Giga studio FX

[Kenn159]

Hi All
Just wanted to give my 2 cents about the NFX effects that come with giga studio.
I think the effects are fine except the reverb. The reverb is the effect that most display\'s it weakness.
Although I think it\'s great that Nemesys has created these low latency and low CPU usage effects for giga studio , I feel the quality of the reverb is probably about equal to the cakewalk 2 effects that come with cakewalk. [a little grainy,not very full and smooth].I have a Darla 24 and SB live sound cards in my system and I feel the smoothest fullest best sounding reverbs that I have heard are ,the reverb in my SB live [I guess that 1000 mips chip can really create some complex algorythms] and also a plug in from Waves called True verb[but the trueverb is direct x and would not work in giga studio].

[JohnEB]

Hi Ken 159

I was interested to hear that you have a SB Live and a Darla24. How does the sound quality of the SB Live compare with the Darla24?

I am a keyboard player and use the sb Live with GigaStudio. Although I am very pleased with it I believe that the sound quality of the GSI cards can be much better. Is this the case and what really determines this better quality in terms of the technical spec?

JohnEB

[JohnEB]

Thanks for the interesting input.

Is this similar sound quality, apart from the hiss that you mention, with all types of music?

JohnEB[

[Kenn159]

Hi John
To answer your question .
The darla 24 can record in 24 bit and the SB can only record in 16 bit.
Comparing both cards at the same 16 bit 48 k sample rate . The darla is cleaner and has a much hotter output.
It seems to me that the sb live is about as quiet as my old last card that I had before the sb live called Turtle beach montery, it\'s a isa card ,I think it was manufactured somewhere around 1995,and at the time it was considered a fairly quiet card in its price range [around $250] I saw a artical in Keyboard where they did a signal to noise test on it and it was around 85 db. The sb seems to be around that same range of quietness , although the sb has alittle more highend frequency transparency.
One cool thing about the sb card is that it has nice sounding effects ,spdif[which the darla doesn\'t have]and the sb is what they call a stereo multiclient ,which means you can run two aplications through the sb card [like cakewalk and giga studio]and let them both share the same two outputs .Which is pretty convienant if you don\'t have a mixer .
If I were to run two aplications on the Darla card I would have to asign each aplication to a different set of outputs ,which is fine if you have a mixer to mix it down to stereo.

[R & S Hanlon]

BTW, If you go to Multimedia/audio/playback tab you can get some of the hiss to lessen with the Soundblaster.

I mute Line-in, microphone and others. Just experiment with the volume up loud (but no music playing)muting this and that and you\'ll hear the hiss diminish - not gone completely but certain less.

[donimon]

As far as the SB Live quality, I think you will notice a bit more hiss than using a pro audio card - which has virtually none. This isn\'t a real issue though, because it\'s only for monitoring and when you capture to WAV in Gigastudio and play it back on your good audio card or burn to CD, there\'s no hiss.

Hope that helps.

[JohnEB]

Hi Kenn

Thanks for your comments, which are very helpful, particularly your reference to stereo multiclient and mixer points. As a new comer to the sampling/GS business I sometimes find it difficult to understand the specifications and facilities of the hardware and software involved. Your reply was very comprehensible and educational.

Going back to the comparison of the sb Live with Darla24 I would like to clarify that I do not use recording at the moment. My main requirement is to use GigaStudio with GigaPiano and Peter Ewers superb Symphonic Organ samples as the sound source for my keyboard playing. All samples are in 16 bit 44,100 Hz. What I am trying to determine is whether I should upgrade from sb Live to Darla24 get better real time midi/audio sound whilst I am playing.

Many thanks

John

[Chadwick]

John

The Darla 24 doesn\'t \'do\' MIDI, so you would need a separate midi card if you want better MIDI. I have been told to avoid USB midi devices because they tend to be slower. Apparently Midi boxes which sit on the ISA bus are also a pain.

Even though you don\'t record, you\'ll notice that the Darla sounds \'louder\' - ie you don\'t have to turn your amp input/output up as high to get a good listening level. The result is a clearer sound. Also more \'headroom\' usually gives sounds more punch.

If you\'re only playing two instruments, I can\'t see you stressing the MIDI capabilities of the SBLive that much.

