Velocity or volume automation? Or both?

[AndreasvanHaren]

Now I finally have a keyboard that has a modwheel, I started to use it for recording the dynamics from my orchestral score. But should I do the volume automation still on top of this? Or do I give all my orchestral tracks the same starting volume and only use the modwheel for putting the dynamics in as velocity? How do others do this?

[Jeff Turner]

I don't touch my volume while I'm entering each track, I edit CC#1 & velocity. when this is all done and I'm starting to mix, I then play the role of an engineer and leave those controls alone and write in volume automation.

[Iacobus Rodelus]

I found a bit of a catch-22 myself when exporting MIDI from Finale into ACID Pro: When I go to import the MIDI, a volume envelope is automatically created for each track based upon the dynamics in the score from Finale. (Most of the time it gets it right; sometimes not.) I'd rather use a modulation envelope, so thankfully I can draw over it and mix using volume later like Jeff mentioned.

[AndreasvanHaren]

I don't touch my volume while I'm entering each track, I edit CC#1 & velocity. when this is all done and I'm starting to mix, I then play the role of an engineer and leave those controls alone and write in volume automation.

According to the manual, the modwheel controls both velocity and volume at the same time, is it necessary than to still write volume automation?

" With Personal Orchestra, the Mod Wheel simultaneously controls both Volume (ppp to fff) and Timbre (brightness or tone)"

[Leo Guardo]

Velocity is part of the performance, while volume is part of mixing. In many instances writing volume automations while you are composing becomes detrimental. cause once you start automating you have to keep going til the end. Better do them later;)

Velocity information are stored when you play, in fact how hard you press the keyboard keys correspond to a value.

On software like pro tools, logic, cubase and others you can manually edit velocity value of each note. Volume automations are usually done when the composition is finished to balance the tracks, fade them in, etc..

Hope this will help you guys

[briff]

Velocity is part of the performance, while volume is part of mixing. In many instances writing volume automations while you are composing becomes detrimental. cause once you start automating you have to keep going til the end. Better do them later;)

Velocity information are stored when you play, in fact how hard you press the keyboard keys correspond to a value.

On software like pro tools, logic, cubase and others you can manually edit velocity value of each note. Volume automations are usually done when the composition is finished to balance the tracks, fade them in, etc..

Hope this will help you guys

Well...
For a wind instrument the velocity is mapped to the attack, and then the "volume of air blown into the instrument" usually is mapped to Breath Control or Modulation or Expression. And sometimes Volume, but generally I agree that the Volume control should be left to mixing.

[AndreasvanHaren]

I finished recording my orchestral piece in Logic and recorded CC#1 & velocity. Now for the next step, I want to work on entering the score written dynamics. What is the best way to do this? Writing it by hand in the hyperdraw section of each track as automation? Or by using the volume track slider with the Touch enabled in the track? Or maybe with the help of one of the controls on my midi keyboard?

Not sure though which control to use for that, my modwheel is writing modulation data, not volume data. I could assign another controller like a slider.

IN the Manual I found this about volume:"
7: Volume, Turned off by default.
Volume controller CC# 7 used for static volume changes (in contrast to modulation control CC #1 which is used for dynamic volume/timbre changes). You must activate it in the ARIA player options panel."

Not sure what this means, I don't see a volume controller in the Aria player that could be turned on or off. Or maybe they mean the sliders in the mixing panel? But they are not really turned off by default.

I am trying to find a good workflow when working on my music, sorry for asking all these questions. :D

[briff]

I finished recording my orchestral piece in Logic and recorded CC#1 & velocity. Now for the next step, I want to work on entering the score written dynamics. What is the best way to do this? Writing it by hand in the hyperdraw section of each track as automation? Or by using the volume track slider with the Touch enabled in the track? Or maybe with the help of one of the controls on my midi keyboard?

Not sure though which control to use for that, my modwheel is writing modulation data, not volume data. I could assign another controller like a slider.

IN the Manual I found this about volume:"
7: Volume, Turned off by default.
Volume controller CC# 7 used for static volume changes (in contrast to modulation control CC #1 which is used for dynamic volume/timbre changes). You must activate it in the ARIA player options panel."

