you propose, nor do I sense the seismic opportunities you envisage. This may be because I am short-sighted, or it may be that I have just heard it all before.

I used to work programming OpenDoc* applets. OpenDoc was an Apple technology meant to replace monolithic applications (such as MS Word) with a document-centric approach. The user would download and pay for these task-specific applets (created by a multitude of highly skilled, small-scale software vendors) upon demand. It was a great idea, it would have revolutionised the software industry for the better. Except of course it failed. This was largely because Microsoft, Adobe and other industry heavyweights had little motivation to cut their own throats. The parallels with your proposed scheme are clear, and although the model can’t be exactly applied in this instance (e.g. sample library creation is already mostly a cottage industry), you catch my drift.

Regarding piracy:
The broadly conservative commitment to market forces is intended such that it may accord to individuals greater or lesser manifold capacities (per head of capita) with respect to selling and buying. Note the absence of the terms stealing/pirating from this unwritten charter. One may equivocate all one wishes on this matter, but fundamentally your \"new\" business model asserts that people in the business of Sample CD production should respond to being ripped off by fellow \"signatories of the social contract\" by updating their distribution models. This simplistic idea is of little consequence in and of itself and will find its supporters and its critics. But the thought that this “Napster-esqe” model is IN ANY WAY a partial or wholesale solution to the problem of piracy is as one-dimensional as it is chronically naïve. I agree that the distribution model will likely change over time, but it will not eradicate (or even greatly impinge on) piracy. People pirate (steal) for a multifarious, melange of reasons. Some do it because it is fun, others get a pseudo-sexual buzz out of it, others are poor and cannot afford to pay, others are wilfully mistrustful of corporations, others are suspicious of anyone making money, others live in a virtual utopian dreamland where all products are free of charge and act accordingly, others simply enjoy the prospect of “getting one over” on other people, others would rather spend their money on recreational drugs, others are just greedy, others are a combination of all of the above and more and on and on.

We live in a time of unprecendented wealth creation and opportunities. Yet students plagiarise more texts than ever before (largely due to easy access on the internet), every day in the NYT or WSJ we read about some inconceivably wealthy arbitrager or another persisting in breaking the law in order to make the next, best (illegal) deal We know that people are more inclined than ever before to simply disregard social evils such as poverty and deprivation - so long as their life goes well. Are you now seriously going to tell me that your model takes all this in to account?

Ever heard of Gyges Ring Tim? As Plato spells it out in his Republic:

\"Gyges was a shepherd in the service of the king of Lydia; there was a great storm, and an earthquake made an opening in the earth at the place where he was feeding his flock. Amazed at the sight, he descended into the opening, where, among other marvels, he beheld a hollow brazen horse, having doors, at which he stooping and looking in saw a dead body of stature, as appeared to him, more than human, and having nothing on but a gold ring; this he took from the finger of the dead and reascended.

Now the shepherds met together, according to custom, that they might send their monthly report about the flocks to the king; into their assembly he came having the ring on his finger, and as he was sitting among them he chanced to turn the collet of the ring inside his hand, when instantly he became invisible to the rest of the company and they began to speak of him as if he were no longer present. He was astonished at this, and again touching the ring he turned the collet outwards and reappeared; he made several trials of the ring, and always with the same result-when he turned the collet inwards he became invisible, when outwards he reappeared. Whereupon he contrived to be chosen one of the messengers who were sent to the court; where as soon as he arrived he seduced the queen, and with her help conspired against the king and slew him, and took the kingdom.

Suppose now that there were two such magic rings, and the just put on one of them and the unjust the other; no man can be imagined to be of such an iron nature that he would stand fast in justice. No man would keep his hands off what was not his own when he could safely take what he liked out of the market, or go into houses and lie with any one at his pleasure, or kill or release from prison whom he would, and in all respects be like a God among men. Then the actions of the just would be as the actions of the unjust; they would both come at last to the same point. And this we may truly affirm to be a great proof that a man is just, not willingly or because he thinks that justice is any good to him individually, but of necessity, for wherever any one thinks that he can safely be unjust, there he is unjust. For all men believe in their hearts that injustice is far more profitable to the individual than justice, and he who argues as I have been supposing, will say that they are right.

If you could imagine any one obtaining this power of becoming invisible, and never doing any wrong or touching what was another\'s, he would be thought by the lookers-on to be a most wretched idiot, although they would praise him to one another\'s faces, and keep up appearances with one another from a fear that they too might suffer injustice.\"

Imagine for a moment that you were in possession of such a ring. How would you use it? If you had a perfect guarantee that you would never be caught or punished, what would you do?

Now imagine you are a sample pirate with a negligible chance of getting caught. In effect you own the modern day equivalent of the ring of Gyges. Notwithstanding personal ethics (which are subjective and resist the scrutiny of the greatest of economic models), what reasonable person would be able to resist such an alluring prospect? Why would it be rational to resist? THIS is what your model is up against Tim and you have NOT dealt with it, nor can you.

Why should others follow your lead based on some kind of vague market-led “intuition” of yours? The game we are playing seems reasonable enough to me. If you want to change the rules halfway though, you better come up with some pretty damn compelling reasons. Thus far you have singularly failed to convince me why your proposed solution amounts to any solution at all to the problem of piracy, nor that your model is any more stable in the short-term than the existing one.

Nobody is compelled to buy samples from third parties. If you don’t like what is on offer and think you can do better, you can make your own. Or you can chose to steal the work of others. You can even start your own company. I encourage you to go ahead and treat us consumers the way you would expect to be treated yourself. As it is I suspect this is largely what motivated Donnie and Sean, Nick and others to do what they do in the first place. Yes, perhaps, they could be more flexible in their distribution methods, but your bludgeoning, call-to-arms approach is not going to get any of us any further along that particular road.

Ian

Chris Beck

04-12-2001, 06:24 PM

Sean, Nick - LMAO! I hear Hans Zimmer has four fullly loaded racks of custom oranges ready to send to the Dalai Lama.

Ian was much more eloquent than I could ever be, but here are my thoughts nonetheless. Cool 7s Dad, you make some good arguments in favor of a different business model for sample developers. If I were in the sample development business, I\'d think hard about it. But these guys (DS, QL, etc.) want to do business their way. I understand that you think they\'re ignoring market forces. But, really, who cares? You don\'t have to buy their stuff, and whether or not they go out of business, it won\'t affect you one way or the other.

If you want cheap single-serving samples, there are several outlets that have been mentioned that would cater to you.

I\'m sure Nick and Donnie and Sean feel their libraries are \"premium\" (Nick even considers his libraries works of art) and stand above most soundfonts and the like. I\'m inclined to agree.

I guess I\'m just puzzled as to why you continue to feel the need to write incredibly long, well-written treatises on the subject. You made your point, and very well I might add. So lay off poor Donnie before he has a coronary, and let\'s see if we can\'t \"heel\" some of our hurt feelings http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

- Chris

[This message has been edited by Chris Beck (edited 04-12-2001).]

Robert Kral

04-12-2001, 08:07 PM

Chris, Nick, Tim, Donnie:

I agree with Chris! I think the POINTS have been made. We don\'t need to attack each other about the mode in which we choose to distribute our products. Some great points have been made, and I agree that the more unusual approach of distributing samples on a pay-for-only-what-you-use basis is a good challenge. But as Chris said, if the library producer doesn\'t wish to do it that way so be it!

There\'s a lot of flames in this thread. When checking out today\'s new posts on this website, I\'d rather not open up the \"sample library discussion\" list of threads and have the animated flames that spurt out of the subject folders (meaning more than 15 posts in this thread) come to mean there are flames WITHIN the topic!!

Cool discussion though!!!

Rob http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

Cool7s_Dad

04-12-2001, 10:56 PM

At this point I don\'t know whether to feel sorry for you or just conceede that you really are an idiot....

Well Donnie, I\'m a happy idiot, so there\'s no need to feel sorry for me.

First of all they are not two different technologies.

Donnie, they are *radically* different technologies. GigaSampler is to the hardware synth as pickups and amplifiers are to the guitar (unless of course, you use a *really firm* pick). It\'s one of the great technological innovations of the 90\'s... perhaps even of the 20th century.

Both sample cd\'s and sound modules fill the same need-sample playback.

The IBM 370 mainframe and the PC fill the same general need - carrying out tasks without human intervention. The major difference between the two is that PC\'s, being a lower cost, mass produced commodity, have found their way into homes across the world. Very few living rooms ever sported mainframes... although there did turn out to be a market for more than five of them. And today\'s PC is far more powerful than the old mainframes in every respect. But I\'m just an idiot, so you must\'ve already known that.

Whether it be from a module or a sample cd it\'s the same thing.

Well, except for a couple of significant differences. But who\'s counting?

Secondly, I can handle critism just fine. Ryan will even tell you that my past problems with him had nothing to do with his review which was 99% positive anyway.

ROFLMAO! Did I say anything about his review?

Trying (unsuccessfully) to land that blow tells me that you don\'t pay attention.

I am an idiot after all.

For example, you are jumping up and down about the great prices that Bigga Giggas has (and they are great prices BTW) but look at this. There latest cd \'s are $129 and $99 for one cd. Our percussion library is $299 which comes out to $74.75 a disc!

I proposed a price structure to Nick that would actually result in *more* revenue from the sale of all the samples contained on QLG. At $6 a sample, he makes an extra $6 if he sells each and every one to a particular user. The difference is that it would offer more choice to the end user, and result in a larger volume of sales.

But I forgot. His sample libraries are works of art in and of themselves. In fact, we\'re having the entire extended family over this weekend for a complete run-through of Quantum Leap Brass. We\'re planning to follow that up with Heavy Hitters Vol. 1 (my 74-year-old mom just loves to hear each piece of 46 different drum kits banged once each in rapid succession... partcularly when there are velocity splits involved... and those hi-hat cutoffs really *make* the whole experience).

For an encore, we\'re going to get out my entire set of oil paints and look at them. And if we\'re still not satisfied, I\'ve got a big bag of plaster out in the garage that will make an excellent centerpiece for the dining room table.

[/b]So why are you still complaining?[/b]

I\'m not. You\'ve convinced me. I\'m going to run right out today and buy a Mellotron.

Just address that!!

headinthesand@overpricedsamples.com

You know I don\'t think price has anything to do with any of this (I\'ve just taken that arguement away from you).

The arguement may be gone but the argument remains. Besides, you pirated that arguement from me. I charge $299 for 4 of them. At that price, you can afford to buy two sets. You are Milli Vanilli and I claim my 40 quid!

Nick, I think we just have to realize that no matter what there\'s always going to be someone out who\'s not happy no matter what.

Yup. I\'m the only one who feels this way.

I\'ll be you if I were selling our cd\'s for a buck you would cry because you had to pay for shipping!

I\'m too stupid to cry. But with the aid of advanced degrees in computer science and abstract algebra I *am* smart enough to download AWave Studio instead of having it shipped to me.

Peace,
(And thanks for all the laughs!)
Tim
http://www.elithic.com (\"http://www.elithic.com\")

Cool7s_Dad

04-12-2001, 11:09 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Nick Phoenix:
Quantum leap Drum Kits will be shipping next week. Tim, you were right all along. By the way, it is a 48 bit 192 sample rate library and ships on a Vega microchip. The library will be free, but when you die you must mail a box of oranges to the Dali Lama.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think Salvador Dali\'s llama died shortly after he did. But it\'s still a nice gesture on your part. On an unrelated note, the Dalai Lama prefers whole grain to fruit.

Peace,
Tim
http://www.elithic.com (\"http://www.elithic.com\")

donnie

04-13-2001, 12:14 AM

Ok as fun as this has been it\'s time to end this...I guess everyone, regardless of their ignorance, deserves their 15 min\'s in the spotlight but his time is up.

I along with others have tried to make light of this touchy situation but Tim I just don\'t think that you get it. You see even if you did make a good case no one is going to listen to you (and pay real close attention here) because you act like such a jack *** vomiting your overly verbose banter.

I take my job very seriously (as Chris loves to tell me http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif ) and I\'m not going to sell out here just because a few people may think ill of me. I\'m not worried about being \"politically correct\" just to make the sell--never have never will. Some things in life are more important than money.

Lets just come to an understanding, you run your business how you want and let us run our businesses how we want to. Advice is always welcome BUT in some sort of a \"human\" way. You remind me of someone with no social skills whatsoever which is really kind\'ve sad.

You keep jumping up and down about prices and how you would never buy our libraries. Look man, that\'s fine! Some customers are not worth having and you definately fall into that category. Just one last thought on the price thing though. There\'s a reason why a Ford is one price and a Bently is another. Just remeber that. Of course you\'ve probably flooded the Mercedes and BMW delearship emails with this same same \"inteligent\" agrument also!

Consider this discussion (at least from me) over!

Donnie

Cool7s_Dad

04-13-2001, 01:33 AM

Tim,

If you have REALLY thought this out as clearly as you maintain you have, what is to stop you from implementing your own great ideas?

I\'m an idiot Ian. Or haven\'t you heard?

How about, instead of complaining about the way others do business, you go in to competition with them?

Great idea. And next time your doctor botches your appendectomy, you can go to medical school.

The math here is pretty clear.

No it isn’t. Spell it out for all of us.

46 X 6 = 276 > 269.95

20,000 units @ 69.85 = 1,399,000 > 200 units @ 269.95 = 53,990

\'The driving forces behind piracy and black markets are well known.\'

No they are not. <snippage>

No, all your narcissistic bellyaching has accomplished is to ensure that few (if any) of the “providers” who read this list will do business with your nascent company.

Fortunately, hardly anyone reads this list. That\'s what makes it such a great place to come to bask in my own glory.

Look Tim, in spite of the facetiousness and superciliousness of much of my response (I am provoked in to this when someone sets himself up as one of society’s “better angels”)

You would never set yourself up that way... and just when I was starting to enjoy your ad hominem attacks.

I am fundamentally in agreement with your underlying philosophy of web-based distribution - it is already happening if you care to look.

Thanks for the tip.

It is a useful alternative to what already exists and it will no doubt continue to evolve. But there is NOTHING profound about the “shift” you propose,

I never said there was.

nor do I sense the seismic opportunities you envisage. This may be because I am short-sighted, or it may be that I have just heard it all before.

Perhaps I\'m privy to more data than you are.

I used to work programming OpenDoc* applets. OpenDoc was an Apple technology meant to replace monolithic applications (such as MS Word) with a document-centric approach. The user would download and pay for these task-specific applets (created by a multitude of highly skilled, small-scale software vendors) upon demand. It was a great idea, it would have revolutionised the software industry for the better. Except of course it failed.

Your implementation of it may have failed, but that process is quite alive and well. The last piece of software I installed from a CD was GigaStudio. And in this particular arena, I can tell you that the *only* way I\'ve purchased and installed DirectX plug-ins is with this method. That market is one that has literally exploded in the last couple of years. I *do* have hard figures on that.

This was largely because Microsoft, Adobe and other industry heavyweights had little motivation to cut their own throats.

It may have had something to do with the choice of platform and the scope of the design. Microsoft is a convenient whipping boy.

In reality, Microsoft has really tried to lead the way when it comes to enabling third party extensions to its products and operating systems. And while I may not be able to satisfy your need to have exact numbers regarding the successful evolution of OLE => ActiveX => COM => DCOM, I can tell you that it has indeed been an incredible success beyond the wildest dreams of its creators and users. The one constant throughout the history of engineering is the movement towards more encapsulated components and Microsoft, Adobe, Cakewalk, and Nemesys, to name a few, have done quite a bit to create new opportunities.

No, I don\'t like buying a PC with a bunch of crap preloaded on it. That\'s one of the many reasons to purchase exactly the components i need and put them together myself. Some people aren\'t in a position to do that. In that case, a PC preloaded with Office might make sense. But at least there\'s a choice.

And yes, Microsoft and Adobe still produce large monolithic applications. In those markets, it\'s important to provide some uniformity of function, as you seem to have found out. Music production is quite a different matter.

