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Topic: Bosendorfer w/orchestral

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  1. #1

    Bosendorfer w/orchestral

    Of the top three pianos out now (PMI Steinway/Bosen and Kip\'s Bosen), can anyone recommend the best piano for playing (and mixing) with orchestral? I am using PMI Steinway on a current project but at times it get\'s \'buried\' in the mix. I have tried a number of \'subtractive\' EQ things but still would like the Piano to cut through better.

    (Bruce - what do you use in this application?)

    Thanks in advance.

    Rob

  2. #2
    Senior Member Bruce A. Richardson's Avatar
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    Re: Bosendorfer w/orchestral

    Originally posted by Rob Elliott:
    Of the top three pianos out now (PMI Steinway/Bosen and Kip\'s Bosen), can anyone recommend the best piano for playing (and mixing) with orchestral? I am using PMI Steinway on a current project but at times it get\'s \'buried\' in the mix. I have tried a number of \'subtractive\' EQ things but still would like the Piano to cut through better.

    (Bruce - what do you use in this application?)

    PMI Bosendorfer Wet 8 layer with releases. In fact, I\'m doing a piece with it right now.

    Have you tried the distant version of the PMI Steinway though? It\'s not as reflective as the Bosendorfer but still has a lot of distance.

    Thanks in advance.

    Rob
    <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">

  3. #3

    Re: Bosendorfer w/orchestral

    Well, that just about settles it.

  4. #4

    Re: Bosendorfer w/orchestral

    Bruce,

    Excuse my ignorance, but will the \'distant\' Steinway mixed with the \'close mic\' help me \'cut through\' the mix with orchestral.

    Thanks in advance.

    Rob

  5. #5
    Senior Member Bruce A. Richardson's Avatar
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    Re: Bosendorfer w/orchestral

    Originally posted by Rob Elliott:
    Bruce,

    Excuse my ignorance, but will the \'distant\' Steinway mixed with the \'close mic\' help me \'cut through\' the mix with orchestral.

    Thanks in advance.

    Rob
    <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">It could. I think you\'ll just have to try it in your mix and see. EQ might also help you out, thinning out low mids and lows to get a little more bite on the attack transients.

  6. #6
    Senior Member Bruce A. Richardson's Avatar
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    Re: Bosendorfer w/orchestral

    Originally posted by Bruce A. Richardson:
    </font><blockquote><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><hr /><font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Originally posted by Rob Elliott:
    Bruce,

    Excuse my ignorance, but will the \'distant\' Steinway mixed with the \'close mic\' help me \'cut through\' the mix with orchestral.

    Thanks in advance.

    Rob
    <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">It could. I think you\'ll just have to try it in your mix and see. EQ might also help you out when adding this, thinning out low mids and lows to get a little more bite on the attack transients.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">

  7. #7

    Re: Bosendorfer w/orchestral

    Originally posted by Bruce A. Richardson:
    </font><blockquote><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><hr /><font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Originally posted by Rob Elliott:
    Bruce,

    Excuse my ignorance, but will the \'distant\' Steinway mixed with the \'close mic\' help me \'cut through\' the mix with orchestral.

    Thanks in advance.

    Rob
    <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">It could. I think you\'ll just have to try it in your mix and see. EQ might also help you out, thinning out low mids and lows to get a little more bite on the attack transients.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Wouldn\'t it be better to get a sampled piano you didn\'t have to try to fix? If you have to fix something that much it usually doesn\'t sound very good to begin with and ends up sounding washed out with all the fixing.

  8. #8

    Re: Bosendorfer w/orchestral

    Hi Rob,

    There are several ways to help the GRANDIOSO Steinway D a little in the mix when it starts to dissapear between the other instruments. My experience is that the GRANDIOSO cuts through mixes better than other piano libraries, so I would start trying to adjust the balance of the other instruments so that there is some space for the piano.
    Normally the piano is placed a little bit in front of the orchestra, sometimes several meters.
    To do the same with samples, you should delay all other instrument chanels (except the piano) in the mix with a 5 msec delay per meter of the distance you want to emulate. This will bring the piano sound closer in the stereo mix.

    Other things: My first suggestion would be the use of EQ. There was no eq used on the samples during the mastering other than the removal of unwanted frequencies. You can add some high frequencies during the mix, but I guess you have already done that to start with... In that case try making a balance without the EQ\'s, maybe your eq settings have the opposite effect.

    Second: try the compressed version; it has longer sustain and a clearer tone that may cut trough the mix easier.

    Third: this is trick that you can apply using a second signal send of the piano. Send the duplicate signal (coming from an auxiliary feed) and compress the life out of it. Than remove all frequencies below say 5 kHz and boost everything above that. Add a minimal amount of this signal to the mix and see how it opens things up.You can add some reverb to this high frequency extra signal for more effect. Don\'t use this signal too much as it will start sounding electric, but it helped me out many times.

    The suggestion of using the distant samples to overcome mixdown situations is also very plausible. It can help the realistic positioning of the piano when you work in 5.1 surround mixes. In general you should add a barely audible amount of the distant samples. This will give more room and space around the recording. When the mix is filled with close-miced other instrument sections this will not solve anything though.

    Hope this helps,
    Michiel Post

  9. #9

    Re: Bosendorfer w/orchestral

    Thanks Michiel,

    I give your suggestions a go. I find the \'compressed\' solution very interesting. Thanks for your thorough answer.

    Bruce,

    Thanks for the suggestion to \'carve out\' competing freq\'s with the piano. I have already done this and it got me halfway there (a huge improvement over the previous mix.).

    Rob

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