Not sure what this means, I don't see a volume controller in the Aria player that could be turned on or off. Or maybe they mean the sliders in the mixing panel? But they are not really turned off by default.

I am trying to find a good workflow when working on my music, sorry for asking all these questions. :D

As an example: If you blow a flute hard it will have a different timbre than when you blow it with little air.
The volume doesn't affect the timbre! So a flute blown hard (e.g. CC1=127) with volume low (CC7=30) will sound as a flute blown hard far from the listener. So Volume (cc7) really means the sliders on the mixing panel.

[AndreasvanHaren]

As an example: If you blow a flute hard it will have a different timbre than when you blow it with little air.
The volume doesn't affect the timbre! So a flute blown hard (e.g. CC1=127) with volume low (CC7=30) will sound as a flute blown hard far from the listener. So Volume (cc7) really means the sliders on the mixing panel.

Thanks, so what you are saying is that I shouldn't write any volume automation in the separate tracks, and leave the volume slider where they are?

[briff]

Thanks, so what you are saying is that I shouldn't write any volume automation in the separate tracks, and leave the volume slider where they are?

Well, if you want to mimic the musicians' moving around the hall, you should write volume and panning automation :)

[AndreasvanHaren]

Well, if you want to mimic the musicians' moving around the hall, you should write volume and panning automation :)

Makes sense. The only volume editing afterwards then would be balancing out the instrument in the mixer panel in Logic.

When you use the modwheel to create your dynamics, do you have a value for every kind of dynamics in the score, like for example, Mf is 85 on the display of your midi keyboard, F is 95 etc. Or do you do it pure on your ears?

[briff]

Makes sense. The only volume editing afterwards then would be balancing out the instrument in the mixer panel in Logic.

When you use the modwheel to create your dynamics, do you have a value for every kind of dynamics in the score, like for example, Mf is 85 on the display of your midi keyboard, F is 95 etc. Or do you do it pure on your ears?

Read the excellent tutorial on this very topic by Steve Johnson: http://levo.com/vch/cc_kv_tutorial.htm

[AndreasvanHaren]

Read the excellent tutorial on this very topic by Steve Johnson: http://levo.com/vch/cc_kv_tutorial.htm

Yes, I know it. He does use different values got velocity and volume for every dynamic, what means that the players are "moving for- and backwards" in the room.

[briff]

Yes, I know it. He does use different values got velocity and volume for every dynamic, what means that the players are "moving for- and backwards" in the room.

Well, if you don't change the reverb during volume change, they are not "moving". Though I don't completely agree with Steve in that sense.
What Steve noticed is that if you use only CC1, you have only 127 dynamic levels per instrument from silence to ffffff.
But what if you want to create a noticable crescendo from ff to fff? If you want a "forte" timbre, you will probably want to set CC1 to 110. But from 110 to 127 you don't have much granularity. In that case it might worth lowering the overall volume, and force the volume up to give some additional power. Though I think in that cases in reality you would want to add one more instrument to have greater dynamics.
All in all, with second regard to your question I would probably try to avoid using volume automation to increase dynamics.

[AndreasvanHaren]

Well, if you don't change the reverb during volume change, they are not "moving". Though I don't completely agree with Steve in that sense.
What Steve noticed is that if you use only CC1, you have only 127 dynamic levels per instrument from silence to ffffff.
But what if you want to create a noticable crescendo from ff to fff? If you want a "forte" timbre, you will probably want to set CC1 to 110. But from 110 to 127 you don't have much granularity. In that case it might worth lowering the overall volume, and force the volume up to give some additional power. Though I think in that cases in reality you would want to add one more instrument to have greater dynamics.
All in all, with second regard to your question I would probably try to avoid using volume automation to increase dynamics.

Just wondering, but are the original settings of the volume sliders in Aria set like that for a reason? Are they already trying to be seated on a specific spot on stage in the orchestra?

