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Topic: feedback wanted on demo

  1. #1

    feedback wanted on demo

    We did this GOS demo for one of our clients;
    We need feedback on the balance and instruments used.

    Michiel Post

  2. #2
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    New York City

    Re: feedback wanted on demo

    A few comments:

    I find the lower range of the strings very unconvincing. Also, they seem to be accompanied by an unnatural \"fuzzy\" noise particularly at higher volumes. I like the builds in the strings but I hate the trills. They are far too synthetic. I think that a musician should fade into a trill more naturally. Here it seems like the trill has little to do with the notes preceding it. I think they should blend more. Also I would add more atmosphere to the recording. It sounds to me like there is too little reverb. When I listen to music, particularly pieces such as this I like at least a little concert hall effect. This sounds more like a practice room. Finally, I would adjust the accuracy of the timing of the notes played plus or minus a small amount here and there to give the illusion of individuals at work. Also, I would adjust other playing characteristics such as transition styles and bowing techniques (if such a thing were possible in a sampler). Right now I think it sounds too exact. It would be an interesting project to design a program that could control certain instruments as if a particular personality were in control of them, adding this personality in quasi-random, yet realistic intervals to simulate what a real person might do. Of course you\'d run into the same problems that a conductor does in that some of these personalities wouldn\'t work and play well with others. But we are looking for realism are we not? This kind of programming would no doubt take a very long time, be very complicated and expensive, but the only alternative I see in order to achieve greater realism is to adjust the notes manually one at a time. I think my ideas may be a bit off the deep end at this point so I\'ll refrain from adding more. I hope at least some of this is useful.

  3. #3

    Re: feedback wanted on demo

    It sounds to synthetic, as if it comes from a cheap keyboard/synthesizer or wavetable from a cheap soundcart.

  4. #4

    Re: feedback wanted on demo

    Thanks for the feedback.
    We did this demo for an ultra-classical client; needless to say they didn\'t like the idea we used \" digital strings\" . However, after several passes (with some extra reverb and added expression) they melted and finally became friendlier.
    I have compared this demo with several real recordings and there is still a world of difference, specially in the overall \"feel\". Not so much the sound.


  5. #5

    Re: feedback wanted on demo

    Great comments, Temps.

    Would it be possible to apply a \'random quantization - set by 0-100% effect\' in the sequencing program? I realize this may be like shooting in the dark, but could be an option to manually altering each and every note. What say ye?


  6. #6

    Re: feedback wanted on demo

    To me the big difference between this and a normal performance would be the lack of expression in the sustains, attacks and the relentless beat. It sound like it was played on a keyboard and highly quantized. The attacks and articulations also never vary. Just performing the parts with a breath controller would go a long way to improving it, although it would help to play with tempo and get some push and pull happening. Slight delays or ritards before major beats can help in places.

  7. #7

    Re: feedback wanted on demo

    I think Duncan\'s close. But I think there\'s also a problem with attacks. Some of these notes simply have to have a stronger attack. The phrasing isn\'t carefully shaped and the soprano line gets lost at crucial times (beginning of phrases). The ornaments don\'t come out the way they should. There should be more push/pull in the tempo. I do like that we\'re not saying the string sound is completely off the mark and the issues are more performance related.

    Steve Chandler

  8. #8

    Re: feedback wanted on demo

    Whether it\'s my sound card(s) I\'ve tried it through 2 different ones or whatever,

    The playing, sequencing is OK but the sounds are quite frankly not cutting the mustard.

    Maybe I\'m super critical but as yet (yes there are exceptions) there is little in whatever I have heard by anyone using anything on GS that says to me \"Wow, orgasmn, that\'s what I\'ll give my proverbials for\"

    In retrospect and in ancient technologies as they have been, I\'ve listened to the most awful **** imaginable and been convinced that it was the real thing and I\'ve listened to the so called \"ultra\" and my ears have said \"load of crap\"

    So in the end it is always subjective

    Having diatribed above as is my wont due credit must always be given based on the situation at hand. Regardless of my personal likes and dislikes, we are all making an effort to produce something that is valid in either a musical context or otherwise.

    I may not like a composer, an arrangist, a sound samplists offerings, but that does not mean to say that the are in any way invalid.

    After all, what I like is different to what you like, what gets my juices flowing is not what gets Joe Soaps.......

    So, this is the wonder of music and its far protuberances...........

    Deo Gratias that it is so, because we would all be otherwise listening to whatever the media tells us to listen to.

    Long live big Brother........ ? Bollocks...! Big Brother is dead as long as individuality reigns

  9. #9

    Re: feedback wanted on demo

    I think its an ok problem - but it still adresses the same problem we see over and over again. The instruments simply dont breath. In this case I would think that there needs to be a better ambience feeling in the reverb - and by all means more dynamics in its playing. If your client is ultraclassical - I am sure these elements would clearly stand out as problems. There is a little too much \"keyboard/midi\" feeling over it. You can hear the strings being played on a keyboard. Breathcontrol is one make to make them more articulated.

    But this is a good piece to mockup. Any sample library that could do a convincing Air Mockup - would sell me. The piece is hard because its emotional. Alot of dynamics to let it breathe.

    Love - Chris

  10. #10

    Re: feedback wanted on demo

    Ah, yes, the \"Air on the G-string\" (not what you may be thinking, though, it\'s Bach).

    Not a bad interpretation, but quite obviously sampled or synth instrumentation. So, as music, good stuff, but as sampling, I\'m not sure.

    The problem with the current state of string, woodwind, and horn sampling is that it is close enough to the real thing to sound like an ATTEMPT to be the real thing. That has its problems, because the ear starts listening critically. The poorer sampling technology of days gone by was so off the mark that no one even thought the sample was the real thing. So no issue. That\'s my only real \"criticism\" of this orchestral sound, and the criticism applies to all current samples of orchestral instruments, I suppose. Lots of work to be done, but I\'m sure that eventually the technology WILL prevail, as it has so brilliantly with the piano and with other percussive instrumentation generally.

    J Grant http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/42/john_lewis_grant.html

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