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Topic: An invitation to help Garritan users at the Finale Forum

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  1. #1

    An invitation to help Garritan users at the Finale Forum

    This morning, Fabio started a thread about a problem he's having with the Finale 2014 demo and Kontakt Player 2:

    Finale 2014 and KP2

    That sent me looking around to see if I could find any helpful info. As of today, 11/8/14, the new Finale has been out for only a few days, so posts online are only beginning to appear regarding various issues users are having with the new release. I couldn't find an answer for Fabio's question, but in my reply on his thread I encouraged him to post his specific question at the Finale Forum.

    Now I've looked through various new threads at Finale, and I can see that it would be helpful if the Garritan users here at our Forum could join in with helping out at the Finale Forum if they haven't already. Users over there Really need input from the knowledgeable Finale users we have here on our Forum.

    Here's a thread, for instance, which desperately needs input - I am shocked to see that this conversation thread is about the supposed "mystery" of getting a good volume balance between Garritan instruments in a score. One user says he's been "tinkering with this for years" - just getting the balance he wants. -- !! -- People on the thread are struggling to do it all with dynamics, customizing Human Playback etc--when all they need to do is grab the faders in ARIA and set the balance they want.--

    ARIA volume "problems"

    I'm not sure if this is a new issue or not, but on another thread there's discussion about Garritan instruments not loading properly because of the confusion over choosing Program or Bank:

    Finale 2014 and multiple ARIA Players

    Folks need your help there! If you visit and help out, there could be topics for you to bring back and post here also.

    Randy

  2. #2

    Re: An invitation to help Garritan users at the Finale Forum

    I would join that forum but I personally think that "Mr. Tinkering for years" and "people" like him are pond scum, and I don't need to associate with "people" like that in my life. It is unfortunate though because their questions are quite simple to solve.

    Concerning balance, in Finale it's a little bit different than just grabbing Aria's sliders. The sliders that a user needs to grab are the ones under "studio view." Those sliders will control Aria's also. If you just move Aria's sliders and not studio view's then the Aria sliders will just go back to the position that they were before. Finale comes with some Garritan samples that are lower in volume in compared to if a user buys the full GPO4. The Garritan samples for Finale are low in volume to prevent distortion. When someone loads full GPO4 sounds with the ones that come with Finale you hear a huge difference in volume. I always use GPO4 with sounds such as euphonium section from the Finale Garritan sounds. To hear any of the default sounds for Finale such as the euphonium section I need to move the slider from the studio view all the way up to 127 and the dynamic expression one volume higher in the score. So if you want trombone player 1 from GPO4 and euphonium section from Finale to blend perfectly you need to place trombone at a mf and euphonium section at a f. And if you want a perfect blend then you need to go to "human playback custom style" and click off "soften basses" and "detection of solo instruments."
    ~Rodney

  3. #3

    Re: An invitation to help Garritan users at the Finale Forum

    Looks like MakeMusic need to get their Garritan forum sorted sooner rather than later.
    Michael
    Patience is a virtue, sensitivity is a gift

  4. #4

    Re: An invitation to help Garritan users at the Finale Forum

    And concerning Garritan instruments loading is not a Garritan problem but a human problem. They need to make sure the channels in vst instruments line up with the channels in the instrument list.
    ~Rodney

  5. #5

    Re: An invitation to help Garritan users at the Finale Forum

    Quote Originally Posted by composingatnight View Post
    I would join that forum but I personally think that "Mr. Tinkering for years" and "people" like him are pond scum, and I don't need to associate with "people" like that in my life. It is unfortunate though because their questions are quite simple to solve.

    Concerning balance, in Finale it's a little bit different than just grabbing Aria's sliders. The sliders that a user needs to grab are the ones under "studio view."...
    --!! "Pond scum"-- why so angry, Rodney? You even call them "people" in quotes - ?? I was surprised to see that thread, going on and on about the simplest of things, but it didn't make me hate the people posting, it made me alarmed that they didn't know some real basics.

    Thanks for explaining how exactly the ARIA faders are controlled in Finale. That's analogous to using the MIDI track controls in Sonar to control ARIA's faders. CC7 is the behind-the-scenes MIDI Controller at work there - I figured one didn't just grab the ARIA controls themselves, What I meant in my earlier post was to move whatever controls there are to set the instrument balances.

    But--"pond scum"--Maybe you could elaborate on why you're so disgusted with those users?

    Randy

  6. #6

    Re: An invitation to help Garritan users at the Finale Forum

    I am disgusted with that particular user, it has nothing to do with the thread on the finale forum or the finale forum. I tried joining his own forum once and just found his forum full of the most bitter, hateful, jealous, and tactless "composers" I have ever met in my entire life.
    ~Rodney

  7. #7

    Re: An invitation to help Garritan users at the Finale Forum

    Quote Originally Posted by composingatnight View Post
    I am disgusted with that particular user...
    Ah, I see. I'm glad I asked - I thought there Had to be something beyond what's on that Finale thread that was bugging you. Thanks for the reply, Rod.

