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Topic: Aria tunning incomplete ?

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  1. #1

    Question Aria tunning incomplete ?

    Hello everyone,

    I have just installed GPO 4 and I'd like to use a tunning of A=432Hz but it is not in the presets.
    Does anybody know how to do that?

    The scales are very good, I use Pythagorean tuning for medieval music, and quarter_comma_meantone for renaissance music, so it sounds similar to the scales used in the period. That's why I decided to buy Garritan Personal Orchestra with Aria Player. But I was surprised when I saw that it wasn't possible to tune the pitch as in a hardware tuner, hertz by hertz. Only have 435Hz as the closest to 432Hz that I wsih to use.

    I think that is a necessary implementation for the next update.

    Thanks for your help.

    Francis

  2. #2

    Re: Aria tunning incomplete ?

    Quote Originally Posted by francisgarciaruiz View Post
    Hello everyone,

    I have just installed GPO 4 and I'd like to use a tunning of A=432Hz but it is not in the presets.
    Does anybody know how to do that?

    The scales are very good, I use Pythagorean tuning for medieval music, and quarter_comma_meantone for renaissance music, so it sounds similar to the scales used in the period. That's why I decided to buy Garritan Personal Orchestra with Aria Player. But I was surprised when I saw that it wasn't possible to tune the pitch as in a hardware tuner, hertz by hertz. Only have 435Hz as the closest to 432Hz that I wsih to use.

    I think that is a necessary implementation for the next update.

    Thanks for your help.

    Francis
    You can edit the "d:\Program Files\Garritan\ARIA Player\GUI\gui_settings.xml" file and add your own center frequency.
    I'm not sure how the value field is to be calculated, but with some experiences I think you can get a good value.

  3. #3

    Re: Aria tunning incomplete ?

    Quote Originally Posted by briff View Post
    You can edit the "d:\Program Files\Garritan\ARIA Player\GUI\gui_settings.xml" file and add your own center frequency.
    I'm not sure how the value field is to be calculated, but with some experiences I think you can get a good value.
    Thank you briff !! Great information.
    I could edit the file. Now I have to find out how the calculation is made. I made something approximate, but I would like to do it exact.

    Thanks again,

    Francisco

  4. #4

    Re: Aria tunning incomplete ?

    Could anyone explain how this maths are calculated?


    <OptionItem name=" English pitchpipe 380 (1720)" value="-253.805" />
    <OptionItem name=" Handel fork1 409 (1780)" value="-126.483" />
    <OptionItem name=" Baroque 415" value="-101.271" />
    <OptionItem name=" Handel fork 422.5 (1740)" value="-70.2626" />
    <OptionItem name=" Dresden opera 423.2 (1815)" value="-67.3967" />
    <OptionItem name=" French Law 435 (1859)" value="-19.7857" />
    <OptionItem name=" British Phil 439 (1896)" value="-3.9391" />
    <OptionItem name=" International 440" value="0" />
    <OptionItem name=" European 442" value="7.85142" />
    <OptionItem name=" Germany, China 445" value="19.5622" />
    <OptionItem name=" La Scala in Milan 451 (18th)" value="42.7487" />


    I want to find out what value do I have to enter for A= 432
    I have tryed direct proportion but it doesn't fit.

    Thanks for your help!

    Francis

  5. #5
    Senior Member caher's Avatar
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    Connecticut
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    Re: Aria tunning incomplete ?

    The numbers are in cents(100th of a semitone) and are not proportional. They are logarithmic. The formula is:

    n= number of cents
    a= first frequency
    b= second frequency

    n=1200 * log2 (a/b)

    a very close approximation is:
    n=3986*log10(a/b)

    In the case for A=432 the number you are looking for is -31.7641

    Regards,
    Chris


    Quote Originally Posted by francisgarciaruiz View Post
    Could anyone explain how this maths are calculated?


    <OptionItem name=" English pitchpipe 380 (1720)" value="-253.805" />
    <OptionItem name=" Handel fork1 409 (1780)" value="-126.483" />
    <OptionItem name=" Baroque 415" value="-101.271" />
    <OptionItem name=" Handel fork 422.5 (1740)" value="-70.2626" />
    <OptionItem name=" Dresden opera 423.2 (1815)" value="-67.3967" />
    <OptionItem name=" French Law 435 (1859)" value="-19.7857" />
    <OptionItem name=" British Phil 439 (1896)" value="-3.9391" />
    <OptionItem name=" International 440" value="0" />
    <OptionItem name=" European 442" value="7.85142" />
    <OptionItem name=" Germany, China 445" value="19.5622" />
    <OptionItem name=" La Scala in Milan 451 (18th)" value="42.7487" />


    I want to find out what value do I have to enter for A= 432
    I have tryed direct proportion but it doesn't fit.

