Aria as plugin, want to turn of panning

[Bernt]

More questions about Aria as a vst plugin of Cubase essential. I presently work with a composition for cello and flute, and have loaded two different instances of Aria, one for the cello and one for the flute, as two instrument tracks (which might not be the best solution, but I don't want to change it in the middle of the work).

Now at the mixing stage, and here are some new problems. I am trying to turn of the effect internal to Aria, and use the controls of Cubase. I know how to turn of reverb and stereo stage (whatever that is). But what about panning? I thought it would work to have the Aria setting panned in the middle, and then create an stereo image with Cubase, but here was the chock of the day: the Aria slider keeps returning to the extreme left for the flute, whatever I do (moves back by itself as the song plays along). Completely destroys the mix. Any suggestions??

[buckshead]

This works - read the earlier post - use midi tracks with the ARIA inserted. Then on the midi section open up the automation panels (the + on the left of the track name). Set Read and Write on. Show ARIA panel, move the line of the automation up and down and and the volume slider goes with it.

There's a screen shot at http://www.box.net/shared/a9r1k95us9osimy1tnhp

This is Cubase 6, the sliders etc are controlled by the midi automation setup

Hope this helps

[rbowser-]

I believe Derek has described how it is specifically in Cubase - hope you get that going, Bernt.

The issue you're talking about is similar to Sonar users. What it gets down to is that the MIDI controls in the recording software controls things in Aria. Like right now I'm working on a Sonar project using Aria. The volume faders and pan controls in Aria are all controlled by those in the associated MIDI channel strip in Sonar. If I tried to set the volumes and pans in Aria, they would just snap to different settings once I hit play - they'd snap to however the controls are set in Sonar. And that's really as it should be - with your DAW software in control.

Randy

[Bernt]

This works - read the earlier post - use midi tracks with the ARIA inserted. Then on the midi section open up the automation panels (the + on the left of the track name). Set Read and Write on. Show ARIA panel, move the line of the automation up and down and and the volume slider goes with it.

There's a screen shot at http://www.box.net/shared/a9r1k95us9osimy1tnhp

This is Cubase 6, the sliders etc are controlled by the midi automation setup

Hope this helps

OK, thank you, slowly learning. I have now mananged to set things almost as you have in the screenshot, and also succeded in copying my already existing two instrument tracks to the two new midi tracks. I am stryggling with the manual in order to solve the rest, but it is not very clearly written. These are my most urgent problems

(1) I know have only a "volume" sector under the Midi's, how do I add a pan (this must be easy, but I seem to be getting tired, or maybe old, or something...)
(2) This automation line that is being drawn, is there any way of resetting it, once it has been done?
(3) As might be suspected, I have some difficulties in understanding all the differences between instrument tracks and midi tracks. After some experimenting, it seems to me that something has changed with the reverb. When using instruments tracks (and two instances of Aria) I was able to "separate the reverbs" for my two instruments (that is, I could set the level of dryness\wetness differently), but now I can't find any way of doing this...

I had struggled some years with these things now, but I never seem to get past even the most basic (or so it seems, to me). But, sincerely, I think much could be done at the level of manuals. Take this use of "instruments", for example. Why on earth do they want to call Aria, an VST instrument? Clearly, cellos and flutes are instruments we load into samplers, which we may use in sequencers.

[rbowser-]

OK, thank you, slowly learning. I have now mananged to set things almost as you have in the screenshot, and also succeded in copying my already existing two instrument tracks to the two new midi tracks. I am stryggling with the manual in order to solve the rest, but it is not very clearly written. These are my most urgent problems

(1) I know have only a "volume" sector under the Midi's, how do I add a pan (this must be easy, but I seem to be getting tired, or maybe old, or something...)
(2) This automation line that is being drawn, is there any way of resetting it, once it has been done?
(3) As might be suspected, I have some difficulties in understanding all the differences between instrument tracks and midi tracks. After some experimenting, it seems to me that something has changed with the reverb. When using instruments tracks (and two instances of Aria) I was able to "separate the reverbs" for my two instruments (that is, I could set the level of dryness\wetness differently), but now I can't find any way of doing this...

I had struggled some years with these things now, but I never seem to get past even the most basic (or so it seems, to me). But, sincerely, I think much could be done at the level of manuals. Take this use of "instruments", for example. Why on earth do they want to call Aria, an VST instrument? Clearly, cellos and flutes are instruments we load into samplers, which we may use in sequencers.

