My dream electric guitar library [Archive]

James Thornton

08-04-2003, 09:59 PM

I saw some requests on the Trilogy thread wishing Eric would take on electric guitar. Rather than thread hijacking, I thought I\'d step in way over my head and give my two cents here on what I believe it would take to make a killer electric guitar plug-in.

Answer: Great samples + great effects optimized to work together.

My premise is basically that the latest Yamaha, Korg and Roland synths all have a few killer guitar sounds (I love the Match Drive patch on my XV-5080), but they lack the breadth of articulations (and velocity layers, etc) to really do a full guitar emulation. Nevertheless, despite a puny amount of samples (by Giga standards) they can sound amazingly good in moderation, because they have great effects carefully tuned to the samples they do have.

The other half of this argument is that samples alone won\'t do it. For one, playing two notes at the same time with samples misses the kick of the real thing because it lacks (among other things) the intermodulation distortion you get when you do this on a real guitar/amp rig. On the other hand my Match Drive patch, with the XV effects, kicks like the real thing when I play two notes together.

Now it\'s entirely possible that Quantum Leap Strat (or VintAudio Clean Electric Guitars) plus Amplitude plus the right amount of tweaking would give me what I want, but I\'m reluctant to drop that much change on an experiment. Also I doubt I could do as good a job of matching up the samples to the effects as a real sonic developer could do.

For what its worth...

James

Scott Cairns

08-04-2003, 10:09 PM

James, I\'m passionate enough about seeing a lead guitar VSTi that I\'ll chime in here too. images/icons/wink.gif

I did ask Eric about a guitar lib with good lead sounds some months ago but ultimately I would like to see it presented in an engine like Trilogy, with ADSR, CC controls, etc as mentioned in the other post.

Here\'s hoping....

YO Eric, you reading this dude? images/icons/grin.gif

James Thornton

08-04-2003, 10:35 PM

Scott,

I\'m agreeing. I think to do this right it really needs to be a VSTi.

Regards,
James

SCARBEE

08-04-2003, 11:36 PM

Originally posted by James Thornton:
Scott,

I\'m agreeing. I think to do this right it really needs to be a VSTi.

Regards,
James I hope not! images/icons/wink.gif Why can\'t it be a sample library?

Munsie

08-04-2003, 11:47 PM

Virtual Guitarist and other currently available samples pretty much covers rythm playing, however I agree a good versatile lead guitar library would be slick. VSti, stand alone, whateve works. images/icons/smile.gif

Alexcremers

08-05-2003, 12:28 AM

Sorry, but leads alone will not do it for me. There has to be some outstanding acoustic guitars in it too or else...ore else...mmmmm...or else I\'m not buying it! images/icons/wink.gif
Alright, let\'s say fifty-fifty. And in that electric department I like to see all kinds of playing styles, not just leads. Heck, why not name the VSTi \"LEADLESS\" and drop the leads altogether.

------------
Alex Cremers

Chadwick

08-05-2003, 02:17 AM

With amp emulating plugins like Amplitude, why would you make the sample developer reinvent the wheel by requiring the guitar articulations to be presented in a VSTi module?

The way I see it, if the sampler has the necessary articulation control - and V3 will probably have more than enough - all you need then is a way to process the sound through an amp model.

That way you get to choose your favourite amp plugin, and don\'t waste money on one you perhaps don\'t need in the end.

Alexcremers

08-05-2003, 02:47 AM

Originally posted by Chadwick:
With amp emulating plugins like Amplitude, why would you make the sample developer reinvent the wheel by requiring the guitar articulations to be presented in a VSTi module?

The way I see it, if the sampler has the necessary articulation control - and V3 will probably have more than enough - all you need then is a way to process the sound through an amp model.

That way you get to choose your favourite amp plugin, and don\'t waste money on one you perhaps don\'t need in the end. Exactly! Thank you.

