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Topic: Midi vs Audio

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  1. #1
    Senior Member tedvanya's Avatar
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    Midi vs Audio

    Not wishing to bring up the often discussed bouncing Midi to Audio tracks. I think even Randy got to the point of not recommending it, but some time my work cries for it. and I tried to do it with my recently posted piece "Spring will come". On this, Randy gave me advises to use more of the available db range, among other comments. Following normalization I discovered several faults with my work, mostly mixing and balancing problems, and I tried to bounce my 16 Midi tracks to 16 audio tracks. No problem at all, I had my 16 audio tracks, deleted the plug-ins,all the midi tracks and the corresponding original audio tracks and pushed play.
    After a 30 second hesitation playback started but stopped after only two bars.
    Exporting the project to ONE audio file the playback of the resulting .wav file was not a problem, neither is there a problem when importing the .wav file back into Sonar on ONE audio track; it plays back fine.
    My setup in MIDI is 16 tracks of midi ( one instance of Gplayer and one of Aria ) feeding 16 corresponding audio tracks and 2 buses. No problems in playback and all these were deleted before trying playback of the 16 "bounced" audio tracks.
    What puzzles me, why I have no problem doing MIDI-PLUGINS-AUDIO playback fine, but overload my laptop trying to play back straight AUDIO on SONAR?

    Ted

  2. #2
    Senior Member tedvanya's Avatar
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    Re: Midi vs Audio

    Please ignore my thread.
    For the benefit of people who would try the same, after bouncing to audio, and deleting all plugins, Midi and original audio tracks, you have to save your (now all audio) project and open it into a clean sequencing program ( for me Sonar X1), otherwise you will overload. Do not ask me why after deleting you have to save and restart, I am not computer wise. (Obviously not wise at all!)

    My apologies.

    Ted

    Please ignore this post also because I am wrong and look at Randy's answer to me and learn from him, not from me.....

    Ted

  3. #3

    Re: Midi vs Audio

    Hi, Ted - No reason to ignore your thread - It's always a good topic, and I have info for you that will fix your problem. Your solution in the second post isn't correct. Read on:

    Quote Originally Posted by tedvanya View Post
    ...even Randy got to the point of not recommending it...
    Bouncing to audio before mixing is still the only way I work, Ted. I just stopped recommending it because it turned out to involve a steeper learning curve for newbies than I had realized, and I was sorry to see people on the Forum struggling so much with it.

    But, I'm ready to help out again, so glad you brought it up.

    You're making several mistakes. Let's see if I can make this as easy to understand as possible. I'll insert replies into your text:

    Quote Originally Posted by tedvanya View Post
    ...I had my 16 audio tracks, deleted the plug-ins, all the midi tracks and the corresponding original audio tracks and pushed play.
    NEVER delete all of that. You just destroyed your project file. There's no need to save another version, you want everything in the one project file.

    SO - Instead of deleting, you simply turn the soft synths off. Look at the synth rack and you'll see the button that either disconnects or reconnects a synth. Once disconnected, it's using no CPU.

    Mute the MIDI tracks them, Archive them, then using the Track Manager (my short cut is "M"), HIDE them from view.

    When you've taken those steps, all of your computer power is now going to be used just for the audio, and on your screen, the only thing you'll see are the 16 audio tracks.

    Quote Originally Posted by tedvanya View Post
    ...What puzzles me, why I have no problem doing MIDI-PLUGINS-AUDIO playback fine, but overload my laptop trying to play back straight AUDIO on SONAR?...
    I whittled the quote down to cut to the chase of YOUR MAIN PROBLEM. I can absolutely guarantee when you do this correctly, you'll have no problems:

    ---When you set up your project in Sonar, you need to choose the "Per-project" option in the pop-up. Your entire project will be kept in one location, one folder. Look at that project folder and you'll see there's a sub-folder labeled "Audio." As audio starts becoming part of your project, that's where the tracks will be located. Repeating - You'll have a "My Song" folder. Inside that folder is the .cwp project file AND the audio folder for the project.

    If you don't do that, all you'll get is the horrible problems you're describing, with the project taking forever to start playing, then sputtering and stopping. The project is too fragmented, and your computer can't keep up with having to access the remote folder where the audio went.

    ALWAYS use "per-project."