However, if you really need a word processor that mostly revolves around third party components, Quark is still alive and well.

Donnie, Nick, and others are certainly deserving of every penney they get. That has never been the issue for me. They can package their libraries however they want. I can respond to that accordingly. They can choose to ignore it. They can continue to skewer people they don\'t agree with, and there\'s not a thing I can do about it. But I don\'t gotta like it. Ain\'t life great?

The parallels with your proposed scheme are clear,

As are the problems with your analogy.

and although the model can’t be exactly applied in this instance (e.g. sample library creation is already mostly a cottage industry), you catch my drift.

There are no guarantees of success. I never said there were.

Regarding piracy: <snippage of description of the forces behind piracy that are not well known. Darn! Looks like that cat\'s outta the bag>

You did forget the most obvious reason: It\'s cheap and easy... for those that know how. It seems that there are a large number of people who do what we do that know how to take advantage of these clandestine opportunities. If we can agree on that, then it follows that purchasing and downloading online is not a real technical impediment as you previously suggested.

<snippage>

Are you now seriously going to tell me that your model takes all this in to account?

Are you going to seriously tell me that all that really matters? As you point out, there\'s really nothing you can do about people who pirate samples for the reasons you so eloquently stated. My contention is that there is a large class of people that you can do something about. Sales vs. piracy of other similar types of components strongly suggest this.

Ever heard of Gyges Ring Tim?

Yup. H.L. Mencken summed it up nicely (and I\'m paraphrasing here): \"It\'s a sin to think ill of your neighbor. But it\'s almost always correct.\"

Still, you win the grand prize for excessive verbosity. Fortunately, I don\'t mind it at all. Your story is a good one and it raises many relevant issues.

Imagine for a moment that you were in possession of such a ring. How would you use it? If you had a perfect guarantee that you would never be caught or punished, what would you do?

Many things. Not all of them bad. There\'s not a person alive over the age of 2 who hasn\'t done something they know to be wrong. You don\'t need Gyges ring for that.

Now imagine you are a sample pirate with a negligible chance of getting caught. In effect you own the modern day equivalent of the ring of Gyges. Notwithstanding personal ethics (which are subjective and resist the scrutiny of the greatest of economic models), what reasonable person would be able to resist such an alluring prospect? Why would it be rational to resist? THIS is what your model is up against Tim and you have NOT dealt with it, nor can you.

This assumes that people will steal from their neighbors every chance they get. Is that really how you view humanity?

Thus far you have singularly failed to convince me why your proposed solution amounts to any solution at all to the problem of piracy, nor that your model is any more stable in the short-term than the existing one.

But I don\'t have to convince you Ian. Nor do I have to convince Donnie and Nick. I\'m just planting a seed. You may not like my methods. But I don\'t really see you doing anything about something you agree is a problem.

Nobody is compelled to buy samples from third parties. If you don’t like what is on offer and think you can do better, you can make your own. Or you can chose to steal the work of others. You can even start your own company.

All these things are true. But they are not the only alternatives.

I encourage you to go ahead and treat us consumers the way you would expect to be treated yourself.

In fact, we do Ian. We send out a free sampler just for the asking. If you buy an album from us and decide you don\'t like it, send it back for a full refund. No questions asked. What I\'ve found is that expecting the best of my customers results in it.

As it is I suspect this is largely what motivated Donnie and Sean, Nick and others to do what they do in the first place. Yes, perhaps, they could be more flexible in their distribution methods, but your bludgeoning, call-to-arms approach is not going to get any of us any further along that particular road.

I couldn\'t disagree more. It sometimes is one of the most effective methods for dealing with egos this large.

Peace,
Tim
http://www.elithic.com (\"http://www.elithic.com\")

Cool7s_Dad

04-13-2001, 01:42 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by donnie:
Consider this discussion (at least from me) over!

Declare victory and leave. Thanks a lot Donnie... I haven\'t thought of **** Nixon for at least a week.

Peace,
Tim
http://www.elithic.com (\"http://www.elithic.com\")

Ian Stewart Cairns

04-13-2001, 08:27 AM

How about, instead of complaining about the way others do business, you go in to competition with them?

Great idea. And next time your doctor botches your appendectomy, you can go to medical school.

There are very good reasons to defer to experts on a wide range of matters. Life is too short and levels of intellect too varied for everybody to be an expert in everything. In such cases we seek out experts who have had relevant training and whose performance is monitored by a professional body; that is why we feel confident to rely on their judgement (although even here it is right to adopt a sceptical attitude). Now, given this, and given your areas of specialised interest, backtrack and attempt to spot the gaping hole in your analogy.

Perhaps I\'m privy to more data than you are.

Perhaps you are. But until you back this claim up I am working on the assumption that you are not.

Re OpenDoc:

Your implementation of it may have failed, but that process is quite alive and well.
The last piece of software I installed from a CD was GigaStudio. And in this particular arena, I can tell you that the *only* way I\'ve purchased and installed DirectX plug-ins is with this method. That market is one that has literally exploded in the last couple of years. I *do* have hard figures on that.

From a technical standpoint DirectX is an inferior implementation of the OpenDoc idea. From a business perspective DirectX was designed as a response to OpenDoc. Plugins go part of the way, but still require monolithic apps to feed upon. OpenDoc was a change of philosophy and infrastructure. It was a break from old way of thinking - a genuine shift. As with all Microsoft does, the introduction of DirectX/ActiveX/OLE was chiefly intended to line their own pockets. In this respect it has succeeded admirably.

This was largely because Microsoft, Adobe and other industry heavyweights had little motivation to cut their own throats.

It may have had something to do with the choice of platform and the scope of the design. Microsoft is a convenient whipping boy.[/i]

I am not quite sure what you are getting at here. You do know that OpenDoc was a completely cross-platform solution don\'t you? I mean, you wouldn’t talk about something you don\'t know anything about, would you?

[b]In reality, Microsoft has really tried to lead the way when it comes to enabling third party extensions to its products and operating systems. (My italics. )

Ahh, spot the difference right there.

And yes, Microsoft and Adobe still produce large monolithic applications. In those markets, it\'s important to provide some uniformity of function, as you seem to have found out. Music production is quite a different matter.

Why is this the case? (You seem to have this uncanny habit of making proclamations and not providing any supporting evidence.)

However, if you really need a word processor that mostly revolves around third party components, Quark is still alive and well.

Quark is a page layout program - not a word processor. You\'d have to be, well, an idiot to use Quark as a word processor. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/grin.gif

Donnie, Nick, and others are certainly deserving of every penney they get. That has never been the issue for me. They can package their libraries however they want. I can respond to that accordingly. They can choose to ignore it. They can continue to skewer people they don\'t agree with, and there\'s not a thing I can do about it. But I don\'t gotta like it. Ain\'t life great?

Poor Tim. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/frown.gif

As you point out, there\'s really nothing you can do about people who pirate samples for the reasons you so eloquently stated. My contention is that there is a large class of people that you can do something about. Sales vs. piracy of other similar types of components strongly suggest this.

I really would appreciate some data to back this up. Or am I expected to take your word on this one as well? Given how strongly you feel about this, given how much clandestine data you claim to hold, given that you are clearly knowledgable about the business of sampling, given that you so desire change etc. etc.... what on earth is stopping you from implementing your own ideas? I don’t follow. If there is so much money to be made, why not drop what your doing for a couple of years and set up an online sample distribution firm? Why not?

Imagine for a moment that you were in possession of such a ring. How would you use it? If you had a perfect guarantee that you would never be caught or punished, what would you do?[

Many things. Not all of them bad. There\'s not a person alive over the age of 2 who hasn\'t done something they know to be wrong. You don\'t need Gyges ring for that.

You are partly missing the point of the story Tim. It is not simply about guilty pleasure. With Gyges\' ring the question becomes, \"if you can get away with piracy with little or no risk of being caught, why is it irrational to pirate\"?

Now imagine you are a sample pirate with a negligible chance of getting caught. In effect you own the modern day equivalent of the ring of Gyges. Notwithstanding personal ethics (which are subjective and resist the scrutiny of the greatest of economic models), what reasonable person would be able to resist such an alluring prospect? Why would it be rational to resist? THIS is what your model is up against Tim and you have NOT dealt with it, nor can you.

This assumes that people will steal from their neighbors every chance they get. Is that really how you view humanity?

Yes. The reason we have the state is to minimize our individual suffering. The state in effect, possesses a monopoly of legitimate violence. Come on Tim, you seem like a smart fellow, you must have read Hobbes\'Leviathan. You must be \"au fait\" with contemporary game theory. Without the state, for most of us, life would indeed likely be \"nasty, brutish and short\"

But I don\'t have to convince you Ian. Nor do I have to convince Donnie and Nick. I\'m just planting a seed. You may not like my methods. But I don\'t really see you doing anything about something you agree is a problem.

??? I don\'t agree that there is a problem. I agree that web based distribution is a good idea. You are conflating the two notions.

Nobody is compelled to buy samples from third parties. If you don’t like what is on offer and think you can do better, you can make your own. Or you can chose to steal the work of others. You can even start your own company.

All these things are true. But they are not the only alternatives.

Once again, a proclamation with no supporting argument. What are the other alternatives? Shouting?

Ian

[This message has been edited by Ian Stewart Cairns (edited 04-13-2001).]

SteveHanlon

04-13-2001, 08:32 PM

Why doesn\'t someone (who is interested) take a look at Sampleheads\' vs. Ilio productions. Sampleheads offers their stuff as individual samples.
Perhaps they could shed some light on the success or failure of distibuting that way.

knife

04-13-2001, 10:44 PM

How about, instead of complaining about the way others do business, you go in to competition with them?

Great idea. And next time your doctor botches your appendectomy, you can go to medical school.

Well, to a degree, I have taken this approach. I have tried many different sampled drum sounds, and, like Nick, I\'ve never been happy with an entire group.

So what\'s my solution? Well, I opt for the luddite trick. I have a 1977 set of white marine pearl Slingerlands, with the original heads on the toms (!), and I love the way they sound. So I use them. I also have about 8 snares that I use, depending upon what the music calls for...

I have tried sampling them, but if you\'ve ever heard Ed Thigpen talk about cymbals, you know that he\'s said he can get a thousand sounds out of one cymbal. Same kind of deal with drums. So I\'ll use a sampled drum track as a guide, but the snob in me can still tell the difference. I\'m not going to hit my 12\" tom the same way every time, and I want a different sound every different time...

Way back when, I sold samples for the Akai S612 sampler. I just don\'t think that any sampled drum sounds quite like a real one. We\'ve gotten close on piano, but not on drums. Go figure.

There are very good reasons to defer to experts on a wide range of matters. Life is too short and levels of intellect too varied for everybody to be an expert in everything.

I\'m with you on this, but personally, I like the way my drums sound better than anyone else\'s. So I\'ll use mine, since the \"experts\" have different (not better or worse) tastes than I do.

--

Ashley

[This message has been edited by knife (edited 04-13-2001).]

@oM

04-15-2001, 04:53 PM

Hi,

here\'s my humble opinion:

Tim: way to go, I think you have very good points. And don\'t feel bad because some other people react so ehm... childish/stupid/ignorant/american (oh no, that\'s the same right?).
I would also like to see more samples where I can just buy a couple of instruments instead of the entire cd. I have illegaly downloaded a couple of samplecd\'s and if I would have bought them, I would be very unhappy. Most, oh well, actually all are in my closet collecting dust.
I really would like it if I could listen to an instrument by multiple high-quality mp3 demo\'s and then decide if I like it and then buy it. From my point of view this is much more fair for me, because I only pay for what I want.
The reason of piracy, I think , is that you can easily get \'ripped off\'. For example, if I would have bought those sample cd\'s. The demo\'s sounded quite good, but when I used the samples, they were pretty disappointing. I\'d like to try stuff out before I buy it. And yes I know that when someone has downloaded it, he\'ll probably never buy it.
The same problem with software; if I would have bought Cubase for that much money and I know what I know now, I\'d be really pissed off. I pay for a lot of features that I\'m not using. I believe Microsoft will try to \'solve\' this problem with it\'s .NET strategy.

By selling seperate instruments, I think you can take away a lot of piracy. If I hear a good demo of 1 instrument and I really want it, I\'m not going to do difficult because of 6$. If I would have to buy a sample cd of 300$ for only 1 instrument, well then I know where most people would get it.

Donnie, grow up http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

Those others whom\'s posts weren\'t even worth to read... ah never mind http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

Like I said, that\'s my opinion http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif I bet you don\'t like it at all... That probably makes me crazy as well hey? When you don\'t agree with someone, you just call him crazy; so easy, so american http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

Bladiebla,
Tom

[This message has been edited by @oM (edited 04-16-2001).]

@oM

04-15-2001, 04:55 PM

About the drum sample cd\'s http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

I have bought one (yes bought http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif) and I\'m really very happy with it. I think this one was worth every cent.
It\'s Drumkit from Hell (\"http://drumkit.toontrack.com\"). Check it out. It\'s only 1 (big) kit (with some additional snares, bass drums, etc), but recorded with really high quality. For example take a snare. With and without snares, left and right hand both with 10-14 velocities, 10 different loud hits (on different positions on the snare), stereo, close miked and room miked samples. Read the site for more info.

The wave version was only 79$ and a gigasamplerversion (which isn\'t out yet) is 139$ I believe. The wave version was a total of 650mb of samples http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

(and no, I do not work for them or have anything to do with them in any way)

Tom

donnie

04-15-2001, 05:21 PM

\"I have illegaly downloaded a couple of samplecd\'s and if I would have bought them, I would be very unhappy. Most, oh well, actually all are in my closet collecting dust.\"

You know, just when you think you\'ve seen it all something always comes up that just blows your mind...

number one: you talk about americans being stupid but how \"stupid\" is it of you to come on a site where developers are with your ip address showing braging about illegally downloading samples. I don\'t know \"exactly\" who you are (yet) but I\'m sure that the following will be able to let me know...

University of Nijmegen (NET-NUNET)
Geert Grooteplein 41
Nijmegen, 6525 GA
NL

Netname: NUNET
Netblock: 131.174.0.0 - 131.174.255.255

Coordinator:
Sprengers, Frans-Jozef (FS175-ARIN) F-J.Sprengers@uci.kun.nl
+31 24 3617980 (FAX) +31 24 3617979

Domain System inverse mapping provided by:

CAPYBARA.UCI.KUN.NL 131.174.60.21
NS1.SCI.KUN.NL 131.174.224.4
NS1.SURFNET.NL 192.87.106.101

Secondly, and this is the funniest part. Does anyone smell a \"plant\"? Well a \"plant\" is someone who has been asked by another person to come on a forum and blast someone for another persons benefit. The usual tell tell signs are someone with just one post (or two if he posts something right after the first) and has somewhat curiously REALLY strong convictions about an argument he wasn\'t even a part of.

So I guess to sum it up thanks for making my Easter Sunday a really funny one!

Oh, and I am American and you ARE an idiot.

Donnie

[This message has been edited by donnie (edited 04-15-2001).]

@oM

04-16-2001, 01:04 AM

You\'re welcome http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif
Help help! And what kind of proof do you have that:
a. I actually have downloaded illegal stuff
If I say that I\'ve killed JFK, would you believe that? Maybe I was just saying it to make my arguments stronger or to piss you off which is so easy.
b. the ip in this post is genuine; there are loads of ways to post something under a different ip
And in case you have been sleeping, everyone (except you maybe) is doing illegal stuff on the internet. Ever heard of napster?
Sure you can try to attack me, is that gonna help? No, there are thousands or millions of people out there who are probably a lot worse than I am. When I like something after trying it out, I buy it. I would try to find an other solution instead of trying to bust all those millions of people all around the world.
I even bet that a lot of users of this forum download sample cd\'s, but they don\'t say so.