------------
Alex Cremers

mitchb2

08-05-2003, 05:58 AM

Originally posted by SCARBEE:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by James Thornton:
Scott,

I hope not! images/icons/wink.gif Why can\'t it be a sample library? <hr /></blockquote>I think for guitar to be done right, the meat will be in the effects/processing. Thus VSTi.
I\'ll keep dreaming about it, and running synth leads through stomp boxes. images/icons/smile.gif

Scott Cairns

08-05-2003, 06:40 AM

Sorry Scarbee, no offence intended toward your awesome libraries!!

Rick, can you point out any sites that talk about Amplitude? I would like to learn more about it.

Cheers, Scott.

Bardstown Audio

08-05-2003, 07:10 AM

Originally posted by mitchb2:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by SCARBEE:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by James Thornton:
Scott,

I hope not! images/icons/wink.gif Why can\'t it be a sample library? <hr /></blockquote>I think for guitar to be done right, the meat will be in the effects/processing. Thus VSTi.
I\'ll keep dreaming about it, and running synth leads through stomp boxes. images/icons/smile.gif <hr /></blockquote>There has been a great deal of confusion over the differences between VSTi\'s and samplers.

The sound of instruments and programmability are identical in both VSTi\'s and samplers. There is absolutely nothing you can do with the sound of an instrument in a VSTi that you can\'t do in a sampler.

Generally instruments are first of all programmed in a sampler, and then the VSTi is constructed from these instruments that were programmed in the sampler. There is absolutely no way an instrument can sound different or better as a VSTi than what it does in a sampler.

The primary reason for VSTi\'s is for copy protection.

Kip McGinnis
Bardstown Audio
www.bardstownaudio.com (\"http://www.bardstownaudio.com\")

Eric Doggett

08-05-2003, 07:31 AM

Hey guys -

Another option you may consider is sub\'ing out someone to do the guitar work! images/icons/wink.gif

http://www.doggettstudios.com/rock.mp3 (\"http://www.doggettstudios.com/rock.mp3\")

Eric

David Abraham

08-05-2003, 08:36 AM

Originally posted by Bardstown Audio:

The primary reason for VSTi\'s is for copy protection.
I -hate- this kind of statement.

-david abraham

P de Caumette

08-05-2003, 02:42 PM

I\'d love to see a Trilogy type of guitar VSTI with great:

nylon
acoustic 6 strings
acoustic 12 strings
jazz
funk
rock crunch
heavy/shred

and maybe

dobro, banjo and mandolin thrown in there for good measure

that would probably take a lot of work ... images/icons/rolleyes.gif

Alexcremers

08-05-2003, 03:19 PM

Originally posted by P de Caumette:
I\'d love to see a Trilogy type of guitar VSTI with great:

nylon
acoustic 6 strings
acoustic 12 strings
jazz

: Plucked, not strummed.

Cremers, Alex Cremers

Hehe, do you get it?

KingIdiot

08-05-2003, 03:57 PM

The sound of instruments and programmability are identical in both VSTi\'s and samplers. There is absolutely nothing you can do with the sound of an instrument in a VSTi that you can\'t do in a sampler.Thats about one of the most incorrect statements I\'ve read here. Custom VSTi\'s will ALWAYS be able to do more than a simple sampler counterpart, even if its based on a sampler engine. Add to it that features are generally simplified for a particular instrument so that things can get done quicker.

They may work similar on some basic levels, but thats sort of like saying my XP30 and Gigastudio 2.5 are identical because they both use waveforms and filters.

Bardstown Audio

08-05-2003, 05:03 PM

Originally posted by KingIdiot:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />
The sound of instruments and programmability are identical in both VSTi\'s and samplers. There is absolutely nothing you can do with the sound of an instrument in a VSTi that you can\'t do in a sampler.Thats about one of the most incorrect statements I\'ve read here. Custom VSTi\'s will ALWAYS be able to do more than a simple sampler counterpart, even if its based on a sampler engine. Add to it that features are generally simplified for a particular instrument so that things can get done quicker.

