Serious Concern with VSL

[ACProds]

I have to prefece the following post with the fact that I am still just beginning to go through all the sounds of this large library. That being said I am very concerned with the programming on many of the sounds I have initially tried out and am wondering if there is something that I am missing about the library.

What I am hearing over and over again are layers that are not smoothly crossfaded/programmed. The end result being that a lot of the sounds are completely unplayable (notice I didn\'t say unprogrammable) As a keyboard player who relies on performing the sounds to get a more musical performance, I am finding that I can not musically perform any kind of part when there are 3 distinctly different sounds/levels between the layers. I should be able to play a string run with a smooth pianissimo to fortissimo change. This is not possible with a number of the patches I have tried.

It feels that this is a sign of a rush programming job or a job in progress. Or maybe its just a different approach to sample programming. If so, then it is one that does not work with my approach to music making.

Now I know the library is still only partially finished, but for the price I paid for this library in its current state I expect the sounds that are there to be flushed out a bit better.

Now for the good news... Many of the sounds are brilliantly captured.. the performance tools are very exciting ( the legato tool with the woodwinds gave me chills)... In other words.. I want to figure out a way that I can use this library

So.. what I am hoping is that others of you out there who have had much more time with this product than I have (3 days), have a solution to this troubling first impression.

I am also curious if there are any other people out there who have felt the same way...

-AC

[KingIdiot]

Crossfading or velocity switching?

I find that for runs (strings) I dont use the standard staccattos but work with a mix of those and the sfz/dynamic patches, or a mix with the repetition tool (and/or actual runs). There are so many options that I think one needs to just really learn which is the best one to choose for particular sounds.

For woods, I use the legato/grace notes, there\'s nothign better out there. Due to Giga 2.5\'s limitations there are some issues with velocity switching, but that should be taken care of in updates once 3.0 shows up, or maybe there\'ll be a work around in a later version of the performance tool. Damn limitations. For ensembles I have my own workaround for this, but solo\'s will need velocity switching.

I think that sounds like a bit much but it\'ll be true with any huge library, especially one with variations one note.

Maybe you could ty a different velocity curve, it may be that the one they ship with just isn\'t the right choice for you. Also Xfading chort bows can be an option, but I know Herb didn\'t want to lay down too many patches for the start because it could leadd to a bunch of confusion.

I also know that they are working on an art file space where they\'ll share variations on programs that will cater to specific playing styles.

[vaultcomplex]

I believe he is talking about velocity switching. I also noticed that the velocity switching between layers is jarring. This is something that should be fixed right away because a lot of people prefer to play their music in that way and not use modwheel crossfading. I know for a fact that this is not a gigastudio limitation because SI Strings does it beautifully.

[KingIdiot]

the gigastudio limitation I wan reffering to is the one to do with dimensions regarding the legato instruments. It cant do velocity switching because those use too many dimensions images/icons/smile.gif

As for the normal velocity switching, I think there\'ll be a fw art files on the site at some poitn with different velocity curves. Its sort of the same idea that each piano plays different due to settings. Again I think its jsut they didn\'t want to overwhelm you guys with too many different variations on patches and just gave everyone a \"starting point\"

[Simon Ravn]

Hmmm velocity switching will be near impossible to make smooth unless you use some 16+ layers. But I think they did a terrific job on VSL compared to so many other libraries. DDBE and VSL have my favourite velocity patches of all libraries.

[vaultcomplex]

Originally posted by Simon Ravn:
Hmmm velocity switching will be near impossible to make smooth unless you use some 16+ layers. But I think they did a terrific job on VSL compared to so many other libraries. DDBE and VSL have my favourite velocity patches of all libraries. <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">There are a few that are incredibly awesome, but there are also a few patches where the difference between, for example velocity 55 and 56, is rather big. The volume just ramps up suddently between those two and when playing, you will get undesirable results.

[Maarten Spruijt]

Originally posted by Simon Ravn:
Hmmm velocity switching will be near impossible to make smooth unless you use some 16+ layers. <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Well then you need velocity crossfading. So like modwheel x-fading, only not controlled by modwheel, but by velocity. Makes it way smoother. And can be done in all soft samplers.