Of course, sure, I\'m an idiot. You\'re not of course! Damn, I thought nobody would notice... http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif
And to make you feel better, if I would really like something I\'ve downloaded, I would buy them. You probably don\'t believe that, but I would.

And I don\'t think 300$ for a or some good sample cd\'s is much. I\'d be happy to pay it. But when I only use 1 or a couple of instruments or afterwards I\'m not happy with the sounds, then I\'m very disappointed.
I don\'t say that you have to sell your cd\'s in other ways, I\'m just trying to say that by selling it in other ways, may increase your sales and decrease piracy and increase the happiness of customers. You of course must decide if you do it this way or not.

Don\'t take it so heavily, try to see what Tim means. You don\'t have to agree, but I think a lot of people (who keep their mouth shut, what I probably should have done) agree with him, so maybe there are probably some pretty good points in there?

Happy easter and succes with your upcoming releases.

[This message has been edited by @oM (edited 04-16-2001).]

Dos

04-16-2001, 04:44 AM

Marty, thanks for the heads up about Sampleheads. Great example IMHO of what these guys will eventually have to do.

Dos

04-16-2001, 04:46 AM

Marty, thanks for the heads up about Sampleheads. Great example IMHO of what these guys will eventually have to do.

Cool7s_Dad

04-16-2001, 10:02 AM

Originally posted by Ian Stewart Cairns:

There are very good reasons to defer to experts on a wide range of matters. Life is too short and levels of intellect too varied for everybody to be an expert in everything. In such cases we seek out experts who have had relevant training and whose performance is monitored by a professional body; that is why we feel confident to rely on their judgement (although even here it is right to adopt a sceptical attitude). Now, given this, and given your areas of specialised interest, backtrack and attempt to spot the gaping hole in your analogy.

There\'s no gaping hole Ian. If I don\'t like the way my car is repaired, I complain to management. I don\'t find a torque wrench and climb under the hood. If I don\'t like the level of service I receive at Walmart, I complain to management. It\'s the first, and usually best, recourse. Saying that I should become a sample producer is patently ridiculous.

Perhaps you are. But until you back this claim up I am working on the assumption that you are not.

Check out http://www.directxfiles.com. (\"http://www.directxfiles.com.\")

Re OpenDoc:

I\'m not going to get into a lengthy, off-topic, debate about the evils and inferierities of Microsoft with you. Your analogy was way off base to begin with. I never claimed to know anything about OpenDoc, nor do I really want to. I was very careful to say may when I pointed out why it might have failed.

You do know that OpenDoc was a completely cross-platform solution don\'t you?

Again, I\'m not going to debate this issue you. However, you are aware that cross-platform development efforts in the past have been, by and large, abject failures? Take a look at the current state of Java for starters.

Quark is a page layout program - not a word processor. You\'d have to be, well, an idiot to use Quark as a word processor.

The lines between word processing and page layout have been blurring for at least a decade and a half. Having been on the Harvard Professional Publisher team in 1986, I know this first hand.

I really would appreciate some data to back this up. Or am I expected to take your word on this one as well?

You haven\'t taken my word on anything. Why start now?

If there is so much money to be made, why not drop what your doing for a couple of years and set up an online sample distribution firm? Why not?

Are you repeating yourself in your old age http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif ?

You are partly missing the point of the story Tim. It is not simply about guilty pleasure. With Gyges\' ring the question becomes, \"if you can get away with piracy with little or no risk of being caught, why is it irrational to pirate\"?

Because it\'s wrong. And in the long run, it hurts everyone.

This assumes that people will steal from their neighbors every chance they get. Is that really how you view humanity?

Yes. The reason we have the state is to minimize our individual suffering. The state in effect, possesses a monopoly of legitimate violence.

But this doesn\'t prove your silly assertion that everyone will always steal as much as they can.

Come on Tim, you seem like a smart fellow, you must have read Hobbes\'Leviathan. You must be \"au fait\" with contemporary game theory. Without the state, for most of us, life would indeed likely be \"nasty, brutish and short\"

Perhaps. But for a guy who always want proof of my assertions, yours are accompanied by none.

??? I don\'t agree that there is a problem. I agree that web based distribution is a good idea. You are conflating the two notions.

Sorry, I misinterpreted. It\'s always been my belief that good ideas solve problems. Silly me.

Nobody is compelled to buy samples from third parties. If you don’t like what is on offer and think you can do better, you can make your own. Or you can chose to steal the work of others. You can even start your own company.

All these things are true. But they are not the only alternatives.

Once again, a proclamation with no supporting argument. What are the other alternatives? Shouting?

Complaining. PR. Purchasing samples from competitors. These are all legitimate ways to pursue this problem. Choosing to \"steal the work of others\" is not. Sheesh.

Peace,
Tim
http://www.elithic.com (\"http://www.elithic.com\")

Cool7s_Dad

04-16-2001, 10:10 AM

Originally posted by donnie:

Secondly, and this is the funniest part. Does anyone smell a \"plant\"? Well a \"plant\" is someone who has been asked by another person to come on a forum and blast someone for another persons benefit.

If you are accusing me of something Donnie, come right out and say it. I won\'t hurt you or threaten you with bodily harm (things that are easy to do when hiding behind a keyboard, eh Nick?).

Peace,
Tim
http://www.elithic.com (\"http://www.elithic.com\")

Synth2k

04-16-2001, 01:49 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Haydn:

Sonic implants offers drumsets for download for a reasonable price. But I have noticed that the newer libraries do not offer downloads. Is this because they do not find it profitable to offer this service?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Due to the size of some samples out there, perhaps offering a downloaded version isn\'t as practical for larger samples, since there are still a lot of folks who aren\'t on a broadband connection yet. In 3-5 years I fully expect this to change, and maybe developers can one day feel confident in allowing customers to download an entire library immediately after it\'s purchase (or partial purchase, should the samples be available separately).

It\'s hard for me to say what would work since I don\'t sell sample libraries, but in theory if everyone were on broadband and not dialup and preferred to download instead of waiting for their library to ship it might work! Maybe even a discount rate could apply as it does with many software companies who offer a download version in addition to a boxed version. Since there would be no packaging costs, those savings could be passed on to the customer. That way we could all use that extra money to pay for our broadband Internet connections :o)

Ryan.

------------------
Sonic Control
www..com (\"http://www..com\")
Giga Users Network at
www..com/gigasampler/ (\"http://www..com/gigasampler/\")

[This message has been edited by Synth2k (edited 04-16-2001).]

Ian Stewart Cairns

04-16-2001, 03:06 PM

OK, Nick let’s see if I can help us on the road to 100 posts http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/grin.gif

First of all. What is the relevance of the Cakewalk-sponsored DirectX files web site? Where on the site do I find the secret of eternal life?

Tim said:

There\'s no gaping hole Ian. If I don\'t like the way my car is repaired, I complain to management. I don\'t find a torque wrench and climb under the hood.

I do.

If I don\'t like the level of service I receive at Walmart, I complain to management. It\'s the first, and usually best, recourse.

Let me spell this out in painstaking detail for you. A brain surgeon is a specialist in her field. I assume you lack the prerequisite skills to become a brain surgeon, hence it is unlikely that you will operate on yourself if ever required. Nor would you be likely to succeed if you tried to go in to competition with Wallmart – that market is already saturated. OTOH, you DO seem to know quite a bit about the business of sample distribution, and you claim to be privy to insider knowledge that others in the field lack. And you say there is a lot more money to be made by following your sample distribution model. Sounds like a business opportunity to me. If the situation is as rosy as you paint it, then get someone with capital to back you up and I guarantee that if you offer a great service with great prices, I will be your first customer (although you might like to brush up on your communication/PR skills first).

BTW, do you usually verbally abuse people whilst complaining? Are you just a hot-head by temperament? Or does the relative anonymity of the web suit you?

Saying that I should become a sample producer is patently ridiculous.

I suggested that you should start a company offering an online distribution service to sample producers. Read a bit more carefully in future. Why is it ridiculous?

You haven\'t taken my word on anything. Why start now?

Have I not wholeheartedly agreed that your suggestion of online distribution is a good one. (at least once the broadband infrastructure is in place to support it)Is it simply that you read all posts selectively, or do you just enjoy spoiling for a fight? http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

But this doesn\'t prove your silly assertion that everyone will always steal as much as they can.

Yawn. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/rolleyes.gif More selective reading. I am getting tired of this. This is NOT what I said. What I DID say was that life without the state would ultimately become intolerable and that it would lead to a war of all against all. This obviously includes stealing.

Stealing comes in many subtle forms. Ever used Napster Tim? Ever “forgotten” to pay for a piece of shareware? Ever stolen an apple from an apple tree? Ever wonder how western society achieved its prominent (and thus far decisive) position relative to other cultures? Ever wonder why most of the world lives in conditions of poverty? Ever wonder why large corporations are so rich? History teaches us that the stronger societies have always stolen from the weaker,and gotten away with it. Our commercial legacy is largely one of thievery.(read up on the history of the East India company amongst a litany of others for examples of blatant exploitation) Of course, stealing is not all the human race does, we do some wonderful, beautiful things as well. Then again, we do many things worse than stealing. Like most others, we are a puzzling species.

However, let me move the discussion from the abstract to the concrete. Recently, I have been speaking with Ralf Schlünzen, the CEO of TC Works (who make many terrific plug-ins). Now get this. Ralf tells me that (and this is a direct quote):

”…we get ripped off approx. 60% on the Pro Tools platform and 85% on the native VST platforms. It is very dramatic. If we would have to survive from Plug-Ins alone, we would have been easily put out of business by piracy!”

Furthermore, the TC Works discussion forum, has been shut down recently because according to TC Works:

This discussion group has been closed down, as it unfortunately was being misused for:

- actively asking for cracks
- technical support
- exchange of harsh and judgemental language

Take these facts and figures on faith OR write to Ralph at ralfs@tcworks.de and ask him to confirm them.

Come on Tim, you seem like a smart fellow, you must have read Hobbes\'Leviathan. You must be \"au fait\" with contemporary game theory. Without the state, for most of us, life would indeed likely be \"nasty, brutish and short\"

Perhaps. But for a guy who always want proof of my assertions, yours are accompanied by none.

Oh dear. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/rolleyes.gif This is almost too easy.
This is not the forum to discuss these issues in the kind of detail required. Although I cited sources, this issue isnon-empirical and hence more appropriate for philosophy forums. If you desire a full-blown explanation of my views relating to political philosophy, I will gladly share them with you via email. Do some research, and I will be happy to talk it over with you.

OTOH, I asked you to back up some of your empirical claims with facts and figures. None were provided. This does not necessarily mean that I think you are lying, it does mean that I think you come across as full of bluster and little substance. As for \"proof\" that humans living in the ‘state of nature’ are not to be trusted, simply open your eyes. Wars are being fought and millions of people are being murdered all over the world RIGHT NOW, even as you whine ceaselessly about the cost of sample CDs.

??? I don\'t agree that there is a problem. I agree that web based distribution is a good idea. You are conflating the two notions.

Sorry, I misinterpreted.

No problem.

... legitimate ways to pursue this problem... [include] Complaining.

Yeah, you’re good at that.

Choosing to \"steal the work of others\" is not. Sheesh.

It is clearly an option for millions of \"customers\" throughout the world. Still, if you say it’s not I will sleep easier in my bed tonight.

Ian

P.S. Re: the relevance of the OpenDoc analogy. What sequencer do you use Tim? Do you use all its features? I use Logic Audio and Digital Performer and I bet I use less than half the features available to me. Isn’t that a rip-off? Now, why is it that you don’t complain about paying for application features you don’t use (in your idiomatic way)? I mean, you complain enough about paying for samples you don’t use. What’s the big difference?

Get it now?

Ian

[This message has been edited by Ian Stewart Cairns (edited 04-16-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Ian Stewart Cairns (edited 04-16-2001).]

Ian Stewart Cairns

04-16-2001, 03:07 PM

Double post. Damn forum software! It\'s time to take a stand!!!

I\'m gonna sue for emotional distress. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/grin.gif

[This message has been edited by Ian Stewart Cairns (edited 04-16-2001).]

Ian Stewart Cairns

04-16-2001, 03:09 PM

Drat and Double-Drat. Make that a Triple Drat. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/grin.gif

[This message has been edited by Ian Stewart Cairns (edited 04-16-2001).]

Nick Phoenix

04-16-2001, 11:08 PM

Tim,
I was just trying to make a point, which is: how unlikable you are. Your numbers are way off. I can\'t disclose figures, but Nemesys sales and pirated versions of their software are nothing like what you think. I have exact sales numbers and estimated pirated figures.
LETS GO FOR 100 POSTS!!!! WAHOOOOOOOOOO!!

Haydn

04-16-2001, 11:59 PM

I find the majority of the libraries are priced reasonably with the exception of Miroslav. $299 for Donnie\'s Ultimate Percussion library is quite reasonable. I use almost all of the samples. I would find it a pain in the but to have to download each sample every time I needed a new one. This would interrupt the flow of my creativity. Also, I have disabled internet access in my hardware profile for doing music because of IRQ conflicts with my NIC. The time to download the high quality samples would take too much time especially by the time I burn it to CD-ROM for my backup copy.

I like to research each library before I purchase it. This includes reading posts on this forum and through many other sources. This saves me from blowing money on a disk that I would only use one sound from. I use at least 50% of the samples from each library I purchase. How can you purchase something such as The Ultimate Timpani library one instrument at a time? You need to purchase this library as a whole. I can\'t wait to purchase this one.

Sonic implants offers drumsets for download for a reasonable price. But I have noticed that the newer libraries do not offer downloads. Is this because they do not find it profitable to offer this service?

SCARBEE

04-17-2001, 12:32 PM

It\'s almost like a Soap opera... everyday a new intrique and nice stuff like that - but 100 post would be so cool.

Thomas

Cool7s_Dad

04-17-2001, 03:22 PM

Originally posted by Ian Stewart Cairns:
OK, Nick let’s see if I can help us on the road to 100 posts

It\'s certainly a subject that merits it.

First of all. What is the relevance of the Cakewalk-sponsored DirectX files web site?

It just demonstrates the massive proliferation of the technology. I know, it\'s only anecdotal, but it is significant.

Where on the site do I find the secret of eternal life?

That would be the info on the Antares Autotune plug-in http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif

There\'s no gaping hole Ian. If I don\'t like the way my car is repaired, I complain to management. I don\'t find a torque wrench and climb under the hood.

I do.

Then you\'re one multitalented dude Ian. In the sixties, I could work on my own car. But I open the hood now and have no idea what I\'m looking at. I don\'t know many people who do.

Let me spell this out in painstaking detail for you. A brain surgeon is a specialist in her field. I assume you lack the prerequisite skills to become a brain surgeon, hence it is unlikely that you will operate on yourself if ever required. Nor would you be likely to succeed if you tried to go in to competition with Wallmart – that market is already saturated. OTOH, you DO seem to know quite a bit about the business of sample distribution, and you claim to be privy to insider knowledge that others in the field lack. And you say there is a lot more money to be made by following your sample distribution model. Sounds like a business opportunity to me. If the situation is as rosy as you paint it, then get someone with capital to back you up and I guarantee that if you offer a great service with great prices, I will be your first customer (although you might like to brush up on your communication/PR skills first).

I appreciate the advice Ian. But no thanks. I have enough irons in the fire as it is. I\'ve already offered to help. But I\'d rather stick with my current business, which deals with clinical and financial applications for healthcare providers and payers. As lucrative as sample production might be, it\'ll never approach 1/7 of the GDP. Nor will it contribute in a direct and material way to the saving of millions of lives every day.

Get it now?

BTW, do you usually verbally abuse people whilst complaining?

Only people who need to be taken down a notch.

Are you just a hot-head by temperament? Or does the relative anonymity of the web suit you?

There\'s no anonymity here for me at all. I post the url to my web site with every post. There\'s no aliasing, no faking. WYSIWYG.

I suggested that you should start a company offering an online distribution service to sample producers. Read a bit more carefully in future. Why is it ridiculous?

