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Topic: endless discussion about software license

  1. #1

    Re: endless discussion about software license

    Originally posted by bosone:
    and one day i WILL stop making music because i not a professional musician (and i will never be one) and in some years i willhave a family, an home, children and so on.
    <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">You don\'t have to be a professional to make music, continue making music forever and share it with your family...for sure you should orchestrate a song for your bride at the wedding!!!

  2. #2

    Re: endless discussion about software license

    The way I look at it, if you can sell 25 CDs at $10 each to your friends and acquantances, you\'ve basically recouped your GPO investment!

    I\'ve bought thousands of dollars of software that today are worthless and nobody will probably even buy them at Ebay. But at the time, they were cutting edge. I see the same thing with GPO.

  3. #3
    Senior Member Bruce A. Richardson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 1999
    Dallas, Texas

    Re: endless discussion about software license

    Heck, I\'ve got tens of thousands of dollars worth of keyboards, ADATs, rack-effects, you name it, that won\'t fetch 1/100th of their value today. Better to keep them and hope they become museum pieces before I\'m dead, haha.

    I have some sympathy for the hobbyist, but then again, if a hobbyist wants to use professional tools, it\'s really not up to the developers of those tools to provide a price point, or a retail strategy, which favors the nonprofessional user. The way these tools are license and marketed is based upon the assumption that a person WILL recoup the money. If a hobbyist wants to use these tools, that is just something that comes with the territory. There are plenty of other options available in hardware (or acoustic instruments) which bring as much fulfillment, and can be resold.

    I take a pretty hard line on some issues with the development/distribution community, but on this one, I have to say that their model is as fair as is possible. There\'s just no way one could eliminate the restriction on resale, and still see incentive for library development. It would harm the economic engine irrepairably, and we would all lose out...hobbyists among the rest.

  4. #4

    Re: endless discussion about software license

    It is ironic the way that things have developed.

    * Samplers were developed with some built-in sounds. Users could add their own sounds.

    * Third parties start to develop sounds for the samplers

    * The third parties discover that their sounds can be easily pirated.

    * Restrictive licenses are developed for sample sets

    * Some developers move to Rompling their samples and using copy protection and authentication schemes to ensure that the sounds aren\'t pirated.

    * Assuming that the anti-pirate copy protection works (big assumption!) pirating is largely eliminated.

    * Users now find greater technical restrictions, yet the license restrictions remain as tight as ever.

    I\'m as against pirating as anybody, but with strong copy protection methods, I would prefer if people were allowed to transfer/sell their licenses. The price of the soundsets is a fairly independent issue, based on market size, competition and development costs.

    I\'m an idealist. But from a practical standpoint, I\'m not too worried about it. I\'ll get $249 worth of value from GPO long before I would plan to sell it. EWQLSO Platinum is another story.

  5. #5

    Re: endless discussion about software license

    I\'m as against pirating as anybody, but with strong copy protection methods, I would prefer if people were allowed to transfer/sell their licenses.-Jon

    Jon, those are my sentiments exactly. I\'m an amateur/hobbyist as well. I see all the new libraries coming out now and would love to have some of them. Money is not the problem- I have a home studio filled with goodies. But these hardware items I already have are on a moderate depreciation curve. The new libraries on the other hand would be worth exactly zero when I take the plastic off the package. Even Tascam is more liberal that library developers- they allow transfers.

    How about developing some kind of foolproof virtual dongle that restricts the use of the software? Pass the software around freely, sell it and leave it on your machine- but it doesn\'t work without the tightly controlled \"passkey\".

    Anyway, I applaud all the developers of moderately priced libraries, including the recent offerings of VSL and EastWest. That\'s a step in the right direction.

    Oh, I know these are professional tools, and the pros can take tax write-offs, and besides, the tools will pay for themselves shortly, so its not that big a deal for them. But guys, we\'ll support you on anti-piracy. How about giving US a break and supporting changes that will make it easier for US to own the libs, too?


