I'm sampling a drumkit. Need advice please.

[unconscious sound]

Hi. I will soon be sampling a friend\'s drumkit. It is a custom kit made locally. Only the toms and kick drum were custom built. I need to record this right, and am wondering if anyone here has some expert advice on how to do this properly. Here is my gearlist for recording...

Rode NT4 stereo mic
Core-Sound.com MIC2496 portable stereo mic pre
Creative Nomad Jukebox 3

I don\'t have access to numerous drum mics, so I can only use the NT4. The Jukebox records 44.1/16 .wav. It has a digital input, which is sent from the s/pdif output on the MIC2496.

I will be doing everything in 16 velocity layers, with left and right hand hits. Flams, rolls, ghost notes, multiple sizzle levels on the hi-hat, etc, etc.

Any help is appreciated!

[Isabella Rowlins]

I dont know much about this. But I remember reading the Drumkits From Hell library and how they both made close and ambienced recordings of the same drums and then users can mix them at later stage.

I think you should consider recording both ambienced and close samples of each drum. Ofcourse you will need additional gear for this, but in the end it will end up being a far better sampled product.

Isabella Rowlins

[Scott Cairns]

If you are going to all the trouble to record the kit, chop up the samples etc, I would be springing for some extra mics.

SM57\'s are good for snares, the old Senheiser 621 are a good tom mic. There is a good AKG mic for kick drums too.. unfortunately it has been some years since I\'ve had to mic up a kit and I can\'t remember which one it is. A lot of it has blurred. images/icons/rolleyes.gif

Some engineers get a good snare sound by micing top and bottom but if you do, watch out for phase problems.

There\'s an article here on drum kit micing basics; http://www.acousticdrums.com/members/esp-aug01.html (\"http://www.acousticdrums.com/members/esp-aug01.html\")

[Jaimo]

The ambient, or room sounds are equally as important as the close mic\'d sounds.

You really should get ahold of a few more mics to do this properly. Even adding a shure SM57 to your set-up will help.

Try using the Rode stereo mic as the overheads, with the 57 as the close mic. That will work on the snare and the toms indivdually, but you\'ll need something else for the kick. An AKG D112 works for kick, but I myself prefer 2 mics on the kick. One inside, and one a few feet out front.

You\'ll have to experiment alot. Just remember, recording a drum kit well is not for the faint of heart. It takes alot of knowledge and patience to really get it right.

Then again, you might love what you hear after the first attempt.

Good luck and let us know how it goes...

[route909]

Originally posted by unconscious sound:
Hi. I will soon be sampling a friend\'s drumkit. It is a custom kit made locally. Only the toms and kick drum were custom built. I need to record this right, and am wondering if anyone here has some expert advice on how to do this properly. Here is my gearlist for recording...

Rode NT4 stereo mic
Core-Sound.com MIC2496 portable stereo mic pre
Creative Nomad Jukebox 3

I don\'t have access to numerous drum mics, so I can only use the NT4. The Jukebox records 44.1/16 .wav. It has a digital input, which is sent from the s/pdif output on the MIC2496.

I will be doing everything in 16 velocity layers, with left and right hand hits. Flams, rolls, ghost notes, multiple sizzle levels on the hi-hat, etc, etc.

Any help is appreciated! <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">I recorded my Maestro Cream drums kit with only two mics, but at 24 bits directly from the preamp to the audio card. The main problem with drum samples is that when you compress them, the low level grit comes up to the surface, and that´s not good at all. You need to record at 24 bits, do your mixing thingie, and dither the files properly.

Anyway, you will probably get a pretty good sound from the kit, just make sure you place the mic properly. Take your time. You will need to move the mic to record the kick drum, so make sure you´ve recorded everything else before you move the mic.

Take notes, write down everything you are going to record, so you don´t forget anything. Plan everything out before you start.

Make sure the drummer hits the exact same spot on the cymbals and drums, so there are no inconsistensies in the samples. And make sure you record everything at the same gain level.