Why don\'t you do it Ian? If you think it\'s such a great idea for me, then why isn\'t it a great idea for you?

You haven\'t taken my word on anything. Why start now?

Have I not wholeheartedly agreed that your suggestion of online distribution is a good one. (at least once the broadband infrastructure is in place to support it)Is it simply that you read all posts selectively, or do you just enjoy spoiling for a fight? http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

Have you stopped beating your wife yet Ian?

But this doesn\'t prove your silly assertion that everyone will always steal as much as they can.

Yawn. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/rolleyes.gif More selective reading. I am getting tired of this.

Ian, I said, \"this assumes that people will steal from their neighbors every chance they get. Is that really how you view humanity?\" To which you responded \"Yes.\"

This is NOT what I said.

Yes it is. Shall I quote it yet a third time?

Stealing comes in many subtle forms. Ever used Napster Tim? Ever “forgotten” to pay for a piece of shareware? (blah, blah, blah)[b]

This is all lovely Ian. You\'ve managed to determine that everyone will do bad things from time to time. Congratulations. It\'s still ridiculous to assert that everyone will do as much bad as they think they can get away with.

[b]However, let me move the discussion from the abstract to the concrete. Recently, I have been speaking with Ralf Schlünzen, the CEO of TC Works (who make many terrific plug-ins). Now get this. Ralf tells me that (and this is a direct quote):

”…we get ripped off approx. 60% on the Pro Tools platform and 85% on the native VST platforms. It is very dramatic. If we would have to survive from Plug-Ins alone, we would have been easily put out of business by piracy!”

You realize that TC Works are some very expensive plug-ins don\'t you? This just confirms that selling these things like they are hardware boxes doesn\'t work in this world.

This discussion group has been closed down, as it unfortunately was being misused for:

- actively asking for cracks
- technical support
- exchange of harsh and judgemental language

LOL... they shut it down because it was misused for technical support?

Take these facts and figures on faith OR write to Ralph at ralfs@tcworks.de and ask him to confirm them.

No need. These numbers just confirm what I\'ve been saying.

Perhaps. But for a guy who always want proof of my assertions, yours are accompanied by none.

Yeah, you’re good at that.

When necessary.

P.S. Re: the relevance of the OpenDoc analogy. What sequencer do you use Tim? Do you use all its features? I use Logic Audio and Digital Performer and I bet I use less than half the features available to me. Isn’t that a rip-off?

It can be. But you\'ll also notice that most companies offer scaled back versions of their products at a cheaper price with credit towards an upgrade. There\'s Microsoft Office Small Business Edition and Backoffice Small Business. There\'s Guitar Studio from Cakewalk (and they used to have ScoreWriter until they dropped the price of Overture to around $100). Even Miroslav has his mini library (that still comes with a maxi price tag).

Now, why is it that you don’t complain about paying for application features you don’t use (in your idiomatic way)? I mean, you complain enough about paying for samples you don’t use. What’s the big difference?

When Bill Gates comes on this forum, viciously attacks the users of his products, and talks about how great he and his work are... talks about his work as though he\'s the only one who has put in long, lonely hours, I won\'t be afraid of him either Ian.

Get it now?

Peace,
Tim
http://www.elithic.com (\"http://www.elithic.com\")

Ian Stewart Cairns

04-17-2001, 04:36 PM

Have you stopped beating your wife yet Ian?

Peace,
Tim

Enough said.

Ian

esperlad

04-17-2001, 05:21 PM

You know, I really like vanilla.

Nick Phoenix

04-17-2001, 06:25 PM

ALL WORK AND NO PLAY MAKES ..... A DULL BOY

Ian Stewart Cairns

04-17-2001, 06:58 PM

I appreciate the advice Ian. But no thanks. I have enough irons in the fire as it is. I\'ve already offered to help. But I\'d rather stick with my current business…

Ahh Timmy, Timmy. At last I got ya to really bite. Admittedly you are a bit slow on the uptake, but we got there nevertheless. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/grin.gif

Let me introduce you to the wonderful world of irony. Can you appreciate how you have turned the argument around 180 degrees? You started off by chastising others to get in to a business they say they do not want to be in, you harangue and harass them on this board even though they have made it plain that your ideas, good, bad or indifferent are not for them. Notice how irritating it gets after a while, how it starts to wear you down?

I believe you are checkmated my peace loving pal. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/grin.gif

I sincerely apologise for being too smart for you. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/grin.gif

There\'s no anonymity here for me at all. I post the url to my web site with every post. There\'s no aliasing, no faking. WYSIWYG.

And may I say what a sparkling example to humanity you are. I love you Tim. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/grin.gif

It\'s still ridiculous to assert that everyone will do as much bad as they think they can get away with. (My italics)

Tim, this is a false dichotomy. Stop thinking in black and white. I know that thinking “outside of the box” may be hard for you but give it a go. Just for me? Please?

Why do you think we have a state Tim? Why do you think we punish criminals? Have you tried to imagine life without the state. As I have pointed out, the state is there to minimize individual suffering. Take the state away and what are you left with? A lot of decent people like you and me eventually at each other’s throats (literally). People are capable of the most amazing things when they know they can get away with it. When the state breaks down, or a totalitarian state actively promotes evil, all hell breaks loose. Hear about the Turks in Bulgaria where they burned, killed and raped children (and women) Ever heard of Bosnia? Serbia? The Jewish holocaust? Ever heard of the Gulags? Hear about the soldiers who tossed infants in to the air so as to catch them on bayonets and later eat them in front of their mothers’ eyes? Hear about the first world war? Hear about Auschwitz, Dresden, the Burma railway? Hear about the Chinese cultural revolution? Hear about Hiroshima, Vietnam, Cambodia, Rwanda, Hear about the German citizens (not soldiers) who used daggers to cut Jewish babies out of their mothers’ wombs? And on and on and on and on and on and on…

These all took place in the 20th century alone. The stories from earlier centuries are much the same. DO the research.

You realize that TC Works are some very expensive plug-ins don\'t you? This just confirms that selling these things like they are hardware boxes doesn\'t work in this world.

Oh dear. Timmy I don’t believe for a second that you are really so DIM as you make yourself appear? Don’t you know quality products cost money to make? Don’t you think a fair return for high quality products is justified?
Tell me, what is it like in your world?

But you\'ll also notice that most companies offer scaled back versions of their products at a cheaper price with credit towards an upgrade.

There\'s Microsoft Office Small Business Edition -- $499 bought online from Microsoft.

Backoffice Small Business. – anywhere between $1000 and $3000 and more from what I can make out. (sources Microwarehouse, Outpost, PC Nation etc.)

So we have established that when you pay less, you get less. And your point is??? (At this point Timmy is smacked over the head, cartoon style, with a frying pan. PING!)

Face it Tim, you may think of yourself as the harbinger of hope for the sampling industry, but, in fact, you are full of half-thought-out BS. Unfortunately, the world is full of “prophets” like you.

Tim, this has been fun, but I fail to see why I should continue to debate with you. It is seldom I get the good luck to stumble across such an inflated ego as yours. You spout like an out-of-control pre-pubescent problem child and deserve to be treated accordingly. Ignored. Your monochromatic jihads fall on deaf ears amidst your squeals for attention, your (undeserved) arrogance, your humourlessness, your incapacity to even begin to understand a perspective other than your own and your singular lack of courtesy. In short, you are precisely the sort of person that gives me the low opinion of humanity I hold.

Peace,
Ian

[This message has been edited by Ian Stewart Cairns (edited 04-17-2001).]

Robert Kral

04-17-2001, 08:11 PM

Tim, this has been fun, but I fail to see why I should continue to debate with you.

Awww, c\'mon.....look how close this is to 100 posts. There\'s your reason (your only reason?) to keep debating!!

Rob
http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

Ian Stewart Cairns

04-17-2001, 08:25 PM

Awww, c\'mon.....look how close this is to 100 posts. There\'s your reason (your only reason?) to keep debating!!

Rob, I shall leave it in your capable hands. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/grin.gif

(Then again, I may chip in with some triple posts or viola player jokes to help bolster the numbers if required) http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/grin.gif

Ian

[This message has been edited by Ian Stewart Cairns (edited 04-17-2001).]

Haydn

04-17-2001, 08:44 PM

I think all these posts are breaking the bulletin board. I hit the back button and nothing happens on most of the posts in the Sample Libraries Discussions. This happens on three different computers! Anyone else having this problem?

donnie

04-17-2001, 09:01 PM

Its the ad banner\'s loading at the top. For some reason when another one loads and you hit the back button it takes you to the previous banner and so forth.

Donnie

Hans Adamson

04-17-2001, 10:08 PM

Haydn,

I thought it was my computer!

(Everybody has to pitch in here...)

See, - it also gave me 100 posts!

Hans

[This message has been edited by Hans Adamson (edited 04-17-2001).]

Robert Kral

04-17-2001, 10:15 PM

Happens here too. Thought it was just me!

Hey, does the 100th poster get a free sample library?

What does the envelope icon in the discussions list (you know, the one with all the flames spewing out of it right now), anyway, what does it do when the discussion hits 100?

(Chime in everyone...)

To keep on topic...yeah, I dig drums.

donnie

04-17-2001, 10:26 PM

I am the walrus!

SteveHanlon

04-17-2001, 11:02 PM

Coo-Coo-Cu-Choo
I am the eggman!

meltingmars

04-17-2001, 11:05 PM

surlaw eht ma I

just my 2 cents.
mars

Robert Kral

04-17-2001, 11:09 PM

All together now...

\"We are the world..........

KingIdiot

04-17-2001, 11:13 PM

can we just change the subject of this thread to \"madness\"?

------------------
Really...I am an Idiot

Chris Beck

04-17-2001, 11:38 PM

Just doing my part for 100 posts.

Come on people! Cool 7, isn\'t there something else you\'d like to say? Donnie? Anyone?

dsmusic

04-17-2001, 11:43 PM

I would love to have a marching drum core set :snare, concert toms & BD.
I for oneappreciate getting the full sample sets with all the possibiltys already mapped!

David Schwartz

esperlad

04-17-2001, 11:45 PM

I want the world! I want the whole world! hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahah!!!!!!!!

SCARBEE

04-17-2001, 11:48 PM

Who will be number 100?

BTW: about moral (Piracy...): Who was the roman who said:

Do less than legal and more than expected?

Thomas

Chris Beck

04-18-2001, 12:06 AM

Is it cheating if I double post intentionally to get the 100th post?

(OK, OK, I\'ll be satisfied with 99)

\"...bottles of beer on the wall... 99 bottles of beer...\"

Nick Phoenix

04-18-2001, 12:11 AM

Oompa Loompa Doopadi Doo. What do you get when you gobble down sweets? Eating as much as an elephant eats?

Nick Phoenix

04-18-2001, 12:16 AM

GLOAT GLOAT GLOAT !!! #100 baby!! Watch out Cool7! My ego has just runneth thou over.

gigaDiga

04-18-2001, 03:41 AM

There\'s always someone prepared to go one better.

Robert Kral

04-18-2001, 09:26 AM

Congratulations! Nick gets a free copy of one of his libraries! Well done!

So tell me Nick, back in your humble beginnings, when you first penned the post that
began with those words:\"I\'m always looking for better drum kits...\",
did you plan right from then to be the 100th poster?!

Aah, tis a day to be remembered.

[This message has been edited by Robert Kral (edited 04-18-2001).]

Ian Stewart Cairns

04-18-2001, 10:30 AM

Way to go guys! (wipes tear from eye) http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/grin.gif

If I may be permitted to quote a little Winston Churchill...

\"Never, in the history of online battles has so little been said so often by so many.

Future generations will look back upon us and remark, this surely was our finest hour!\" http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/grin.gif

Ian

[This message has been edited by Ian Stewart Cairns (edited 04-19-2001).]

Chris Beck

04-18-2001, 10:39 AM

But Nick,

My post was the 99th REPLY.

ie. the 100th POST.

What do i win again?

lanesp

04-18-2001, 04:06 PM

OK, I see how you are. Before, my excitement concerning the # of posts in this thread was dissmissed as not taking things seriously, it was all just a joke to me you said. Now everybody is on the bandwagon. I guess I am just ahead of my time. Or is it in the wrong place at the wrong time? Or right time . . . or something. Anyway, so there.

Sean

Haydn

04-18-2001, 05:22 PM

The forum is not wrapping correctly on the 3rd page of this post. 1 and 2 are fine. Anyone else having this issue? (Maybe we can go for 200)

donnie

04-18-2001, 05:49 PM

I heard that if you are the 200th post then your computers hard drive will format and you will go deaf within 6 months!!!

Donnie

gigaDiga

04-19-2001, 03:29 AM

Might I suggest to PapaChalk that a new Exploding Folder gif animation would be more suitable for threads over 100 posts, perhaps even some kind of mushroom cloud...

gigaDiga

p.s. lane you started laughing when we were trying to have a serious conversation. Now all the cronies have drawn their wagons in a circle and are trying to laugh this thread to death. So I laugh, not with you, but at you.

After all its your stuff which is being pirated.... and that\'s just funny.
The fact that you don\'t care... well that\'s f***ing hilarious!!!

Thanks for releiving the moral conscience of many a would be pirater. They can keep on copying and you guys can keep on laughing...

ho ho ho it\'s so funny.... lets keep this thread going to 199 and see if we can trick Donnie into giving the 200th post!

ha ha ha ha he he he he ho ho ho ho

MChilds

04-19-2001, 12:28 PM

Tim is right on the money. Sell the full libraries for people who need all this expensive \"inspiration\", but provide individual samples, with demos for the rest of us who waste 90% of our library money on bad samples or samples we don\'t need. Further, if you put up demos of the individual samples, we can get plenty of inspiration from them.

I\'ll gladly pay sample by sample without complaint. But while the world is pirating my music through Napster, and this is being accepted socially and even legally, I don\'t feel any ethical difficulty in pirating your (the developers) samples as long as you\'re ignoring the customers\' calls for meeting our individual needs.

Worra

04-19-2001, 01:00 PM

I\'ve followed this thread with interest. The stuff that have gotten my biggest attention are the things about new ways of selling/distributing samples. I, as most of you know, runs both Worra\'s Site and also Bigga Giggas.

We are thinking about new ways of selling our samples and the idea that you can pick out the gigs that you wan\'t appeals to me, If I where to buy samples, this is the way I would like to do it.....

1. Selling gigs one at the time and allowing to download directly are not an option for us. It would take to much time to manage and it would be a constant problem with bandwidth/Security.

2. I\'m thinking about a concept where you can choose from separate gigs and assemble a custom CD. The price on the CD depends on how much and what you put on it.

3. When your done, we burn/pack/send the custom CD to you.

4. We have to put an initial cost to cover the x-tra handling. Probably have to be around $15.

Would this appeal to you as sample CD buyers?

//Worra

MChilds

04-19-2001, 01:09 PM

Yes, Worra. That sounds great. If I could listen to some demos, specify which sounds to burn to CD, and have content producers assemble custom CDs, I would probably spend $1000 on sounds right now.

qwerbilzak

04-19-2001, 01:44 PM

As would I. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

Cool7s_Dad

04-19-2001, 01:59 PM

Worra,

Once again you lead the pack. My sincerest compliments.

1. Selling gigs one at the time and allowing to download directly are not an option for us. It would take to much time to manage and it would be a constant problem with bandwidth/Security.

Have you looked into the possibility of a third party static content caching outfit? There\'s one here in Dallas, http://www.epicRealm.com, (\"http://www.epicRealm.com,\") that cache\'s static content for Amazon.com. They maintain the server farms and possess more than enough bandwidth capability. There are others out there but this is the only one I have direct experience with.

2. I\'m thinking about a concept where you can choose from separate gigs and assemble a custom CD. The price on the CD depends on how much and what you put on it.

