How to finesse a sampled orchestra

[rJames]

I don\'t know how. But I\'m tring to learn. So with every new piece, I\'m focusing on something new.
On this one I tried to have the melody violins sound more articulated. And I spent some extra time on the woodwinds. It seems like the woodwinds start a bit softer and increase volume quickly and then taper off a bit (volume) before the next note (as if taking a breath).

I know the brass doesn\'t sound great. What is the normal volume flow for brass instruments? Louder on attack?

I\'m not saying this is good. I\'m saying this is an assignment to learn.

So, please give me your criticism.

I\'m not terribly interested in the \"what software is better\" wars. Just what can I do to emulate the real thing better.

Violin Test (\"http://www.digitanimation.net/ViolinTest5.mp3\")

And I always appreciate comments on the composition.

Thanks in advance.

[Joanne Babunovic]

Hi rJames,

Is this your composition? It is so very good. Such moving melodies and strong supporting harmony and mix of instruments overall.

Although you are only focusing on the violin lead, it’s hard not to listen comprehensively, and I’m sorry that I cannot just focus on what you are emphasizing.

Possibly the softer intro (00:00-04:00) before the first violin kicks in at :04, could use some rework. A few options are to either extend out the intro, or just begin at :04, which i think might work ok.

The initial violin melody and underlying string harmony/winds are then so so nice (:04 – :15). I want to hear all the interesting string counterpoints and harmonies, and the Timpani seems to get in the way of that. What do you think would happen if the timpani were omitted all together until :33?

The horns lead and associated counter melodies starting at :33 are very moving and wonderful, the mix and supporting instruments are also very well mixed. However, the transition from the lead violins (15: - :32) into this part could use more time to develop, a also maybe some intstrument remixing to bring out the true intention of this transition. Again, I know my comments are off-topic of your focus, but this is such a nice piece, I just can’t help myself!

Have you considered staying with and developing that wonderful melody/harmony started at :32? I was somewhat disapointed At :49 you go sort of into an abstract genre. Possibly there is a place for this later, but how I wish you would have continued building on what you started at :32. This is all composition and structure and not at all what your focus is. Again, I’m sorry.

Hope there is something helpful in this critique that supports the particular issues you are working on. Again, such potential and wonderful melodies/counter harmonies, choice of instruments and mix to convey are excellent :04 -:15 (minus timpani) and :33-:48. Areas that you might want to revisit are :00 - :04, :16-:32, and :49-end. Thank you. Please let me know if you composed.

[Thomas_J]

Nice piece.

You need to work on coherence, though. It sounds as if you just composed as you went along. It usually help to make a layout of your music first. Write down simple things such as harmonies, melody, dynamics and structure. Then compose a sketch with a piano sound to see if the composition feels coherent.

As far as midi mockuping goes the most important thing is to have expressive and great sounding samples. From thereon it\'s just a matter of technique.

One big problem with your mix is the balance between the instruments. The woodwinds are WAY too loud. Also when trombones / horns are playing harmonies to support the rest of the orchestra playing the melody / counterpoint they should never sound brassy. (That means you should make it Forte at most - if it sounds brassy it will ruin the density of the piece and make it sound thinner)

Stay clear of passages that don\'t sound real when working with samples. That means runs (unless you have recorded performed runs) trills and the likes. They tend to bring unwanted attention to themselves. The most important instruments to balance in a midi orchestrated piece is the tuba and double basses. Find the proper volume level for those first and carry on with the rest of the instrument. This is a tedious process and is why most people use templates for their work.

Good luck!


Thomas

[sporter]

Originally posted by rJames:
I don\'t know how. But I\'m tring to learn. So with every new piece, I\'m focusing on something new.
On this one I tried to have the melody violins sound more articulated. And I spent some extra time on the woodwinds. It seems like the woodwinds start a bit softer and increase volume quickly and then taper off a bit (volume) before the next note (as if taking a breath).

I know the brass doesn\'t sound great. What is the normal volume flow for brass instruments? Louder on attack?

I\'m not saying this is good. I\'m saying this is an assignment to learn.

So, please give me your criticism.

I\'m not terribly interested in the \"what software is better\" wars. Just what can I do to emulate the real thing better.

Violin Test (\"http://www.digitanimation.net/ViolinTest5.mp3\")

And I always appreciate comments on the composition.

Thanks in advance. <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">I can\'t offer anything with regards to the \"finesse\" thing, but this piece sounds damn good to me!

[handz]

hmm that piece sounds very nice!
Maybe you could say us what library You using?(strings-SISS?)

[Gary M. Thomas]

Yes... what librarys, please.. (especially the strings library) ? I really like the composition. Good job images/icons/wink.gif

[dpasdernick]

rJames,

I am always astounded at the talent pool here! Very nice piece. Both inspiring and depressing as it makes me realize I have so much to learn! You know with the talent in this forum I think we might stage a mutiny at Media Ventures! Who\'s with me?!!! graemlins/tounge_images/icons/smile.gif

Darren

[handz]

Darren: I dont like Media ventures music (..I hate it but don´t wanna be rough images/icons/wink.gif )
I think that many composers on northernsounds can compose better music...
Ok...Im silent
graemlins/tounge_images/icons/smile.gif

[carlmsmith]

rJames-
Glad you got a response from these folks so I could learn something, too. I can see validity myself in T.J.\'s comments about the brass and woodwinds, but I even liked the woodwind runs and trills, so what kind of tin ear do I have?