Let the drums ring out down into the noise floor. This is important and is a great part of making the drums sound real. Don´t dampen the toms while playing the snare, and don´t put your hand on the snare when recording the toms. Also, make sure you get the entire initial attack of the hits. Like with a piano, where you want to hear the keys being pressed down before the hammer hits the strings, it´s a realism thing.

Record more samples than you need, so you can pick the best ones. Take notes on how loud each sample is and compare them with the finished samples. Don´t normalize, use the same gain level for each velocity layer. For instance, the pp samples might need 20 dB of gain, while the F level needs 3 dB final gain. Make sure every cymbal, tom and snare gets the same gain.

Name the files in a sequential order and make up a system. For instance, take the snare drum: mc[maestro cream drums]_sn[snare, or if you want to use a midi number, take 40]_r[regular]_13[the loudest first, this is probably a pp sample].wav. The final file name would be mc_sn_r_13.wav. It lets you keep track of the files. You will probably want rimshots (mc_sn_rs_10.wav), off-center hits (mc_sn_oc_05.wav) and so fourth.

Tune the drums and make sure they are in top condition. Get new heads if needed.

Get a good drummer to play the stuff for you. It´ll not only get a better tone, but also guarantee that the hits are \"compatible\" with the rest of your music.

Do a smaller test first with a relatively small number of samples, so you know the sampler you´re using before you make anything big.

I´ll type more when I think of anything. Take care and good luck!


Mats

[Bruce A. Richardson]

Originally posted by unconscious sound:
Hi. I will soon be sampling a friend\'s drumkit. It is a custom kit made locally. Only the toms and kick drum were custom built. I need to record this right, and am wondering if anyone here has some expert advice on how to do this properly. Here is my gearlist for recording...

Rode NT4 stereo mic
Core-Sound.com MIC2496 portable stereo mic pre
Creative Nomad Jukebox 3<font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Well, you can stop right there. \"I need to record this right\" and \"here is my gearlist\" do not match up.

Go to a local studio that gets a great drum sound, and spend an afternoon\'s blockout (probably only a couple hundred bucks) to record there. That way, you get an engineer that knows how to record drums, and a real gear list. That rig you\'re describing is like a concert-taper rig--it is not suitable for your application. Otherwise you are really wasting your time. I have an NT-4, and love it. But it is not a drum microphone--you could use it as an overhead in an overall array, but even then it would not be anywhere on the list of mics one would normally pick for the application.

I\'m not trying to be uppity about this. I\'m just saying if you\'re going to spend the time and mind-numbing repetitive motion of mapping a 16-layer drumset, spend just a little money on your session and get something you can actually work with when it\'s over.

[unconscious sound]

Hi everyone. Thanks for all the responses! I\'m basically stuc with what gear I have. I probably will not be making a library to sell, since it will not compete well with the quality of other drum libraries out there.

If I do get another mic, or mics, what mics should I get for each drum piece? I have heard that the Shure SM57 is a great mic.

If I use multiple mic positions, I\'ll have to use mono mics, and send the signals to my mic pre, since it only has one stereo mic input. From there, I could split the left and right channels of each recording into seperate mono tracks. (Left channel would be the close mic, right channel would be the overhead).

Does the Rode NT4 not handle drum transients well? I know it\'sa little bit on the dull side. The top end has -6dB. That doesn\'t concern me too much though. This project is mainly for my own use, so if the quality of the recordings is not up to snuff, I will not bother mapping everything out.

I will record all of the FFF samples as close to clipping as possible, especially since it is all going to 16 bit, with little room between clipping and the noise floor. The mic pre is pretty quiet, I think. You can take a look at it here. www.core-sound.com (\"http://www.core-sound.com\") They began shipping them out last week, so mine should arrive sometime this week. Let me know what you all think about this preamp.

Thanks again for all of the input!