Maarten

[KingIdiot]

not to mention adding filters in the Xfades helps too, especially for brass

[eliam]

Yes, I have been speaking about this limited gradual filtering which permits to attenuate the transitions jumps between velocities... People have disregarded most of my comments or just treated me like a whining moron (I have no problem with that! images/icons/smile.gif ), but having seen and heard my friend work with his e-mu sampler, it is absolutely clear that without proper implementation of filtering and envelope control in a sampler, the sound banks are more or less condemned to sound half as good as they could. This velocity transition is very long to program, for an example, it took my friend a whole week full time to tweak a bosendorfer library, but his polished 260 megs program sounds way, WAY better than the original 1.5 gigs program. I might post an example to show you what I mean if you are interested.

[vaultcomplex]

Yes, but the consumer should not have to worry or fix these problems. It\'s disappointing that VSL would be released when the instruments that are available are are not all programmed well.

[Bruce A. Richardson]

Pussies.

[Munsie]

Hence the need for demo versions and return policies. Sorry, but at this dollar amount at LEAST some kind of trial version perhaps!

[mattzen]

Pussies. <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">While not the most PC way to put it, I agree with Bruce.

I\'m a habitual lurker on this board but I really felt compelled to chime in here. VSL is truly groundbreaking. I don\'t feel that this library was rushed out. In fact, I feel that it\'s one of the most thoroughly programmed libraries ever created.

Piano is my native instrument . However, I do not use the velocity switched instruments (except on stacatto/marcato/piz). I attain much more realism using xfade patches and/or alternating between single dynamic patches.

I do agree with King that your controller\'s velocity curve can be adjusted to suit your playing style better. It\'s something I\'m always changing on my controller. I also agree with velocity xfading. I\'m a tweaker. I\'ve built/sampled/programmed many custom sample libraries over the years. I am always tweaking everything I use. I can\'t see how you can\'t be tweaking if this is something you do with any amount of seriousness. VSL is one of the first libraries I HAVEN\'T needed to tweak.

Everyone has a different way of working. It\'s impossible for a developer to create patches that are going to satisfy everyones working out of the box. The best they can do is to offer flexibility. VSL has provided tremendous flexibility with so many different variations on the same patch. Velocity switched, mod wheel switch, mod wheel xfades, single dynamics, key switched, relaese control, etc.

VSL is one of the best purchases I\'ve ever made. I look forward to continually buying their products as I feel like I\'m truly using the finest of sample libraries (not to dis any other of the wonderful libraries out there).

And no, I\'m not affiliated with VSL in any way. I\'m just a thrilled user. images/icons/grin.gif

[vaultcomplex]

Originally posted by mattzen:
</font><blockquote><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><hr /><font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\"> Pussies. <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Piano is my native instrument . However, I do not use the velocity switched instruments (except on stacatto/marcato/piz). </font><hr /></blockquote><font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Here-in lies the problem. You aren\'t using VSL in the way that ACProds wants to use it. The velocity levels are programmed well for a lot of patches, but then for no reason whatsoever, they are programmed poorly for a couple patches. There are definitely groundbreaking things about VSL, but I don\'t understand some of you guys\' incessant blind praising that any faults of the product can only be blamed on the user. That is ludicrous. The fact that some of patches have very bad velocity curves, and not other patches, shows rushed programming. The velocity curve on his keyboard has absolutely nothing to do with the problem if there is a huge difference in sound between velocity 54 and 55, for example. And even if he were to adjust the velocity curve on the keyboard, and fix the problem as you say it would, then the patches that all play fine now will be out of balance.

The fact that there are a few patches on VSL and that SI, Miroslav, AO, QL, SAM Horns all seem to be perfect, indicates a problem with VSL.

[KingIdiot]

who\'s blaming anything on the user?

Thats BS, and I dont want to be associated with that comment. I\'m merely suggesting options to help.

[vaultcomplex]

Originally posted by KingIdiot:
who\'s blaming anything on the user?

Thats BS, and I dont want to be associated with that comment. I\'m merely suggesting options to help. <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">I didn\'t mean you. You\'ve been helpful as you are very knowledgable about VSL. I was mainly referring to Simon\'s asinine \"pussies\" comment.

[Simon Ravn]

Vault... your glasses need adjustment.

[mattzen]

There\'s no need to get hostile Vault. images/icons/confused.gif

I\'ve had a great experience with VSL so far. I\'m not wrong for saying so or because some others find some less than desirable things. I\'m not saying anyone is at fault here nor did I blame the user. I\'m merely stating that tweaking usually goes with the territory as most libs are not perfect out of the box for everyone\'s working style.