If you\'ve got money to splash, go get the Darla 24 and something like an eMagic UnitorII. Otherwise, in a non recording situation you may not see a great benefit when only playing the two sounds.

I thought I read somewhere that each Gigastudio port had a maximum polyphony of 64 voices. If that\'s right, with an SBLive single port you\'ll be sharing those 64 voices between the piano and organ. With stereo, sustain and crossfading, you can certainly reach 64 voices between two instruments quickly. But maybe I read wrongly. Must check.

[Chadwick]

John,

I may have given you a bum steer re midi port polyphony. Just found this post from Killerbobjr:

If you have a sequencer and GSt on one machine and have assigned an external MIDI In
port to a Nemesys MIDI Out port, GSt will automatically limit each port to 64 voices. Go to your Settings|Hardware/Routing screen in GSt and set all MIDI In ports to none.

I read that as saying that you only have a 64 voice limit if you\'re using a sequencer on the same machine and are routing the controller keyboard to a GSt midi out. If you aren\'t doing that, I suppose there\'s no problem with getting 160 out of a single midi port.
NB a midi \'channel\' contains all the communication info for (generally) a single instrument\'.
A midi \'port\' is a socket containing 16 separately addressable channels.

[LHong]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by donimon:
As far as the SB Live quality, I think you will notice a bit more hiss than using a pro audio card - which has virtually none. This isn\'t a real issue though, because it\'s only for monitoring and when you capture to WAV in Gigastudio and play it back on your good audio card or burn to CD, there\'s no hiss.
Hope that helps.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I agree, whatever \"HISS\" or \"ARTIFACT\" is possible on the different soundcards, it might determines whether 16, 18, 20 or 24 audio bit-rates...I\'d just like to put a reference, maybe you could have an experiment your own ways.
I don\'t want to disappoint anyone who are in love with SB-LIVE, but I can say that it really is only a best quality in the \"pricing and feature\" for Home-Recording-Studio...
Peace,
an Opinion,
LHong

[JEB]

Hi Chadwick

I either use my sb Live Platinum (PCI) break out box or my Roland sc 8050 (USB connected) for midi ins together with a 5m Philip Rees midi merge unit. Seems to work OK for my purposes at the moment but I have taken note about what you have said about midi via USB or ISA.

Your second para. gives me a good feeling about improved sound quality, thanks.

I would like to clarify my situation regarding instruments. I play the piano and organ separately. However the organ has 2 manuals (keyboards) and a 32 note pedal board. Each can use a different midi channel and I can layer up to 4 instruments per keyboard (midi channel) i.e 12 instruments in total.

I am using Cakewalk Home Studio 9 to write and playback score using the Roland and GSt and will look at my configuration this evening as I have never got more than 64 voices on GSt on playback!

Many thanks

John

[Kenn159]

Responding to L Hong

The sb has it\'s own dsp like the mixtreme or pulsar.
As far as the waves plugin that I mentioned y0ur right it runs of the CPU and uses alot of CPU power .
Although Waves has another reverb[can\'t remember the name ] but it has the same sound quality as the True verb,but has less control over the parameters and uses less of the CPU power of there flagship trueverb.

[LHong]

Ken, your are right, SB-LIVE provides very pretty cool reverb (I love it). It would be nice that Nemesy can intergrates its reverbs into the Giga\'s DSP-Aux-BUS, so we can parametterize the amount of effect for each MIDI channels (WET/DRY).
Well, the way the mixtreme/pulsar works different way, forget about the quality, it would takes either wave/asio/fx/GSIF/ext-analog/ADAT/PDIF/TDIF or whatever of your output channel up to 32 to has the control over its parameter for each output channels independly without taxing the CPU, it is the real multi-client in multi-channel effect-processors. This is a very nice feature, I\'m sure you would love it. Of course you can combine between GFX and real-DSP effects as your choices.
Let say you have 16 output channels from GigaStudio + 12 wave/asio + 2 analog + SPDIF the same way and same time to mix with effect processing in the Gigastudio, you can do it right on the Mixtreme/pulsar mixer on fly (no need MIDI2WAVE at all).
I\'m not sure it is correct way to explain it, might be just sharing my opinions.
Peace,
LHong

[Kenn159]

Hi John
The Darla 24 does sound cleaner ,with a hotter output than the sb live.
The Darla will improve the sound quality regardless wether you are recording audio or like in your case playing back 16 bit samples .
And as 24 bit 96k sample library\'s become avalible you\'ll have a card that play back the improved sound quality of that format.