[kid-surf]

You\'ve got to use really expensive ribbon mics on the snare and kick if you want it to sound right! images/icons/rolleyes.gif


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What? Can\'t you guys take a joke? graemlins/tounge_images/icons/smile.gif But seriously \"DO NOT!!!\" do that, unless you don\'t like the
mics (and want to break them)! I which case sell them to me (for cheap)! images/icons/wink.gif


My real advice is to ask any friends you have if you can borrow some drum mics. The \"mic\" you
have is a little bit like trying to record vocals with a kick mic (i.e. all mics are different, and some
mics are useless for a given application). Perhaps you could buy one of those \"drum mic packs\"
that they sell as a complete solution. I\'m guessing it\'s cheaper than piecing it out, as well it\'s
probably 10x better than what you\'ve got.


If worse comes to worse spend $79 on a SM-57... it\'s not the best solution but it\'s one mic that
\"could\" work on everything (for cheap!). That is a last resort though. Remember, you want to be
able to actually \"use\" the samples you worked so hard to record! images/icons/grin.gif

Good luck!

[unconscious sound]

Yeah, we\'ll see and hear how the test recordings come out. If my HR624\'s don\'t give me some nice lowend on the kick, I won\'t bother with it, unless some EQ tricks can do something for me. But doing that would not be nearly as good as getting the right mic for the job. I figured the NT4 wouldn\'t be one of the best solutions, but I\'ll know for sure once I try everything out. I\'ll keep you informed with my progress in the months ahead.

Later

[keytar]

If you want to capture an excellent recoding of your kit, mic everything, set the levels and leave it there and do not move any mics once you start recording. The noise that the \"other\" mics pick up well be the thing that keeps the drums sounding real and natural.

[Bruce A. Richardson]

Originally posted by unconscious sound:
Yeah, we\'ll see and hear how the test recordings come out. If my HR624\'s don\'t give me some nice lowend on the kick, I won\'t bother with it, unless some EQ tricks can do something for me. But doing that would not be nearly as good as getting the right mic for the job. I figured the NT4 wouldn\'t be one of the best solutions, but I\'ll know for sure once I try everything out. I\'ll keep you informed with my progress in the months ahead.

Later <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">You came for advice, but you sure don\'t seem to be listening to it. No biggie, but your chances of a quality drumset you can use for your effort are slim to none with the gear and techniques you\'re proposing. Studio time is SO cheap right now--I cannot imagine why you would be penny-wise and pound foolish when it comes to the session.

Good luck with it.

[midphase]

The NS drum kit was a similiar project. I felt that they relied too much on the ambience mikes and ended up with Kicks and Toms that lacked punch.

They also IMHO went a little too crazy with the velocity layers, there is a point where the only difference in sound is volume and not character.

Last but not least, a lot of the samples were very low in level and needed normalization badly (which added tons more noise) so make sure you have good levels.

I am not trying to crap about NS Kit, it is an excellent addition to the many great freebees online and I am grateful for it. But there are many lessons to be learned from them and other developers.

[unconscious sound]

Hi again. I appreciate everyone\'s advice, and even though it may SEEM like I am not listening to the advice here, I AM listening. I value this forum alot. There are many intelligent minds here, and the information given is all very useful.

What I needed advice for was mainly mic positioning, setting levels for different dynamics, and post editing of recorded samples. I know the NT4 is not meant as a drum mic, but it is all I have access to. I\'ve spent alot of cash in the last few months on other things to be able to afford any other expenses...regardless of how cheap studio time may be these days. It\'s simply not in my budget.

Perhaps I\'ll hold off on this project until I can afford studio time, or a better mic and preamp setup.

Thanks again!

[Nick Batzdorf]

If you can\'t go to a studio and do it \"properly,\" I\'d suggest that you at least get hold of a large-diaphragm condenser mic to supplement the Rode. Put the LDC about 4 feet in front of the kit at about snare level. Then use your stereo mic as an overhead. Hopefully your ceiling is high enough to let you catch some air up there without getting reflections off the ceiling.

Actually, you can get a pretty good drum sound that way if the room is up to it.