Another excellent idea. The band Yes recently did this for their _House of Yes_ tour. Since I\'m lucky enough to have a personal relationship with one of the band members, I know that the purpose behind it was to discourage bootlegs and piracy. Essentially, what they did was take the highest quality soundboard recordings of their live performances available to be assembled into a custom CD.

You could choose the Houston performance of _Heart of the Sunrise_ and/or the New Orleans performance of _Roundabout_, for instance. The cost of the CD varied according to the number/length of songs you chose. From all appearances it was a success. They sold roughly 10,000 of these CD\'s, and none of their live performances from this tour has surfaced in any of the usual clandestine locations.

3. When your done, we burn/pack/send the custom CD to you.

4. We have to put an initial cost to cover the x-tra handling. Probably have to be around $15.

This all sounds reasonable. It not only affords people the opportunity to target what they buy, it allows them to slowly build an extensive library over time without having to spend large chunks of cash all at once.

Would this appeal to you as sample CD buyers?

Very much so. Any reasonable alternative is more than welcome.

Peace,
Tim
http://www.elithic.com (\"http://www.elithic.com\")

P.S. So much for naysaying Ian.

Cool7s_Dad

04-19-2001, 02:23 PM

Originally posted by Ian Stewart Cairns:
There\'s Microsoft Office Small Business Edition -- $499 bought online from Microsoft.

Remind me never to hire you as a purchasing agent Ian. MS Office Small Business from http://www.cm-computers.com (\"http://www.cm-computers.com\") for $154. I\'ve seen it as recently as last week for $85 elsewhere.

Backoffice Small Business. – anywhere between $1000 and $3000 and more from what I can make out. (sources Microwarehouse, Outpost, PC Nation etc.)

Sheesh. $320 from http://www.computersworth.com. (\"http://www.computersworth.com.\") I\'ve seen this one as low as $259 in the last few days.

If you\'re paying prices like these for software, I\'ve got some beautiful land just 90 miles south of Key West you might be interested in Ian.

Peace,
Tim
http://www.elithic.com (\"http://www.elithic.com\")

Dos

04-19-2001, 05:14 PM

Worra,
I think your idea sounds good, especially since I don’t have a broad band connection (yet) the handling charge you mentioned seems justified in download time and burning a back up CD. I would consider hearing the sounds first to be very important, without hearing them it would be the same risk as now on a smaller scale.

nigel

04-19-2001, 06:58 PM

Okay.
So you\'ve all winged and wined
about prices and packages.

Just try and remember why you decided to buy a sample library.
Surely,it was to make music...
...and there is no \"value for money\"
ratio when it comes to \"music\"!

The Spice Girls\' latest CD costs
almost the same to purchase as The Beatles\' \"Abbey Road\".

Let me put it another way...
I\'ve got a 12 string vintage Rickenbacker which cost a fortune and I\'ve only been able
to use it twice, yet I also bought a Telecaster which I\'ve used on loads of sessions!

Should I write to Rickenbacker and complain that they ripped me off?
Should I advise them to change the way they work and produce a different product?
Should I ask them to sell me one string at a time so that I would only have to pay a 12th of the price?

A sample library is a musical instrument.

I would suggest in most cases it is not the sound library that has its\' faults, but the musicians\' limitations.

Remember the meletron and how feeble it sounded?...Then try listening to \"Strawberry Fields\".
Should George Martin have winged and wined about the quality of the cassette samples
and complained about the cost?

Most people, it seems to me, buy a Steinway sample and play chop sticks, and then complain that the library has limitations!

We are living in an amazing age, and people like Donnie and Dan Dean are giving us the tools to create the \"fantastic\"!

It really is up to you...and not the \"value for money\" sound library.

YOU CAN ABUSE IT ...OR YOU CAN USE IT.
YOU CAN BREAK IT...OR YOU CAN MAKE IT.

[This message has been edited by nigel (edited 04-19-2001).]

Nick Phoenix

04-19-2001, 08:10 PM

To be perfectly honest, the idea of downloading gigs or making custom cds is way too much of a hassle. It would be a full time job. What about the documentation and packaging? Errors? Obviously not worth the effort. I am also convinced that you would make less money that way anyway. Also, no one has mentioned the fact that many of these libraries are in other sample formats. Downloading Akai samples is completely impractical for many people!!!!! Getting the samples into your sampler requires a specific setup which many people don\'t have.

Cool7s_Dad

04-19-2001, 09:57 PM

Originally posted by Nick Phoenix:
To be perfectly honest, the idea of downloading gigs or making custom cds is way too much of a hassle. It would be a full time job.

Then hire someone else to do it. Here\'s a list of companies that do custom CD compilations:
http://dir.yahoo.com/Business_and_Economy/Shopping_and_Services/Music/CDs__Records__and_Tapes/Custom_Compilations/ (\"http://dir.yahoo.com/Business_and_Economy/Shopping_and_Services/Music/CDs__Records__and_Tapes/Custom_Compilations/\")

Another obvious source of help might be Worra. If he figures out the methodology for this, maybe you could throw in with him somehow... perhaps even on a trial basis.

What about the documentation and packaging?

Your doc is already in online help form. Packaging is superfluous... but could easily be displayed on the web. In the case of custom CD\'s, there are a number of options.

Errors?

I don\'t recall receiving a new QLG CD from you when you realized you hadn\'t done the pitch bend thing. You can\'t possibly deliver any less customer service than that. [OTOH, when GlassTrax realized that my Jinjee\'s brass and string CD\'s weren\'t legitimate, they offered to give me my money back or replace the CD\'s with ones of equivalent value.]

Obviously not worth the effort.

Perhaps it\'ll become less obvious over time.

I am also convinced that you would make less money that way anyway.

So it is about money, not art, after all (and there\'s no shame in that... it just exposes your disengenuousness here). Perhaps you\'re right, though. In those situations, a pilot project might be in order to determine if that\'s the case.

One encouraging sign is this message on Worra\'s download page:

\"This page generates a massive amount of traffic; we have a monthly bandwidth limitation with our hosting. We are expanding all the time, but if a server is about to go over it\'s limitation, we have to cut it off. We then re-open the server at the beginning of the next month. This means that some GIG\'s may not be available. We\'ll keep updating this page as to which are and are not available.\"

Also, no one has mentioned the fact that many of these libraries are in other sample formats.

Perhaps that\'s because this is a GigaSampler forum.

Downloading Akai samples is completely impractical for many people!!!!!

For once we agree. While there is software out there to create ISO images, there are indeed a number of technical difficulties that would be too difficult to overcome for most users. But this is one of the major technological differences between hardware samplers and Giga. It\'s easy to download and use samples for Giga.

Look Nick, you may be right about everything you say here, but none of this prevents you from releasing less bloated libraries on CD that would allow your customers more choice eg. the XSample model. For example, a CD with nothing but your Fretless King, Marshall Death Power Chords, and Garage Stack Lead, for example, would be an excellent deal for people looking to do some hard rock type composition. I can\'t see how this would be such a major hassle, but I am an idiot, so what do I know? http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

Peace,
Tim
http://www.elithic.com (\"http://www.elithic.com\")

Synth2k

04-19-2001, 10:34 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Nick Phoenix:
To be perfectly honest, the idea of downloading gigs or making custom cds is way too much of a hassle. It would be a full time job. What about the documentation and packaging? Errors? Obviously not worth the effort. I am also convinced that you would make less money that way anyway. Also, no one has mentioned the fact that many of these libraries are in other sample formats. Downloading Akai samples is completely impractical for many people!!!!! Getting the samples into your sampler requires a specific setup which many people don\'t have. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hey there Nick,

There is actually a really cool automated hardware setup that you can get that automates the entire process of custom burning, packaging and CD labeling. I\'ve worked with some similar hardware before that does this, the technology is really slick. You can even integrate them with a web site (this is what MP3.com does with their DAM cds). Basically the software on the web server recieves an order from the client, it sends the request to the burning server where it pulls whatever files the user requested from the database. Then it\'ll burn a custom CD for the client, label it and package it (with the higher end models, some of them require manual packaging) and the software processes the sale through your merchant account. All you have to do with these things is take the finished product and ship it to the client - it\'s really neat. They even have automated CD lifting arms that pop the CD into the highspeed burner. You just stack in a couple hundred blank discs with a thermal surface on them from a spindle and it does the rest. Most of the new ones even have thermal printers built in so it can write custom track names/cd titles right on the cd (at least the ones Mp3.com uses). The end result looks very pro as well. Costly and it might be way too cost prohibitive for distributing sample libraries, but still very cool :-)

Ryan.

------------------
Sonic Control
www..com (\"http://www..com\")
Giga Users Network at
www..com/gigasampler/ (\"http://www..com/gigasampler/\")

Nick Phoenix

04-20-2001, 12:24 AM

Tim, I never called you an idiot.
Dealing with all the details of pressing and releasing a cd is a large task. I would\'nt want to prolong or complicate that process any more than I have to. Hiring someone to take care of this stuff is not financially possible, unless you are a distributor. Does that give you some idea of the kind of money that is involved? Or do you think we are all millionaires?
Mentioning other formats is ENTIRELY relevant, if you want to discuss the buisiness end of things.
Your comment about it being about money and not art is completely lame and childish. If it was just about money, I might look into some of the schemes you propose. They are not entirely unreasonable. I\'m just not interested in that mess. I would rather develop a new library. Get it now????

gigaDiga

04-20-2001, 05:09 AM

Nick\'s different arguments as to why he won\'t
sell his libraries off in chunks,or as a
reduced LE edition, at a cheaper
user-friendly price....

1) It\'s art; selling just the acoustic
guitars or heavy rock guitars from QLG or
selling a gigaBrass LE would be like tearing
off a single sunflower from a Van Gogh.

2) It won\'t make any money; there are more
rich people out there who want to buy
libraries at high cost than there are poorer
people who would buy smaller versions.

3) It would just be a mess to do; I can\'t be
bothered to make stuff for people to buy.

Seems like your squirming Nick, plucking
reasons from a hat. Maybe you\'re wishing you
never started this thread in the first place?

All you developers know, as I do too, that
stripping off a couple of instruments from a
set is mind bogglingly easy, no effort at
all. You also know that if you took just the
trumpets from your brass library, or a snare
from your percussion library, it wouldn\'t
compromise the artwork that went into that
trumpet or that snare. Going further, turning
stereo samples into mono, using less samples
when creating an instrument, etc are stupidly
quick and simple things to do. In fact if you
disagree then your in the wrong business. So
why no smaller CD options or an LE disk?

In terms of money the Ritz in London charges
£20 for a steak meal and MacDonalds charges
90 pence for a burger.... who do you think is
making more money? Obviously the steak meal
is gonna be beautiful compared to the bigmac,
but economically you cannot argue that you
will be poorer if you sell versions of your
stuff at lower prices. So why no smaller CD
options or an LE disk?

Unlike a previous posters suggestion, these
libraries are not like albums (for a start
they don\'t cost as little as £15). They are
tools, beautifully constructed, but tools
nonetheless. What would you pay more for
Jimi Hendrix or Jimi\'s guitar?
Of course Jimi is priceless, but in our
warped world of consumerism his guitar is
really expensive. This is the bottom line...

You developers don\'t want to accomodate your
poorer potential clients because all you see
is $$$ not $. It\'s clear that you are selling
a product to a consumer but you live in some
dream world where you are selling art to
connoisseurs. That\'s why you can\'t be
bothered to accomodate joe public... because he\'s a heathen who wouldn\'t understand the
genius of your art.

Once again this Sample Libraries Forum has
shown the pompous arrogant miasm which you
developers live in... I\'m glad I\'m not you.

Of course I\'m not whinning and moaning and
trying to change your ways (your too deluded
to change them anyway,as lane pointed out),
I\'m just amazed that, after a couple of
reasonable suggestions to make your libraries
accessible to poorer musicians, what your
entire argument comes down to is that you
can\'t be bothered... you can\'t be bothered
to make a CD which I can buy off you...
you can\'t even be bothered to make money, too
much hassle.

Well forgive me if I feel like the lowly slum
dweller and you the great beneveolent
landlord.
No wonder pirates want to rob the rich and
give to the poor. At least you\'ve made it
clear to any poor musicians where they should
go to to get any LE editions of your
libraries... afterall we\'re not gonna get
them from you are we?

peace http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif (no symbol for an ironic smile)

gigaDiga

(apologies to worra/papachalk/trachtman/etc
my comments do not apply to all developers,
just a few have got my back up.)

Chris Beck

04-20-2001, 12:11 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by gigaDiga:

In terms of money the Ritz in London charges
£20 for a steak meal and MacDonalds charges
90 pence for a burger.... who do you think is
making more money? Obviously the steak meal
is gonna be beautiful compared to the bigmac,
but economically you cannot argue that you
will be poorer if you sell versions of your
stuff at lower prices. So why no smaller CD
options or an LE disk?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Same reason there are no 90 pence burgers on the menu at the ritz.

Are you also sending whiny emails to the ritz complaining about their refusal to cater to London\'s poor burger-eaters?

- Chris Beck

Robert Kral

04-20-2001, 12:36 PM

I gotta admit though, If I could purchase just the middle eastern sounding string phrases/ licks, and the Taiko Drums from Rare Instruments I\'d buy those patches TODAY.

As it is I\'ll probably wait and purchase Rare Instruments in about three months.

Cool7s_Dad

04-20-2001, 01:29 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Chris Beck:
Same reason there are no 90 pence burgers on the menu at the ritz.

Are you also sending whiny emails to the ritz complaining about their refusal to cater to London\'s poor burger-eaters?

- Chris Beck<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So the only thing on the menu at the Ritz is a steak dinner? Not even an option for a Mad Cow vs. Foot and Mouth version? Harsh.

Peace,
Tim
http://www.elithic.com (\"http://www.elithic.com\")

dandean

04-20-2001, 05:20 PM

Greetings,

I have mentioned before that I designed the Dan Dean Solo Woodwinds with single instrument sales in mind. This is why the DDSWW binder has removable pages for single instruments to be purchased and added. The single instruments are/will be available for $99.00 MSRP each. If you just need a Clarinet or a Flute, this seems a fair option in my view.

Thanks,
DD

Nick Phoenix

04-20-2001, 05:29 PM

gigadiga,
I think they are all good reasons. I don\'t think it\'s squirming. The \"work of art\" comment has been blown way out of porportion. What I meant was; as a whole a library can be something greater than the individual parts. If you downloaded just the solo trombone sustains from QLBrass, you would probably think \" This library sucks\". Actually, lite versions of my libraries are now available from East West. I just had nothing to do with them.

Robert Kral,
Eventually, you will probably buy Rare Instruments. If you bought just a few samples now, Who is to say that you will buy all the rest later. I would rather you bought the whole library at some point and had a favorable general impression. Frankly, no one will be happy with all the samples.

nigel

04-20-2001, 07:10 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by gigaDiga:
Unlike a previous posters suggestion, these
libraries are not like albums (for a start
they don\'t cost as little as £15). They are
tools, beautifully constructed, but tools
nonetheless. What would you pay more for
Jimi Hendrix or Jimi\'s guitar?
Of course Jimi is priceless, but in our
warped world of consumerism his guitar is
really expensive. This is the bottom line...

MY,GOD!
HOW WARPED ARE YOU?
\"What would you PAY more for Jimi or his guitar?\"

Is the next step from sampling an instrument... sampling a personality?

You\'ve all been winging and moaning about the cost of a sample library...What next...
You\'ll be winging and winning about the price of a PERSONALITY?

\"Oh! how dare you charge me 50p for being
Jimi Hendricks when it only costs me 40p for being John Lennon?!!\"

Get a life!

As for your comment on the price of an album only costing £15...it is all relevant.

My first purchase of a sample library was AO.
It cast me £800.
I also had to buy a sample playback module with memory which cost me another £1500.
I then only used a few samples from the first 2 dics...
and then sold the sound track
for £30.000.

Should I winge and wine?

My original argument stands,...
If you\'re into the ratio of \"value for money\"...Then let yourself make music make money.