[LHong]

=====================================
Just wanted to give my 2 cents about the NFX effects that come with giga studio.
I think the effects are fine except the reverb. The reverb is the effect that most display\'s it weakness.
=====================================
Hi Ken, I agree with you that. I\'d like to add other 2 cents to it is if you can afford, try to use a DSP-Hardware like Mixtreme or pulsar maybe an external effect-processing via the digital output (ADAT/TDIF/SPDIF). Don\'t forget the good FX-REVERB would use a huge of Memory and CPU power of course Nemesy\'s known it as well.
Regards,
LHong

[elle]

Lhong,

Do you use the Mixtreme? What\'s you opininon on using it with gigastudio. What effects are using compared to GSFX?

[elle]

Thx Lhong,

however...could translate the essence that tech talk into practical \'(PC)musician\' language?

thx
elle

[Deep White]

Hi there,

I\'m using Mixtreme for GSt. I got both WM Reverb and TC Reverb. They both sounds much better than NFX Reverb. Also the EQ and Chorus in Mixtreme are better than their NFX counterparts. The Mixtreme doesn\'t have a delay (the usual delay, not track delay used as offset), so I\'ll have to use the NFX delay or an outboard gear.

One thing I like about Mixtreme is that it\'s very flexible. Also, if you like to have a general reverb for everything in the GSt but want to assign different reverb levels for each track, that\'s what I do:

1. In the Mixtreme mixer, assign the reverb under track 15/16
2. In the GSt\'s DSP Station, assign Aux 1 to Mixtreme\'s output 15/16

Now you can use the aus sends in the Input window in DSP Station to assign different reverb levels for different channels. I also use this method with the chorus effect. Then I\'ll use the NFX reverb as track inserts for instruments that need their own type of reverb.

Deep White

[LHong]

Thanks for your interesting, Sorry I\'m using the clasic PulsarI (not Mixtreme), so I couldn\'t answer your question.
The ideas are just try to tell you the other ways that how to handle the effect processing in many ways as your choices. Unlike the DSP on Yamaha or Ardkark, the mixtremes and pulsars are designed in opened architecture, it\'s the right tools for the expert user like Giga\'s users, you can customize it many ways as you wish. I\'ve seen many users has 3~4 soundcards and even two computers, I could understand why? the simple answer is they\'ve gone up to the limitation of PC-CPU and soundcards...

About Mixtreme, I have some information in mixing the DSP as effect-processing, whether you are mixtreme\'s owner or you want to know it, you would find the needs. Don\'t forget any tools\'s still having other limitation, the Reverb is still bottle-neck for DSP\'s power too and solution for it is expandable in multiple cards (pricing issue). See as follows:

QUESTIONS:
==========================================
\"Chris,
WOW!!! I\'m impress.
I have some questions about the Mixtreme, which I couldn\'t find in the spec.
1> Someone reports it might be a problem with the Athlon CPU since the mixtreme uses Motorola DSP. I\'m using Athlon+VIA Kx133 chipset, do you think it works?
2> how many stereo MME or ASIO can be play/rec simultaneous? 32 is max?
3> With GSIF, how many I/O can be used? 32 is max?
4> How many I/O, BUS channels for the mixer?
5> If I have two Extreme cards, what do I get? double of I/O or double of DSP power or both? max no. of Mixtreme cards?
6> In the mixdown, based-on 16~32 WAVE or ASIO, how many effects can be used within the project? how many reverbs, choruses can be used for example? max DSP power for each effects?
7> can I use the Mixtreme just like a DSP-effect processor expansion for the other PCI cards like PCI-822 or PCI-Pulsar. How about PCI latency between them?
Thanks in advances
LHong\"
===========================================
ANSWERS:
\"1. We\'ve tested Mixtreme with Athlon PCs that use the VIA KX133 chipset and it works fine. The problem is only between the AMD751 chipset (used on the first Athlon motherboards) and the Motorola DSP. Apparently Motorola and AMD are looking into the problem, but I wouldn\'t hold your breath for a solution.
2. Each Mixtreme has 16 I/O devices (8 x Stereo) and we\'ve tested up to 7 cards installed (using a PCI expansion unit) on the same PC. Two cards give 16 stereo I/O streams and double the DSP power of one etc.
With most applications (eg. VST, Logic or Cakewalk), you can route/premix several audio tracks to the same I/O channel, so it doesn\'t directly corelate to the amount of tracks.