Any way, if you composed this I have to say its very appealing. I know its disconcerting to you to get comments on any and all aspects of the piece when you are just looking for violin critique, but thats just the way it works here!

Carl

[rJames]

Oh, no. I love it. Thank you for commenting. That is exactly what I wanted.

I\'m hoping to learn about finesse in any aspect. In this piece, I just did a LOT of tweaking to the viloin to see if I could make it sound real (or as real as possible with sampled library)

I will study these comments over and over.

I too have a tin ear. But I\'m working on it. I will gain insight as I tweak this piece to these professional critiques.

This is my fourth orchestral piece, so everything is just an exercise. I\'m not really focusing on composition and (you\'ve found me out) am just wandering aimlessly.

Its all just stream of consciousness.

Can\'t tell you the library name or we\'d be back in the software wars. images/icons/wink.gif

[Alexcremers]

It\'s GPO.

What music did you make before?

------------
Alex Cremers

[Tarkio Road]

Don\'t worry about software wars. This forum is called \"Sample Library Discussion.\" If we don\'t mention the libraries used we have nothing to discuss other than music theory. I treasure the comments on libraries, even if there are a few rants among them! images/icons/smile.gif

[rJames]

Joanne, yes I composed it, but as I\'ve admitted its all just stream of consciousness. Since these are exercises for myself, they don\'t really develop. I would revisit the opening or combine parts if I were actually doing a song.

I\'m afraid you\'ve found me out. I have some innate ability but haven\'t studied so I\'m not quite sure how to follow your instruction.

Softer intro; I could probably do that.
:16-32 Was supposed to be a quiet open spot to contrast the run into :33. (The run up is my favorite part) Can you give me any thoughts?

The ending; I think I could have developed the brass lines :32-:44 a lot more. But I was done with this exercise so I found some interesting chords on my guitar and orchestrated them into the same theme from :32-:44-its really just the same bit but with different notes.

PS Thank you for posting. I have heard from others how helpful you are. And I think you open a thread up to some who might not comment at all.

[rJames]

Here are the other three in order.

One Man At War (\"http://www.digitanimation.net/OneManAtWar.mp3\")

Sleigh Ride (\"http://www.digitanimation.net/SleighRideGPO3.mp3\")

From the Depths (\"http://www.digitanimation.net/FromTheDepths.mp3\")

[Joanne Babunovic]

Hi rJames,

So this was just a stream of consciousness? Alrighty then....

Please know that my comments are from the average Jo listener. I don\'t have the ability to point out specific technical mix issues. I am a begineer in orchestration/compositon, but from my own trial and error, know what it takes to express these types of melodies as you have done so well.

Regarding the intro :00 - :04. It is very short, unestablished, and soft, then all the sudden the louder lead violin starts in at :04. So many alternatives to readjust this, maybe just start the piece at :04, and that would solve issue.

The only other area you might want to revisit is the transition from that great violin melody into that even greater horn part. The transition part I have issue with runs :15 - :33. I think this may be a mix problem more than anything. I wish I could give specifics, I just can\'t follow it as I can the other parts and it is lacking a clear voice and purpose when compared to :04-:15 and :33 - :48.

:33 - :48 is brilliant. Could you maybe repeat that same melody/harmonies again rather than going into the more minor abstract slant so soon?

And of course, your mix of strings/winds :04-:15 is perfect. Sometimes we use percusion to hide and create emotion and depth and the last thing you want to do is hide this! Timpani somewhat gets in the way, and again, see what happens by removing timpani until around :33.

Like others, I too would like to better understand the libraries and specifically which instruments in that library were playing. If you could please break up your explanation into two parts:
:04 - :15 and :33-:48. Thanks rJames. I want what you have with respect to expression of melody/harmony, and best of luck with your compostion.

[rJames]

Joanne, thank you for even more of your time.

Here\'s the quick response to the samples. I\'ve actually got a paying client (graphics) who\'s gotten in the way of my practising today so I won\'t be taking a look at the file.

Its all GPO. The first part are 2 solo violins (Gagli, Strad) doubling (slight offsets) the violin melody. The counterpoint is Solo cello1, solo viola 1, cello ens 2, viol ens 1. Woods are all soso instr too. Bassoon, eng horn, oboe classical solo, flute V solo.

I have a very soft violins lush and cellos lush under the first part.

The horn melody at the end has all of these instruments plus add in trum solo, tromb solo1, bass tbone solo1,2,
maybe a tuba solo1, piccolo trum solo1, fr horn solo 1,2
bass viol solo1 and ens 2.

Maybe other stuff but that\'s about it.

[Joanne Babunovic]

Thank you for the explanation. It is very helpful and a big clue knowing these passages were constructed with the use of solo instruments vs. a predominant use of ensemble. Even more amazing (probably due to the composer, not the library) is that you used violins, cello, viola, just as a real orchestra would. So often the samples or the composition construction lacks, and we are forced to use the stronger \"lush samples\" in the lower register i.e. sustained strings used as the cello part. This piece proves the importance of writing as a composer would for a live orchestra.

Tempted to buy GPO (one lib I can afford) and try to reproduce this. Sorry you have to actually \"work\" today and thanks for your response.

Joanne

[Rich Pell]

RJ i like the beginning of \'in the depths\" and the \'jazzy\" chords at the end of Violin test. images/icons/smile.gif Rich