    Thanks for your help!

    Francis
    Last edited by caher; 09-01-2013 at 04:13 PM. Reason: spelling

  6. #6

    Re: Aria tuning incomplete ?

    Quote Originally Posted by caher View Post
    The numbers are in cents(100th of a semitone) and are not proportional. They are logarithmic. The formula is:

    n= number of cents
    a= first frequency
    b= second frequency

    n=1200 * log2 (a/b)

    a very close approximation is:
    n=3986*log10(a/b)

    In the case for A=432 the number you are looking for is -31.7641

    Regards,
    Chris
    Thanks for the formula, Chris.

    However, when I visited http://www.rapidtables.com/calc/math/Log_Calculator.htm
    which gives a way of calculating with Log2, I came up with -31.7666536332

    i.e. n=1200* Log2 (432/440)
    n=1200* Log2 (0.98181818181818181818181818181818) // As long a number as the MS calculator allows
    n=1200* -0.026472211361 // From the rapid tables web site calculator
    n=-31.7666536332

    Anyone care to check my workings please?

    Rounded to 4 decimal points for the gui_settings.xml file = -31.7667 (should be close enough).

    Accordingly here's the gui file "gui_settings.xml" suitably modified.
    To be found within the \Program Files\Garritan\ARIA Player\GUI directory.

    https://app.box.com/s/uo9kyir6eutlswt9o2i8

    As usual, please backup your original file before using this one.
    E&OE, etc. you use this file at your own risk, and all that stuff.

    Having added it and loaded first the stand alone an then the VST versions of ARIA it seems to work okay.
    I've labelled it as Pythagorean tuning (c.550 BC).
    I trust that suits people?

    Regards,
    John.
    Author of MIDI tutorials at http://midi-tutor.proboards.com/index.cgi

  7. #7

    Re: Aria tuning incomplete ?

    Quote Originally Posted by SysExJohn View Post
    Thanks for the formula, Chris.

    However, when I visited http://www.rapidtables.com/calc/math/Log_Calculator.htm
    which gives a way of calculating with Log2, I came up with -31.7666536332

    i.e. n=1200* Log2 (432/440)
    n=1200* Log2 (0.98181818181818181818181818181818) // As long a number as the MS calculator allows
    n=1200* -0.026472211361 // From the rapid tables web site calculator
    n=-31.7666536332

    Anyone care to check my workings please?

    Rounded to 4 decimal points for the gui_settings.xml file = -31.7667 (should be close enough).

    Accordingly here's the gui file "gui_settings.xml" suitably modified.
    To be found within the \Program Files\Garritan\ARIA Player\GUI directory.

    https://app.box.com/s/uo9kyir6eutlswt9o2i8

    As usual, please backup your original file before using this one.
    E&OE, etc. you use this file at your own risk, and all that stuff.

    Having added it and loaded first the stand alone an then the VST versions of ARIA it seems to work okay.
    I've labelled it as Pythagorean tuning (c.550 BC).
    I trust that suits people?

    Regards,
    John.
    Thank you very much Chris and John for you explanations!!

    I have edited my gui_settings.xml file and woks fine.

    Thanks so much.

    Francis

  8. #8
    Senior Member caher's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Connecticut
    Posts
    146

    Re: Aria tunning incomplete ?

    Hi Francis,

    I'm glad that this worked for you. I'm curious, exactly why are you using A=432? This is pretty unusual in my experience. When I worked as a tuner/technician back in the 70's modern pianos were often tuned to A=440 and I would occasionally be asked to tune to A=442 always in equal temperament. Harpsichords were usually tuned at A=440 if they were playing with modern instruments. If they were playing with original baroque instruments they were usually tuned to A=415 or A=417 in a number of different temperaments, including Young, Werkmeister, Kirnberger and whatever the artists could come up with. For Classical period original instruments the fortepiano was usually tuned to A=430, most often equal temperament but occasionally something else.

    Hi John,

    Looking at your numbers made me go back and check the accuracy of the Aria player. This turned out to be a very interesting exercise. Both of our figures measured A=432.0 by the Cleartune App in my IPad( a very nice app, BTW). I used the utility sine wave sample from the Garritan Pipe organ and measured the frequency of A=440 and it measured at 440.0. The Cleartune app measures within .1hz, which is close enough for any practical musical purpose, giving a one beat every 2.5 seconds at the double octave partial(pretty much imperceptible).