They may work similar on some basic levels, but thats sort of like saying my XP30 and Gigastudio 2.5 are identical because they both use waveforms and filters. <hr /></blockquote>Samplers and VSTi\'s do sound the same. Both samplers and VSTi\'s either stream edited wave file samples from the hard disk or load them into RAM for playback, so the playback sound is completely identical, so long as you have a clean audio signal path from the sampler or VSTi.

The sound of effects such as filters can vary with different samplers or VSTi\'s because some may be more transparent while others may color the sound. This is also true of effects plug-ins. Some EQ\'s, filters, compressors, and reverb plug-ins provide transparency while others provide coloration. Effects processing is subjective... some people may want a clean transparent sound, while others may want coloration. If a sampler or VSTi does not provide effects processing to your taste, you can very easily insert an appropriate plug-in on your sampler or VSTi track that will, so there is absolutely nothing magical or mystical about the sound of a VSTi as opposed to a sampler.

With most quality samplers you pretty much get all of the complete possibilities in terms of effects processing and programming features for all instruments, though the sound character of these effects may vary slightly from sampler to sampler. If an effect you are wanting for a particular instrument is not present in the sampler or VSTi, you can very easily insert the effect plug-in of your choice on the instrument track. With a VSTi you are only given the effects and programming features that are useful for a particular instrument.

Kip McGinnis
Bardstown Audio
www.bardstownaudio.com (\"http://www.bardstownaudio.com\")

spectrum

08-05-2003, 05:18 PM

That\'s not actually correct Kip.....you\'re right that VSTi isn\'t inherently better than a sampler....but:

Different sample playback engines do sound quite different. There are numerous ways to change the engine and sample interpolation to alter the color of the sound.

In our instruments, we tweak the sample playback engine to optimize the sound for the application its intended. For example, Trilogy was tweaked for a certain kind of Bass response to our specs....similar to how you would \"voice\" a piano, or optimize the electronics in an electric guitar or bass to get the best possible sound. This is really different than just an EQ or Filter difference.

The samples in our instruments are only part of the story, we tweak the playback engine, interpolation, filters, etc and its the combination of these things and the samples/programming that makes the final sound of the instrument. Software coding can have an enormous affect on the quality of sample playback....and if you were to play the same core samples from Trilogy in Giga or Kontakt, they wouldn\'t sound as groovy.

Try taking a set of the same samples and port them to a Roland, Kurzweil, Giga, Akai, Kontakt and EXS24 samplers and compare them side by side through the same D/A converter.....you\'ll be amazed at how different they can be.

spectrum

spectrum

08-05-2003, 05:52 PM

Originally posted by Bardstown Audio:Samplers and VSTi\'s do sound the same. [/QB]Only when the core sampler engine and the VSTi engine are identical. That\'s probably the case with HALion and The Grand or String Edition for example.

But there\'s noticable differences between the HALion engine and the UVI engine for example. (Strictly on basic sample playback.)

spectrum

Bardstown Audio

08-05-2003, 06:10 PM

Eric, I have noticed that there are \"subtle\" differences in sound between Giga, Kontakt, EXS24, Kurzweil, HALion 1 and HALion 2, when using the same identical audio hardware and converters for monitoring, and that this has to do with the playback engines as you discussed. As you have stated, this does not mean that one is better than the other. I did not venture into this in my posts because I thought it would confuse the matter being discussed, and I was trying to keep my postings as simple as possible. I very much appreciate your explanation on varying sample playback engines.

Kip

spectrum

08-05-2003, 06:32 PM

You got it Kip!

spectrum

James Thornton

08-05-2003, 06:45 PM

Originally posted by Chadwick:
With amp emulating plugins like Amplitude, why would you make the sample developer reinvent the wheel by requiring the guitar articulations to be presented in a VSTi module?
Actually I was hoping that one of the sample developers here would team up with one of the effects developer to make a joint product. As I argued before, optimizing the samples and effects to work well together is a significant component of the sound.