Some hopefully uncomplicated answers:

1 - There's a pan slider that moves sideways in the same area as the volume slider.

2 - Those automation lines have appeared because you were moving knobs while the project played back. Make fader changes you want when the project isn't being played. If you have automation in the tracks you don't want to use, select that automation "envelope" and delete it.

3 - Aria is called a VST because that's what it is. All "soft synths" that can be used as plug-ins with recording software are created under the "Virtual Studio Technology" spec developed by Steinberg.

Randy

[Bernt]

Some hopefully uncomplicated answers:

1 - There's a pan slider that moves sideways in the same area as the volume slider.

2 - Those automation lines have appeared because you were moving knobs while the project played back. Make fader changes you want when the project isn't being played. If you have automation in the tracks you don't want to use, select that automation "envelope" and delete it.

3 - Aria is called a VST because that's what it is. All "soft synths" that can be used as plug-ins with recording software are created under the "Virtual Studio Technology" spec developed by Steinberg.

Randy

Thank you, Randy.


I found the pan slider, what I can't figure out is how you add the "pan track" on the screen, I only see a "volume track" (under the two Midi-tracks I now have).

About the termonology. I am sure there are good reasons to use the terminology the way its is used, and I am sorry if I seem annoyed. The problems I am referring to are sentencen like the following in the manual of Cubase Essential: ""In the Preference dialog ... you can specify what should happen when loading a VST instrument in an instrument slot". Now, does this refer to slots in Cubase, or slots in Aria? I understand it is the former, but it does not feel very intuitive.

[buckshead]

Just a quick reply this morning - Each additional automation track shows below the last one. There should be another + to the left of the volume track which gives another drop down.

If you want separate reverbs, then you must use separate instances of aria although the sends are separate in each channel. Or don't use aria reverb but two separate reverbs as plug ins

[Bernt]

Just a quick reply this morning - Each additional automation track shows below the last one. There should be another + to the left of the volume track which gives another drop down.

If you want separate reverbs, then you must use separate instances of aria although the sends are separate in each channel. Or don't use aria reverb but two separate reverbs as plug ins

Hi,

and thank you for your patience with me. Concerning the reverb their may be an ambiquity here. I am quite happy with using the same reverb, and same basic settings of it (options like "Concert hall" or "Piano hall")), but what I want to do is to adjust the degree of wetness of the signal separately for each sound (or instrument, as I would like to say, in this case the cello and the flute), since this should be one of the things that gives depth to the mix. That is, what is easily done in the standalone Aria, for instance. I thought this would be easy with Cubase, too.

[Bernt]

I have done some experimenting now, and it doesn't look promising. No way that I can get my present tracks to obey the Cubase controls, when it comes to panning. What happens is that, with Aria open, I can see how the Aria pan knob(s) jumps back and forth during playback, tossing the sound around with it. Automation does nothing to prevent this.

Could it be that I, for some reason, cannot continue to use the track I started from? Or is there something wrong with the way I tried to work. What I did was to compose directly into the key editor, with a lot of cutting and moving parts around.

I would be quite alright with setting the panning only within Aria, but as I said I cannot keep the knob steady, it simply doesn't stay in one position.

[buckshead]

Can you check that you have got no data in the pan controls in midi, that is CC 10.
Open key editor and check the details in the controller lanes at the bottom, you might need to open pan to get to this. You must have recorded something. OR open List Editor and check for CC10 in that. This is another set of automation that are available in Cubase. I didn't realise until I just checked that this also altered the pan in ARIA.

I think that you might be able to "pick up" the notes only and put them down in another track without the controls, but this would lose all the CC commands.

You're using a different version of Cibase to me and I'm not sure how much you can do, but try the above and see.

[Bernt]

Can you check that you have got no data in the pan controls in midi, that is CC 10.
Open key editor and check the details in the controller lanes at the bottom, you might need to open pan to get to this. You must have recorded something. OR open List Editor and check for CC10 in that. This is another set of automation that are available in Cubase. I didn't realise until I just checked that this also altered the pan in ARIA.

I think that you might be able to "pick up" the notes only and put them down in another track without the controls, but this would lose all the CC commands.

You're using a different version of Cibase to me and I'm not sure how much you can do, but try the above and see.

