PMI Bösendorfer 290 bug fix

[Michiel Post]

Hi all,
The PMI Bösendorfer 290 library had a bug: the Bb1 note in the Bos290 Dry 8 layer no release patch was tuned as B1.
I finally had time to fix this and the articulation is on-line at:
our website (\"http://www.postaudiomedia.com/basishtml/updates.html\")

[tonylombardi]

Well it\'s nice that you\'re fixing some things. But when are you going to fix the Wet Sustain pedal down samples from F#2 - B2? Like I said in the email I sent you, to which you didn\'t reply, there\'s terrible velocity switching in these notes. As you go from low to high velocity, the sound gets dull in the middle. The highest and lowest velocities are far brighter. This doesn\'t happen in the pedal up samples.
This is so obvious that I can\'t imagine how it was missed. Also there\'s tuning problems in some notes. I\'m thinking I probably should\'ve bought the Bardstown Bosendorfer. images/icons/confused.gif

Anthony Lombardi
www.mp3.com/alombardi (\"http://www.mp3.com/alombardi\")

[tonylombardi]

Actually I just double checked, and the whole region from C#2 to B2, pedal down, is pretty bad.

[Alan Russell]

Mr. Post,

Why is there such a huge difference in the quality of sound between your PMI Borsendorfer and Bardstownaudio Borsendorfer? The quality difference is quite evident to my ears. Do they have a different technique employed here? Every note is of equal weight in sound.

Can you educate us a bit here being the players.

Alan Russell

[tonylombardi]

It sounds like you\'re mistaken Alan. Post Audio didn\'t do the Bardstown Bos. Kip McGinnis did it. He\'s an entirely different developer.
http://www.bardstownaudio.com/ (\"http://www.bardstownaudio.com/\")

Anthony Lombardi
www.mp3.com/alombardi (\"http://www.mp3.com/alombardi\")

[noenoeil]

QUOTE]Originally posted by tonylombardi:
Actually I just double checked, and the whole region from C#2 to B2, pedal down, is pretty bad. [/QUOTE]

Hi Tony, I have just checked the C#2>B2 region (8 and 16 layers WET patches/pedal down, PMI Bos full ed.) and the problem is not that obvious to me. As I\'m not a piano player (I program more than I play), I may not be as picky as you are.
Are you talking about full or lite edition btw?
I will record this region at several velocities and post the results if needed, my ears can\'t be that wrong... Anyway I\'m sure Mr. Post will reply and help you as soon as he can.

Christian

[Michiel Post]

Originally posted by tonylombardi:
Well it\'s nice that you\'re fixing some things. But when are you going to fix the Wet Sustain pedal down samples from F#2 - B2? Like I said in the email I sent you, to which you didn\'t reply, there\'s terrible velocity switching in these notes. As you go from low to high velocity, the sound gets dull in the middle. The highest and lowest velocities are far brighter. This doesn\'t happen in the pedal up samples.
This is so obvious that I can\'t imagine how it was missed. Also there\'s tuning problems in some notes. I\'m thinking I probably should\'ve bought the Bardstown Bosendorfer. images/icons/confused.gif

Anthony Lombardi
www.mp3.com/alombardi (\"http://www.mp3.com/alombardi\") <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Dear Anthony,
First of all let me say I respect your complaint but personally I don\'t hold with publicly putting
this sort of thing in a public forum. I did reply to your previous email and always try to answer customers as soon as possible. Maybe this email escaped my attention. In case it did I am sorry.

I will investigate your complaint and report back (both here and personally).
Like stated by others; this complaint is new to me; several 100\'s of users never noticed this so I will have to investigate and report back before I have a suggestion as to what is wrong here.

Best,
Michiel Post

[Michiel Post]

Originally posted by Alan Russell:
Mr. Post,

Why is there such a huge difference in the quality of sound between your PMI Borsendorfer and Bardstownaudio Borsendorfer? The quality difference is quite evident to my ears. Do they have a different technique employed here? Every note is of equal weight in sound.

Can you educate us a bit here being the players.

