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Topic: Finale Garritan Aria faders reset on play

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  1. #1

    Question Finale Garritan Aria faders reset on play

    I'm using Finale 2012, on a Mac, OS10.8.3, Garittan libraries: GPO4, Classic Organs, & World Instruments plus the usual Garritan Instruments for Finale.

    I've got a ticket running with Garritan support on this issue, but thought I'd also ask my question here.

    No matter how I set the faders in the Finale Aria player (not the stand-alone, but the one accessed from within Finale) they reset to seemingly arbitrary fader levels when I hit play. The first response from Finale's Garritan support explained that it's resetting to the levels in the mix description for each track in the score manager and that any values to be changed permanently need to be input there, not not on the Aria player.

    That explained what the faders are resetting to, but as far as a workable solution (making changes in the score manager) that's just not flexible enough to use when making music since it takes quite a bit of on-the-fly tinkering before getting a basic suitable balance, especially on large orchestral scores.

    Is there no way to disassociate Finale's Aira player from the score manager so the faders will stay were I set them and not reset upon play every time?

    Or, is there a way to use the Aria player's fader to send information to the score manager?!

    I've also noticed a similar problem in the Classic Organ collection regarding various effects: upon play things revert to some arbitrary state.

    Plus...I swear that there's been a number of scores when this problem with the faders resetting did not exist for me. But, when I went back to those pieces to I didn't have this problem with them, they too now reset, but to where the score had them when I finished with it!

    Lastly--sorry for the wall of text--is there such a thing as a 3rd party mix console that can be used with Finale's Garritan? Multiple mix busses, fader grouping, and automated mixdowns are pretty standard fare on software sequencers any more. Just wondered if there were some 3rd party console that could be used with Finale.

    Thanks...any help appreciated. BTW, I'm a HUGE fan of Finale (which I've used for an eternity) AND Garritan, so I'm generally not critical of either in any way. But, this recent issue is driving me nuts.

  2. #2

    Re: Finale Garritan Aria faders reset on play

    Unfortunately I don't have Finale 10 so I can't provide you with an exact answer but this is the behavior I experience using Aria in my DAW software. Although the volume and pan controls in aria are adjustable for auditioning patches at different settings, these are by design subservient to the host mixer settings as soon as the host software sends the signals after the play button is pressed.

    I found an archieved discussion from last year that may help you. Since I'm not a Finale user I can't really follow it myself.

    http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/...p/t-75395.html

  3. #3

    Re: Finale Garritan Aria faders reset on play

    It might be an issue with how they are set in the 'Instrument Manager' (if I recall correctly, that is what it is called). You can set the volume figures in there and they should 'stick'. Not sure what you need to achieve exactly. If it's volume levels throughout, then the expressions will do this, and resetting at the start isn't clear to me. If you back to the start, they are naturally going to reset to what the beginning setting was. If they are not, if you are adjusting the volumes, then hitting play, then you find you need to adjust them again, you should set up the following:

    A volume expression (or expressions for whatever fader you need) using the expression editor, assign cc7 (the volume control in MIDI) and set the value. You then add the expression to the first bar of your score. This will tell it what to start the initial values at when you being playback each time. If you need different volume levels for different instruments you can create as many volume expressions as you need.

    You're limited however by clumsy MIDI implementation in the notation program, as apposed to a DAW with is much more versatile. Naturally of course, notation is great for composing though.
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  4. #4
    Senior Member tedvanya's Avatar
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    Re: Finale Garritan Aria faders reset on play

    I had similar problem with Sonar X1 and Aria faders, until I remembered one of Randy's advise to set volumes before you start. If I do set the volume for each track in Sonar creating a one line envelope, Aria faders will copy the setting. It is easy then to do initial balancing the volumes adjusting this one line envelope and Aria follows. In Sonar X1 I can then do recording CC11 on each track as necessary for my mixing
    If I do not do this, enter some data, set volume in both Sonar and Aria, but no envelope set, hit playback, Aria volume jumps to a default volume, driving me crazy.
    I do not have Finale, so please forgive me if I am butting in.

    Ted

  5. #5

    Re: Finale Garritan Aria faders reset on play

    As was said on this thread, with both notation and DAW software, there's the issue of the Host program calling the shots on the relative volumes of instruments.

    What we want is a good basic balance between instruments, according to the needs of our piece of music, and our own tastes. Then the dynamic markings in notation and the MIDI volume data in a sequencer control the performances of the instruments within the parameters of those starting-point, basic balances between instruments.

    Those are two different things - the mix balance, and the performance control.

    I'm not a Finale user, hikejo, I use Sonar. So my reply is perhaps a sub-topic relating specifically to DAW software, but as I said in my opening, the Host program - the music program we're using where we open up instances of ARIA - that's the source of audio mixer control.

    As Daniel said:

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel Bendshadler View Post
    ...Although the volume and pan controls in aria are adjustable for auditioning patches at different settings, these are by design subservient to the host mixer settings as soon as the host software sends the signals after the play button is pressed...
    And Ted's post makes me want to point out a confusion that often comes up on the Forum about the volume controls we deal with:

    Quote Originally Posted by tedvanya View Post
    ...If I set the volume for each track in Sonar creating a one line envelope, Aria faders will copy the setting. It is easy then to do initial balancing the volumes adjusting this one line envelope and Aria follows. In Sonar X1 I can then do recording CC11 on each track as necessary for my mixing. If I do not do this, enter some data, set volume in both Sonar and Aria, but no envelope set, hit playback, Aria volume jumps to a default volume, driving me crazy...
    Ted - I hope you and others will follow me here in case there are still some possible misunderstandings:

    SPEAKING ONLY OF MIDI PRODUCTION--

    --Both ARIA's faders and the MIDI track faders in both notation programs and DAW software programs are controlled by CC7. The intended use of CC7 is to establish the relative potential volume levels of the various instruments/sounds used in a project. CC7 is primarily intended to be a static control. Levels are set for a project, and then usually remain the same throughout a project.