3. The mixer has 16 I/O, 16 in/out devices (to PC applications) and 16 busses, per Mixtreme.

4. Currently with GSIF, 16 I/O channels is the maximum, we\'re working towards an update for Gigastudio to increase this.

5. Here\'s a list of typical DSP percentages for mixers and effects. You can use Mixtreme like a rack of effects if you wish, processing the signals from outboard or other PCI cards in real-time. In/Out performance is similar in latency to digital mixing consoles or external effects processors. This means for example, that you can process vocals with dynamics, EQ etc. before recording and monitor via a reverb.

PCI or driver latency is determined by the application that is using the devices, but can be as low as 1.5mS if the application supports it. On board mixing & I/O latency is \'near zero\' (a small number of samples).


Mixtreme Performance
---------------------------------
(P = DSP Processing Cycles, M = DSP Memory)
Note : this does not require PC CPU activity (all updating is at background level).

Tested at 44.1kHz with Logic Audio 3.6 runnning 24 tracks mixed to the 16 track inserts in the Mixtreme mixer using the MME drivers.
Also tested VST24 V3.6 and ASIO 24 bit drivers Latency set to 28mS - 24 tracks again).
PC was PII 233MHz 64MB Ram, IDE HD (bus mastering drivers)

16 channels audio streaming P = 10%-12%, M = 0% (not required when just using the mixing capabilities)
2 Band Parametric EQ (mono) P = 1.9%, M = 1.2%
2 Band Parametric EQ (Stereo) P = 3.7%, M = 2.2%
Mono Dynamics (from Audio Toolbox) P = 2.3%, M = 1.1% (Gate/Compression/Expander/Limiter)
Stereo Dynamics (from Audio Toolbox) P = 2.8%, M = 1.4% (Gate/Compression/Expander/Limiter)

TC Dynamizer (from Finalyzer) P = 40.4%, M = 22.6%
(3 band compressor/expander/limiter/soft clipping/look ahead peak detection/DC Removal filter)
TC Reverb (from M5000) P = 29.1%, M = 42.0%
Aphex Aural Exciter Type III (Stereo) P = 29.1%, M = 11.2%
Aphex Big Bottom Pro (Stereo) P = 20.6%, M = 8.2%

Stereo Chorus/Flanger (from Audio Toolbox) P = 7.6%, M = 3.7%
2 Tap Mono Delay (Short) (from ATB) P = 2.2%, M = 9.7%
2 Tap Mono Delay (Medium) (from ATB) P = 2.2%, M = 19.5%
2 Tap Mono Delay (Long) (from ATB) P = 4.6%, M = 39.0%

2 Tap Stereo Delay (Shortl) (from ATB) P = 4.6%, M = 19.5%
2 Tap Stereo Delay (Medium) (from ATB) P = 4.6%, M = 39.0%
2 Tap Stereo Delay (Long) (from ATB) P = 4.6%, M = 78.0%

Wave Mechanics Reverb (ex Eventide) P = 42.7%, M = 56.4%

32 Channel Mixer with 2 Band Parametric EQ per channel, 16 external inputs mixed with 16 channels from Logic/VST
P = 89.1%, M = 71.6%

Mono in Mono Out Channel Strip P = 0.7%, M = 1.4% (with /fader/input mute/output mute/solo)
16 x Mono in Mono Out Channel Strip P = 11.9%, M = 23.3% (with /fader/input mute/output mute/solo)
16 Channel (mono) Mixer with 2 Band EQ per Channel P = 43.4%, M = 42.6%
16 Channel (mono) Mixer with Dynamics per Channel P = 48.6%, M = 40.9%
16 Channel (mono) Mixer with 2 Band EQ & Dynamics per Channel P = 80.1%, M = 60.2%