I\'ve always had issues with the software I\'ve used. Buggy or features missing/not working the way I like. I\'ve been fortunate enough to get into beta programs where I have a bit more of a voice. If the developers disagree or don\'t understand or can\'t get around to, than we, as users, are out of luck. With software we are at the mercy of the developers as we can\'t code and re-compile the software.

Conversely, we are fortunate to have the ability to edit sample libs if we want to adjust something. It\'s really not an awful thing to get your hands dirty and do a bit of tweaking. A day with no writing work can be spent making adjustments to your sounds and templates so that your next day of writing will be more plesurable. That is all I\'m stating here.


To stay on topic:
Let me clarify what I do....I use velocity switched instruments on stacattos/marcatos/pizz. Also on the \"all\" keyswitched patches from the cube. On the longer note stuff that is velocity switched, I find that a combination of riding a volume fader and/or mod with filter and knowing where the switch is by feel, I can control the patches quite well for my purposes. This, of course, requires playing only with one hand, having the other on one or two faders and a bit of practice. The other way is to play the part and go back and record the volume and mod if you don\'t want to do it all at once.

If you don\'t want to tweak (which is ok): The folks at VSL have already accomodated a few requests with .art files. I would bring up your troubles with the switching on their website.

These are just my thought with which anyone is allowed to disagree, just as I\'m allowed to disagree and thoughtfully and respectfully state why. images/icons/smile.gif

[vaultcomplex]

Originally posted by Simon Ravn:
Vault... your glasses need adjustment. <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">You are correct. I don\'t know what the hell I was thinking there! I\'m sorry!! It was Bruce who said that.

[vaultcomplex]

Mattzen,

That is good to hear that they are doing something. I just think the fact that you pay $3,000 for something that\'s not really complete in many of the samples that are there (not to mention you have to download the manual, it didn\'t even come with one!), just leaves a sour taste. $3K is a lot of money, and I\'m willing to bet if they charged $1000 for it, many more people wouldn\'t think twice about buying it.

Anyway, I have a question about memory. How many gigastudios do you have? Do you have a template with the entire orchestra at your disposal? Just loading the Clarinet performance patch for example takes up 32% memory!! Yikes.

[KingIdiot]

The performance legato gigs are particularly memory hungry, you\'ve got to understand that there are 26 samples for each not, for EACH dynamic.

Thats way more than any other sample library ever.

When giga 3 rolls around things should be different......hopefully

[vaultcomplex]

Originally posted by Sharmy:
Hey VC,

I will answer some of Mattzen\'s stuff as he helped to set up 2 of my giggas. Are you running Win 2000 or XP? It sounds like it. I am running windows 98 and get twice as much milage out of my 2 PC\'s as opposed to my XP machine. I won\'t go into depth about this, as it has been covered here quite a few times. There is a long thread on this topic at VSL on their forum. <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">The thing is, when I switched to Windows XP, I noticed no difference in memory consumption. Maybe it\'s just me, but I seem to remember I was able to load everything I had loaded before with the memory percentage being around the same number.

[mattzen]

Just loading the Clarinet performance patch for example takes up 32% memory!! Yikes. <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Ok. This is not right. How much RAM do you have? Assuming you have at least 1 gig, the only reason I can think of is that you are loading the whole gig file without expanding it first and only loading the dynamic or variation you need.

One dynamic variation from the performance set should cost about 8-9% or RAM on a Windows 98 machine. 98 is definitely the way to go if you want to load lots of stuff. As Sharmy said, there has been LOTS of discussion regarding this issue on this and other forums. I haven\'t found it to be any more stable (or unstable) than XP.

I\'d recommend at least 2 98 machines for VSL, but 3-4 is a bit more comfortable.

Hope that helps!

[vaultcomplex]

Interesting. Well, I only know what my friend is telling me right now, as I don\'t own VSL yet. He\'s running XP, and so am I. Hmmm, I\'ll talk to him more about it next time I talk to him and ask him if he\'s loading the entire gig file or not.

[Simon Ravn]

I think I can load about 12-15 legato instruments on 1GB on Win98SE.

[noenoeil]

Now THAT is a good info, thanks a lot Simon.

Christian.