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Topic: JABB trumpets out of tune

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  1. #1

    JABB trumpets out of tune

    I've got a passage where two JABB trumpets are out of tune--sour on 4ths and 5ths, noticeable beating on unison passage. I tried patching in SAM trumpets from the orchestra and they are in tune. I'm using Sonar X2a, Windows 7 64-bit. Latest version of ARIA. Has anyone noticed this before? Thanks.
    Dean L. Surkin
    Steinway A104030
    Sonar X2 (professional), Finale 2011, JABB 3, GPO

  2. #2

    Re: JABB trumpets out of tune

    Quote Originally Posted by Dean L. Surkin View Post
    I've got a passage where two JABB trumpets are out of tune--sour on 4ths and 5ths, noticeable beating on unison passage. I tried patching in SAM trumpets from the orchestra and they are in tune. I'm using Sonar X2a, Windows 7 64-bit. Latest version of ARIA. Has anyone noticed this before? Thanks.
    Hi, Dean

    1) It's good to see you here. Thanks for the post.

    2) Could you please specify which trumpets you're using? --Not counting the various mute versions, and the plunger, there are 5 basic instruments in JABB.

    3) Are you using the notation, or standard samples?

    When I have time tomorrow, Monday, 7/15, I'll test this out, but it would help to have more info.

    I'll say that at random, throughout the Garritan Libraries, I've occasionally found some out of tune samples. The timpani is probably the most well known instrument which is essentially out of tune across the board, though some notes are more off than others. Whenever I'm working on a project and run into some notes that just aren't working, I use pitch correction on an audio rendering of the passage. That's an effective work around for people who produce their tracks with audio, rather than just working with MIDI tracks.

    With a bit more info, I can check it out and report what I'm able.

    Randy

  3. #3

    Re: JABB trumpets out of tune

    Quote Originally Posted by rbowser- View Post
    Hi, Dean

    1) It's good to see you here. Thanks for the post.

    2) Could you please specify which trumpets you're using? --Not counting the various mute versions, and the plunger, there are 5 basic instruments in JABB.

    3) Are you using the notation, or standard samples? [snip]
    Randy--

    Thanks for the fast reply. I was using the Standard samples, Trumpet 5 (playing the lead part ) and Trumpet 1 (playing the second part). I then switched out Trumpet 1 for Trumpet 3, with the same result. I swapped in SAM Player 1 and GPO Trumpet player 1 for the two parts, and the intonation was much better (but as you can imagine, the "shake" that comes up in the middle of the part sounded more like a trill).
    Dean L. Surkin
    Steinway A104030
    Sonar X2 (professional), Finale 2011, JABB 3, GPO

  4. #4

    Re: JABB trumpets out of tune

    H'lo again, Dean - Thanks for the info.

    I loaded trumpet 5 and trumpet 1 in sonar, and put together a little test:

    --Trump 5 plays middle C through G, trump 1 paralleling in 4ths, starting on F, ending on C. Then trump 5 plays C through G again, with trump 1 paralleling in 5ths, G through D.

    Then there are similar patterns going on up into the higher octaves.

    At first I played the trumpets with vibrato, recording with AfterTouch, but then I erased that data, concerned that the vibrato could confuse the results. I used some reverb, since totally dry instruments can put one's nerves on edge.

    Are you hearing any "beating," "sour" notes in this? It's all sounding right to me. This recording doesn't use all the samples, but I was hoping it would be representative enough.

    I have to assume that the particular passage in your project uses a different combination of notes than I have in this test file. What would be great is if you could select just that part of the project, solo the trumpets, and post an MP3 for us to hear.

    JABB Trumpet test

    And, if there isn't some stray Var 1, Var 2, or pitch bend causing the tuning problem, I hope you try what I suggested with using V-Vocal to pitch correct the notes you want to fix.

    Randy

  5. #5

    Re: JABB trumpets out of tune

    [QUOTE=r
    The timpani is probably the most well known instrument which is essentially out of tune across the board, though some notes are more off than others.
    Randy[/QUOTE]

    I'm somewhat concerned at this news, Randy
    Why would this be?