    --The host program's volume faders in its mixer are in control of the volume faders in ARIA's mixer by default. You move a MIDI track's slider in Sonar, you'll see the corresponding slider move in ARIA.

    --You don't need to use a volume envelope to control those initial volumes. Just set the Sonar sliders where you want them, and there the levels will stay. If for some reason you need those balances to change during a project, then automation via an envelope can be used. If you mistakenly set your levels in ARIA, all those sliders will jump to positions dictated by Sonar's MIDI faders as soon as you hit Play. This behavior is simply because the MIDI sliders in both Sonar and ARIA are controlled by the same MIDI Continuous Controller - #7, and the Host program takes precedence.

    --The dynamic volume control of an instrument's performance is completely different, done with CC1 or CC11. Both of those controllers are interpreted by ARIA in exactly the same way, so it doesn't matter if you use the Mod Wheel (for CC1) or an Expression Pedal (for CC11). Dynamic control is the ever-fluctuating volume changes that brings software instruments to life. Crescendos, decrescendos, and the subtle changes in volume that always happen when a real world instrument is sustaining a note - those are produced by CC1 or 11. Subtle timbre changes are also introduced with these controllers. At lower values, instruments have a darker tone, and at higher values, there's a brighter tone. So, CC1 and 11 aren't mixing controls, they're performance controls.

    AUDIO PRODUCTION--

    --If you bounce your tracks to audio, then a lot of volume automation can be recorded on the tracks to create a detailed mix. Hoping to not be confusing, I'll add that volume automation can be recorded on those empty audio tracks hooked up to ARIA if doing an entire piece only in the MIDI realm.

    NOTE: In Sonar, you can right click on a MIDI track header and choose to over ride the slider's default control of ARIA's sliders. As long as you don't touch those Sonar MIDI faders again, ARIA's faders will be in control. There's no real advantage to that, but that option is available. The easiest thing to do is to simply set your levels via Sonar, and then move on to recording your project, dynamic volume control and all.

    ANOTHER NOTE: In DAW software, most MIDI work is done in the Piano Roll View. If a need arises to change an instrument's basic mixer volume, it can be easier to simply insert a CC7 event in the PRV, rather than deal with a volume envelope in the Track View. It's an option, in any case.

    Randy

  6. #6

    Cool Re: Finale Garritan Aria faders reset on play

    Thanks for all the feedback. I understand now, that the score manager in Finale is first in line and that one sets relative levels there (which are reflected in the Aria faders) and that anything finer takes place in the Finale mixer, rudimentary as it is (all of that, of course, modified by the written dynamics). I'm definitely going to try the expression editor suggestion, especially since I use KS instruments a lot and changes from technique to technique are often not at the same volume and I'd like to not have to compensate by writing exaggerated dynamics in the score.

    That's good enough for what I'm doing which is primarily coming up with a score as the product, not the sound file. I prefer to work in score than in a sequencer. But, I'm going to experiment with seeing what happens if I save the score as a midi file and import that into a sequencer with good mix automation. Alas, Finale does not permit saving the individual tracks as separate sound files--I'd love to be able to do audio mixing instead.

    Thanks for all the feedback. MUCH appreciated. I have some technical knowledge, but mainly I'm just a classically oriented composer who gets impatient having to fight the technology. All suggestions are appreciated and will be studied and re-studied.


  7. #7
    Senior Member tedvanya's Avatar
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    Re: Finale Garritan Aria faders reset on play

    Randy, thanks. Of course it works as you say it should. Should we then say to keep our pointers off the faders in Aria?

    The confused and confusing

    Ted

  8. #8

    Re: Finale Garritan Aria faders reset on play

    Quote Originally Posted by tedvanya View Post
    Randy, thanks. Of course it works as you say it should. Should we then say to keep our pointers off the faders in Aria?

    The confused and confusing

    Ted
    hehe---Hello "Confused and Confusing" - Maybe describing what I do will be a sufficient answer:

    --With ARIA in a Sonar project and loaded with instruments, I have its interface open so I can see the mixer.

    --I check the levels by clicking the ARIA keyboard and listening to each instrument.

    --If any instruments seem too soft in proportion to the others, with ARIA still open, I scroll through the tracks in Sonar's track view, and using the slider/faders in the MIDI tracks, adjust the levels.

    --Rinse and repeat as needed throughout a project.

    In other words - Extremely simple. You just don't grab the ARIA sliders, you grab those in Sonar. But with ARIA open, you can see the faders move, you can rest assured you're getting the levels you want. There's no point in using your cursor to grab the faders in ARIA, unless you insist, in which case, do what I said earlier, right click in each of the Sonar MIDI track headers/Inspectors, and turn their control off, giving control back to ARIA. Some people do that, but it's just an added routine to bother with.

    I'll add that getting an absolutely Perfect balance between instruments isn't all that crucial to me, since I bounce all my tracks to audio before doing a final mix. It's the Audio tracks that I fuss with more to get the permanent balance right.

    Randy

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