James Thornton

08-05-2003, 07:53 PM

There has been a great deal of confusion over the differences between VSTi\'s and samplers.

The sound of instruments and programmability are identical in both VSTi\'s and samplers. There is absolutely nothing you can do with the sound of an instrument in a VSTi that you can\'t do in a sampler.
I don\'t want to belabor this point too much as many of the falacies in this argument have already been pointed out. However, for overdriven electric guitar (which is the computer-based sound I\'m dreaming of) the effects are at least half of the sound and these effects are highly non-linear (which is just a fancy way of saying that if you play two notes at the same time thru a guitar amplifier the sound you get is NOT the same as you would get if you play each of them individually and then mix them together like a sampler does).

The successful emulation of these effects is why, for example, patch PR-G:074 Match Drive on my XV-5080 sounds great despite a puny amount of samples. It just isn\'t very versatile because of the lack of articulations, etc. (Where\'s my mutes, hammer-ons, harmonics, vibrato, etc.)

What I want is something with

a) Great effects

b) Quality samples covering a broad variety of articulations

c) Skillful soundcrafting to make the effects and samples sound great together

d) Thoughtful programming for playability, e.g. mod wheel cross fades to feedback or pitch bends that bend just one string and not another (a common guitar technique).

While I might be able to achieve this with Amplitube (sorry I misspelled it on my first post) and Nick or Franky\'s libraries I\'m sure that someone like Eric could achieve dramatically better results which I would be happy to pay for (within reason).

A customer,
James

Bardstown Audio

08-05-2003, 08:36 PM

There is no such thing as saying that specific guitar amps and effects are more suitable for specific guitar models; no more than saying that specific plug-in effects are more suitable for specific sampled guitars. With real electric guitars, guitar musicians have their favorite strings, amps, eq settings, outboard effects, and reverbs. With sampled guitars you can pick your favorite quality samples based on the sound you are looking for, such as clean Strats, Tele\'s, Les Pauls, etc., and combine these with your favorite amp simulation plug-ins, eq\'s, reverbs, etc. You can also combine a great deal of these things into a VSTi as well. Either way, the end results would be very similar. One would not necessarily be better than the other. You would pick the guitar samples and plug-in effects that are most suitable to your personal taste, or if your favorite guitar sounds and effects happen to be in a VSTi, then you would buy the VSTi.

Kip McGinnis
Bardstown Audio
www.bardstownaudio.com (\"http://www.bardstownaudio.com\")

KingIdiot

08-05-2003, 09:02 PM

I honestly dont think its going to be Eric and Spectrasonics that does it.

My money\'s on someone like Scarbee, or someone who\'s going to focus on so much of hte details that they\'ll get grey hairs. We\'ve already seen what \"quick\" Guitar VSTi\'s do, and where they fall short.

Maybe VSL images/icons/wink.gif . Anyhow, I woudn\'t dicount that this could be done fantastically in a sampler, possibly Giga 3. Its really about feature sets here that we\'re talking about. With a versatile and somewhat modular setup a developer could make a VERY interesting sample set outside of a VSTi.

My only problem with Kip\'s argumetn was the statement the programability is the same, which is completely untrue as a broad generalization on VSTi\'s. A custom interface, even if its based on an existing engine, will go miles beyond what a developer could do in a traditional sampler since the data can be manipulated in so many more ways, even compared to a sample set is based off of a modular structure. A VSTi\'s interface \"integration\" will be more key and \"programming\" is more specific (at the program level) than a developer could do with limited tools that are handed to them .