[Nick Batzdorf]

Another alternative would be one of those \"packs\" of mics for drums. Audix\' is supposed to be pretty good, but A-T, Shure, and others make them. You\'ll also need mic preamps for all those mics if you don\'t have a mixer, of course.

If I were in your situation, though, I might be more inclined to go for an LDC, since you can use it for all kinds of other things when you\'re done trying to sample drums. Shanghai LDCs start at under $100 these days, and you can go up from there.

[unconscious sound]

I was considering getting a Rode NTK or Rode Nt1000 before I got the NT4. I needed a stereo mic, and didn\'t have the cash for for two of the first mics listed.

Are the NTK/1000\'s considered large diaphram? Bruce, i read your review of them, and you liked them alot. Would either of those be suitable for drum applications? Or are there better options?

[unconscious sound]

I was considering getting a Rode NTK or Rode Nt1000 before I got the NT4. I needed a stereo mic, and didn\'t have the cash for for two of the first mics listed.

Are the NTK/1000\'s considered large diaphram? Bruce, i read your review of them, and you liked them alot. Would either of those be suitable for drum applications? Or are there better options?

[Nick Batzdorf]

They\'re both large-diaphragm. I haven\'t heard either of those, but I have a Rode Classic II, and it\'s great.

The point of the LD is that it generally gives you a round, larger than life sound. You\'d use it for pop vox, brass and horns, the low end of a piano in a pop setting...that kind of thing. They\'re also good for room mics, if you imagine a big, thick reverb. You could use a pair as drum overheads, but the reason I suggested using one from in front of the drums is that it should give you a big sound with a minimum number of mics.

Small-diaphragm mics tend to be flatter and, well, not quite big sounding, so they\'re good on things like winds, cellos, ac guits (some people like LDs on guit, but you have to be careful not to emphasize the boominess), high-hats, and all kinds of instruments.

There are character and flat examples of large- and small-diaphragm mics, and these are very crude and simplistic generalizations. Also, the traditional mic to use on drums and guitar amps is the SM-57, which is a small-diaphragm dynamic mic. You use it close up, and you mic every drum.

Unless you know something I don\'t, I wouldn\'t put the Rödes close to any drums or you\'ll blow them out.

[unconscious sound]

Hey, thanks for the reply. The NT4 can take 130dB of sound before distorting, so I think I should be able to handle the loud drum parts. The same goes for the NTK/1000\'s. They can take even more sound pressure.

Since I haven\'t recorded much of anything, aside from some nature sounds outside, (still waiting for the mic pre to arrive) I don\'t know why the NT4 would not suitable. Bruce, could you explain why the NT4 is not suitable? Is is something to do with transients? Thanks.

[SiliconAudioLabs]

Room mics
ROOM MICS
ROOM MICS!

Did I mention room mics? images/icons/confused.gif

[SiliconAudioLabs]

You aught to look into the Conneat Audio Devices (CAD) Equitek E-200\'s!

http://www.cadmics.com/e200_2.htm (\"http://www.cadmics.com/e200_2.htm\")

Reasonable price and 148 dB SPL before distortion!!! images/icons/shocked.gif

Get (or rent) at least 4 to 8 of these! So you have plenty for room mics.

Did I mention room mics? images/icons/grin.gif

\"All we wanna do is make some music, couple notes maybe\" images/icons/rolleyes.gif

[Nick Batzdorf]

Sil, you\'re recommending that he rent eight room mics to go along with his stereo mic so he can record a drum kit on the cheap?

I guess there\'s always another way, but that\'s just a little bit unorthodox!

Unconscious, I wouldn\'t normally suggest close-miking the kit in this situation even if those mics will take it. But if you only need to record one drum at a time, you could experiment with a close mic plus the overheads.

The overheads-plus-front-of-kit scheme isn\'t something I invented, by the way - it\'s a well proven set-up.

[unconscious sound]

I would like to do close and overheads of each performance, but like I said earlier, each position would be in mono. No biggie for me as far as that goes. I\'ll be recording every drum seperately, and centered. I\'ll take notes of everything people suggest, so I can use the best solution that fits my needs. Emphasis on the \"my needs\" part, since would not likely become a commercial product...probably a freebie, like the Natural Studio Kit.

