[OT] Mac Memory problem-any ideas?

[Hasen]

OS 9 can only see 999MB per application. Swith to OS X and live happily ever after. images/icons/smile.gif

[Joris de Man]

Hey Guys,

I\'ve got a memory problem under OS9 on my mac. It seems that the Finder (System) uses far more memory than it should. I recently added a few DIMM\'s and now have 1.75gb of memory.
The system when booted uses around 350-400 megs of ram which seems insane. I checked my old machine (a G4/400 with 1gb of memory) which uses around 80mb, the amount I would expect it to be.
The extension set on both machines is identical (bar a midi extension here and there)

My new machine is a Dual 1ghz mac with 1.75gb. Both machines run OS 9.2.2
I ran Protools D24 on both machines with a Creamware Scope/SP card (one of the reasons I haven\'t switched to OS X yet).
I don\'t use virtual memory.

Anyone got any ideas? Is the OS just taking more ram because there is more in the machine? I tried a clean 9.2.2 install but even then the OS still uses around 320 mb. A friend of mine with the same machine and 1gb of memory just needs around 80mb for his system.

Cheers,

Joris

[Joris de Man]

Thanks for a completely useless reply.
Ofcourse I\'m aware that problems like these don\'t exist under OS X; don\'t you think I would have switched if it were a possibillity? The fact remains that despite Apple\'s best efforts to force everybody to use X, many applications still don\'t work under it (my scope card and some often used TDM plugins being some of them), and until they do, switching is not an option.

Your 999mb remark doens\'t account for the fact that my OS seems to use around 5x as much memory as it should...

Cheers,

Joris

[SOD213]

Hasen is right with his answer. I *think* that OS9 has a physical limit of 1.5GB. Try pulling out a 256MB if you\'ve got one in there (I believe you do, it sounds like you have 3 512\'s and a 256), and see if the RAM issue goes away. After that, drop down to 1.25GB, and then 1.0GB.

Then live happily in OS9 for as long as necessary till all the programs you need are available in OSX. There *are* reasons people still buy the dual-boot machines. images/icons/smile.gif

[tomhartman]

Originally posted by Joris de Man:
Thanks for a completely useless reply.
Ofcourse I\'m aware that problems like these don\'t exist under OS X; don\'t you think I would have switched if it were a possibillity? The fact remains that despite Apple\'s best efforts to force everybody to use X, many applications still don\'t work under it (my scope card and some often used TDM plugins being some of them), and until they do, switching is not an option.

Your 999mb remark doens\'t account for the fact that my OS seems to use around 5x as much memory as it should...

Cheers,

Joris <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Joris, I\'m just curious, what TDM plugs do you use that are still not OSX? I had to wait too...but all the big ones are compatible now, from McDSP to Bombfactory to Sony,to Waves, etc.

[Hasen]

Originally posted by Joris de Man:
Thanks for a completely useless reply.
Ofcourse I\'m aware that problems like these don\'t exist under OS X; don\'t you think I would have switched if it were a possibillity? <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Nope. I used to be the same way as you, waiting for one last plug to be converted before I made the switch. Just forget that plug and switch already. Just use OS X for absolutely everything apart from stuff that needs that plug.

As for OS 9 taking up 400MB on the OS, well its just being silly. It tends to do that a lot. Sod123 could be right though, but I thought that revision of Mac could support 2GB.

[Nick Batzdorf]

Hasen is right with his answer. I *think* that OS9 has a physical limit of 1.5GB. <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Yes, and anything beyond that gets assigned to the Finder or the System orr whatever. OS X can recognize 2GB (for now - the G5s have room for 8GB, and the next OS X should actually recognize more than that).

Far more fundamental considerations than memory will determine whether you\'re happy switching to OS X, and from what I can see it depends on the programs you\'re using.

Some TDM plug-ins aren\'t going to make the transition to OS X. Lexiverb, for example. But pretty much all the important ones I use are on OS X now: Waves (of course), Wave Mechanics. TC Master-X, Access Virus, McDSP...

[Mike Auty]

Originally posted by Joris de Man:

Anyone got any ideas? Is the OS just taking more ram because there is more in the machine? I tried a clean 9.2.2 install but even then the OS still uses around 320 mb. A friend of mine with the same machine and 1gb of memory just needs around 80mb for his system.

Cheers,

Joris <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">check your memory control panel. It is probably that your disk cache is set to automatic, which allocates a percentage of your total RAM. take this down to like 8 megs or whatever and you will be good to go.

-mike

[Joris de Man]

Hey Guys,
Thanks for the replies. Sorry for the pissed of reply from me, Hasen, but being stuck with this problem and then having somebody go \'use OS X\'when it\'s not an option was just frustrating.