Mono in Stereo Out Channel Strip P = 1.2%, M = 1.1% (with pan/fader/input mute/output mute/solo)
16 x Mono in Stereo Out Channel Strips P = 16.0%, M = 15.6% (with pan/fader/input mute/output mute/solo)
16 Channel (mono in stereo out) Mixer with 2 Band EQ per Channel P = 47.5%, M = 34.6%
16 Channel (mono in stereo out) Mixer with Dynamics per Channel P = 52.6%, M = 32.9%
16 Channel (mono in stereo out) Mixer with 2 Band EQ & Dynamics per Channel P = 84.2%, M = 52.3%
16 Channel (mono in stereo out) Mixer with Track Insert, 2B EQ & Dynamics per Channel P = 91.3%, M = 64.8%

Stereo Channel Strip P = 1.4%, M = 1.4% (with pan/fader/input mute/output mute/solo)
16 Channel (8 x Stereo) Strips P = 11.0%, M = 11.3% (with pan/fader/input mute/output mute/solo)
16 Channel (8 x Stereo) Mixer with 2 Band EQ per Channel P= 40.8%, M = 28.7%
16 Channel (8 x Stereo) Mixer with Dynamics per Channel P= 33.1%, M = 22.1%
16 Channel (8 x Stereo) Mixer with 2 Band EQ and Dynamics per channel P = 62.9%, M = 39.5%
16 Channel (8 x Stereo) Mixer with Track Insert, 2 Band EQ & Dynamics per channel P = 69.0%, M = 52.3%
16 Channel (8 x Stereo) Mixer with 2 Band EQ & Send per channel, TC Reverb & Master Fader P = 76.9%, M = 58.3%
16 Channel (8 x Stereo) Mixer with Track Insert 2 B EQ & Send per channel, TC Reverb & Master Fader
P = 83.0%, M = 61.2%

MS Decoder Mix P = 10.1%, M = 12.8%
MS Encoder Mix P = 10.2%, M = 14.3%

Mono in, LCRSS Out (5.1) Strip P = 1.3%, M = 1.2% (with /fader/input mute/output mute/solo)
16 x Mono in, LCRSS Out (5.1) Strips P = 20.1%, M = 18.7% (with /fader/input mute/output mute/solo)


Best regards,
Chris Wright
Soundscape Digital Technology\"

============================================

Thanks Chris Wright @ Soundscape
Regards,
LHong

[Chadwick]

I\'d just like to say thanks to L Hong and Chris Wright for the incredibly pertinent information. Makes you feel good about Soundscape Tech support.

After hearing that NFX is not God\'s answer to FX for final mixes, I\'m looking at Mixtreme or Pulsar II as a way to get close to a final mix without completely relying on outboard gear. Having the percentages for the Mixtreme board is great - gives you a fair idea as to what processes you can combine before maxing out the card\'s DSP.

I wish this info was available for the Pulsar as well.



[This message has been edited by Chadwick (edited 08-04-2000).]

[LHong]

=========================================
I wish this info was available for the Pulsar as well.
=========================================
Sure, the Pulsar has more complexity features than the Mixtreme because of it\'s designed in four SHARC-DSPS for PULSARI and six DSPS in pulsarII. It has own sampler-devives which is can takes AKAI-S1000 about 64 voices. Most of interesting parts I see are incredible models of analog and digital synths like Yamaha DX7, Seq-circuit Prophet5, roland-Juno6, huge of Modular DSP you can customize anyways you want...(sound quality likes real, very nice graphic-user-interface). The mixer, I can say it looks better the real Tascam TM-D1000/4000, it is 32x16x8x4x2 channels, 6 insert and 6 send/return 32B-Effect procesing (all kind of effects). It is also supported GSIF multi-client up to 32 output channels. You can expand up to three pulsar/Scope family boards to share same IRQ.
Here is the performance based-on the Pulsar I:
1> Synths: http://www.planetz.com/Pulsar/PerformanceSynth.html (\"http://www.planetz.com/Pulsar/PerformanceSynth.html\")
2> Mixer I/Os: http://www.planetz.com/Pulsar/PerformanceMixerIO.html (\"http://www.planetz.com/Pulsar/PerformanceMixerIO.html\")
3> Effect-processing: http://www.planetz.com/Pulsar/PerformanceEffects.html (\"http://www.planetz.com/Pulsar/PerformanceEffects.html\")
4> Modulars: http://www.planetz.com/Pulsar/PerformanceModular.html (\"http://www.planetz.com/Pulsar/PerformanceModular.html\")
5> Pulsar user\'s Music: http://www.planetz.com/Pulsar/Music.html (\"http://www.planetz.com/Pulsar/Music.html\")
Hope this helps,
LHong