    So - your second post is completely incorrect, and it would be great if you could edit it to not confuse people:

    Quote Originally Posted by tedvanya View Post
    ...For the benefit of people who would try the same, after bouncing to audio, and deleting all plugins, Midi and original audio tracks, you have to save your (now all audio) project and open it...otherwise you will overload...
    If you've followed the above, you'll see now that all that is an unnecessary work around:

    KEEP all of your project's components in one project file - just don't waste resources and screen space by having these activated and visible when they don't need to be.

    ALWAYS set up your projects so that associated audio files are kept inside the master folder for the project.

    That'll do ya!

    Randy

  4. #4
    Senior Member tedvanya's Avatar
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    Re: Midi vs Audio

    You should have more pleasant things to do on a Sunday than to answer my ramblings, but you are who you are and I am again and again grateful.
    I am OK now with this project, plenty to do..
    In the future, since I have seen the light, I WILL ALWAYS work from bounced audio.
    When I am trying to find "per project", I can not see it in Sonar X1. If I open a new project, I see " Save project audio in it's own folder" , or, if I save an existing project I see "copy all audio with project", which are not the same as what you are telling me.
    No, I was more cautious, before I deleted everything, I saved it and then did my deletes, so I am safe.
    There is still one problem with the process of bouncing (for me):
    I select edit/select all, then bounce setting to TRACKS, and no matter I am trying, the target suggestion is a new track, ignoring the 16 audio tracks which I created with Aria and GPlayer, starting the bounce at track 33 on my 16 Midi track 16 audio track project. Although you are not saying it, it is implied that when YOU bounce a project, the target tracks are the ones you created with your plugins, or am I wrong again? Why can't I make them the target tracks?
    I refuse to thank you for your kindness because I said so many thanks to you that it becomes a "so what". But I think you know my intentions.

    I'll correct my correction right now, directing any interested person to look at your reply to me.

    Ted

  5. #5

    Re: Midi vs Audio

    Hello again, Ted - Never worry about me. Dropping by once in awhile throughout the day, even a Sunday, can give me a nice little break, responding to one or two things. It's my pleasure.

    And never doubt I appreciate the "thanks." That's my reward. Stop thanking me - I might not respond anymore!

    Quote Originally Posted by tedvanya View Post
    ...When I am trying to find "per project", I can not see it in Sonar X1. If I open a new project, I see " Save project audio in it's own folder" , or, if I save an existing project I see "copy all audio with project"
    More precisely, the "per project" is something you set in your Preferences. That done, you will automatically have projects set up correctly. Sonar's "Help" (upper right corner) is an especially helpful Help file. Search for any phrase like "per project" and you're apt to get exactly the info you need.

    The options you're listing, "save project audio" and "copy all audo" are the ones that appear in the pop-up dialogue. If you have the "per project" option selected in Preferences, "save project audio" will be what's already checked. That's what you want--Project audio is saved in its own sub-folder of your project's master folder.

    The reason that your project played OK after you did the round about routine of saving it all again, was because you selected "copy all audio"--which is definitely what you always want to do when moving a project. Because you selected that, the audio sub-folder was created in the new version, and Sonar could then play the tracks without getting stuck.

    Quote Originally Posted by tedvanya View Post
    ...I was more cautious, before I deleted everything, I saved it and then did my deletes...
    But don't do that. Just turn off your ARIAs, mute and archive your tracks, hide what you no longer need from view. No need for multiple versions of the project.

    Quote Originally Posted by tedvanya View Post
    ...There is still one problem...I select edit/select all, then bounce setting to TRACKS, and no matter I am trying, the target suggestion is a new track, ignoring the 16 audio tracks which I created with Aria and GPlayer, starting the bounce at track 33...
    That is correct. You want the tracks to appear starting on a new track. Those audio tracks you're referring to are different - Those are the audio conduits coming from ARIA. They conduct audio, but they aren't for the waveform audio you'll have after bouncing. Even if you could bounce to those tracks, you would be screwing up your ARIA connections if you ever wanted to return to working on MIDI at some point during the project.

    If later on you want to replace a track, and so you already have a "Instrument One" track - just delete the old audio take you don't want, and when you go to bounce that same instrument again, you Will have that same (now empty) track available as a destination. Look in the bounce dialogue, you'll see that available as a destination. If you're working with a template, you can have tracks bounce into existing (but empty) tracks.

    I think I've covered your new questions!

    Randy

  6. #6
    Senior Member tedvanya's Avatar
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    Re: Midi vs Audio

    Thank you.
    (Yes, you answered all, and I am working on it.)
    Thank you again, (My god, I promise to always thank you and it will not be enough for your generosity and knowledge.)

    Ted

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