I do plan to move to OS X asap when everything works.
Tom,the scope card is an integral part of my system; I use it as an ASIO driver for Logic (the latency is incredibly low) and for routing stuff to and from Protools. I also use Protools in Logic for the Audiotracks and the combination of both cards is incredibly flexible. All my outboard stuff gets routed via protools to the scope which means you can run plugins realtime on them (both TDM and VST).
Next to that the modular 3 synth on it is fantastic!
Until this card runs under OSX I\'ll still have to stick to Os9...
But you\'re right about the TDM plugins, although Lexiverb is a definite favourite. I don\'t have a mixfarm (D|24 with 3 \'vintage\'farms) so something like reverb one is not an option..yet:)

It\'s a shame OS9 won\'t use more than 1.5gb..it does make sense then that the operating system takes the rest.
Cheers!!!

Joris

[Hasen]

Originally posted by Joris de Man:
Hey Guys,
Thanks for the replies. Sorry for the pissed of reply from me, Hasen, but being stuck with this problem and then having somebody go \'use OS X\'when it\'s not an option was just frustrating.
<font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">No problem. I guess the only reason I said it was because the same was said to me every time I had a problem with OS 9 in the past. For what its worth I do still use OS 9 but just for sequencing and only because certain plugs/VSTis only run in it.


Originally posted by Joris de Man:

It\'s a shame OS9 won\'t use more than 1.5gb..it does make sense then that the operating system takes the rest.
<font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">I think its only 999MB per app.

[SiliconAudioLabs]

Any body remember - Mac PRam - program ram fragmentation?

This happens even AFTER REBOOTING AND/OR new memory install!!!

Look at your \"About This Computer\" from the Apple pull down on the left - jot down the memory being used - the \"Largest Unused Block\" vs what \"Mac OS\" is using.

Reboot –

BEFORE the Mac can start-up hold down Option/Command/P/R keys simultaneously (that\'s the: option+command+the regular alpha/numeric \"P\" and \"R\" keys - 4 keys total).

The startup sound will sound - KEEP holding on these keys until that startup sound “pings” three times.

Next - after you hear the startup sound 3 times (3 pings) then let go of those keys and let the Mac boot - when the Mac is fully booted see what the memory usages are now.

Any better? images/icons/wink.gif

[Nick Batzdorf]

I wish I could paste the screen dump of my About This Macintosh. It says:

DAE - 97.7 MB
Internet Explorer (this program!) - 37.5 MB
Logic Platinum 6.1.1 - 1.23 GB
Mac OS - 134.6 MB

Largest unused block: 4.9 MB - i.e. it moves slowly! But there doesn\'t appear to be any 999 meg per app limit.

I have Logic loaded to the gills with VSL (about 30 EXS samplers). I could quit Explorer, get rid of some TDM plug-ins, and assign DAE less memory to push the max even higher.

It took me a long time to figure out why Giga maxes out with almost exactly the same list of programs, yet it can only use about 800 megs of the 1.5 GB I have installed.

That\'s because the EXS samples are 24-bit, while the Giga ones are 16!

Boing boing boing boing (that\'s my head on my palm).

[Nick Batzdorf]

Incidentally, zapping the PRAM is part of the standard Mac dance. Yet I can\'t think of a single time it solved whatever problem I was having in the 17 years I\'ve been working on these silly things!

I\'m not being argumentative, just musing.

[SiliconAudioLabs]

Incidently it\'s one of the reasons Apple, back @\'97, really bore down and focused on OSX and a Unix type kernel (one of the percs of working & living the Valley images/icons/wink.gif )

Anyway this fragmentation thing has long been an issue for our studio\'s Macs and I lost count how many times it DID fix a problem especially THIS kind of memory issue on our end.

Look at the memory then try it. See if it changes your OS usage and free memory indicators. Can\'t hurt.

It\'s become one of the studio\'s morning routines during coffee brewing. images/icons/smile.gif

[Nick Batzdorf]

No, there really are limits to how much the OS can address. In OS 9 it\'s 1.5GB, in OS X it\'s 2. OS X Panther will use 64-bit memory addressing, opening it way up.

The disk cache is an important setting if you\'re using Pro Tools (saves take forever if it\'s set too high), but it\'s not going to change the OS so it can address more memory.

[Hasen]

Originally posted by Nick Batzdorf:
I wish I could paste the screen dump of my About This Macintosh. It says:

DAE - 97.7 MB
Internet Explorer (this program!) - 37.5 MB
Logic Platinum 6.1.1 - 1.23 GB
Mac OS - 134.6 MB<font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">You use Internet Explorer? Major ouch! images/icons/frown.gif

[Zerostudios]

Joris,

I once had a problem on my Pismo Powerbook where the System would eat up all available RAM and the the machine would take forever to boot. Using Conflict Catcher, I traced the problem to the sharing/network system. The problem disappeared whem I shut off all Appletalk, Appleshare and sharing extensions. I don\'t know if you are having the same problem but this is worth a try. To this date I still don\'t know why those services would screw up my computer but they are off and the computer runs fine now.