[LTruong]

I prefer my GigaStudio NFX1 Hall and plate algorithm to my LX MPX-1 and by far to any software plug-in like Trueverb, hyperprism, etc. NFX1 Hall far superior transient on sharp attack, very smooth decay and very large space in mix. Any other opinion believe marketing hype not own ears. Maybe special interest here from bigger company?

Try acoustic snare or toms like Ross Garfield or VR drum on included soundware 2 through NFX 1 Hall algorithm. Or try cascade of two NFX1 in series, one for left and one for right, use dry button to pass channel to next series stage - very BIG and acoustic and nice decay all the way to black. Steady state noise much more quiet than any FX unit hardware or software.

I would like to see NFX1 Plate and Hall algorithm ported to pulsar or mixtreme, although I can get 20 NFX 1 reverbs running concurrently on my Athlon - try that on a Lexi rack or pulsar!

Good job Nemesys - looking forward to dynamics, amp simulation, distorton, Full Parametric EQ, and many more NFX!!

[elle]

These opinions differ so much, one must be wrong.I think.
So, please...more food for thought.
thx
elle

[Deep White]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LTruong:
Any other opinion believe marketing hype not own ears. Maybe special interest here from bigger company?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

1. Well, I believe MY OWN EARS, which are definitely different from yours.

2. \"Special interest here from bigger company?\" I\'m d--ned! cause from now on, if I prefer products from bigger companies, I\'ll not be able to express my opinions here without being biased!

Deep White

[This message has been edited by Deep White (edited 08-05-2000).]

[elle]

OK, this calls for a gentlemen\'s duel. Remember the seventeenth century.
Courtesy above all.
Let the final FX debate begin:
- one PC running it all : feasible yet? costs?
- FX external through standalone boxes or PCI card DSP, VST FX or GSFX?

Gentlemen, choose your weapons?

[Kenn159]

Responding to L Truong
I guess taste is in the eye of the beholder.
I disagee with you about as much as I did with another person on this thread that said they liked Jingee strings better than Advanced Orchestra.[Even though some of the Jingee samples were lifted from AO].

Anyway I have just one question for you L Truong,and I mean this in nicest possible way with all do respect.
ARE YOU NUTS!

[Deep White]

\"One PC Running It All\" is my dream, but I still don\'t know how far away I am.

I got TC\'s Dynamizer, the Mixtreme DSP FX derived from TC\'s Finalizer. I don\'t know it is me or \"it\", but I can\'t get the same result from my friend\'s hardware Finalizer. I heard similar opinions from other people who have software effects too, and as a result everyone thinks that those companies that make both hardware and software effects are holding something back when making plug-ins. Well, I\'m not sure. It\'s just a frustration guess.

About effects, if I\'m not in a situation that I have to use everything I have, I\'ll prefer software effects, for I can save each setting for each project. Of course I can save the effect settings of a hardware unit as system exclusive data, but then I don\'t have the ability to control it in real time. With dsp efx on Mixtreme, everything - reverb time, high frequency gut, eq gain and q, everything - can be automated in realtime.

DX plug-ins: the dx compressors, in my experience, all change the tone of the vocal in a way they are not supposed to. But I\'ll just have to use them until I buy a good hardware compressor.

VST plug-ins: I don\'t have VST so I don\'t know. But according to the reply from a big manufacture, they value the result of software plug-ins in this way: TDM > Soundscape > VST > DX

GS NFX: They are much more memory-saving comparing to their dx counterparts. I don\'t use them as general effects (for a drumset or an orchestra). Actually I avoid using them since GSt tends to crash or get pops and clips with NFX activated. Yet I\'ll use them sometime, for track inserts, when I run out of Mixtreme\'s dsp power. I must say, though not 100% satisfied, that the GS NFXs are something I can use with not that much compromise.

Deep White

[elle]

Thx DDoubleU,

First time I heard a helicopter overview on this subject. I think I will opt for Mixtreme.