For example the strings are when loaded set to -4 Db, while the woodwinds are set to - 11 Db, timpani is set to -2 db. All these volume settings does put them about on the correct place in an orchestra.

[Steve Johnson]

Hello, André and Briff!

I've been following this discussion with some interest, and I just wanted to chime in. Hopefully I can offer a bit of clarification here.

As you already know, CC1 controls both volume and timbre for the sustain instruments. I treat CC1 as the primary volume controller, and I use CC7 as a secondary volume controller to expand dynamic ranges beyond what is achievable with CC1 only. For my purposes, CC7 is there for its additive effect on volume outputs. As such it really doesn't produce a sense of players moving "forwards" or "backwards" in the room, but simply tries to create at least somewhat realistic dynamic levels and instrument balances. I've been using my CC1/CC7 combinations quite a bit lately, and I can say that adjusting my CC7 values has come in particularly handy for addressing balance issues.

Now, the problem seems to be that Logic does not use CC7 for MIDI channel volume control, but instead handles channel volume through the mixer panel. Unfortunately, this is very different from what I'm able to do in Sonar, where I can input both CC1 and CC7 data for each MIDI track. The volume sliders in ARIA are programmed to respond to CC7. If you do not have any CC7 data in your Logic MIDI tracks, the MIDI channel volumes will stay at whatever the original settings are in ARIA unless you move the sliders yourself.

André, I would hesitate to draw any conclusions about the default volume slider settings you get when you load instruments into ARIA. Although I could be wrong, I doubt that those default volume settings are intended to emulate relative front-back instrument positions. Instead, what I'd recommend is to set the volume sliders in ARIA to the same level for each instrument, use CC1 in logic to create the different dynamics for your music, then use channel volume changes in Logic's mixer panel to make adjustments to dynamic levels and instrument balances in the audio mixing process as needed.

Finally, I should mention that it is impossible to set volume controller values which can stay the same all the time. This is because different instrument combinations may cover up sounds that you'll need to bring out more by increasing their volume. I have an advantage with Sonar because I can do it "on the fly" by adjusting my CC7 values, whereas with Logic you may need to do the best you can with CC1 only, then do the rest through audio mixing.

By the way, it's good to see you back on the forum, André! :)

Steve

[AndreasvanHaren]

Hello, André and Briff!

I've been following this discussion with some interest, and I just wanted to chime in. Hopefully I can offer a bit of clarification here.

As you already know, CC1 controls both volume and timbre for the sustain instruments. I treat CC1 as the primary volume controller, and I use CC7 as a secondary volume controller to expand dynamic ranges beyond what is achievable with CC1 only. For my purposes, CC7 is there for its additive effect on volume outputs. As such it really doesn't produce a sense of players moving "forwards" or "backwards" in the room, but simply tries to create at least somewhat realistic dynamic levels and instrument balances. I've been using my CC1/CC7 combinations quite a bit lately, and I can say that adjusting my CC7 values has come in particularly handy for addressing balance issues.

Now, the problem seems to be that Logic does not use CC7 for MIDI channel volume control, but instead handles channel volume through the mixer panel. Unfortunately, this is very different from what I'm able to do in Sonar, where I can input both CC1 and CC7 data for each MIDI track. The volume sliders in ARIA are programmed to respond to CC7. If you do not have any CC7 data in your Logic MIDI tracks, the MIDI channel volumes will stay at whatever the original settings are in ARIA unless you move the sliders yourself.

André, I would hesitate to draw any conclusions about the default volume slider settings you get when you load instruments into ARIA. Although I could be wrong, I doubt that those default volume settings are intended to emulate relative front-back instrument positions. Instead, what I'd recommend is to set the volume sliders in ARIA to the same level for each instrument, use CC1 in logic to create the different dynamics for your music, then use channel volume changes in Logic's mixer panel to make adjustments to dynamic levels and instrument balances in the audio mixing process as needed.

Finally, I should mention that it is impossible to set volume controller values which can stay the same all the time. This is because different instrument combinations may cover up sounds that you'll need to bring out more by increasing their volume. I have an advantage with Sonar because I can do it "on the fly" by adjusting my CC7 values, whereas with Logic you may need to do the best you can with CC1 only, then do the rest through audio mixing.