Michael
www.zerostudios.com (\"http://www.zerostudios.com\")

[Joris de Man]

Again, thanks for the suggestions.
It seems the 1.5gb limit in os9 does exist. Zapping the pram seemed to clear out some memory issues (i got about 20 more megs), but the OS still takes around 320 megs in its \'clean\' state.
I could try disabling the network extensions but I need the filesharing and appletalk for my network, unfortunately. I use Dave to get files to and from pc\'s.
I hope Creamware gets its *** in gear and release an OS X version of scope..then hopefully my troubled days will be over:)

Cheers,

Joris

[Simon Ravn]

Joris, I am sure you are aware at the pace at which things progress at CW... so may I suggest you don\'t hold your breath.

[SiliconAudioLabs]

Got Sound Fonts in the System Folder? Quicktime Musical Instruments.

Check that.

[pinkcanary]

Any ram installed over 1.5 meg gets dumped into the system by OS9. You can\'t use that ram.
It\'s not true that there is a 1 gig limit on the max memory which can be assigned to an app. If the memory\'s available, you can use it. (Apart from anything over 1.5 gig, of course. )

Pink

[Nick Batzdorf]

Zapping the PRAM solves memory fragmenation?! You just have to restart if it gets really bad. (In OS 9, as SAL says.)


You use Internet Explorer? Major ouch!
<font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">It works better than Netscape in OS 9, or at least it did last time I checked and lost interest in Netscape. Eudora and IE.

[Hasen]

Originally posted by Nick Batzdorf:
Zapping the PRAM solves memory fragmenation?! You just have to restart if it gets really bad. (In OS 9, as SAL says.)

</font><blockquote><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><hr /><font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\"> You use Internet Explorer? Major ouch!
<font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">It works better than Netscape in OS 9, or at least it did last time I checked and lost interest in Netscape. Eudora and IE. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Mozilla is the best in OS 9 but browsing options are pretty limited compared with OS X. Why do you browse in OS 9 anyway? Personally I only do sequencing in OS 9 and even then its only when the certain plug I need to use is OS 9 only.

[SiliconAudioLabs]

Zapping the PRAM solves PRAM memory fragmentation.

Here\'s my EXACT QUOTE:\"...Any body remember - Mac PRam - program ram fragmentation?...\"

and when you have THIS PARTICULAR problem JUST RESTARTING WILL NOT FLUSH IT.

THIS is how he bought back 20 megs.

I\'ve seen cases of 40 to 60 or more megabytes being recaptured.

Ask yourself: Why bother having a PRAM ZAP procedure AT ALL if restarting resets it?!?

[Nick Batzdorf]

PRAM stands for Parameter RAM. That was why I misunderstood what you were saying! Okay, we don\'t have an argument.


Why do you browse in OS 9 anyway? <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Because I don\'t use OS X yet.

[SiliconAudioLabs]

images/icons/grin.gif No prob Nick. I didn\'t buy this at first either.

Here\'s a tool called \"OS PURGE\":

http://www.siliconaudiolabs.com/media/MacOSPurge.sit (\"http://www.siliconaudiolabs.com/media/MacOSPurge.sit\")

It\'s a very tiny stand-alone app.(8k) Just dbl clicking on it will open the Apple / \"About This Computer\" panel which will show you the usual memory panels - clicking it is also \"supposed\" to defrag that memory but I\'ve learned nothing \"really\" does this, even restarting, except Zapping Pram at restart, but it\'s a great tool to quickly stay on top of this and ON OCCASION I\'ve seen it \"flush down\" some memory just by running it.

We notice after certain hard crashes this system memory will continue to fragment a bit untill you do the Pram dance thing.

An Apple programer in the Cupertino Stevens Creek building showed me this and explained it was one BIG issue in moving into the Unix/OSX world.

[Nick Batzdorf]

I think Tech Tool Pro can do that too. Anyway, what a programmer does and what I do are probably two different things. My point is that I only try zapping the PRAM when the machine starts behaving strangely (or won\'t start up), and it\'s never been a PRAM problem that\'s caused that.

Well, maybe was the initial cause. But the damage has always gone beyond that, so zapping it has never solved the problem.

And learning how to troubleshoot OS X is going to be an adventure. One good thing is that the OS\' extensions, etc. are separate from the programs\' ones, so reinstalling a system shouldn\'t be as big a deal as it has been.