If you want to winge and moan...then perhaps
you DO need to purchase a sample personality\"!

The tools have never been better...

WAKE UP!!!!

Robert Kral

04-20-2001, 07:26 PM

Nick: I am actually in FAVOR of the traditional approach to selling libraries, because I really would like to see you and all sound developers be rewarded financially for your hard work. However I was working on something today and honestly I felt if I had online access to one or two patches WHEN I NEEDED THEM, I would have purchased them instantly.

(Another example of this is that some of us work under severe deadlines and if the sound isn\'t available, we might just make do with something else that is available straight away (ie old samples in our libraries), as opposed to even being able to wait over a weekend for a library to be delivered).

Just as I might purchase a few patches, then end up not buying the whole library, likewise I might not purchase those few patches at all NOR buy the whole library.

If there were several hundred people like me in that position, they might buy a few patches and not the whole library, leaving you with \"x\" amount of dollars, as opposed to zero dollars, from those consumers.

Again, I must say I am still in support of the traditional approach, but I\'m just offering food for thought as we think this through.

[This message has been edited by Robert Kral (edited 04-20-2001).]

SCARBEE

04-21-2001, 12:08 AM

About buying single instruments - The Scarbee bass libraries are sold this way. We sample one instrument at a time and one playing style: Slap, Fingered, Picked etc. Eventually we will have a many different basses on their own CD. Still we want all the pick-up settings of an instrument on one CD.

About the complexity of libraries - yes our libraries are made of MANY samples, but we also include an \"easy\" or light version on each bass. Should we sell a special light version? No - then the fun would stop for me I guess... It has to be magic for me to make Giga-libraries - otherwise I would make sample libraries for Akai...

About prizing - I somewhat agree with Nigel. If you wanna earn money you gotta spend money. Still the prize for our libraries seems fair: $149 for 3000 carefully recorded samples? You can even get it 20% cheaper other places on the net.

About Online sale with instant download? That would be cool - if the security is OK and you can download 1 GB...

Thomas www.scarbee.com (\"http://www.scarbee.com\")

[This message has been edited by SCARBEE (edited 04-21-2001).]

[This message has been edited by SCARBEE (edited 04-21-2001).]

lanesp

04-21-2001, 08:42 AM

Libraries are not pirated because they are expensive (which seems to be a reoccuring theme here). You would copy a $15 Jimi Hendrix cd just as quickly as you would copy an $800 library. Give me a break. Those of you suggesting that you would stop pirating if libraries were more resonably priced are kidding yourselves (and us). Free is free. So, you would feel less guilty pirating that $800 library if it was only $100? By all means, please let my ease your guilt.

gigadiga - Just as long as they are laughing . . . that\'s all I desire. Gifts of myself so that others may feel joy.

Dos

04-21-2001, 10:37 AM

I didn’t realize the significance of 100 posts but the discussion has become enlightening since that. I am new to any sort of sampling and just bought Gigastudio. I have no sound library at all. As a potential customer I’ll say this to any developers

As I begin my search for sounds, I hear from your customers, (and your competitions customers) the same thing. Every disk I buy only has a few sounds that I use, and now I’ve heard it from Nick. Well $300 is too much for a few of your sounds, the same way $15 is to much for a CD just because I heard one song on the radio. So Nick if you begin to offer your product the way I am looking to buy it I will look somewhere else for my trombone sounds.
I also need to say I have never used napster and never will out of respect to fellow musicians who are asking me to pay for they’re music and I’ll be the same with you, and software companies, but in your case I have options

nigel

04-21-2001, 10:25 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Dos:
I didn’t realize the significance of 100 posts but the discussion has become enlightening since that. I am new to any sort of sampling and just bought Gigastudio. I have no sound library at all. As a potential customer I’ll say this to any developers

As I begin my search for sounds, I hear from your customers, (and your competitions customers) the same thing. Every disk I buy only has a few sounds that I use, and now I’ve heard it from Nick. Well $300 is too much for a few of your sounds, the same way $15 is to much for a CD just because I heard one song on the radio. So Nick if you begin to offer your product the way I am looking to buy it I will look somewhere else for my trombone sounds.
I also need to say I have never used napster and never will out of respect to fellow musicians who are asking me to pay for they’re music and I’ll be the same with you, and software companies, but in your case I have options<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

DEAR DOS
TWIT!

nigel

04-21-2001, 10:59 PM

Soup is very good for you and only costs 30p.
a can...and you can buy it at any supermarket.

Beans are also good for you...
but they make you fart.(but they\'re cheap,and farting is great fun)!

If you hop on one leg
you will save your carpet two fold,if you\'ve got good balance.

Perhaps an inflatable doll is the answer
...just think of the fascinating conversation you may have about train spotting.

If none of above...
perhaps music is the answer!

nigel

04-21-2001, 11:14 PM

Cows go MOOO!
Dogs go WOOF!
Cats go MEOOW!

Where do samplers go..?

Nick Phoenix

04-22-2001, 12:30 AM

I like this Nigel guy!
HOW ABOUT 150 POSTS??? COMEON!

Blob

04-22-2001, 05:38 PM

Nigel wrote: \"where do samplers go..?\"

Apparently the go to the Amazon basin to sample trees falling when no one is looking!

My this IS fun http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

------------------
The Blob

gigaDiga

04-23-2001, 04:47 AM

Apologies for the anger of my previous mail.

You guys love to win arguments and I suppose this thred has been a colorful addition to this forum. But there\'s nothing left to argue about. So you might just want to write a load of rubbish and see if you can hit 150 or even 200!

Nigel, you weird individual, if you broadened your thoughts for a bit you might understand that it is not I that is mad but the world around me which attributes more ACTUAL worth to a stupid guitar than the person who plays it.

My youth was spent raving and going to free parties. There music liberated the masses, giving them an insight into the creative realms of sound. Many kids bought SH101\'s, M1\'s, or 1210\'s and started, not just listening to music, but getting involved in it. As a result over england now there are thousands of people, young & old, making music and composing in their bedrooms. They might not be successful but that does not mean that they are not getting joy and creativity from music. Music is free, it is the reverberation in the air, it is the expression of feeling through sound, it is the ignitor of the dance, a dance which is also free. I made the conscious decision when I was young not to make music my profession because I knew that if you started compromising and mixing music with money, the joy would go and the freedom and release which it gives me would probably drain to some dull 9 to 5 chore.

We are on opposite sides of the tracks.... I make music for joy, you make tools for an industry. I guess I am the bohemian artist and you are the factory making elite paint at elite prices to elite people. I shall use house paint and focus on the fun of creation rather than the anal perfectionism of \"arrangement\".

have fun,

gigaDiga

Chadwick

04-23-2001, 05:33 AM

Giga,

I write music for work and play, and I\'ve got to say there\'s nothing more dissatisfying than trying to write an expressive brass part with a sample which is more reminiscent of a car horn, or a guitar part with a sample which sounds like a banjo.

Yeah, having mediocre sounds doesn\'t actually stop anyone from writing a piece which is captivating, but it certainly makes it harder.

It\'s all a balancing act in the end isn\'t it?

Kahhhhnnn 200!

Robert Kral

04-23-2001, 10:35 AM

Re: Kaaaahn200,

Forget 200 posts, gimmee 200 PAGES!!!

nigel

04-23-2001, 02:10 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by gigaDiga:

\"Nigel, you weird individual, if you broadened your thoughts for a bit you might understand that it is not I that is mad but the world around me.....\"

Hmm! They all say that...Don\'t they!!!

nigel

04-23-2001, 02:19 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by gigaDiga:
I shall use house paint and focus on the fun of creation rather than the anal perfectionism of \"arrangement\".

have fun,

gigaDiga[/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Must admit, I haven\'t tried it that way.
Doesn\'t it hurt?!

04-23-2001, 03:26 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by lanesp:
Libraries are not pirated because they are expensive (which seems to be a reoccuring theme here). You would copy a $15 Jimi Hendrix cd just as quickly as you would copy an $800 library. Give me a break. Those of you suggesting that you would stop pirating if libraries were more resonably priced are kidding yourselves (and us). Free is free. So, you would feel less guilty pirating that $800 library if it was only $100? By all means, please let my ease your guilt.

gigadiga - Just as long as they are laughing . . . that\'s all I desire. Gifts of myself so that others may feel joy.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No. You probably wouldn\'t stop piracy because something gets more cheap but you would sell much more to those who do not support piracy although they can not afford something.
I like the idea of just buying an instrument that I need for a fair price. I won\'t be able to afford all those great libraries but I would want to have access to a few instruments of them. Why should I buy a CD with 50 different kind of guitars I would want just the Strat from?

------------------
O.H.

04-23-2001, 03:27 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by lanesp:
Libraries are not pirated because they are expensive (which seems to be a reoccuring theme here). You would copy a $15 Jimi Hendrix cd just as quickly as you would copy an $800 library. Give me a break. Those of you suggesting that you would stop pirating if libraries were more resonably priced are kidding yourselves (and us). Free is free. So, you would feel less guilty pirating that $800 library if it was only $100? By all means, please let my ease your guilt.

gigadiga - Just as long as they are laughing . . . that\'s all I desire. Gifts of myself so that others may feel joy.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No. You probably wouldn\'t stop piracy because something gets more cheap & there wouldn\'t be more piracy also BUT you would sell much more to those who do not support piracy although they can not afford something.

I like the idea of just buying an instrument that I need for a fair price. I won\'t be able to afford all those great libraries but I would want to have access to a few instruments of them. Why should I buy a CD with 50 different kind of guitars I would want just the Strat from?

------------------
O.H.

dsmusic

04-23-2001, 10:47 PM

I would really like to hear some well recordrd Drum Line/ Marching percussion. The tight piccolo snares, melodic concert toms and marching bass drums are a unique sound, Sampling both group and individual drums would be very welcome.
Although i\'m not against smaller sample package availabity, I for one enjoy the variety of a well executed complete library. I usually feel it\'s worth the $. I do however wonder if lower prices would help with volume business & piracy.

David Schwartz

donnie

04-23-2001, 11:07 PM

David,

We have a marching percussion library. You can hear it at http://www.dssoundware.com (\"http://www.dssoundware.com\")

Donnie

dandean

04-23-2001, 11:50 PM

I must say that I feel a bit perplexed by a previous post of which the essence was \"as long as the pirating of copyrighted sample libraries falls outside the U.S., things are subject to international laws and therefore pirating is acceptable.\" I really am compelled to comment on this (why hasn\'t anyone else?).

First, as a sound developer, I am not Microsoft. I\'m not even Oracle. DDP is essentially me. I compose for a living, and use the proceeds from my craft to underwrite my libraries. It is difficualt to break even. I have not broken even on most of my products. I do not drive a Baby Benz, like some of those who would mindlessly copy my software and freely distribute it to others. I drive a 1983 Toyota truck with 104,000 miles on it. I have kids who need things. If people outside the U.S believe it is acceptable and legal to copy my libraries, they are wrong. It is not. If people in countries outside the U.S. feel this way, then maybe we as developers should rethink the pricing structure of our products, increasing the international prices to 50% above the U.S. MSRP. Man, I cannot believe you guys. This kind of mentality is completely counterproductive. OH has asked me to \"please, please, please develop a horn section library\". Let me tell you, with a post like the previous one, that will be about the last thing I feel like spending about $15,000 on. If you guys want more great stuff, this kind of thinking must go away immediately. I\'m not kidding, this mindset is totally unacceptable.

Bummed,
Dan Dean

SiliconAudioLabs

04-24-2001, 01:44 AM

Somebody scream : A - FRICKIN\' - MEN!!!

Boy THAT was a bullseye, Dan!

I feel your hurt there, Ouch!

And now I gotta try to sleep after a long session and reading that post!

The FINAL STRAW - the one that breaks the camel\'s back , is when these damn thieves, after they STEAL our stuff, will whine: \"now it doesn\'t sound real to me\" or \"this stuff is lame and not worthit!\"

WORTH IT?

WORTH IT!!!?!?

Worth what? The effort to copy it?

So now you guys have this big plastic junky box with some metal and lights and drives.

And all your friends go: \"oooohhh, you must be reeeeeeeeeal smart to be able to THAT music stuff on computers - and discover you can get little to NO sounds for it.

Remember that song: \"Bye-bye Miss American Pie, drove my Chevy to the Levy.........the day the music died\"

That\'s what it\'ll be like. Get your microphones out and ready. You DO have microphones to sample ALL this stuff yourselves, right?

SCARBEE

04-24-2001, 02:21 AM

Thanks Dan Dean...

Thomas

SCARBEE

04-24-2001, 02:22 AM

Thanks Dan Dean...

Thomas

04-24-2001, 02:32 AM

\"If people outside the U.S believe it is acceptable and legal to copy my libraries, they are wrong. It is not. If people in countries outside the U.S. feel this way, then maybe we as developers should rethink the pricing structure of... Man, I cannot believe you guys. This kind of mentality is completely counterproductive.
Dan Dean[/B][/QUOTE]\"

Mr. Dean.
NO.NO.NO!!!
You completely misunderstand my mail in the other topic. I DID NOT speak about piracy & buying copied samples at all. I spoke about LEGALLY bought samples one does not need any longer and wants to sell.
Most Sample-library-producers forbid exactly this! And while I think it to be a bit unfair & just a \"little bit\" silly to have to pay hundreds, if not thousands of dollars & than are not allowed to resell it later (probably even have to destroy it) if I do not need it any longer (like my used Fender) or find out that this wasn\'t what I wanted (like my Seersystems Reality)- what I said was: The discussion on the best service forum (that was even directed to best service-members)lead to a statement from best-service that in Germany law allows to resell LEGALLY bought samples (NOT copies).

Sure Dan: I do not know if the guy I am buying the samples from hasn\'t made copies. But as a buyer one IS NOT responsible for anything the seller was or is doing.
In Germany we can resell used Software as well & I have seen on eBay America that people sell their old Cakewalk Audio 9 whatever... they could have made copies of the program as well, right? Isn\'T that the same?

regards

------------------
O.H.

PS: No need to raise prices or stop producing great libraries...! THAT would be COUNTERPRODUCTIVE!

[This message has been edited by OH (edited 04-24-2001).]

04-24-2001, 02:36 AM

Sorry. Was posted twice...

[This message has been edited by OH (edited 04-24-2001).]

Nick Phoenix

04-24-2001, 03:33 AM

Oh,
Sample libraries are not commodities. If you have an old library that you don\'t want to use any more, then so be it. Hopefully you got some use out of it. Selling it to someone else is the same as making a copy and selling it. It deprives developers of legitimate sales. Besides, most people would keep a copy of the disk, even after selling it (just in case).
I think people should realize that, unless you are making alot of money in music, you probably won\'t be able to afford all the best libraries, just like you can\'t afford a $100,000 console. C\'est la vie. I think its pretty damn amazing what you can get for your money, though. Dan Dean states that he hasn\'t broken even on any of his libraries. That should tell you something!!!!

04-24-2001, 04:20 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Nick Phoenix:
[B]Oh,
\"Sample libraries are not commodities. If you have an old library that you don\'t want to use any more, then so be it. Hopefully you got some use out of it. Selling it to someone else is the same as making a copy and selling it. It deprives developers of legitimate sales. Besides, most people would keep a copy of the disk, even after selling it (just in case).\"

Dear Nick!

Just let me say again: It was not me who decided it to be that way. After a long discussion on the German best-service-forum there was the conclusion that this \"licensee-agreement\" stuff is without consequence in Germany. It is probably even ILLEGAL according to German law. And the conclusion didn\'t just came from an unkwon replier to my question but from bestservice themselves.

regards

------------------
O.H.

04-24-2001, 04:21 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Nick Phoenix:
[B]Oh,
\"Sample libraries are not commodities. If you have an old library that you don\'t want to use any more, then so be it. Hopefully you got some use out of it. Selling it to someone else is the same as making a copy and selling it. It deprives developers of legitimate sales. Besides, most people would keep a copy of the disk, even after selling it (just in case).\"

Dear Nick!