I\'m going to do something that I have not seen in any other drum sample libraries. Things like flams, ghost notes, drags, rims, sidestick, rolls at different speeds, etc. Also alot of different things with the hi-hats, like multiple angles with the drumstick hitting the edge. Something like this could be toggled with the mod wheel. Also, hits on the hi-hat\'s bell, and other areas of the surface. Alot of things with the crash and rides too.

I want it to be more than some sounds you can group together. I want it to be playable, and have character, instead of sounding lifeless.
I know, I know...it will sound lifeless without the right mics.

[Z6]

You might want to look at the Studio Projects range. They\'re built in China (like a lot of \'German\' mics) but have gotten a lot of rave reviews.

The B1 might be exactly what you\'re after and it\'s only around $80. The C1 is a little more expensive and again has received a lot of acclaim.

Here\'s a link to their \'review\' page.

http://www.studioprojectsusa.com/reviews.html (\"http://www.studioprojectsusa.com/reviews.html\")

There\'s an interesting \'shootout\' article where the C1 was tested blind against Neumann, AKG and others: http://www.digitalprosound.com/2002/09_sep/features/mic_shootout.htm (\"http://www.digitalprosound.com/2002/09_sep/features/mic_shootout.htm\")


Worth a look.

[Nick Batzdorf]

That\'s what I meant by \"Shanghai mics.\"

[Z6]

Originally posted by Nick Batzdorf:
That\'s what I meant by \"Shanghai mics.\" <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">\"Shanghai mics\" makes it sound like they\'re low quality. Studio Projects is a brand (designed in the U.S. and built in China), not a \'type\', and they\'ve received a lot of reviews that compare them very favorably to mics costing $2,000+. The \'knock off\' industry has come into it\'s own.

You said \"you can go up from there\". I guess you meant price but the possibility exists that the whole \"mic\" industry has been overcharging horrendously for mics already built for pennies in China. At last reviewers are using their ears instead of paying hommage to names. And at last users can can get the very best quality for around 5-10% of the price of high-end \'names\'. I\'d urge anyone looking for a mic to try Studio Projects. I own one and it\'s fantastic; but I\'m very ignorant and have never even tried high-end stuff (don\'t listen to me, listen to the product and read the reviews). But a lot of reviewers are finally ridding themselves of prejudice. And you can buy a $700 Studio Projects mic if you like, but the B1 or C1 could be adapted to most needs I suspect. They also have a nice preamp on the market.

[Nick Batzdorf]

That wasn\'t what I intended to imply, any more than you intended to insult everyone from Shanghai by taking it that way!

There\'s a U87 lookalike mic that several companies import. Some improve the electronics and hand-pick components, others don\'t, some put their logo on it, and so on. In any case, there are several varieties on the market, and collectively they\'re known as Shanghai mics - a term I didn\'t invent - because...that\'s where they\'re born.

Some are quite good. I\'m actually reviewing some of these mics right now, so I\'d better shut up and leave it at that. But I wouldn\'t have recommended the Shanghai mics if they sucked. You may be right that the ST are only built in China, and if so I stand corrected.

And when I say you can go up from there ($80 or $100), you\'re right: I\'m talking about the price more than the quality. There are some more expensive mics that are wowzy, and there some that are a whole lot better. And they\'re priced accordingly.

[Nick Batzdorf]

And actually, the Studio Projects mics look like U47, so they\'re not Shanghai mics.

[Z6]

posted by mistake

[Z6]

Anyway, they\'re worth looking at. (I insulted everyone from Shanghai? Could we get a couple of million signatures here to confirm that? images/icons/wink.gif )

[Nick Batzdorf]

I hear the huffing all the way over here!

[unconscious sound]

Hmmm. A C1, you say? How does this mic fare with a kick drum? I\'ll bookmark it, and make a note of it. Thanks. images/icons/smile.gif