    Randy

  8. #8

    Re: An invitation to help Garritan users at the Finale Forum

    I personally think that "Mr. Tinkering for years" and "people" like him are pond scum, and I don't need to associate with "people" like that in my life. It is unfortunate though because their questions are quite simple to solve.
    Hi all - Just reading Randy's thread about Finale.
    Apologies if this is off topic, but I have sympathy for "Mr. Tinkering for years."

    As I think I've mentioned in previous posts, I discovered & bought GPO 4 about a year ago & have found it a fantastic & creatively enabling tool. It has changed my life. But, at this late stage in my life, getting to grips with this new technology is an uphill learning curve (which I don't mind at all).

    My present problem is (getting back to 'Mr. Tinkering') how is one to know which of the many volume controls to use & in what order. Is there one specific control used for the final mix? It is so confusing.

    There are volume faders on the ARIA UI/on my DAW Track Control Panel (REAPER)/on the Mixer panel/on individual items in the Midi editor (PRV) and on Velocity & Volume/Expression controllers in the CC lane.

    Is there a good article or book to help out on how to adjust the volume levels of individual instruments in a project, in progress & at the final mix?

  9. #9

    Re: An invitation to help Garritan users at the Finale Forum

    Hi, Jack - Good to hear from you.

    I'll break that down for you:

    There are three types of volume. Once you understand the differences between them, concepts on how to use them will soon seem logical and easy to you. Truly.

    1) The basic potential volume for a virtual instrument.

    2) The dynamic performance volume for an instrument which can be fluctuating throughout an entire piece.

    3) Audio volume of the total of 1 and 2.

    The controls:

    The sliders in ARIA's mixer control the potential volume of each instrument, BUT the MIDI faders in your recording program control ARIA's faders. That's the way it is in Sonar, and though I don't use Reaper, I'm rather sure it's the same there. To avoid confusion, just use your program's faders. Set the balances of your instruments with those controls - You'll see that the faders in ARIA have been moved and set. If you try to use ARIA's sliders directly, you'll be frustrated, because the settings in Reaper's faders will over ride them.

    Once you have that approximate balance between instruments set, you can leave it. If you need to re-think the balance later, you can always adjust it. Clarinet consistently too loud? Just pull the appropriate Reaper slider down.

    The default levels of instruments in ARIA are out of balance. You'll always need to pull some things down, move others up. Just keep hitting notes and auditioning the levels, either on your keyboard or ARIA's, until you think it sounds like a good starting point. MIDI Controller #7 is what's actually being used for those ARIA and MIDI sliders.

    PERFORMANCE VOLUME - This is what brings the virtual instruments alive. I hope you're using a keyboard, because it makes things incredibly faster and easier. Record either CC1 with your Mod Wheel or CC11 with a foot pedal, performing the volume fluctuations of each instrument. This is the data that shows up in the PRV and the CC lanes. Naturally you can edit by hand as much as you want. If you used the Mod Wheel, what you recorded will display in the lane for CC1.

    Audio volume - The simpler way of working is to only work with the MIDI, leaving the audio tracks which are connected to ARIA at their default, optimum levels. In Reaper's mixer, all the audio tracks you're using go to a Master bus - and you need to monitor that to make sure you're not going into the red, adjust the audio faders as needed. You could simply lower the Master's fader, or you could adjust each of the audio tracks down a bit.

    The more complicated way of working is to bounce all your MIDI tracks to solid audio, and then working even more with volume, recording automation for the audio faders to hone your mix even more.

    You listed several things - But the list isn't as long as you think, and the process isn't as complicated as you think.

    Re-cap: Set the relative balance of your instruments using the MIDI track faders in Reaper. Record MIDI performance data for each instrument and edit the resulting data in the PRV. When you go to mix, be sure to use a Master fader and make sure it doesn't go into the red.

    That's about it! You don't need a book how "how to adjust the volume levels" - you just need to understand those types of volume I've explained, and then use your ears to mold each project.

    Randy

  10. #10

    Re: An invitation to help Garritan users at the Finale Forum

    My goodness Randy!!!

    Thank you SO much for the guide.

    It is just what I was looking for. Very precise & informative.

    I am going to print it out & have it in full view from now on as I work.

    Thank you very much for taking the time.

    PERFORMANCE VOLUME - This is what brings the virtual instruments alive. I hope you're using a keyboard, because it makes things incredibly faster and easier. Record either CC1 with your Mod Wheel or CC11 with a foot pedal, performing the volume fluctuations of each instrument. This is the data that shows up in the PRV and the CC lanes. Naturally you can edit by hand as much as you want.
    Yes, I am using a keyboard for input. I play the various instrument parts & record the Midi, but I don't have a Mod Wheel or foot pedal for Expression, so I do my editing manually in the CC lane afterwards. Anyway my keyboard skills aren't good enough yet to allow me to do all that stuff as I play along!

    The more complicated way of working is to bounce all your MIDI tracks to solid audio, and then working even more with volume, recording automation for the audio faders to hone your mix even more.
    When you say 'bounce all your MIDI tracks to solid audio' do you mean convert the MIDI into audio (with an audio wave form)? Sorry to be so dumb, Randy.

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