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Topic: Post Bosendorfer - My first impressions

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  1. #1

    Re: Post Bosendorfer - My first impressions

    Oh and just one more thing before I forget...

    The Steinway Chris Nocolaides demo sounds a little lumpier than the Bosendorfer version. There also seems to be more mechanical noise present. Overall, it appears slightly less polished than the Bosendorfer? Am I coming to the wrong conclusions here?

    Steve

  2. #2
    Senior Member Bruce A. Richardson's Avatar
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    Re: Post Bosendorfer - My first impressions

    Originally posted by sjduck:
    Bruce - thanks for replying.

    I now realise that I am definately a \'dry\' man (!), in that I\'m looking for the pianist\'s prespective in a piano sample. I\'m thinking of buying the Grandioso Steinway next but before I do, I need to clear a few things up...

    1) One of the demos on the Post site reveals a rather uneven amount of noise with certain samples across the keyboard. Is the Steinway as noise free as the new Bosendorfer?

    2) I remember someone on this forum complaining about the relatively \'dull\' tone of the Post Steinway. Is this the case and if so, is it the result of noise reduction? Whatever noise reduction has been used on the Bosendorfer passes my test. How does it compare with the Bosendorfer in this respect? Brigher/duller?

    3) Whilst the Post Bosendorfer has lovely sympathetic resonances, I want more! Again, how does the Steinway compare in this respect?

    4) Any other comments? I\'m interested in pros and cons.

    Many thanks,
    Steve
    <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">There are a few cases of uneven noise, although I have not found that to be a problem. In fact, it exists in many libraries--especially where notes have been pitch shifted to cover for undesirable samples, etc. Those always stick out like a sore thumb to me. The imaging and resonance changes along with the pitch shift, and really throws me...especially since I really tend to play very \"thin\" on the piano and expose that kind of timbral shift. This defect tends to be hidden better in thicker/faster playing. You\'d hear it more in Bach than Rach.

    I don\'t think the Post Steinway is dull at all. It\'s brigher than the ArtVist Malmsjo, for instance. Not quite as bright as the Bardstown Bosie. It will take EQ very well, and I guess I\'d describe it as intimate but not \"close.\"

    I have used it a lot. I use it in a solo context when I want a pretty pure and immediate sound. I use it in an ensemble context when I want the piano to be straight up the middle and have lots of tone in the middle tessitura. I probably wouldn\'t use it for chunks of big two-fisted chords, because it will want to fill a lot of space in that capacity--for that type of playing I\'m more inclined to use the Bardstown Bosie, which leaves some space in the middle with that kind of playing.

    I hope that helps. I have found that it\'s pretty difficult to recommend pianos because people have such widely varying expectations. In short, I\'d just go back to my typical response that I look at the various piano libraries as variations on perspective and tone, and that there are many very nice ones that work in many different scenarios. Personally, I wouldn\'t pick the Post Bosie for jazz, because I like a more intimate perspective there.

  3. #3
    Senior Member Bruce A. Richardson's Avatar
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    Re: Post Bosendorfer - My first impressions

    Originally posted by sjduck:
    Oh and just one more thing before I forget...

    The Steinway Chris Nocolaides demo sounds a little lumpier than the Bosendorfer version. There also seems to be more mechanical noise present. Overall, it appears slightly less polished than the Bosendorfer? Am I coming to the wrong conclusions here?

    Steve
    <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">I wouldn\'t call it less polished. I\'d call it a LOT more exposed. The studio used is a converted ice house with thick insulated walls, with another room built inside it. Much like the Vienna Project, the kinds of noises that were problematic were stomach growls, clothing rustles, etc.

    The issue, of course, is that in a regular track, these sounds become such an organic part of the whole that we don\'t \"hear\" them. In a sample library, they\'re only triggered with an individual note. I have personally heard NO piano library that doesn\'t have \"warts\" in one place or another, or if the warts were removed, they were replaced with pitch shifts, which then become a different kind of \"wart.\"

    The sonic profile of a piano is just a major challenge on that level. You\'d almost need a human-free environment, and even then you\'re dealing with an instrument that\'s a huge machine with something of a mind of its own...not to mention instrument-specific idiosyncracies that exist in the best and most well maintained pianos.

    I guess the short version here is it\'s unrealistic to expect a perfect evenness in a sampled piano (perhaps even undesirable), and the amount of reflection in the Post Bosie tends to mask what the recording environment for the Steinway really exposes.

  4. #4

    Re: Post Bosendorfer - My first impressions

    Hi Steve+Bruce,

    Thanks A 1.000.000!