Alan Russell <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Dear Alan,
Can you be more precise; what is your exact question? What do you call a huge difference? A difference in sound?, timbre?, eveness? response?
I don\'t mind answering but don\'t quite understand your question.
Best,

Michiel Post

[Michiel Post]

Originally posted by Michiel Post:
I will investigate your complaint and report back (both here and personally).

Michiel Post [/QB]<font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">OK, I checked the regions in the editor and there were some bad assignments.

I fixed them and replaced the latest update on our website. The update is simple and fixes all the regions between C2-C3 in the WET sustain pedal down patches that were affected.

The direct link to the update is:
Bos290 update (\"http://www.postaudiomedia.com/updates/PMI%20STEINWAY%20D%20CLASSIC%20update%203.3.zip\")

Michiel Post

[Alan Russell]

Mr. Post,

I can\'t disect why but Bardstownaudio BOSE has more meat on its sound when I strilke the keys and or chords. I find the PMI BOSE in the Giga Piano class, a bit thin and metalic in sound. Kip must have some good gear and or technique in capturing this great piano which I like overall.


Just my honest opinion.

Alan Russell

[Bruce A. Richardson]

Originally posted by Alan Russell:
Mr. Post,

I can\'t disect why but Bardstownaudio BOSE has more meat on its sound when I strilke the keys and or chords. I find the PMI BOSE in the Giga Piano class, a bit thin and metalic in sound. Kip must have some good gear and or technique in capturing this great piano which I like overall.


Just my honest opinion.

Alan Russell <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Hi Guys,

We all have an idea of what \"piano\" sounds like in our heads. However, that single sound isn\'t always the right sound for a given production.

One of the huge challenges in making piano libraries is making that choice of what imaging style and relative distance will be used. Kip\'s Bosendorfer (a fine piano), is mic\'ed in a close fashion which brings a great deal of presence and also evenness to the instrument.

Michiel\'s mic plot on the Bosendorfer is a bit more distant in both cases. This works well for a different kind of production. It also, however, makes the inevitable mapping challenges even more challenging, since more intervening \"living\" air between microphone and instrument open up exponentially more imaging variables.

You may not realize it, but even a puff of slow moving air (like the \"jet stream\" from an AC vent) can literally blow the audio off course as the microphone hears it.

I\'m not saying that\'s the case or negating anyone\'s heartfelt feeling here, I hope. I just want to increase awareness that every technique for recording samples pays off in positive and negative consequences...and pianos tend to bring out the very worst in the paradigm.

The important thing to remember is that the very same sample can sound wrong in one setting and perfect in another. This goes for the Bardstown Bosendorfer as much as it goes for the Trachtman-C, as much as it goes for the ArtVist Malmsjo...each one has a strength which no other can match, and an accompanying weakness. This is the nature of our art. There is no perfection, only the balance of compromises.

[Franky]

Also if I\'m not mistaken, Allan is comparing the 2 pianos when in fact he only owns the Bardstown audio Bosendorfer (please correct me if I\'m wrong, you\'ve been promoting Kip\'s bosendorfer so much on Tascam\'s forum and on this one, making so many demos for him I\'m assuming you only own Kip\'s), which in my opinion is really unfair.....

If you\'re going to really say that Kip\'s piano is better , than to me that means you own both and have come to this conclusion by using both during a reasonable length of time, just comparing the 2 when you only have Kips\' to compare to demos is imo unfair.

Also, you have to know Kip\'s Bosendorfer is close miked and Michiel\'s bose is much more ambient, Michiel\'s Bosendorfer will be much better suited in a solo classical piano setting where as Kip\'s close miked bose will be obviously the better choice for some ensemble Jazz which you use it primarely for.

I also have Kip\'s bosendorfer and it does sound very good, but saying it sounds better than Michiel Post\'s Grandioso, I think not.
Saying that for your needs Kip\'s piano does the job is fine, why do you have to come in here just to say \"Kip\'s Bose is the best, **** the rest ?\"
Both pianos have very distinct characters and that\'s what makes this industry beautiful, you get to choose between different libraries for what suits your needs, again I will say this I would never say one library is better than the other when I only own one of them.....