Thank you, I did some more testing. About recording, yes, I am working with the same track that was almost ready when I noticed it couldn't be properly mixed with Aria in CE 5. Now, I have checked the list editor of both cello and flute and removed every CC10 entry (there were plenty). At first this seemed to do the job, the flipping of the pan wheel in Aria seemed to stop. But when I had done some further mixing (but no recording) it suddenly was there again, there simply is a part of the flute section where the pan in Aria jumps to extreme left, nothing visible for this particular part in the List editor. I did some further testing with alternating between intsruments tracks and Midi tracks, but the problem remains.

Now, I have found one way of getting a non-jumpy panning of my tracks. I simply pan both cello and flute to the extreme left in Aria, reduce the volume coming from Aria and do the rest of the panning with Cubase controls. This gives a decent result, but seems rather clumsy.

There is, of course, one thing I still could try. Now I removed every CC10 entry from the List editor; should I try to create a single CC10 command at the beginning of the list (track), and hope that this will somehow control the whole thing? How do I do this? Is it enough if I do my mix in Cubase and then a record from the transport panel (normal or merge?).

I also hope that I have explained the problem well enough. I am not english and my miditerminology is still developing. My problem is not that Aria controls the panning, but that there are two pan-masters, so to say, Cubase and Aria, which seem to work independently of each other. That is, I don't think Aria cancels the setting I make in the mixer, it just adds something of its own to it (as with the volume). This would not be a big problem, if it wasn't for the fact that the Aria pan doesn't keep steady (it is like having the flutist jump to the other side of the room in the middle of the track)

[buckshead]

1. If you had values in CC10, you must have put them there. Are you using a mod wheel to enter values ? Can these values be coming from somewhere ?

2. You removed all the CC10 values in the list editor, but later the pan control started to move again. Have you entered more details in CC10 somehow ?

3. Open key editor and then open the control change track at the bottom and set it to CC10 pan. Does the value of CC10 on this graph move or is it a straight line?. If it is not a straight line then draw it as a straight line, this will over ride all the previous midi settings at CC10.

4. Also check the VST pan automationn as discussed before.

5. Also try MIDI>FUNCTIONS>DELETE CONTROLLERS. This removes everything except the notes and the ON velocity. That is if Cubase essential has this function.

6. Has Cubase essential got MIDI>CC automation setup>. Is this set correctly for CC10 ?

7. If you can't get it to work, it should do, as a last resort you could email the cpr file to me and I will try to see what is going wrong. If you don't want to compromise your work, send only half the file. I have been using Cubase for 15 years now.

[rbowser-]

My point of reference is Sonar, Bernt, so I can't help you specifically with Cubase tools.

But I do know that something which all recording programs have in common, is that when using a plug-in like Aria, the software's controls take over those in Aria. You can't set pans and volumes in Aria and expect them to stay put, because those controls need to be set in your recording program.

In Sonar we can right click and choose to dis-engage the controls so they Don't control Aria, but it's not usually the best way to work.

You had so much CC10 data to erase because you were moving the control while your project was playing, causing a lot of automation data to be recorded in your track. Stop playback, make a change in the setting, listen if it's what you want. Otherwise you'll be constantly recording automation that you don't intend to have.

Something else in Sonar, which I'm sure is in Cubase somewhere - we can look at the Event List, and all data may seem to be removed, when actually there's more which is hidden. There's a button to push that shows the cropped events - then the hidden CCs are revealed and we can get at them.

Main point - Learn Cubase well enough so you can control everything in Aria comfortably.

Randy

[Bernt]

Thank you Randy and buckshead for your suggestions. I will continue working with this, and perhaps return to the matter in a few days. Obviously, I have to start by getting clear about how the panning data I have recorded accidentally has been created.

[Bernt]

This works - read the earlier post - use midi tracks with the ARIA inserted. Then on the midi section open up the automation panels (the + on the left of the track name). Set Read and Write on. Show ARIA panel, move the line of the automation up and down and and the volume slider goes with it.

There's a screen shot at http://www.box.net/shared/a9r1k95us9osimy1tnhp

This is Cubase 6, the sliders etc are controlled by the midi automation setup

Hope this helps

Ok, I've done some testing and went back to the beginning. First of all, a peculiar feature of Cubase is that instument tracks (which I have tried to use simply because they are so much more intuitive than midi tracks) also have an automation option. However, it does not seem possible to get the sliders of the plugins to go with the automation line when using this, so one wonders what the purpose of it really is?