  6. #6

    endless discussion about software license

    i know that this has probably been discussed a lot of times, but i\'d like to express my opinions...
    i think that the license agreement of samples cd and of thelatest software is a great drawback for people like me that wants to buy original software.
    i have just ordered GPO, and probably in the future i will buy some other software, but what does stop me from this is that i can never re-sell such a software when i will stop making music. and one day i WILL stop making music because i not a professional musician (and i will never be one) and in some years i willhave a family, an home, children and so on.
    now, i will happily spend 250$ for GPO. but this purchase would make feel betterif i know that, threeyears from now, i can resell GPO to another guy (even for 25$) because i will not use it anymore.
    if i buy a soundcard, a harwdare expander, or have other \"real\" thing, i can have back some of my money one day (a half, a tenth, does not matter!). but with software this is not true.
    and this apply nearly to every software house.

    beside this, one can think that the \"not-reselling\" policy serves to stop piracy, but i\'d say that it can increase piracy, because i know that if i spend 300$ for a software i may never have a part of this money back: at this point one that does not live with music could opt for a download with some sharing program.

    i think that software house may rethink about this matter, as they have to rethink their price policies in order to combat piracy.
    I decided to buy GPO without thinking about it too much, because for the first time i saw a GREAT package at a VERY LOW price. before GPO appeared one, with 25$, could only buy a piano VST (the grand), or maybe some strings (halion string edition), an akai cd or two (advanced orhcestra).
    GPO is really a bargain and i think is a milestone in virtual instrument world, so thank again gary!! (look forward to receive soon my copy!!)

  7. #7
    Senior Member Bruce A. Richardson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 1999
    Dallas, Texas

    Re: endless discussion about software license

    Man, you can hardly get a decent bag of pot for $250...and you sure can\'t re-sell that after you\'ve enjoyed it. You wouldn\'t have been able to touch technology 1/100th this flexible and advanced for $10,000 just a few years ago.

    Sorry, I don\'t get the problem. We\'re living in a near dream-world of value.

  8. #8

    Re: endless discussion about software license

    Originally posted by carlmsmith:
    How about developing some kind of foolproof virtual dongle that restricts the use of the software? Pass the software around freely, sell it and leave it on your machine- but it doesn\'t work without the tightly controlled \"passkey\".
    <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">That\'s the idea with the ilok keys. As far as I know it works pretty well. Those who want to pirate it still find a way to pirate it, and those who want to be honest but have separate Protools machines can buy 2 copies of everything because the copy protection is so difficult.

    Can you imagine the craziness on this board if East West released a library that needed 4 computers to run (as QLSO platinum pretty much does) required you to specify up front all your ilok numbers? Then once those keys are authorized you\'re stuck. uhhhh NO.

    I\'m a logic user, and from time to time I like to take my laptop onthe road with me and do some sample editing or something. But I always have to pre-plan to do such work, because I have to go through the trouble of taking my XS key out. There has been more then one occasion I wanted to open logic on my laptop and couldn\'t because my key was at home. Now - I\'ve been using logic for almost 10 years, I\'ve paid for every upgrade - I\'m a good honest customer, and yet I\'m the one who has to pay the price because of the pirates.

    I personally am a proponent of a CD verification and Registration # to authorize. It\'s enough to turn the casual pirate away, but not too big of a pain for the honest user. Pirates will be pirates and we can\'t stop them - all we\'re doing is making life miserable for the honest users to do fresh installs.

    One of the biggest problems I\'ve found is younger people who may even be pro, but have limited funds - and the ammatures alike - They want to buy software, but unfortunately they have no clue what the software would function like. Why? Because their local stores can\'t afford to open a copy of every software and pay to install it just for a demo. This is something my local store is dealing with. We just discussed it yesterday. I could have sold 2 spectrasonics products for them if I could have shown the guy I was talking to what the products were. But I had to show him the box and say \"yes it really works\". He walked out bare handed because he\'s had bad experiences before.

    Sure I KNOW the products work great, and I trust Spectrasonics, but this guy didn\'t. He doens\'t take the time to find NS and read about products - he wants to go in a store, play a demo, and buy the product.