Kindly and with all due respect,
Franky
Vintaudio Prod.
www.vintaudio.com (\"http://www.vintaudio.com\")

[Michiel Post]

I don\'t have much to add to these comments; both Bosendorfers were recorded in different ways; they sound different, they serve different purposes, they offer different possibilities; they are different products.
And I like both very much.

Michiel Post

[PeterRoos]

Originally posted by Michiel Post:
</font><blockquote><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><hr /><font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Originally posted by Michiel Post:
I will investigate your complaint and report back (both here and personally).

Michiel Post <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">OK, I checked the regions in the editor and there were some bad assignments.

...

The direct link to the update is:
Bos290 update (\"http://www.postaudiomedia.com/updates/PMI%20STEINWAY%20D%20CLASSIC%20update%203.3.zip\")

Michiel Post [/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Michiel, please check this link, as it points to a file with clearly the name STEINWAY in it and you were referring to the Bosendorfer in your reply.

PMI%20STEINWAY%20D%20CLASSIC%20update%203.3.zip

Regards,

Peter

[Michiel Post]

oops, i really need that break...
The right link is:

update Bos290 (\"http://www.postaudiomedia.com/updates/PMI%20Bosendorfer%20290%20update%202.zip\")

You can find it on our update page (\"http://www.postaudiomedia.com/basishtml/updates.html\")

Michiel Post

[pantonality]

Hi All,

I\'ll check out the various bug fixes for the PMI Bos. Since we\'re discussing it I have problems with Grandioso. I\'ve recently updated both Grandioso and Maple to the current versions. When I play a piece I get a lot of low notes playing that don\'t exist when I don\'t use the Grandioso plugin. Are others getting this same behavior? Is there something I need to do to get the plugin to function properly?

Steve Chandler
http://www.mp3.com/stevechandler (\"http://www.mp3.com/stevechandler\")

[Alan Russell]

For the record, I do own Kip\'s Bose and I have also played the PMI BOSE but it all comes down to this:

If either Bose fullfills your production, this is the bottom line. It is 100% subjective and the owners like myself are very proud of the main axe that aids us to score.

I didn\'t mean to insult anybodys product and I hope that BOTH products find there place in the productions they belong to chosen by their composers or arrangers.

This concludes my thoughts for this interesting thread and participation.

Wishing all authors success in their product and let\'s contunue to make music for all to enjoy!

Alan Russell

[tonylombardi]

Mr. Post,
Thanks for the quick update. The problem in that region is fixed, making the instrument usable now. By the way, when I loaded the .art file an error popped up saying the wave pools don\'t quite match. I saved it anyway. Is this ok?

As I mentioned in another thread, I think sample developers should do non-musical tests on all their products. For example, to catch the problem that was just fixed, all you would have to do is play a chromatic scale from the lowest key to the highest, with the sustain pedal down, and on each pitch play a range of velocities from low to high. It\'s not that hard to make a MIDI file for this.
I think the only person to reply on the thread was Scarbee, who said he does such tests with his libraries.

I don\'t think I\'m being particularly picky. The problem that was fixed really was obvious to me. I think I discovered it the first day or second day after I got the library, if I remember right.

Anthony Lombardi
www.mp3.com/alombardi (\"http://www.mp3.com/alombardi\")

[tonylombardi]

Christian,
I was talking about the full edition, the WET patch with the word Sustain in it. Are you sure you loaded the right one? Maybe you loaded a different wet patch.

By the way, the intonation problems I mentioned are very slight. I think this piano wasn\'t sampled chromatically, and I may be hearing formant shifting or something like that.

[noenoeil]

Originally posted by tonylombardi:
Christian,
I was talking about the full edition, the WET patch with the word Sustain in it. Are you sure you loaded the right one? Maybe you loaded a different wet patch. <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">My mistake Tony, I checked the 8 and 16 layers patches (no sustain) I usually load.
Thanks for your useful input, now we got an update. images/icons/smile.gif

Christian

[JohnGrant]

Bruce Richardson writes:

\"The important thing to remember is that the very same sample can sound wrong in one setting and perfect in another.\"

If there is such a thing as an \"absolute truth,\" the preceding is one such truth.

J. Grant
http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/42/john_lewis_grant.html (\"http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/42/john_lewis_grant.html\")