Just let me say again: It was not me who decided it to be that way. After a long discussion on the German best-service-forum there was the conclusion that this \"licensee-agreement\" stuff is without consequence in Germany. It is probably even ILLEGAL according to German law. And the conclusion didn\'t just came from an unknown replier to my question but from bestservice themselves.

regards

------------------
O.H.

gigaDiga

04-24-2001, 05:02 AM

> Dan Dean states that he hasn\'t broken even on any of his libraries.
> That should tell you something!!!!

Yeah there\'s not a big enough market for the price of samples he\'s selling.

04-24-2001, 05:22 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by gigaDiga:
> Dan Dean states that he hasn\'t broken even on any of his libraries.
> That should tell you something!!!!

Yeah there\'s not a big enough market for the price of samples he\'s selling.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

giga-man: In all fairness & although I would like to see samples be more cheap, would want to have access to just one instrument of a 100instruments-library etc.:
I feel Mr. Dean\'s prices to be \"polite\" (& this I do not state just to get my Pop/Rock/Jazz-Brass-library)

kind regards

------------------
O.H.

gigaDiga

04-24-2001, 06:38 AM

Yeah OH, you\'re right I\'ll back off. Just couldn\'t resist helping Nick wander into the trap he set for himself.

Bytheway, no hard feelings to all of you lot, it\'s been fun having an argy bargy, a bit like going down the pub on a friday night. I think it\'s been quite an interesting discussion.
You can also rest assured that, if I ever grow tired of my own samples I shall be saving hard for some good libraries. I shall never, however, be in the frivilous position of being able to chuck $800 at a library just cause I want to see what it sounds like, so you can rest assured, when I do start saving, I shall be demoing where I can and asking other users what their honest opinions are.
In that respect this forum is invaluable and I\'m really glad some people are piping up when they\'re not satisfied.

I\'ve always had doubts as to whether the sample developers themselves should be on this forum. The downside of their presence is they sometimes try to stiffle criticism by making those who criticise feel uncomfortable. I understand the need to defend their products but us users often find criticism very helpful. Imagine the kind of war that would break out if we had a rating system for libraries! But, as far as I\'m concerned, I think that would be a really good idea and would help to guide us through the minefield of sampleCD\'s.

I also find it stupid. Some guy wrote in about a string library he really liked. And loads of people slated him cause it wasn\'t anyway near as good as the professional libraries. Then it turned out that he was after a particular sound which his library really suited. This kind of mob tactics to roast people or fight off criticism really isn\'t very helpful to those of us who are interested in what different libraries or cheaper alternatives are like.

In short I don\'t actually mind the presence of Developers. But if they\'re gonna try and WIN arguments all the time then they\'re gonna get some fight back.

Synth2k

04-24-2001, 01:57 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by gigaDiga:
Imagine the kind of war that would break out if we had a rating system for libraries! But, as far as I\'m concerned, I think that would be a really good idea and would help to guide us through the minefield of sampleCD\'s.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

We have a rating system on SC for the libraries that we do review. Although I feel that rating libraries and products is a great thing, the rating given by the reviewer isn\'t the last word and shouldn\'t be taken as the last word I don\'t think. That\'s why we have a user rating system - generally the user ratings seems to more or less match the reviewer ratings and I really think it helps to balance things out. I\'m hoping positive ratings by both reviewers and users on a deserving good quality product will help to reward the sample developers who deserve the sale for the hard work while also rewarding their potential customers (folks like you and me) after feeling confident that whatever product they\'re going to plunk $100-$400+ on won\'t be such a gamble.

Ryan.

------------------
Sonic Control
www..com (\"http://www..com\")
Giga Users Network at
www..com/gigasampler/ (\"http://www..com/gigasampler/\")

Blob

04-24-2001, 03:26 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by dandean:
[B]I must say that I feel a bit perplexed by a previous post of which the essence was \"as long as the pirating of copyrighted sample libraries falls outside the U.S., things are subject to international laws and therefore pirating is acceptable.\" I really am compelled to comment on this (why hasn\'t anyone else?).

If this is refering to the \'second hand\' thread, then i really think you have missed the point entirely.

There was NEVER any mention of copying/pirating (although my attempt at \'humor\' might not translate to well)
or to my mind nor was there any implication of \'lets steal dans work and make our get-away in this nice new \"baby Benz\" http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif

I was just making sure that the \'disks\' would be all above board and legal (apparently not,so my friend decided NOT to sell them to me,and also made sure i wiped them from my disk!)

I sort of get the feeling there is an \'us and them\' kind of thing going on in here http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif

ps.Nick,any chance you\'ll be using \"I think people should realize that, unless you are making alot of money in music, you probably won\'t be able to afford all the best libraries, just like you can\'t afford a $100,000 console. C\'est la vie.\" as your next advertizing slogan? http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif

Haydn

04-24-2001, 03:45 PM

I remember not to many years ago that I wanted the sounds of the Sequential Circuit\'s Prophet 5 synth. To get 120 presets and an instrument that only played 5 notes and one voice at a time cost me $4,000. The price had just lowered $1,000 and I thought I got a good deal. The version of the synth for $5,000 only came with 40 presets. The price of most sounds (synths, mellotrons, organs) cost from $1,000 for a monophonic synth to $100,000 or more for the samplers of the time. You paid the price if you wanted the cutting edge sounds.

It amazes me that I can buy these high quality sample libraries for $100 to $1,000. When you factor in inflation, this is a great deal. Never have musicians been able to acquire sounds for such a reasonable price. Each library is like buying a new synth with the cutting edge sounds. To purchase one sound at a time would be like buying one knob from a minimoog.

04-24-2001, 06:37 PM

\"Each library is like buying a new synth with the cutting edge sounds. To purchase one sound at a time would be like buying one knob from a minimoog.[/B][/QUOTE]\"

You are right, but some would be more than just happy to just have one single knob from a minimoog & at least there would be NO discussion at all about not being allowed to sell the knob (one probably even could make a fortune selling it... he,he-just joking)

------------------
O.H.

04-24-2001, 07:00 PM

O.k. Who is the hacker? After the first questions where some of the mails are gone they suddenly reappeared but the new ones were cancelled. Which & especially whose nerve did we touch?

So: Give us back Nicks reply to gigadiga (even if we don\'t necessily like it)!

------------------
O.H.

gigaDiga

04-25-2001, 08:06 AM

I\'ve been thinking about this whole sample library business and it strikes me that it\'s all rather fragile.
On another thread Nick has had to admit that if you are NOT going to use samples comercially you can do anything you want with them (copy, swap, frisbee). I don\'t feel comfortable with that and I feel for developers. It seems that the law has left them exposed in this way. I wouldn\'t feel right having copies of their stuff, my ethics and sense of justice would naturally want to pay for them.
So what it seems to come down to is an implicit trust between the developer and the artist. They trust that, even if we are not using their samples comercially, we will do the decent thing and pay for them. We trust that they will give us a chance to pay.

Upon refelection this second trust is what cool7sdad and myself have been trying to bring light to. Neither of us are pirates or casual copyists. We are people who feel a genuine need to pay for what we own. In this respect we have been trying to shine the light on ways which you could help us buy into your products, even if it\'s a trumpet at a time.
I understand if some of you have considered this to be moaning from poor people who can\'t afford decent samples. This is not true... alot of decent samples ARE cheap. I think our focus, from the very start, was more towards these huge libraries, or libraries with lots of very similar instruments on them.
The question, why can\'t these libraries be broken up, sold CD by CD, instrument by instrument, or packed in LE tasters? is not implicitly unreasonable. I believe it was Donnie who pointed out that many of these more expensive libraries are just as cheap on a CD by CD basis.

The flared reaction to these suggestions have branded us as whinners, idiots, or just trouble makers. But I still believe that our initial suggestions are not unreasonable and I feel sorry that developers have sought to ignore us, make fool of us, or just try to bite our heads off in response.
Clearly we have asked our question and the response has been NO. We have been slapped and abused for even suggesting it and now I am left wondering whether I should save up for the next 6 months for some massive library which I\'m not gonna use commercially.
This has not cultured the climate of trust and good relations which you developers need.

Nick Phoenix

04-25-2001, 12:12 PM

Gigadiga,
Well that sounds totally reasonable. Your earlier posts were not quite so balanced. I will think about it. To give you some kind of idea of what is involved- QLB is in 7 different formats and lets say for arguments sake sells 2-3 copies a day. If it was split up, it would be a full time job dealing with custom cds. In fact, if sales actually increased, (which I wholeheartedly don\'t believe) you would have to hire 2 people and raise the price of the samples. I think this whole idea will come to fruition in a few years, when downloading/modems etc. mature.

nigel

04-25-2001, 05:56 PM

So...it has taken 165 posts to reach almost
some form of sanity!

A sanity that has included... winging,
personality assassination,meanness with money,
boasting,meekness,kindness,arrogance.......!

If you\'re a smoker...you always find the money for fags (please translate into British)!

If you are a musician... you always manage to find the money for your instrument!

If you\'re passionate, you always find a way.

\"Value For Money\", should never be an equation, unless you are a business man.

MOZART died poor. He could have been very
wealthy if he stuck to performing, instead of composing!

Many developers are struggling to keep their heads above water, as are many musicians/composers.

We are not born with life jackets.

GIGGADIGGA informs us of having a \"day job\"
so that he can carry on with his passion of creating music.

DAN DEAN informs us that his libraries are yet to show a profit.

....WE ARE ALL IN THE SAME BOAT!
....even if we don\'t know where it is sailing to.

One mans\'s dog is another man\'s dinner...So I\'m taking my dinner for a walk in the park.

Cool7s_Dad

04-25-2001, 06:21 PM

Originally posted by gigaDiga:
Upon refelection this second trust is what cool7sdad and myself have been trying to bring light to. Neither of us are pirates or casual copyists. We are people who feel a genuine need to pay for what we own. In this respect we have been trying to shine the light on ways which you could help us buy into your products, even if it\'s a trumpet at a time.

Well said giga. I couldn\'t agree more.

I understand if some of you have considered this to be moaning from poor people who can\'t afford decent samples. This is not true...

Right again. Contrary to the way I\'ve been painted here, I\'ve shelled out more than $10k for samples in the last year alone. I make a very good living and can basically afford anything I want. That doesn\'t mean I want everything or that I\'ll simply throw money away (you know... there\'s a reason that rich people are rich after all). It also doesn\'t mean I want to be fleeced. And it doesn\'t mean that I don\'t recognize that there is a helluva lot of talent out there without the financial resources I may personally possess. And even having good financial resources to draw on doesn\'t mean spending money on music is a priority. I\'d rather make sure my kids have a secure future than own the latest, greatest, most expensive brass library.

The question, why can\'t these libraries be broken up, sold CD by CD, instrument by instrument, or packed in LE tasters? is not implicitly unreasonable. I believe it was Donnie who pointed out that many of these more expensive libraries are just as cheap on a CD by CD basis.

It\'s apparent that there are a good number of developers out there who would rather focus on why something cannot be done than focus on how to get it done.

The flared reaction to these suggestions have branded us as whinners, idiots, or just trouble makers.

It is amazing. Aside from pointing out Nick\'s rather large ego (which was never without basis in fact and, ironically, has been fully confirmed by his bellicose reactions), I haven\'t personally insulted anyone here. Yet I\'ve been called loony, an idiot, an egotist, arrogant, a whiner, a complainer, a hypocrite, and been characterized in all manner of offensive ways... all of which are blatant lies. It exposes an elitism and a depth of contempt that some of these developers have for their customers that I never would have imagined.

But I still believe that our initial suggestions are not unreasonable and I feel sorry that developers have sought to ignore us, make fool of us, or just try to bite our heads off in response.

Except for a couple. Worra, in particular, has seemed to take some of this to heart. In the final analysis, the market will decide. If I were a betting man, I\'d put my money on Bigga Giggas.

Clearly we have asked our question and the response has been NO. We have been slapped and abused for even suggesting it and now I am left wondering whether I should save up for the next 6 months for some massive library which I\'m not gonna use commercially. This has not cultured the climate of trust and good relations which you developers need.

And these guys wonder why their stuff is pirated far and wide. Musical talent obviously doesn\'t translate to business or PR savvy. It doesn\'t take a crystal ball to understand that we\'re in a growing market, and that we, as customers, simply don\'t have to put up with the business practices and attitudes of the likes of Nick and Donnie.

This discussion has been wonderful, though. It has shown that the Emperor has no clothes. It has exposed a great many dirty little secrets, and has forced people who would rather not think about these things to do so.

Peace,
Tim
http://www.elithic.com (\"http://www.elithic.com\")

Nick Phoenix

04-25-2001, 08:51 PM

Cool 7,
The only thing that this thread has confirmed is that YOUR ego is without rival on this planet.

Nick Phoenix

04-25-2001, 08:58 PM

C

[This message has been edited by Nick Phoenix (edited 04-26-2001).]

Munsie

04-25-2001, 10:19 PM

I am a software developer and I have over 70 programs on the market. We also sell those same 70 programs on a cd. We sell a decent amount of the cd\'s each month. If we didn\'t sell the individual programs separately we wouldn\'t be in business. We market each individual program to it\'s own demographic. Each of the 70 programs also advertises the main program cd. When it\'s time to order they can buy the individual program or the cd. It\'s their choice. Feel free to replace the word \"program\" with \"sample\".

franz

04-26-2001, 08:45 AM

Munsi
If I replace program with sample I would have to say we are making about 42,000 programs.
Have a nice time choosing!

SteveHanlon

04-26-2001, 09:24 AM

Well, I\'ve said three times on this discussion...if you want a company that sells individual samples...then go to Sampleheads.com
Even Sonic Implants and otehr sf2 comnpanies sell their stuff cheaply.
and then there\'s Bigga Giggas....what\'s to complain about.
The fact that Nick and Donnie and Xsamples and Ilio productions and etc. don\'t sell there stuff cheaply doesn\'t mean you are without a solution. there are stores that sell cheaply and individually...now go for it.

Once you hear the quality difference between sonic implants and dssoundware then you\'ll know why the are a little more expensive.
Hey, i got my QLB for $475 at Sounds On line! Not a bad deal if you keep your eyes open when the deals are happening.
I just got X samples 10, 11 and 12 for under a $100US each from buying at Best service.

the deals are out there and the cheapies are too. Good luck.

And while you\'re at it check out www.dhamma.org (\"http://www.dhamma.org\")

Munsie

04-26-2001, 02:11 PM

Why should price have anything to do with good or bad samples? It all boils down to what we as users are willing to pay. I think the point being made here is when someone likes 1 or only a few samples on a cd but can\'t really justify the price of the entire cd to only use a few samples. Recently I have burned by spending hundreds of dollars on sample cd\'s only to find out only a few samples are actually useable. I think it makes sense to offer samples on an individual basis. Personally I think the producers of higher quality sample cd\'s raise the price to limit the number of end users, to keep novices like myself from sounding as good as the seasoned pros! Let\'s face it, do we really want the local garage band to sound like a symphony?? http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

Jamesmcwilliams

04-26-2001, 03:23 PM

I really don\'t think that the producers are in some kind of conspiracy against novice composers.

I\'ve got some x-sample cd\'s and i think they are great, only £99 per cd, and those samples are excellent.

Do you really think that a local garage band would be able to sound like a symphony whether they have good samples or not?
If they are crap at orchestration, then they could have a real orchestra and they would still sound crap.

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www.mp3.com/jamesmcwilliams (\"http://www.mp3.com/jamesmcwilliams\")

KingIdiot

04-26-2001, 03:28 PM

I think price really has to do with what the \"going\" market is. Lets face it, if you were looking for a job, you\'d atleast ask for what the going rate for the particular job you are doing is. While of course the main thing ould be to get what you \"need\" but if you could get more, you\'re going to ask for more, because it\'ll make likfe easier to do more,..whether its for work or not,..its up to you.