    Interestingly I got out my old tuning fork, which I had calibrated when I worked at S&S C&A department about 40 years ago and tested it. It came out to be A=439.9! It was used to tune thousands of concerts and recording sessions in NYC for more than a decade without issue. I left the trade almost 30 years ago because I was having hearing trouble and haven't tuned professionally since. My final tuning was for Benny Goodman's final recording session, of all things.

    Interesting exercise,

    Chris

  9. #9

    Re: Aria tunning incomplete ?

    Quote Originally Posted by caher View Post
    Hi Francis,

    I'm glad that this worked for you. I'm curious, exactly why are you using A=432? This is pretty unusual in my experience. When I worked as a tuner/technician back in the 70's modern pianos were often tuned to A=440 and I would occasionally be asked to tune to A=442 always in equal temperament. Harpsichords were usually tuned at A=440 if they were playing with modern instruments. If they were playing with original baroque instruments they were usually tuned to A=415 or A=417 in a number of different temperaments, including Young, Werkmeister, Kirnberger and whatever the artists could come up with. For Classical period original instruments the fortepiano was usually tuned to A=430, most often equal temperament but occasionally something else.


    Chris
    Hi Chris,
    Well, using A=432 HZ has been a kind of experiment. I play early music, medieval and renaissance cittern and citole. In those times each town or each musician had their own pitch reference, sometimes just the strings resistance, so I thought there aren't a reason to use the 440 today standard. Also I feel unconfortable with today's tendency to raise up the pitch, 442, 443, etc.. I prefer low tension strings so if I low a little the pitch my instruments sound more resonant.

    Well this said, I came to read something on internet about 432 Hz, there is a lot of noise and BS on the web about it, but something that captured my interest. G. Verdi was a defender of 432 Hz pitch and was against 440 as that is more stress for the singers and the music sounds more tense. There is also some esoteric reasons about the universal frecuency of vibration (if you choose to believe it). And there is some mathematical beauty as tuning at 432 and pythagorean temperament the frecuency of almost every note in the scale are integer. You can Google about it.

    Anyway, I decided to try it in a concert. We played early music with A=432Hz, Pythagorean temperament for medieval and Meantone for renaissance. I liked a lot how it sounded and it was a big success, audience liked a lot.

    Had it anything to do with the tuning? Who knows. But I am willing to keep searching on that way.

    Well, tell me what you think.

    Best regards,

    Francis

  10. #10

    Re: Aria tunning incomplete ?

    Quote Originally Posted by caher View Post
    Hi John,

    Looking at your numbers made me go back and check the accuracy of the Aria player. This turned out to be a very interesting exercise. Both of our figures measured A=432.0 by the Cleartune App in my IPad( a very nice app, BTW). I used the utility sine wave sample from the Garritan Pipe organ and measured the frequency of A=440 and it measured at 440.0. The Cleartune app measures within .1hz, which is close enough for any practical musical purpose, giving a one beat every 2.5 seconds at the double octave partial(pretty much imperceptible).
    Hi Chris,

    Interesting!
    I have a suspicion that, like the hardware instruments I used to use, the level of adjustment of the ARIA player is only to the nearest cent. Fractional values have no effect. Whether any rounding is done I wouldn't know. It would be interesting to find out, if you have the time, to try values of A = -30, -31 and -32 to see whether the results are measurable.

    As the Scots say "I hae me doots!" I'd love to be agreeably surprised though.

    BTW, for anybody else reading this, I've not yet found a MIDI instrument, hard or soft, that is accurate to fractional cents values. I have not done extensive research though.

    Interestingly I got out my old tuning fork, which I had calibrated when I worked at S&S C&A department about 40 years ago and tested it. It came out to be A=439.9! It was used to tune thousands of concerts and recording sessions in NYC for more than a decade without issue. I left the trade almost 30 years ago because I was having hearing trouble and haven't tuned professionally since. My final tuning was for Benny Goodman's final recording session, of all things.

    Interesting exercise,

    Chris
    Again interesting!
    And, I take it, nobody noticed nor complained that the piano wasn't in tune?
    Or could it be that, in 30 years, the fork has changed frequency gradually over the years?
    I suspect that the latter may be the case.

    Did you tune ET or a close approximation, e.g. Broadwood best?
    I suspect that there are many pianos out there not tuned perfectly ET, even when just retuned.
    But then the discussion of 'temperaments' is a whole different 'kettle du poissons!'
    Or should that be 'can of worms'?

    Regards,
    John.
    Author of MIDI tutorials at http://midi-tutor.proboards.com/index.cgi

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