    NI would say they have demos available in the store, but the 15 minute, not-fully functional demo is not what people want to be able to use.

    I think software reps should be able to authorize a stores computer with a fully functional piece of software. Then train the employees to show the software/samples. Employees can tell you about a Motif - because they have a floor model, and they can learn it, then show you. Then the buyer can put his hands on it and play - then he buys. But they can\'t do that with software, much less samples.

    My local store guy says he could sell twice as much if he had floor demonstrations available, but the markup is so low on software that it would take him to long to recoup his money by buying all that software just to show it off.

    Now if he could buy it and then transfer the liscense as a used software - like they can do with a keyboard - it could work.

    A solution DOES have to be reached regarding these issues. The public will not continue to accept it I don\'t think. Instead of spending $3-400 they can\'t try before they buy with no return policy, they try to find a friend and copy his. That\'s how piracy works. Once they\'ve copied for a demo experience, they rarely are going to go buy it, simply because now they have it.

    On the flip software companies are loosing a TON of money on pirates. So they\'re going to try to make it harder and harder. In the end CRIME DOESN\"T PAY - for ANYBODY. It\'s up to us as users to make pirates we might meet feel REALLY bad for being dishonest. I actually had to leave a studio I was working in once because I made the owner mad by calling his hand on pirated plugins. That wasn\'t cool [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img] But I\'ve moved on and waves has still not sold that license!

    I don\'t have the answser - but I do know we can\'t just accept things the way they are. The issue keeps coming up because it\'s going to HAVE to be dealt with.


  9. #9

    Re: endless discussion about software license

    By the way, I think a few major producers/production houses getting drug across the media and thrown into jail for their pirating may go a long way. Some petty users should be made examples of too. It\'s harsh, but the public has GOT to be made aware of what they\'re doing. Most don\'t even know it\'s wrong - or if they do know it\'s wrong they\'ve found a bad way to justify it.

    I received an email with this speech from Senator Frist today. We should all make our local/state governments aware that we are all getting hurt by this. The economy as a whole is getting hurt. We DO need legislation and laws accounting for the problems, and then some people need to be made example of I think - for as long as it takes to scare kids out of pirating.

    Here\'s the Speech:

    Recent Senator Bill Frist Floor statement on threat of music
    piracy/Nashville-Tennessee music community

    Per Mitch Glazier (RIAA Govt. Affairs): For those who may not know, Jim
    Hippe was the one who drafted and pushed this with the Leader in case
    anyone wants to drop him a thank you (jim_hippe@frist.senate.gov)

    Mr. FRIST: Mr. President, I had the opportunity to take my wife Karyn to
    the Kennedy Center Honors, which is an annual tradition here. It is really
    a remarkable evening--a 2-day event--where America celebrates cultural
    icons. Most of them have been recognized before. But in that special
    gathering and in that beautiful building, the Kennedy Center, it takes on a
    really special meaning I think for us in this body, in the U.S. Congress,
    for those of us here in Washington, but indeed for people around the world
    as they see it replayed just after, I think, December 26.

    While I was there, I couldn\'t help but to reflect as I watched one of
    country music\'s greats, Loretta Lynn, receive her honor. An issue that
    affects the State of Tennessee but indeed which affects people throughout
    the United States of America deals with intellectual property rights.

    The State of Tennessee is known the world over for its vibrant musical
    heritage. It is the home of the Grand Ole Opry and the Country Music Hall
    of Fame. Indeed, Tennessee has produced some of the greatest popular
    pioneers of all time.

    Indeed, Tennessee has produced Elvis Presley, Johnny Cash, Loretta Lynn,
    Dolly Parton, and the list goes on. Those who grew up in Nashville had that
    opportunity to go by on a regular basis and experience the music at the
    wonderful Ryman Auditorium, where the Grand Ole Opry was housed for so many

    In the next few weeks, we will have the pleasure of hearing renditions
    of many of these artists with their Christmas carols played over the
    airwaves all across this country and even all across this globe, in
    shopping malls just about everywhere the holidays are celebrated.