  5. #5

    Re: Post Bosendorfer - My first impressions

    Thank you Michiel for putting all the hard work in. As far as I can tell, every piano you record gets better and better. I suppose that\'s experience for you. Honestly though, I can\'t fault your Bosendorfer. What I find interesting is that the wet samples (which prompted me to buy it in the first place) are probably not what I\'ll end up using.

    I think you\'ve managed to capture the classical audience perspective with the wet and the piano player\'s perspective with the dry. Having the best of both worlds side by side has shown me that for jazz, I prefer a dryer sample. Well done and \'dank u!\'

    By the way, if it\'s not a trade secret, how do the distances of the micing on the two instruments compare?

    Thank you Bruce for your helpful observations. I find your point about relections masking natural uneveness quite facinating. I believe the Steinway D has quite a lot of mechanical noise associated with it, so the combination of the two is likely to result in a slightly less polished sample. However, I think once my bass player, drummer and singer start up around me, nobody\'s likely to hear any of these inperfections!

    Thanks,
    Steve

  6. #6

    Re: Post Bosendorfer - My first impressions

    Hi Steve,

    Chris Nicolaides here! Just to say that the demo Michiel has on his website was done with the original Beta version. He has since \'cleaned up\' the samples and whilst not as clean as the Bos, by virtue of being closer mic\'d I guess, it is more than acceptable, even for solo stuff.

    The beauty of the Steinway D is that you can make it sound warm or bright depending on which performance you use, and it responds so well to reverb. Bruce has told you just about everything else you need to know! In fact, thanks Bruce for all the useful info you share with everyone here. Much appreciated.

    BTW, I again fooled 2 out of 3 professional musicians/producers with a mock up from a movie I wrote a few cues for. One was the real thing, a Fazioli in Sony\'s London studio, the other the Post Steinway D. Makes me laugh everytime!!

    Chris

  7. #7

    Post Bosendorfer - My first impressions

    Hi all

    I received the new Bosy in the post today. Thanks Michiel - this was speedy and efficient.

    I don\'t have a lot of time to be detailed right now but here are a few personal observations:

    1) The piano and the sampling are incredibly even. This is probably the most even instrument across the keyboard that I\'ve played.

    2) The tuning is spot on.

    3) The samples are not noisy in any way. (Although I think I heard an artifact on a low Eb earlier. Will check on that - although it was minor.)

    4) The velocity scaling is excellent.

    5) The ambience is a significant part of the sound. The Wet samples really are wet beyond belief!. Playing the wet samples makes me feel like I\'m playing with 50 ft arms from the balcony. [img]images/icons/shocked.gif[/img] I doubt that I\'ll be able to use them in my jazz context, unless we\'re doing a really ambient ballad. Even the release samples are heavy. As a result, my favourite patch is the Dry 8 Layer No Release Sample, which really is excellent.

    6) From the MP3 demos at Michiel\'s site, the Bosy doesn\'t appear to have quite as many sympathetic resonances as his Steinway. However, the timbre is sublimely smooth and evolving.

    7) I\'m a happy customer. This has been a real eye opener and I\'m looking forward to playing the sample again and again.

    I would really like to talk to someone with the Post Steinway D at some point. Who here has it?!

    Thanks,
    Steve

  8. #8
    Senior Member Bruce A. Richardson's Avatar
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    Re: Post Bosendorfer - My first impressions

    I have it...fire away.

  9. #9

    Re: Post Bosendorfer - My first impressions

    Bruce - thanks for replying.

    I now realise that I am definately a \'dry\' man (!), in that I\'m looking for the pianist\'s prespective in a piano sample. I\'m thinking of buying the Grandioso Steinway next but before I do, I need to clear a few things up...

    1) One of the demos on the Post site reveals a rather uneven amount of noise with certain samples across the keyboard. Is the Steinway as noise free as the new Bosendorfer?

    2) I remember someone on this forum complaining about the relatively \'dull\' tone of the Post Steinway. Is this the case and if so, is it the result of noise reduction? Whatever noise reduction has been used on the Bosendorfer passes my test. How does it compare with the Bosendorfer in this respect? Brigher/duller?

    3) Whilst the Post Bosendorfer has lovely sympathetic resonances, I want more! Again, how does the Steinway compare in this respect?

    4) Any other comments? I\'m interested in pros and cons.

    Many thanks,
    Steve

  10. #10

    Re: Post Bosendorfer - My first impressions

    Ahh, thanks for clearing that one up Chris. It raises an interesting point, though. As potential customers only have the demos to go on, surely those demos should reflect the shipping version of the product!?

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