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Topic: After the Latest Aria Update, Slurs Cut Short in Finale 2011?

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  1. #1

    After the Latest Aria Update, Slurs Cut Short in Finale 2011?

    Yeah so, I had not checked in a long time for updates to ARIA/GPO4 and I finally did.

    I updated all that.

    To be clear, I am using the regular ARIA player, not the "GPO for finale" or whatever.

    Before, it worked fine then after this update, now the last note of a slur always gets cut short and I can't figure out what the problem is. Like lets say you have two 1/8 notes slurred together followed by a 1/4 note that is not slurred with the other two. There will be a significant pause between the second 1/8 and the 1/4.

    Human playback is on, and interpret slurs, I already went through all the basic stuff but it worked before and I haven't changed anything aside from updating to the latest ARIA player and engine.

  2. #2

    Re: After the Latest Aria Update, Slurs Cut Short in Finale 2011?

    Maybe a Finale user here will recognize the issue you're talking about. Meanwhile, I've sent the link to your post to the ARIA developers in case they have info on what you're experiencing. But you do need to contact MakeMusic Support, since they deal with Finale issues.

    Randy

    EDIT: Later, it occurred to me what the problem is, and I posted the answer in post #7.

  3. #3

    Re: After the Latest Aria Update, Slurs Cut Short in Finale 2011?

    Quote Originally Posted by rbowser- View Post
    Maybe a Finale user here will recognize the issue you're talking about. Meanwhile, I've sent the link to your post to the ARIA developers in case they have info on what you're experiencing. But you do need to contact MakeMusic Support, since they deal with Finale issues.

    Randy
    I was hoping not to have to do that, MakeMusic has awful customer service. :\

    Anyway, thanks for that. I figured it might have been a change in Aria because that's the only thing that changed (from the old red interface to the new black one), but I also know Finale is wonky as crap and gives me tones of problems on its own so... yeah. I tried searching MakeMusic's site and turned up nothing.

    And by terrible, I mean they practically don't have one aside from the community forum where a bunch of pretentious arseholes spout "read the manual" a million times before finally listening, realising it isn't in the manual, then telling you that "you can't do that" or something.

  4. #4

    Re: After the Latest Aria Update, Slurs Cut Short in Finale 2011?

    Quote Originally Posted by sardonicus87 View Post
    I was hoping not to have to do that, MakeMusic has awful customer service...
    Well, that's still what you need to do. Whenever I bring up Finale related issues to the ARIA developers they invariably say "Tell the user to contact MM."--Notice that still didn't stop me from contacting them about your issue, - but I'm just saying - The people at MM are experts on their program, just try again if you don't get help from the first support person who responds.

    But there's also the chance that a Finale user here will either recognize and confirm your problem, or will spot an error causing the problem.

    Randy

  5. #5

    Re: After the Latest Aria Update, Slurs Cut Short in Finale 2011?

    I have noticed that in string staves, at least, notes at the end of slurs are noticeably cut off. I can see where a very short cutoff is appropriate because a string player would have to lift the bow for the next note, for instance. But what I hear is a much more pronounced cutoff. I don't hear this is woodwind or brass staves. I can't say if this is new in the latest Aria update, but I can report that I have noticed this cutoff in string parts.
    Arthur J. Michaels
    https://www.facebook.com/composerarthurjmichaels

    Finale 2000 through Finales 25.4 (currently using Finale 25.4)
    Garritan COMB2, GPO4, GPO5, Audacity 2.1.3
    Core i7 860 @ 2.80 GHz, 8.0 GB RAM, Windows 10 Home Premium x64
    Dell 2408 WFP, 1920x1200
    M-Audio Delta Audiophile 2496
    M-Audio AV-40 monitors

  6. #6

    Re: After the Latest Aria Update, Slurs Cut Short in Finale 2011?

    Quote Originally Posted by rbowser- View Post
    Well, that's still what you need to do. Whenever I bring up Finale related issues to the ARIA developers they invariably say "Tell the user to contact MM."--Notice that still didn't stop me from contacting them about your issue, - but I'm just saying - The people at MM are experts on their program, just try again if you don't get help from the first support person who responds.

    But there's also the chance that a Finale user here will either recognize and confirm your problem, or will spot an error causing the problem.

    Randy
    Yeah, that's what I'm about to do now.

    Quote Originally Posted by gogreen1 View Post
    I have noticed that in string staves, at least, notes at the end of slurs are noticeably cut off. I can see where a very short cutoff is appropriate because a string player would have to lift the bow for the next note, for instance. But what I hear is a much more pronounced cutoff. I don't hear this is woodwind or brass staves. I can't say if this is new in the latest Aria update, but I can report that I have noticed this cutoff in string parts.
    Have you noticed it with the current version of Aria Player (the one that's black instead of red)?