    The music community that creates these opportunities and this joy is
    being threatened. In these closing minutes, I bring that to the attention
    of my colleagues. It is being threatened by those who love it so much, who
    appreciate it so much; that is, the millions of people who are downloading
    billions of illegal music files.

    I have had the privilege of meeting diverse groups of leaders from the
    music community on several occasions, but the focus has been to discuss the
    effects of piracy on the music industry. It is huge. It is far reaching. It
    is the artist, it is the record companies, it is the performing rights
    organizations, it is the publishers. The bottom line is clear: Piracy is
    greatly impacting the music community. The situation is, indeed, growing
    worse. Online music piracy is out of control.

    Currently, every month, 2.6 billion music files are downloaded illegally
    using peer-to-peer networks. It is not unusual for albums to show up on the
    Internet before they make it to the record stores. The music industry is
    losing $4 billion a year to piracy , and that dollar figure is growing
    every day. Most alarming, there is an entire generation of young Americans
    who believe that downloading online music is acceptable, it is the norm, it
    is legal, like being your own personal DJ without ever having to buy a CD.

    Piracy affects more than just the music industry. It affects that larger
    element of intellectual property. It includes the movie industry, it
    includes the software industry. Indeed, the numbers are staggering.
    According to a report released by the International Intellectual Property
    Alliance, U.S. copyright industries--and that includes music, movies,
    books, and software--contributed $535 billion to the U.S. economy in 2001.
    They collectively employ over 4.7 million workers. They generate almost
    $900 billion in foreign sales, making intellectual property one of our
    largest exports.

    Other countries often do not respect our copyright laws. They allow mass
    copying of music and other works. For example, it is estimated that an
    astounding 92 percent of business software used in China is pirated. In my
    travels to Asia several months ago, I directly stressed the importance of
    protecting our copyright laws to the leaders of China and Taiwan and Korea,
    the countries I visited. Copyright pirating is costing our economy
    billions. As leaders, we must educate the public that illegally downloading
    music or copyrighted material is stealing, straight and simple. Most people
    would never steal a CD from Wal-Mart, but they do not think twice before
    burning a CD from illegally downloaded music. People forget that an
    artist\'s song is just like a baker\'s loaf of bread; it is their creation;
    it is their livelihood.

    While the future of the music industry lies with the merging technology,
    the industry simply cannot survive if Internet piracy steals its value any
    more than a shop owner can survive having their inventory stolen from under
    him or her every week or a restaurant owner can afford in some way to serve
    meals for free.

    Eventually, unabated piracy will dry up income. It drives away the
    creative spirit. It drives away artists. It destroys the enterprise of
    making recorded music. Fewer artists, less music. It is that simple. Less
    music on our airwaves, on the Internet, in the public square, any place you
    can think of where recorded music is played and enjoyed, including on your
    own Walkman when you jog or run. Piracy ends up hurting us all, music
    lovers and music creators alike.

    I ask my colleagues to watch this issue closely. We can help educate the
    public about both the illegality of piracy and its effect on our economy
    and our creative culture. It is our responsibility to do so. And we can
    encourage consumers to download music from legitimate online fee services.
    There are several sites that are up and running, and I encourage the
    industry to continue to work hard to improve their online products to meet
    consumer demand. There is no better time to reflect on the impact of
    American recorded music than during these holidays. When we hear Bing
    Crosby\'s ``White Christmas\'\' or Duke Ellington\'s ``Jingle Bells\'\' or Burl
    Ives\'s ``Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer,\'\' we are hearing not just another
    American Christmas classic but a part of America\'s creative legacy, the
    recorded music industry, one of our greatest exports to the world.

  10. #10

    Re: endless discussion about software license

    By the way - all of us have the ability to contact our congressmen and plead with them to push these issues to the forefront. We can\'t grumble about it if we aren\'t willing to do something about it. For what it\'s worth to you, I\'ve already written my congressmen and commented on Dr. Frists comments.


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