SCARBEE

08-05-2003, 11:55 PM

Originally posted by KingIdiot:
My money\'s on someone like Scarbee, or someone who\'s going to focus on so much of hte details that they\'ll get grey hairs.hehe images/icons/grin.gif

James Thornton

08-06-2003, 07:42 PM

Originally posted by KingIdiot:
Anyhow, I woudn\'t dicount that this could be done fantastically in a sampler, possibly Giga 3... I sincerely appreciate all the thoughtful replies but I really don\'t understand how this can work (at least in any practical sense). As I noted previously playing two string at the same time thru a guitar amp results in a sound that is neither mathematically or perceptually the same as playing each note individually and then adding them together.

Are you saying that our hypothetical sample developer is going to sample all the common combinations of notes played together?

Are you saying that in the mix the difference wouldn\'t be noticeable?

How is this supposed to work with just samples?

Same question about my note bend example, e.g if I bend up the G string on my guitar to play the same note as I\'m already playing on my B string, the sound you get thru a guitar amp turned up loud is not the same as you would get by sampling each note individually and then adding them together. I supposed you could sample these as effects but the number of samples grows pretty fast. You also need to sample this effect at multiple speeds (or use Kontact - which is more than just a sampler).

Same story with sampling guitars with effects. Say I\'d like to sample 5 guitars thru 10 amps/effect setups. That\'s 5*10=50 times the effort of sampling one guitar. This doesn\'t seem practical to me.

Sorry for being so dense, but doing this just with a sampler doesn\'t seem practical to me.

Regards,
James

James Thornton

08-06-2003, 08:46 PM

Originally posted by Bardstown Audio:
There is no such thing as saying that specific guitar amps and effects are more suitable for specific guitar models; no more than saying that specific plug-in effects are more suitable for specific sampled guitars...
Kip, I agree with everything you said, but I think you\'re overestimating my skill as a sonic designer and thus missing my point. I may recognise the guitar sound I\'m looking for when I hear it, but that doesn\'t mean I know what guitar, using which pickups and tone settings, thru what amp/speaker/mike, with what eq and effects settings is required to give me that sound. (Guitar players and studio engineers spend years learning these skills.) I recently bought Amplitube and I\'ve spent some time trying it out with the samples that came with Kontact, but frankly there\'s at least a half a dozen guitar patches on any of the latest generation of synthesizers that sounds better to my ears. This is not a knock on Amplitube (it\'s quite amazing really). I\'m just saying that the total is more than the sum of the parts.

Along similar lines I believe I heard on this forum that Quantum Leap Strat hadn\'t sold as well as expected. I own two of Nick\'s libraries and I\'m sure the quality of the library is superb. However, I\'m not looking for clean guitar library, I\'m looking for a singing overdriven lead (e.g. like a more complete version of the beautiful Plexi Lead on his QL Guitar & Bass library). Now I might be able to get that sound if I bought QL Strat and put it together with the right effects. Ok then show me. And not just that it can be done. Give me some patch/effects setting that make it happen and that I can start tweaking from.

I\'m sure that if people had some examples like that, that QL Strat would sell a lot more copies. (I also think they\'d sell 4 times as many copies at half the price - I know I would have bought one - but that\'s another discussion.)

Anyway, please excuse my ranting.

Regards,
James

keytar

08-06-2003, 09:28 PM

I\'ve been using QL Guitar And Bass, and VintAudio\'s clean guitars running through external effects units with good results.

KingIdiot

08-06-2003, 09:39 PM

Considering the ideas that VSL has in regards to real resonance in isntruments (take a look at MIR), I think it will be possible with sample based architechture, and possibly some sort of a plug in combined. It doesn\'t really *HAVE* to be a VSTi that does this.

Besides, who knows what\'ll be in Giga 3, I\'ve heard rumours of some pretty incredibly cool stuff.