But back to midi tracks. Now I managed to get the plug-in sliders to follow the automation line, and the sliders of the mixer. This would all be very good. However, I still suspect that there is something wrong with the Aria/Cubase (Essential) combination.

For instance, I tried a simple thing like this. I started by setting up Aria as VST and created a midi track. Then I enabled R and W and got the pan slider for the channel to obey the pan slider of the mixer, not recording anything. I continued some playing on the keyboard (still not recording anything, and suddenly I noticed that the pansliders had jumped to extreme left both in the mixer and in Aria. Why does the panning not keep steady, if I am not touching the controls?

I also continued my experimenting with my earlier instrument tracks. I tried the suggested option MIDI\FUNCTIONS\DELETE CONTROLLERS, but there just doesn't seem any way of not getting the pan knob in Aria to jump to the extreme left position at some point during playback (now, I don't have R and W enabled, and automation anyway does not seem to have any effect on the plugin for instrument tracks).

The best option still seems to be to pan Aria to the left, reduce the Aria-volume, raise the Cubase volume, and pan heavily to the right.

[Bernt]

Ok, I've done some testing and went back to the beginning. First of all, a peculiar feature of Cubase is that instument tracks (which I have tried to use simply because they are so much more intuitive than midi tracks) also have an automation option. However, it does not seem possible to get the sliders of the plugins to go with the automation line when using this, so one wonders what the purpose of it really is?

But back to midi tracks. Now I managed to get the plug-in sliders to follow the automation line, and the sliders of the mixer. This would all be very good. However, I still suspect that there is something wrong with the Aria/Cubase (Essential) combination.

For instance, I tried a simple thing like this. I started by setting up Aria as VST and created a midi track. Then I enabled R and W and got the pan slider for the channel to obey the pan slider of the mixer, not recording anything. I continued some playing on the keyboard (still not recording anything, and suddenly I noticed that the pansliders had jumped to extreme left both in the mixer and in Aria. Why does the panning not keep steady, if I am not touching the controls?

I also continued my experimenting with my earlier instrument tracks. I tried the suggested option MIDI\FUNCTIONS\DELETE CONTROLLERS, but there just doesn't seem any way of not getting the pan knob in Aria to jump to the extreme left position at some point during playback (now, I don't have R and W enabled, and automation anyway does not seem to have any effect on the plugin for instrument tracks).

The best option still seems to be to pan Aria to the left, reduce the Aria-volume, raise the Cubase volume, and pan heavily to the right.

Did dome further testing, and the problem remains. The behaviour of the pan knob in Aria is totally unpredictable when used as a plugin in Cubase Essential 5. Does not have anything to do with what I record, since the jumping of the knob to extreme left occurs also for fresh midi tracks I set up. As I said, I do get the knob of Aria to move with Cubases controls, so I think I am doing this correctly. But it does not remain in its position, just jumps back every now and then (can happen when I record, but also when simply playing). I am starting to think that this is a bug either in Cubase Essential or Aria. It is so annoying that I would be happy to upgrade to Cubase artist if I only would have reason to believe that this would help. However, there does seem to be earlier posts about panning problems connected with Aria, I found at least this

http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/showthread.php/73890-PAN-Problem


Referring to Randy's last message, I want to stress that I am not now trying to set the panning through Aria. I have tried to set it through Cubase, the thing is only that the Aria knob just does not stay in the position Cubase "wants it to be", but suddenly jumps to extreme left. Would not be a problem if this would not affect the pan, but it does.

[EricP]

By design, ARIA won't respond to automation/controllers (More info on that here (http://www.ariaengine.com/faq/index.php?action=artikel&cat=26&id=54&artlang=en&highlight=automation)). So the only way the panning can move "by itself" is if it receives a MIDI CC message. So Somehow, Cubase sends MIDI CC10=0 so the panning goes all-left. Some DAWs have a preference setting to reset all MIDI CCs to zero upon stopping playback. Would that be the case here?

[rbowser-]

Hello again, Bernt - Well now this is a drag that you're still having problems. I can't be positive since I don't use Cubase, but I feel there has to be a way for everything to behave properly in that program.-- I will add that when I was first getting into computer recording, I tried both Cubase and Sonar, and went with the latter because it felt more intuitive to me. I was able to figure out how to work it more easily, and now I've upgraded my Sonar for years, and every version has worked just fine with both the original Kontakt Player for GPO, and Aria.