    Also, there's no need for a short cut-off any more than with any other standard, non legato playing on a violin string. I also noticed it only happens with the strings. I think I've done it with a horn in F and clarinet and oboe and not had the problem...

  7. #7

    Re: After the Latest Aria Update, Slurs Cut Short in Finale 2011?

    I got it!

    Quote Originally Posted by gogreen1 View Post
    I have noticed that in string staves, at least, notes at the end of slurs are noticeably cut off...
    Quote Originally Posted by sardonicus87 View Post
    ...I also noticed it only happens with the strings. I think I've done it with a horn in F and clarinet and oboe and not had the problem...
    Ah ha! A light bulb went on after reading the new posts from you guys on this. For some reason, what was being talked about wasn't as clear to me earlier.

    Yes - I DO know what you're talking about, and it's been an issue for awhile in the newer ARIAs. Well, I think you're talking about what I have in mind, because it's most pronounced in the strings:

    --The length it takes for a note to fade out was shortened, and I agree it sounds unnatural. It's one of the issues I brought to the attention of the development team some time ago.

    BUT there's a solution. Notice on the Controls tab of ARIA, there's a Length knob, controlled by CC21 (for the DAW users reading this) - That needs to pushed up just a tiny bit, approximately to 54% from its default position of 49%. On a routine basis I need to adjust that control, or get that chopped off sound in the strings which is unfortunately commonly heard in Garritan projects now.

    You're probably not accustomed to dealing with those kinds of controls through Finale, but I'm sure you can. Push that up - I can pretty much guarantee the issue you're talking about will disappear.

    I was confused earlier, thinking the problem was specifically tied to the use of slur marks - It isn't. All string notes are just a fraction too fast in their release.

    Randy

  8. #8

    Re: After the Latest Aria Update, Slurs Cut Short in Finale 2011?

    Quote Originally Posted by rbowser- View Post
    I got it!




    Ah ha! A light bulb went on after reading the new posts from you guys on this. For some reason, what was being talked about wasn't as clear to me earlier.

    Yes - I DO know what you're talking about, and it's been an issue for awhile in the newer ARIAs. Well, I think you're talking about what I have in mind, because it's most pronounced in the strings:

    --The length it takes for a note to fade out was shortened, and I agree it sounds unnatural. It's one of the issues I brought to the attention of the development team some time ago.

    BUT there's a solution. Notice on the Controls tab of ARIA, there's a Length knob, controlled by CC21 (for the DAW users reading this) - That needs to pushed up just a tiny bit, approximately to 54% from its default position of 49%. On a routine basis I need to adjust that control, or get that chopped off sound in the strings which is unfortunately commonly heard in Garritan projects now.

    You're probably not accustomed to dealing with those kinds of controls through Finale, but I'm sure you can. Push that up - I can pretty much guarantee the issue you're talking about will disappear.

    I was confused earlier, thinking the problem was specifically tied to the use of slur marks - It isn't. All string notes are just a fraction too fast in their release.

    Randy
    I will give it a shot. I need to dig through Finale and see what Finale does for that control, because I know it uses it I think? I will manually adjust it and see what happens if it holds or not.

    Either way, I had come back to say that I tested it in Finale 2010 and it did that as well.

    EDIT:

    I bumped them all up to 54% and they sound a LOT better and they held the setting to 54% after playing back and after saving, exiting, and opening back up.

    54% is pretty close to what it should be but there still sounds to be slightly off. I'll mess about with that a little and let you know what I come up with for Finale.

    EDIT AGAIN:
    I actually got 73% as being best for Finale, at least for the strings. However, Finale does use CC#21 (as an option in Human Playback) for "enhanced winds and strings trills" under Garritan Specials sub-menu of the human playback menu.

    At 73% for the strings, they sound right and the delay after a slur is significantly less, but you can still hear a slightly unnatural delay there. I don't know what controller it uses for that. There is one under "general controls" that has a filter for Garritan Libraries for any sustaining instrument using legato on controller CC#68, which doesn't exist on the Aria Player under controls.

    I don't see a keyswitch for legato in the Aria Player either, so I guess it's not triggered by KS. Assuming I can figure out a work-around for the legato control, that 73% may have to drop back down closer to 54%.

  9. #9

    Re: After the Latest Aria Update, Slurs Cut Short in Finale 2011?

    Hello again Sardonicus - This is great to see a user not afraid to delve in and try some "under the hood" tinkering to get things working the way he wants. I appreciate the report on your experiments since I'm not a Finale user and couldn't be sure what you would find from working with the info I gave you.