When I first started getting into samples, and buying samples, I bought what I could afford. Which tought me to use what I had. Even back then I find the rice of Samples Cds to be adequate, and now find it to be even more so ince prices are getting cheaper,a nd instrumetns are getting better.

the price of a Sample CD includes paying for someones sample producing knowledge, time for creating it, as well oas other things OTHER than the samples themselves. All of the things that go into creating a Sample CD increase in amount the bigger the library gets. In this case the bigger the library the more it *should* be worth (IF it isn\'t crap in the first place). Its all subjective to what you find worth in anyways....

4 CDs for a Timpani takes alot of editing and programming I\'ll gladly pay $299-399 for that, IF it sounds extraordinary.

The point of the rants have really been on light version of instruments, and I do fully expect to see this starting to happen in the future.With th size of Instrument libraries increasing with Giga, and alot of those focusing on \"power users\" (8-10 poly for one note). I know many people will/are starting toincluding \"light\" versions of instruments in the full version, I could see them selling libraries of just the light version. I suggest devlopers take a look at what huge library producers likeDan Dean and the like are doing. they are setting standards in the programming techniques and creativity that will also allow for different sales techniques that would please both the \"garage band\" user and the \"pro\" user (I hate both those terms).

I\'ld also like to say I don\'t mind the \"work of art\"/Whole library being a ...well Whole. But the standards for \"work of art\" are getting blown open by some of the new libraries showing up and proposed libraries.

Tho, many of the standards I\'m talking about are giga exclusive standards so if you\'re concentrating on All formats you might find youself in a bind.....unless of course you release \"light\" versions in other formats and a full version in Giga...hehee. I\'m begginning to think you\'re limiting the libraries potential of quality for developing for all platforms. Or atleast not taking advatages of what dong an expanded version on giga has to offer in terms of quality.

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Really...I am an Idiot

Cool7s_Dad

04-26-2001, 10:56 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Nick Phoenix:
Cool 7,
The only thing that this thread has confirmed is that YOUR ego is without rival on this planet. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You might want to think about that Nick while mulling over how \"great\" your libraries are :P

This thread has confirmed a number of things. Not the least of which is that you won\'t hesitate to engage in physical threats against people you don\'t like or don\'t agree with. It has obviously confirmed your recalcitrance when it comes to the packaging and marketing of your libraries. It has confirmed that at least a couple of developers are willing to look at alternatives. And, as I alluded to before, it has confirmed your contempt for anyone who isn\'t Nick Phoenix. Finally, it shows that you have a tendency to confuse people who aren\'t intimidated by you with egomaniacs.

Here\'s are some intersting tidbits that may serve as a backdrop for all this:

I posted a poll and instead of answering it, WORRA(a moderator - yeah right) posted an ad for his cd. I don\'t see the point in visiting this site anymore. GOODBYE!

I wonder who said that. Someone who was obviously upset with people posting ads for their CD\'s.

Thousands of people have both of these libraries.

Someone who was, ostensibly, in a position to know this posted the above comment referring to QLG and Zimmer Guitars. Let\'s see... $269 X 1000\'s >= $538,000. Poor, hungry, developers.

TRULY MY LAST POST!

Promises, promises.

I guess I don\'t respond well to angry posts.

No flies on the guy that said this. He could have added that he doesn\'t respond well to any posts that don\'t please him.

Worra,
Why won\'t you answer the question? Is jinjees brass a solo collection or not? If it is solo only, then why is there a section in the library? Did you make this library or is someone else responsible? This mono- stereo talk is smoke and mirrors.

Some really likable guy posted this. A guy that would never complain or take someone to task when he felt they were in the wrong. I just hope Nick Phoenix never meets the guy in person \'cause he\'d probably \"punch him in the face.\" That would be ugly.

Again Nick, you\'re a talented guy. But that doesn\'t negate the myopia you have on this issue. And as despicable as I am, you\'re not particularly likable either. However, unlike you, I\'m not posting these messages where any of my customers will read them. Think about it. As I told almost a year ago, people can be very forgiving if you give them a chance.

Peace,
Tim
http://www.elithic.com (\"http://www.elithic.com\")

JWink

04-27-2001, 01:46 PM

Or more...

Robert Kral

04-27-2001, 03:17 PM

OH: I agree...Guys: stop fighting, it\'s almost funny how you both BAIT each other!

Um, well, at least wait until 200 posts, THEN stop fighting......(maybe).

http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

Cool7s_Dad

04-27-2001, 04:54 PM

Originally posted by Nick Phoenix:
What kind of a wierdo keeps a record of my posts for over a year?

The kind of wierdo who maintains this forum. Everything we post here stays here Nick. All you have to do is click \"search.\"

The 1000s of people comment referred to all the pirated copies.

Fair enough. But in that particular post you were talking about the lack of responses to the poll vs. the number of people who had the library. Did you expect the pirates to post their reviews?

I don\'t respond well to posts that have no basis in reality, like some of yours.

Nick, your record shows that you don\'t respond well to any posts that aren\'t in agreement with you.

As far as alternatives, I never said I wasn\'t willing to look into it.

Oh please.

As we speak 3 lite versions of my libraries are being released for $49 retail each!!!!!!

Then kudos to you Nick.

What makes you think that because you are not a developer, you have the right to be totally nasty.

I haven\'t been totally nasty Nick. I\'m not the one who threatened physical violence.

\"I am the customer, I am always right!\"

Sounds good to me. It\'s certainly the way my customers feel. And I agree with them.

Maybe I should post a little summary of your friendly little posts??

By all means.

Peace,
Tim
http://www.elithic.com (\"http://www.elithic.com\")

nigel

04-27-2001, 06:48 PM

Dear Mr Cools7_Dad,

After reading your many and varried inputs into this long forum discussion,I can not help wondering if your real problem is not really the matter in hand.

Do you have a small **** ?

May life be kinder to you in the future,
all my love,
Nigel

P.S.
No...I won\'t respect you in the morning!
...I might not have noticed!

nigel

04-27-2001, 07:31 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Cool7s_Dad:
Originally posted by Nick Phoenix:
[b]What kind of a wierdo keeps a record of my posts for over a year?

The kind of wierdo who maintains this forum. Everything we post here stays here Nick. All you have to do is click \"search.\"

Dear Mr. Cool7s_Dad,

Thank you for your job application.

We would like to inform you that you have been successful.

Please report for duty on the 1st may 2001.

It is essential you bring your own chicken (unplucked).

We at \"WINGE & WAFFLE PUBLICATIONS LTD.\" would like to wish you every success in your new profession as a journalist, but feel it prudent to point out that facts should not interfere with the truth.

Yours......

P.S. Remember.\"the world is your lobster...\"!

nigel

04-27-2001, 07:42 PM

Dear Mr. Cools7_Dad

Your lengthy replies are quite informative.
Do you not have any work on at the moment?

Kindest regards...

nigel

04-27-2001, 07:57 PM

Dear unCool007_SurrogateMum

IF YOU WORK IN A BROTHEL...
DON\'T COMPLAIN IF YOU GET F**CKED!!!!

Kindest regards,

Nick Phoenix

04-27-2001, 11:04 PM

What kind of a wierdo keeps a record of my posts for over a year? The 1000s of people comment referred to all the pirated copies.I don\'t respond well to posts that have no basis in reality, like some of yours. As far as alternatives, I never said I wasn\'t willing to look into it. As we speak 3 lite versions of my libraries are being released for $49 retail each!!!!!! What makes you think that because you are not a developer, you have the right to be totally nasty. \"I am the customer, I am always right!\" Maybe I should post a little summary of your friendly little posts??

04-27-2001, 11:15 PM

Oh pleaaaase. Stop fighting. Probably you could exchange your emails, make an appointment & drink one or two beer & become friends.

kind regards & peace to you all

------------------
O.H.

mschiff

04-28-2001, 03:59 AM

Nick,

If you are looking for a great drumkit library, check out Purrfect Drums from Studiocat (www.studiocat.com). I know of people who have gone out and bought a computer and giga, just so they could use this library. I have no connection with Studiocat, other than being a satisfied customer.

-- Martin

Jamesmcwilliams

04-28-2001, 06:55 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by nigel:
Dear Mr. Cools7_Dad

Your lengthy replies are quite informative.
Do you not have any work on at the moment?

Kindest regards...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The question is....do you have any work at the moment, what are you? a child?

Nick Phoenix

04-28-2001, 03:18 PM

I am going to order the studiokat drumkit cd and I\'ll give you guys my thoughts next week.

Cool 7, You\'re probably right.

nigel

04-28-2001, 06:45 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Jamesmcwilliams:

The question is....do you have any work at the moment, what are you? a child?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

How dare you call me a child, you bully.

I\'m going to tell my mum about you!

Nick Phoenix

04-28-2001, 06:51 PM

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Temple of Customer who is always right.

Jamesmcwilliams

04-28-2001, 08:56 PM

Impressive, is that penis to scale?

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www.mp3.com/jamesmcwilliams (\"http://www.mp3.com/jamesmcwilliams\")

04-29-2001, 12:27 AM

I honestly hope that the forum leaders kill all those \"We want 200\"-messages. Sorry, but this is too silly. Get back to making music or producing libraries!!! PLEAAAAASE!

------------------
O.H.

nigel

04-29-2001, 03:12 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Nick Phoenix:
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Temple of Customer who is always right.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Could you be more specific?!

P.S. I can\'t help wondering what alternatives
\"Spell Check\" offered!

Robert Kral

04-29-2001, 03:27 PM

Nearly 200 posts, and look how far the quality of the conversation has come!

Nick Phoenix

04-30-2001, 10:52 AM

Mschiff,
Is the studiocat library eally 12 gigs? How many kits?

mschiff

04-30-2001, 11:41 PM

Yes, Purrrfect Drums is really 12 gigs. There are over 5 drum kits.

I don\'t own the library yet (I have bought a lot of other things from Jim), but some very knowledgeable, highly professional studio people that I know and respect swear by it. You can call Jim and discuss it with him. He is really a great guy to talk to and deal with.

-- Martin

JWink

05-01-2001, 06:13 PM

There are actually only about 2.4 GB of drum samples.

There are separate gigs for each cymbal (total 1.5 GB), but ALSO a single Gig with all the same samples cymbals, and a \"Lite Cymbals\" that is still almost a GB.

The remaining ~5.5 GB are different subsets of the same samples (with the cymbals repeated AGAIN with every set), organized into genre-appropriate kits: GM, Country, Fusion, Heavy Metal, Jazz, Rock, Vintage, and \"Small Swift.\"

That said... these are indeed fantastic sounds! I just wish they were better organized... I don\'t need to dedicate 9+ GB to duplicate material!

[This message has been edited by JWink (edited 05-01-2001).]

nigel

05-01-2001, 07:02 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Nick Phoenix:
Mschiff,
Is the studiocat library eally 12 gigs? How many kits?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It\'s massive!...in every respect...so I decided to put it on a separate hard drive.

...This is the beauty
of \"gigga\" and the new libraries (remember how much it used to cost for a few more megs on simms?).

Also,switching on the lexicons help!

...And if you can remember your original question about radio friendly samples..?
Sounding good on radio is maybe not really the criteria...but sounding good,is.

Hope you find your missing \"r\"...eally I do.

Cool7,I hope Timmys\' **** grows.

Thanks for all the fish.

Nick Phoenix

05-01-2001, 07:42 PM

Thanks for the info. I should have the library on Fri.
Who will be #200???????

Jamesmcwilliams

05-01-2001, 08:10 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Nick Phoenix:
Thanks for the info. I should have the library on Fri.
Who will be #200???????<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Me http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/grin.gif

------------------
www.mp3.com/jamesmcwilliams (\"http://www.mp3.com/jamesmcwilliams\")

KingIdiot

05-01-2001, 11:24 PM

what I want to know is when is this thread going to make it to 1000?

Its at least nice to see this foruma bit active http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

------------------
Really...I am an Idiot

SteveHanlon

05-02-2001, 02:42 AM

See, Nick, what a little persistance can do. You started out 200 replies ago asking for a...whatever it was you were looking for. and now 200 replies later you\'re actually going to buy a....whatever it is you\'re gona buy.

We\'ve all got too much time on our hands.

leadbelly

05-03-2001, 10:08 PM

Look out for \"Drumscapes\" featuring the session greats Jamal Ahmed, Smythe Stevenson and Massey Toney.

High quality samples recorded at 24bit/96khz and dithered carefully down using pristine algorithms.

Neumann and Groove Tube mics, avalon preamps and monster cable.

Each drum kit is recorded in small room, large room and dry ambiences. Each drum is recorded at five velocities, cymbals at three velocities.

Nick Phoenix

05-04-2001, 03:28 PM

I got Purrrfect Drums today. First of all, the actual samples only take up a few gigs, not 12. You really don\'t HAVE to load the kits (arrangements of the same samples organized in kits) unless you are using a drum controller or you have to work that way. The library actually has very little variety in types of drum sounds. If you are looking for tremendous variety, buy this and a few other libraries. The cymbals, hats, rides, kicks and toms are amazing. The kicks are beefy and dynamic, compressed for a more in your face sort of a sound, some of the softer velocities would probably work for less aggressive music. The toms are nice with very crisp attacks, good for some things. Cymbals and hats are pretty perfect. Rides could have a little more variety in tone. But, alas, the snares are not very good. Improper micing technique and not enough dynamics, possibly too much compression. I URGE the Studiokat people to redo the snare samples!!! Still, I recommend this library.

Jim Roseberry

05-04-2001, 05:33 PM

But, alas, the snares are not very good. Improper micing technique and not enough dynamics, possibly too much compression. I URGE the Studiokat people to redo the snare samples!!! Still, I recommend this library.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Hi Nick,

I can understand you not liking the snares. They might not be your cup of tea. But I strongly disagree with your statement that they were improperly miked/mixed and lack dynamics. I have many quotes from users that would totally contradict this. (If anyone is interested, they can go to the studio cat website and read em\'.)
In fact, I urge anyone interested in PD to contact Cakewalk and Nemesys themselves... and get their opinions.

About the ride cymbal lacking tonal variation, that\'s somewhat surprising to hear considering that the ride cymbal was sampled at 2\", 3\", 4\", and bell (16 layers deep at each position. The goal was to provide lots of subtle variation. Too much variation and the ride cymbal takes on a \'random-sample\' quality that\'s VERY un-natural.

As to the samples not being 12Gigs:
Obviously the \'Quick-start\' kits are derived from the samples in the \'Full\' kits.

The whole idea behind the quickstart kits is just that...
To provide kits that load as a single Gig file, operate from a single MIDI channel, have room ambience, and are basically ready to roll. (Especially useful when you want to just sit and play.)

NOTE: The cymbals HAVE to be included with each quickstart kit... unless you use performance files - but that would defeat the whole premise. (Thus, each of the seven quickstart kits is right about 900MB.)
I should also mention that the cymbals are tweaked differntly for each quickstart kit.

Also note that I\'ve provided each cymbal as an isolated Gig file.
Why?
Pretty simple...
Say you like the paiste crash cymbal (which favors the left side of the stereo field)... and you\'d like a similar (but slightly different) crash on the other side of the kit.
Well... load in the paiste crash Gig, flip the panning, adjust the tuning up/down, and voila! You have a similar crash on the other side of the kit. (Without having to open the patch editor and roll your own)

So... yes... the total size is right about 12Gigs of data. There is reason/purpose for each and every bit of data on the CD! That doesn\'t mean that you\'ll find use for each and every kit/sample, but a different user may NEED those quickstart kits/samples... or want the convenience of not having to \'extract\' a cymbal from the cymbals_all Gig just to add a slight variation.

On a more personal level...
You asked someone not to present their opinions about your brass library as fact.
Making blanket statements about the snares not being miked/mixed properly is doing the exact same thing. Lots of folks would disagree with your opinion.

------------------
Jim Roseberry