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Topic: Garritan Classic Pipe Organ bugs

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  1. #1

    Garritan Classic Pipe Organ bugs

    Hi all,

    as thanks to the 20% now I'm a proud owner of GCPO, I start here a thread in the hope of getting fixes for some bugs in the next update.
    - Classical Pedal Forte: D3-F#3 - strange variations in the sound
    - Mod1 Prinzipal 8' - F6 and above - Annoying distortion
    - Mod1 Pedal Bar Plenum - G3 - Audible click at end of loop

    I will continue this thread when I found more issues (I hope not much )

  2. #2

    Re: Garritan Classic Pipe Organ bugs

    Next bug: coupling.
    This seems to be a conceptual problem with using the simple Aria player as an organ engine.
    For example:
    - Assign some stops as Channel 1, configure this to be your keyboard.
    - Assign some stops to Channel 2, configure this to be your pedalboard.
    - Now couple pedal and keys, i.e. what you send to channel 2 send to channel 1 as well.
    - Issue: when you release a pedal which is also pressed on the manual, the manual sound will stop, because a note off is sent to the keyboard channel.
    - Bad workaround: duplicate the stops for the pedal - this is not just cumbersome, but also not correct, as the given notes will sound twice on the two channels.
    In Reaper I could write a script that correctly filters the note ons/offs, but it would be good if the Aria player supported that routing.

  3. #3

    Re: Garritan Classic Pipe Organ bugs

    Quote Originally Posted by briff View Post
    ...
    - Now couple pedal and keys, i.e. what you send to channel 2 send to channel 1 as well.
    - Issue: when you release a pedal which is also pressed on the manual, the manual sound will stop, because a note off is sent to the keyboard channel...
    Hmm. I don't get it. You've set they keyboard to one MIDI channel, the Pedals to another - Why are you "coupling," somehow sending channel 2 to 1? The only result I can see is what you describe - notes cut off when you don't want.

    Why aren't you just sticking with the two MIDI channels for the two different but parallel tasks so you can keep the two data streams strict?

    Randy

  4. #4

    Re: Garritan Classic Pipe Organ bugs

    Quote Originally Posted by rbowser- View Post
    Hmm. I don't get it. You've set they keyboard to one MIDI channel, the Pedals to another - Why are you "coupling," somehow sending channel 2 to 1? The only result I can see is what you describe - notes cut off when you don't want.

    Why aren't you just sticking with the two MIDI channels for the two different but parallel tasks so you can keep the two data streams strict?

    Randy
    Coupling is very typical on pipe organ: you want to play the same stops on the pedal as on the manual, having only an extra 16' stop for the pedal.
    On many organs coupling is mechanical on the console, so pressing the pedal will actually press the corresponding manual key. Of course, releasing the manual key won't release the pedal I keep pressing, On two separate channels I have to include the manual stops twice, once for the manual, once for the pedal. This is cumbersome and takes extra cpu. Also this is not realistic as will play the same pipe twice for the two channels, which is impossible on a real organ.

    Briff

  5. #5

    Re: Garritan Classic Pipe Organ bugs

    Quote Originally Posted by briff View Post
    Coupling is very typical on pipe organ: you want to play the same stops on the pedal as on the manual, having only an extra 16' stop for the pedal.
    On many organs coupling is mechanical on the console, so pressing the pedal will actually press the corresponding manual key. Of course, releasing the manual key won't release the pedal I keep pressing, On two separate channels I have to include the manual stops twice, once for the manual, once for the pedal. This is cumbersome and takes extra cpu. Also this is not realistic as will play the same pipe twice for the two channels, which is impossible on a real organ.

    Briff
    AH - I see. Thanks for the explanation, Briff. I take it it doesn't work to just have both pedal on keyboard on the same MIDI channel, because you want to be able to un-couple whenever you want?

    Randy

  6. #6

    Re: Garritan Classic Pipe Organ bugs

    Quote Originally Posted by rbowser- View Post
    AH - I see. Thanks for the explanation, Briff. I take it it doesn't work to just have both pedal on keyboard on the same MIDI channel, because you want to be able to un-couple whenever you want?

    Randy
    Not exactly. If you look closely at this video (in HD, Full screen ), you can see that both upper manuals and the pedal are coupled together. And at 0:49 the melody touches the G bass note held in the Pedal- having these on the same MIDI channel in Aria would mean that when the organist's finger released the G, the pedal would stop sounding... (Actually this is the piece where I noticed the problem.)


  7. #7

    Re: Garritan Classic Pipe Organ bugs

    Right, I see - I hadn't thought of this before, appreciate you explaining. Hmmm, I'm wondering if there's any info from the developers on this? I was on the Beta team for Organs, strictly as a lay person with no clue about what organists actually need in an instrument. I focused on sound of the samples and the controls.

    One thing I do know is for some time now there's been an advanced drawbar interface in development which would be in ARIA's Controls window. It gives control over selecting various stops during the course of a piece, with the drawbars all under MIDI control. I'm surprised that hasn't been released yet - it seemed pretty much ready to go with a release imminent about 8 months ago. I recently inquired about the delay on the release, but haven't received a response yet.

    Randy

  8. #8

    Re: Garritan Classic Pipe Organ bugs

    Two more issues.

    1. Range - This was quite surprising: baroque manual stops are covering only 4 octaves C to c''. Looking at some pieces from the 1700s I think this is not typical. I could easily extend the range by changing the sfz files and using c'' sample for higher notes, but this selection of range seems to be quite a big mistake.

    2. Virtual keyboard assignment. The keyboard displayed in the Aria player should correspond to a piano keyboard, but it doesn't for CPO. When I press middle c' on the piano, c'' is displayed pressed on the virtual keyboard.

  9. #9
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    Re: Garritan Classic Pipe Organ bugs

    My understanding is that the full range of each of the organs were sampled. Some of these organs didn't have 5 octave keyboards.

    Some keyboards don't always output at the same octave. Yamaha keyboards are usually off an octave from most of the other brands.

    Jim

  10. #10

    Re: Garritan Classic Pipe Organ bugs

    Quote Originally Posted by Haydn View Post
    My understanding is that the full range of each of the organs were sampled. Some of these organs didn't have 5 octave keyboards.

    Some keyboards don't always output at the same octave. Yamaha keyboards are usually off an octave from most of the other brands.

    Jim
    Well, I looked into Hans Klotz's book and based on his examples most German and English baroque organs had their manuals from C to d''' - and this seems to be needed for like Bach's works.
    Also actually not all notes are included in the samples (which is somewhat disappointing as well), but the same sample is used for different notes - extending the range in software with 2 seminotes would not have been hard even if the original Czech organs don't have so many keys.

    Regarding the octave: I'll double check, but the notes sound right, ie. a 8' stop does sound middle c' when pressing c' on the piano, so only the display is confusing.

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