    Quote Originally Posted by sardonicus87 View Post
    I will give it a shot. I need to dig through Finale and see what Finale does for that control, because I know it uses it I think? I will manually adjust it and see what happens if it holds or not.
    Yes, I was hoping it would be as easy as just using the knob in ARIA, but wasn't sure how Finale otherwise uses CC21 which ARIA uses for Length - More on that below.

    Quote Originally Posted by sardonicus87 View Post
    ...I bumped them all up to 54% and they sound a LOT better and they held the setting to 54% after playing back and after saving, exiting, and opening back up.

    54% is pretty close to what it should be but there still sounds to be slightly off...

    I actually got 73% as being best for Finale, at least for the strings. However, Finale does use CC#21 (as an option in Human Playback) for "enhanced winds and strings trills" under Garritan Specials sub-menu of the human playback menu.
    OK, so Finale does already use CC21. You probably know there are CC#s scattered throughout the MIDI spec which are "undefined." Those can become proprietary controls that programmers use in unique ways. The theory is that by using a non-standard CC for a particular control in a synth or sampler, use of that CC# won't interfere with the operation of other instruments the user may be using.

    Some of the other CC#s not used by ARIA/Garritan are 3, 9, 14, 15,24-31, and the list goes on. Some are probably already used by Finale for their "Human Playback."

    Quote Originally Posted by sardonicus87 View Post
    ...At 73% for the strings, they sound right and the delay after a slur is significantly less, but you can still hear a slightly unnatural delay there. I don't know what controller it uses for that. There is one under "general controls" that has a filter for Garritan Libraries for any sustaining instrument using legato on controller CC#68, which doesn't exist on the Aria Player under controls.

    I don't see a keyswitch for legato in the Aria Player either, so I guess it's not triggered by KS. Assuming I can figure out a work-around for the legato control, that 73% may have to drop back down closer to 54%.
    Going backwards through that last quote:

    --That's correct, no keyswitch for legato. Keyswitches are only used for switching to different articulations. The keyswitch note engages a different sample pool, such as the Pizzicato samples.

    --Yes, CC68 triggers "Garritan Legato," and has since the first version of GPO. You don't see it in ARIA, but the damper pedal triggers that for the string patches. The difference between the Notation samples in GPO and the Standard samples is that the former use CC68 for Garritan Legato, and the latter use CC64 for Garritan Legato. If you had a piano in a Finale score, it would use CC64 for regular sustain, and the strings, woods, brass use CC68 when legato is triggered by the use of slurs.

    --So you can hear the significant improvement with the Length knob pushed up from its default position, but you're still hearing a delay--? I'm not quite understanding what you mean by that. You have a passage of notes with a slur over them, making them legato. That passage ends, and the next note in the score is of a new non-legato passage, right? - When the first slurred passage ends, marked by the end of the slur mark - how could there not be a slight gap between that passage and the next? If there was no gap, then the slur would still be engaged.-- See why I'm not clear? No gap, to me, would indicate that a slur is still in effect. And since I'm not hearing what I would call "an unnatural gap" at the end of a legato passage in Sonar - I don't know what else to say.

    I do know that under various circumstances, I've seen Finale users say that using the Standard set instead of the Notation set of samples has fixed some issues for them. You may wnat to try that experiment.

    So, even though this isn't completely resolved for you, I am glad that the Length control improved things the way I knew it had to. There have been quite a few ARIA updates in the last 6 months, and that choppy quality to the strings was unfortunately introduced some time ago. I'm trying to encourage the developers to see that as a legitimate problem.

    Randy

  10. #10

    Re: After the Latest Aria Update, Slurs Cut Short in Finale 2011?

    BUT there's a solution. Notice on the Controls tab of ARIA, there's a Length knob, controlled by CC21 (for the DAW users reading this) - That needs to pushed up just a tiny bit, approximately to 54% from its default position of 49%. On a routine basis I need to adjust that control, or get that chopped off sound in the strings which is unfortunately commonly heard in Garritan projects now.

    You're probably not accustomed to dealing with those kinds of controls through Finale, but I'm sure you can. Push that up - I can pretty much guarantee the issue you're talking about will disappear.
    Thanks, Randy. This sounds right on the money. You and Sardonicus87 are way ahead of me on this, but I will experiment. Thanks again!
    Arthur J. Michaels
    https://www.facebook.com/composerarthurjmichaels

    Finale 2000 through Finales 25.4 (currently using Finale 25.4)
    Garritan COMB2, GPO4, GPO5, Audacity 2.1.3
    Core i7 860 @ 2.80 GHz, 8.0 GB RAM, Windows 10 Home Premium x64
    Dell 2408 WFP, 1920x1200
    M-Audio Delta Audiophile 2496
    M-Audio AV-40 monitors

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