Some things from reading the thread and looking at your screen shot:

--It's not quite accurate to say Aria won't respond to automation. In the strictest sense that's true, because a lot of soft synth have knobs which can be set to respond to automation - all sorts of parameters. You set up the knob you want to control, then you can move it with your mouse or other controller, and those moves will be recorded. Aria doesn't work that way, and the programmer's rationale for that is on the link Eric posted.

But Aria Does respond to CC1 (Volume in Garritan), CC7 (Aria fader levels), CC11 (alternate volume control in Garritan) and CC10 (panning) automation data. In Sonar, Cubase, and most "Daws," you can record data for those controllers, and Aria's faders and pan pots will respond.

--In your screen shot, we can see the Pan automation for Track 2 veering to the left shortly after the start of the project. In track 3, it veers off also, but doesn't go as far to the left. Then we can see attempts to move the pan back to center, but the automation line veers off again either to the left or right.

--The "R" and "W" buttons are on for those two tracks. "R" is for Read, and "W" is for write. With those on, every time you play the project, more data will be recorded, and will also be read. Turn those off if you don't want automation to be read and/or written.

Why there should be data being recorded when you say you're not moving Cubase's controls during playback is mysterious. It's movement during playback that creates that data. Perhaps your keyboard is sending out data for those controllers when you don't intend for it to.

As Eric said, some programs have a "Zero Controllers" setting. Sonar does - and it's the #1 hang up for new Garritan users who have Sonar. That setting in the Project parameters MUST be turned off, otherwise, instruments would keep zooming down in volume. Garritan instruments have to have some CC1 data in the tracks in order to control the volume - but if the recording program is always re-setting that controller to Zero every time you stop - then you're turning the volume off. So Garritan Sonar users keep that option Off as a standard way of recording.

---There's probably more to say - Maybe something in this post will be helpful. I sure hope so!

Randy

[Bernt]

Why there should be data being recorded when you say you're not moving Cubase's controls during playback is mysterious. It's movement during playback that creates that data. Perhaps your keyboard is sending out data for those controllers when you don't intend for it to.
Randy

Hello Randy

you might be on to something here. I did a very simple test I should have done long ago, the situation with the keyboard on and the situation with the keyboard off. More precisely, I simply played back my recording from the transport panel, with no R or W's on, and set the panning knob in Aria to the center. There seems to be no doubt about it: when the keyboard is on the knob turns to the left "by itself", but when the keyboard is off it stays steady in the center position.

Now, if it really is the case that the CC 10 signal comes from the keyboard, does anyone know what I can do about that (It is a M-Audio Radium 66)? Anyway there does seem to be a possible workaround here, since I can turn off the keyboard while doing the mixing. But it still is a nuisance, since it seems to be the case that this controller data also is recorded, and thus always has to be erased before mixing).

(By the way, I think there is a confusion about the screenshot, it was originally buckhead's, not mine.)

[EricP]

Hello Randy

you might be on to something here. I did a very simple test I should have done long ago, the situation with the keyboard on and the situation with the keyboard off. More precisely, I simply played back my recording from the transport panel, with no R or W's on, and set the panning knob in Aria to the center. There seems to be no doubt about it: when the keyboard is on the knob turns to the left "by itself", but when the keyboard is off it stays steady in the center position.

Now, if it really is the case that the CC 10 signal comes from the keyboard, does anyone know what I can do about that (It is a M-Audio Radium 66)? Anyway there does seem to be a possible workaround here, since I can turn off the keyboard while doing the mixing. But it still is a nuisance, since it seems to be the case that this controller data also is recorded, and thus always has to be erased before mixing).

(By the way, I think there is a confusion about the screenshot, it was originally buckhead's, not mine.)

Faulty controler knobs! I've seen that before, what an annoyance!

There is probably a way to disable the faulty knob #10 of your keyboard or re-assign it to a CC number not used by ARIA or GPO (random number, maybe 70?)... That must be somewhere in the Radium manual.

Hope this solves your issue!

[buckshead]

I don't know if your version has it, but in the FILE>PREFERENCES dialogue there is a Midi Filter. Here you set which CC's are let into and through Cubase.
If your keyboard is the source of the fault set it to filter out CC10.