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Topic: OT: Mixing question for the King!

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  1. #1

    OT: Mixing question for the King!

    King,

    I had to ask you about this mixing idea I just did last night and boy did it make a difference! I took the drums and bass track (combined them) and copied it to another track, hard panned each track left and right and ever so slightly delayed the right track, just enough to widen the stereo width. The resulting sound was frickin huge! The resulting drums and bass sounded really full, on a par with what I hear on commmercial cd\'s. I\'ve never done this with bass or drums before, and I\'m wondering what you think of this method and if it\'s a common thing to do to \"thinken\" things up a bit. The drums ended up sounding probably too wide, but the bass guitar was really awesome. Really filled things out, especially when trying to emulate that classic 3 piece Rush sound. [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img] Any comments or tips are appreciated.

  2. #2

    Re: OT: Mixing question for the King!

    That\'s one of the oldest tricks in the book [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

    It\'s done on EVERY commercial rock track out there.

    Guitars are almost always double(or triple or even quadrouple) tracked in that way.

    Thomas

  3. #3

    Re: OT: Mixing question for the King!

    thomas...maybe it\'s an old trick, but from what i\'m hearing from munsie is he never had, and he experimented a bit and came up with this idea without the knowledge of this technique. Which means he\'s willing to try new things which will serve him well in the future.
    don\'t be so quick to jump on others inexperience, it makes you come off in a way i\'m sure you don\'t want to.

  4. #4

    Re: OT: Mixing question for the King!

    dSonicka,

    I didn\'t take Thomas_J\'s post as negative at all. You misunderstood the tone of his post. But thanks for the back up anyway!

    Thomas_J,

    I completely agree it\'s an old trick, but I\'ve never used it on drums or bass guitar before. I\'ve been experimenting with doubling,tripling guitar and synths, but I\'ve always left the bass and drums single tracked, until now. [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img] MAN what a difference. [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img] [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img] [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

  5. #5

    Re: OT: Mixing question for the King!

    Its a cool trick, and its been used a bit.

    One issue to make sure to look out for. Doing this can cause major phasing/comb filter issues with mono mixes. I suggest checking it in mono to see what you think, and then decide whether or not mono is an issue you want to worry about.

    I still personally mix Drums and Bass pretty center. It gives me room for Guitars and such.

    once you start to put everything in the same place, you get problems with mixing levels of each instrument. It becomes a wall of sound, and everything starts fighting for space.

    I also disagree with TJ about this being used on every Rock track out there.

    With Drums and Bass, its a matter of taste. I find the mix that works for me is to collapse the stereo field of the drums a bit, and add a bit of verb to the snare (in pre send) thats not too noticable, then collapse that to near mono. Keep the the kick very center and shape the frequency to fit the bass guitar if its a tight bass drum track, or open it up slightly if the drums and bass aren\'t playing the same, letting the bass be more of a low frequency band space filler.

    If you listen to \"NuSkool\" metal bands this is pretty much how its done.

    In Prog rock however, the drums are pretty wide. The overall room sound and kick/snare is center, but the toms are super panned, since these guys do so many fills, they want it to \"move\"

    Anyhow, I always have a problem with the delay and har pan L/R trick on percussive instruments, to get good results that dont phase/comb filter you start to get flamming.. On acoustic guitars it sounds fantastic. Electric/distorted, I just find its ok, but you are way better off tracking with multiple takes of the same setup (cant really be done with samples).

    If you\'re looking to try another cool idea along these lines. Try making two copies of the track, delay the second copy a few ms from the original, and then the 3rd a few more ms. Then pan the copies hard left/right. Leave the original alone, then EQ the copies to lose alot of highs/high mids. This can help lose alot of the \"flamming\" effects and slightly increase the stereo field. Again watch out for phasing issues. Try even throwing hte copies through an effect, or small room reverb.

    All these tricks equal glorified chorus/delay. The only thing different in chorusing is the modulation.

  6. #6

    Re: OT: Mixing question for the King!

    Hehe i was not meant to be negative at all! I think it\'s great that Munsie has found the technique! I remember my enthusiasm about it when I discovered the technique way back in the days when I was just getting started with trackers. I found that hard panning left and right with a little delay in one of the channels made the sound fuller and sit better in the stereo spread.

    King: I don\'t know that much about rock music but most of the stuff I\'ve listened to that involves distorted guitars or acoustic strumming in pop music is doubletracked and panned left and right.
    In fact I can\'t think of a single radio pop hit with guitar strums that aren\'t doubletracked [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

    I don\'t want to give out misguiding information, and King would probably correct me if I\'m wrong (him being the real guitarist here [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

    Thomas

  7. #7

    Re: OT: Mixing question for the King!

    Thomas you\'re right, but double tracking, and delaying a track and panning hard l/r are two different things in my opinion.

    Actually tracking a part twice with a real player creates a new set of waveforms that cause minimum phasing. You may get the same room frequencies and such, but generally the response never occurs exactly the same on both tracks, because no player is sample accurate 100% through a piece [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

    Its about the same difference as trying to layer the same violins sample on top of its self to make \"2 vilolins\" It will never sound like two violins, jsut a louder single violin. If you delay one, it still doesn\'t sound like two violins, just a delay, or...if you really use your imagination, 2 violins with one always playing EXACTLY behind the first. [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

    Maybe he\'s got some wierd \"double bow\" that allows him to play like that [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

  8. #8

    Re: OT: Mixing question for the King!

    >Thomas you\'re right, but double tracking, and delaying a track and panning hard l/r are two different things in my opinion. -King-

    Definitely. Wonder if you can double track with the dual sample sets of the Bigga Gigga solo brass? If they are truly independently recorded you would be able to. I just about always double track and pan acoustic guitar to get a big sound- bigger than you can get by panning and delay of a single take.

    Merry Xmas to all!
    Carl

  9. #9
    Senior Member Bruce A. Richardson's Avatar
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    Re: OT: Mixing question for the King!

    Originally posted by carlmsmith:


    Definitely. Wonder if you can double track with the dual sample sets of the Bigga Gigga solo brass? If they are truly independently recorded you would be able to. I just about always double track and pan acoustic guitar to get a big sound- bigger than you can get by panning and delay of a single take.

    Carl
    <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Yes and no. With brass it\'s better with different players. Players that get sampled tend to be very consistent (to be suitable for the challenge) and therefore tend to voice a given note very similarly on separate takes.

    So, you tend to get a somewhat ensemble-esque effect, but not really a killer one. I find that using the same instrument from different libraries works a bit better. Some people here have had very good luck with that.

  10. #10

    Re: OT: Mixing question for the King!

    Carl,

    Add on top of what Bruce said, with the idea that room frequencies, and the over all response of the instrument and how its played will be similar in different takes of the same note played at the same dynamic, and you get even more reasons why its not the same as multiple players/instruments.

    Having two instruments but the same player would help, and I know Worra\'s been thinking of that with the strings he wanted to do.

    Its sort of the same reason in rock music, that people use different guitars for doubling/thickening up certain parts of performances (mostly chugs)

    if the sample is chromatic, you can help ease this with shifting adjacent notes up or down. This really does, while its not \"real\" per se, its sometimes better than having two samples of the same instrument with the same frequency response...etc...

    (I tend to shift downwards when I can.....both in the mustang in in samples hehee)

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