By the way, it's good to see you back on the forum, André! :)

Steve

Hi Steve, I am back after being very disappointed by the Kontakt 4 Orchestral instruments. I bought a new Mac (27 inch, 16 GB ram, 4 processors), an M-Audio Keyboard (oxygen61) and the Komplete 7 software package that includes Kontakt 4. I thought I was ready to go, but the Kontakt 4 orchestra turned to be out very weak so I am back on GPO again that really sounds so much better and especially stronger. Now with the new Mac, I can make any kind of ensemble I want and I build a template that includes the complete GPO library. The string sections are build out of separate solo string players. Everything works great.

So now I am back on the whole dynamic issue! I am able to use cc1 now with the help of my modwheel and the results are so much better then when I only used cc7 as automation data. However I am still confused about the yes or no when it comes to use volume automation. In Logic, cc7 is working in the mixer channel, not in Aria. It would be great if I could get that work. Just to hear the difference.

At the moment I am recording my Rondo for orchestra (last movement of my 2nd symphony) using cc1 with my modwheel only. After that I have to see what to do next; do I use cc7 automation, yes or no?

Maybe I will only balance out all the tracks without writing any cc7.

André

[Jeff Turner]

...I thought I was ready to go, but the Kontakt 4 orchestra turned to be out very weak...

If you're looking for other orchestral sounds to augment GPO with, look into the VSL Special Edition library. Although it uses CC#11 as its volume controller, not CC#1 like GPO.

[Steve Johnson]

In Logic, cc7 is working in the mixer channel, not in Aria. It would be great if I could get that work. Just to hear the difference.


Ah, interesting! Now I understand that the difference between Sonar and Logic with CC7 is that the automation behaviors simply show up in different places. This being the case, the end result will be the same, and I see no reason why you shouldn't incorporate Logic's volume automation with CC7 into your work. The only thing to bear in mind here is that the volume sliders in ARIA set base channel volumes, so you'll want to use them to establish initial balances among all the instruments. Once you have the ARIA sliders set to where you want, you can leave them alone and use Logic's CC7 volume automation to adjust dynamic levels and instrument balances as required.

Steve

[AndreasvanHaren]

Ah, interesting! Now I understand that the difference between Sonar and Logic with CC7 is that the automation behaviors simply show up in different places. This being the case, the end result will be the same, and I see no reason why you shouldn't incorporate Logic's volume automation with CC7 into your work. The only thing to bear in mind here is that the volume sliders in ARIA set base channel volumes, so you'll want to use them to establish initial balances among all the instruments. Once you have the ARIA sliders set to where you want, you can leave them alone and use Logic's CC7 volume automation to adjust dynamic levels and instrument balances as required.

Steve

I checked just now if moving the aria volume slider while playing back a recording I made would change the timbre as well, but that is not the case. So it's really only the modwheel cc1 that makes these changes.

I assigned cc1, cc2, cc7 and cc11 to my modwheel just to see if any of them would move the aria volume sliders, but no. Not possible to reach them from my midi keyboard. So I will have to use Logic automation cc7 instead to balance out the volume later on.

I thought about the possibility to assign both cc1 and cc7 to one control on my keyboard, for example the modwheel, so I could make these changes at the same time. Don't know if this is possible actually, but it would be nice if I could use your values by moving 1 control only. They would have to be in a different amount for every instrument, maybe it's possible to write a script in Logic that can do this? No idea...

Just checked quickly some posts on this: I think it's possible in the environment of Logic with something called transformer objects. I have to look into this another time.

[AndreasvanHaren]

If you're looking for other orchestral sounds to augment GPO with, look into the VSL Special Edition library. Although it uses CC#11 as its volume controller, not CC#1 like GPO.

What I learned about VSL from the sounds that are included in the Kontakt 4 library, is that I will never buy anything from them. In my honest opinion, the sounds lack character. They are pure and very nice, but they don't move me. Not sure what they did with them to make them sound like this.