  6. #6

    Re: JABB trumpets out of tune

    Ditto for me on the timpani -- and any other instruments that are not in tune. It would help to have a list of which notes, in which instruments are not in tune (also the version of the library, if it only occurs in some versions).

    Allegro Data Solutions

  7. #7

    Re: JABB trumpets out of tune

    Quote Originally Posted by rbowser- View Post
    H'lo again, Dean - Thanks for the info.

    [snip]

    I have to assume that the particular passage in your project uses a different combination of notes than I have in this test file. What would be great is if you could select just that part of the project, solo the trumpets, and post an MP3 for us to hear. [snip]

    And, if there isn't some stray Var 1, Var 2, or pitch bend causing the tuning problem, I hope you try what I suggested with using V-Vocal to pitch correct the notes you want to fix.

    Randy
    Randy:

    Thanks for the suggestions. I'll unwind the Sonar file back to where I heard the problems, and try to save an MP3.
    Dean L. Surkin
    Steinway A104030
    Sonar X2 (professional), Finale 2011, JABB 3, GPO

  8. #8

    Re: JABB trumpets out of tune

    Now this is strange. I played back the Sonar file, plenty of beating/off pitch. I exported just the two trumpets, and got an in-tune playback. I'd attach the MP3, but I can't seem to find a menu command for attaching a file (only command for attaching videos and images identified by URLs).

    I guess I'll crawl back into my hole and see if this comes up again. Thanks anyway...
    Dean L. Surkin
    Steinway A104030
    Sonar X2 (professional), Finale 2011, JABB 3, GPO

  9. #9

    Re: JABB trumpets out of tune

    Taking the new posts in order. About the timpani tuning problem:

    Quote Originally Posted by airflamesred View Post
    I'm somewhat concerned at this news, Randy
    Why would this be?
    Impossible to know why any out of tune samples crop up here and there, but the timpani is the one instrument that's been commented on most often over the years as the one with a problem consistently noticed. The tuning for that could actually be fixed in the SFZ file, but I've only used the tuning control in ARIA when there are times when the sharpness is noticeable.

    Quote Originally Posted by ejr View Post
    Ditto for me on the timpani -- and any other instruments that are not in tune. It would help to have a list of which notes, in which instruments are not in tune (also the version of the library, if it only occurs in some versions).
    The tuning problems I can think of are present in all versions of GPO. BUT, as convenient as it would be to have a definitive list of instruments and their problematic samples, it would be extremely difficult to compile that. Hearing a sample as being out of tune can be so specific to a project. In one piece, nothing will sound amiss, but because of a particular combination of notes, of the relative sparsity or density of instruments in a given section, sometimes a note will just stick out as needing help. On the rare occasion when I hear a problem, I fix it either with a bit of pitch bend, the amount of which is discovered on a trial-and-error basis, or I use a pitch correction app like Sonar's V-Vocal to correct the rendered note.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dean L. Surkin View Post
    Now this is strange. I played back the Sonar file, plenty of beating/off pitch. I exported just the two trumpets, and got an in-tune playback. I'd attach the MP3, but I can't seem to find a menu command for attaching a file (only command for attaching videos and images identified by URLs).

    I guess I'll crawl back into my hole and see if this comes up again. Thanks anyway...
    Hmmm, since your export is in tune, Dean, that sounds like there's hidden data in your track causing the pitch to shift, and when you selected the passage for export, that data wasn't included. If you use Sonar's Event List view, click "show hidden" and you'll get the true picture of all the data in a track - data that doesn't show up in the Piano Roll View. I've found many a gremlin through the Event List which was otherwise mysterious. There must be something hidden, a pitch bend value, or Var 1/Var 2, something of the sort.

    About sharing pictures and music files on the Forum, we can't directly attach them to messages. The file, audio or visual, has to be parked online somewhere that allows direct linking, then you use the message tools to insert the URL. You had most of the answer in your post, you just need to have a URL for your MP3 by uploading it to a storage site like Box or Tripod. That's how we post music in the Listening Room, and pictures here in General Discussion.

    Randy

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