Bardstown Audio

08-06-2003, 10:07 PM

James,

Perhaps Nick and/or Franky will chime in on this discussion and make some recommendations as to which combination of guitar samples and effects may achieve the sound you are looking for. I am sure it would be most helpful for them in order to answer your questions if you could be as descriptive as possible as to the precise sound you are wanting... better yet if you could provide them with an example. In addition to various guitar amp plug-ins that are available, Samplitude has some really great tools for this sort of thing with their Amp Simulation effects. You can get more information and download a demo here.. http://www.samplitude.com/ (\"http://www.samplitude.com/\")

Kip McGinnis
Bardstown Audio
www.bardstownaudio.com (\"http://www.bardstownaudio.com\")

SCARBEE

08-06-2003, 11:06 PM

Hi James,

I believe you mean a physical modelling VSTi - where the Amp is a part of the VSTI.

Otherwise there will be no difference between a sampled library + FX and a VSTi (with samples + FX)

Just the looks - and hey - we make music not cartoons...

Alexcremers

08-06-2003, 11:46 PM

Anyway, I don\'t think Eric is going to do \"Leadless\" or any other guitar based VSTi. In another thread about Stylus 2 he gave the posters a clear positive indication that something like that is in the works. Here I didn\'t feel one positive hint towards a possible guitar project from the man himself.
The dream is over, boys. First I don\'t win the prize and now this.

It could all be happening in secrety, of course. images/icons/grin.gif

------------
Alex Cremers

spectrum

08-07-2003, 12:19 AM

Alex.....that\'s really funny!

I\'ll give you a hint....we are working on tons of new things in many areas. We have irons in many fires...so to speak. All suggestions, feedback and ideas are more than welcome on anything people would like to see us do.

Of course, on anything we haven\'t announced yet, I\'m not going to say a word about it (especially here!!!!)

We have many secret things in the works for our current instruments and we also have many secret plans for new instruments too!

We don\'t announce anything anymore until it is ready though.

Don\'t draw any conclusions one way or another.....there\'s lots of possibilites and we\'ll keep you all guessing until the right time comes to reveal what\'s in the works over here. Suffice it to say that there\'s a lot going on, and its very cool indeed!

spectrum images/icons/wink.gif

Alexcremers

08-07-2003, 10:46 AM

Then there is some hope left, that\'s good. I think I\'ll make through the day now.

Name of the VST instrument: PLECTRUM

My idea is simple and close to Spectrasonics current concepts of instruments, namely, a VST instrument that\'s all about guitar devided in 3 main sections: Acoustic, Electric, Processed & Effects.

In section 1 we\'ll find an acoustic fingerstyle folk guitar with release samples, automated fretnoises, bend notes when hitting hard, etc.
Also the nylon 6 string should get an equally decent treatment. Fingerstyle (no plectrum) would be the best choice, I think.

In the Electric section you\'ll find all kinds of amplified clean (or as good as) guitars. The classics!

In the third section the processed, deformed, strange & weird guitarsounds shelter. Instant songmakers. You know, the onces that will make this baby sell like mobile phones.

------------
Alex Cremers

James Thornton

08-12-2003, 07:44 PM

Originally posted by Bardstown Audio:

Perhaps Nick and/or Franky will chime in on this discussion and make some recommendations as to which combination of guitar samples and effects may achieve the sound you are looking for. I am sure it would be most helpful for them in order to answer your questions if you could be as descriptive as possible as to the precise sound you are wanting...
Kip,

Thanks for the reply. Actually I was hoping to hear from Nick or Franky. (Maybe they already have something like this in mind, but just want to keep a lid on it until they\'re ready to ship. images/icons/wink.gif

A couple of examples of sounds I\'m looking for are:

Patch PR-G:074 from my Roland XV-5080. Not sure what guitar this is, but from the name presumably it\'s played thru a Matchless amp. The patch is great for 3 string plucking lines. It nicely straddles clean (if you play it soft) to overdriven if you hit the keys harder.

Plexi lead from Nick\'s Quantum Leap Guitar and Bass library (which I own), but with the variety of QL Strat.

Regards,
James