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Topic: Using Cinebrass in Finale

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  1. #1

    Using Cinebrass in Finale

    So I got Cinebrass into Finale and have been doing sound experiments. I had a feeling the two programs would not play nice together, which didn't surprise me, but since I have been a Finale user since 1999, I knew I would be up for the challenge. Cinebrass works best with the human playback off which now means I need to learn how to mess with the midi tool which I have never used. Through experimenting, I learned that human playback will do a crescendo in Cinebrass, but it will just make a soft sample louder without modulating through the mod wheel changing the actual true dynamics and timbre of the samples. So a crescendo starting from piano will not go to the brassy sound of forte but will just be a louder version of the softer, mellowed piano dynamic. So to use the dynamic markings I needed to change the velocity setting to modulation and then enter 1-127 to truly effect the dynamic and timbre of the samples. That only took 15 minutes to figure out. Changing the tempo was still as easy as using the tempo tool like always, but now to truly use Cinebrass I need to be able to make crescendos and decrescendos that effect the mod wheel instead of velocity. Does anyone have any tips or links?
    Rodney

  2. #2

    Re: Using Cinebrass in Finale

    Quote Originally Posted by composingatnight View Post
    So I got Cinebrass into Finale and have been doing sound experiments. I had a feeling the two programs would not play nice together, which didn't surprise me, but since I have been a Finale user since 1999, I knew I would be up for the challenge. Cinebrass works best with the human playback off which now means I need to learn how to mess with the midi tool which I have never used. Through experimenting, I learned that human playback will do a crescendo in Cinebrass, but it will just make a soft sample louder without modulating through the mod wheel changing the actual true dynamics and timbre of the samples. So a crescendo starting from piano will not go to the brassy sound of forte but will just be a louder version of the softer, mellowed piano dynamic. So to use the dynamic markings I needed to change the velocity setting to modulation and then enter 1-127 to truly effect the dynamic and timbre of the samples. That only took 15 minutes to figure out. Changing the tempo was still as easy as using the tempo tool like always, but now to truly use Cinebrass I need to be able to make crescendos and decrescendos that effect the mod wheel instead of velocity. Does anyone have any tips or links?
    Rodney
    Hi Rodney,

    Excuse the hasty reply.

    Correct, nearly all modern Kontakt libs use cc1 to x-fade through dynamic layers.

    Playback settings - HP Preferences - New instrument techniques - all sustaining instruments - set dynamics to cc1 ONLY

    Then go to Dynamics and vol and set dynamic approach to automatic,

    Set your dynamic expressions to cc1

    HOWEVER - Cinebrass isn't the best example of a good Kontakt library for dynamic control. One touch of the mod wheel and it goes from p to ffff. Typical Hollywood epic stuff. Better off with Project SAM or Spitfire (although the latter is Horns only at the moment)

    Finale can produce excellent playback - it just takes a few mouse clicks to set things up. You don't need the 'under the hood' midi tools. Set things up properly and you will produce far better results than many keyboard / DAW users! But Cinebrass is an inconsistent library that will frustrate you I suspect.

    Spitfire, Orchestral Tools, Cinematic Strings, 8dio, Cinesamples (I do use them too despite the above), Voices of Prague, Hauptwerk - they all work with Finale in exactly the same way - and all the EastWest Play libraries.

    Here's a piece I first posted here with GPO a good few years ago re-rendered recently with Spitfire Mural, Berlin WW etc - straight out of Finale set out as above.

    http://www.soundclick.com/player/sin...&q=hi&newref=1

    Graham

  3. #3
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    Re: Using Cinebrass in Finale

    Why do you think CB works best with HP off? You just need to take some time and make some custom HP settings that work with CB. The default Garritan HP preferences for brass, won't work with CB. I also prefer switching the mapping in CB to keyswitch mode and creating text expressions which trigger the keyswitches. I dislike the CB default of using velocity to switch between articulations.

  4. #4

    Re: Using Cinebrass in Finale

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Turner View Post
    Why do you think CB works best with HP off? You just need to take some time and make some custom HP settings that work with CB. The default Garritan HP preferences for brass, won't work with CB. I also prefer switching the mapping in CB to keyswitch mode and creating text expressions which trigger the keyswitches. I dislike the CB default of using velocity to switch between articulations.
    Yes, this is a good point Jeff. Luckily, most Kontakt libs offer flexibility around this and allow you to reassign articulation changes to any unused cc which you can place in Finale as an expression. Personally, I avoid keyswitches but you've made me think again! Some libs do like their keyswitches and I'd be interested in knowing more about triggering these via Finale expression. I've seen a Kontakt script for this but that's getting a bit 'under the hood'.

    Using velocity to trigger art changes is for keyboard players and has no place in the world of notation! Like Jeff, I would avoid that too.

    Another thought resulting from something Rodney mentioned: tempo. I haven't used the Finale Tempo tool BUT I litter my score with tempo changes (which can be hidden). There is this idea that keyboard input helps to 'humanise' things - but you end up too often with keyboard sounding humanisation - if that makes sense. Sure, you can edit in a DAW but I still think notation is better for this. A complete orchestra is far more organic and a score makes the correct places for tempo adjustment more obvious. You can see when the tuba is encountering some nasty leaps and is going to drag the orchestra back slightly for a bar or two - and you can adjust accordingly. Pzz on the strings is another obvious example. There's a physical limit to how fast and how many bars this can be sustained for without a gradual slowing down as fingers and arms get tired! Again, you're less likely to think about that on a keyboard (or at least not until you've hammered out a few pages!). Woods need to breathe too - all this affects tempo and should be reflected in the Finale score.


    Graham

  5. #5
    Senior Member tedvanya's Avatar
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    Re: Using Cinebrass in Finale

    Graham:

    I am not using Finale or any other notation programs, and not even planning to do. However, reading the exchange on the subject, I came across your Rhapsody.
    I think you represent some direction in "modern" classical compositions which, to me at least, is where we should be heading. You still point to the beauty of harmony and melody of music, instead of senseless noise-making avoiding any of it.
    I am going to search for more of your music, and thank you for sharing that beauty...

    Ted

  6. #6

    Re: Using Cinebrass in Finale

    Quote Originally Posted by tedvanya View Post
    Graham:

    I am not using Finale or any other notation programs, and not even planning to do. However, reading the exchange on the subject, I came across your Rhapsody.
    I think you represent some direction in "modern" classical compositions which, to me at least, is where we should be heading. You still point to the beauty of harmony and melody of music, instead of senseless noise-making avoiding any of it.
    I am going to search for more of your music, and thank you for sharing that beauty...

    Ted
    Thank you Ted.

    From a dynamics perspective this isn't a particularly good example but I'm very pleased you enjoyed the track. I posted it in the Listening Room a good few years ago when I was first starting out with GPO. I was 'salvaging' some early pieces and in this case, shortened it and used some newer (and it has to be said, much more expensive libraries). That said, the solo violin was purchased from Kirk Hunter during one of his sales for next to nothing - about the price of two beers!! It took a lot to bring it under control with just Finale but it can be done. I chose this piece because of its GPO origins.

    Graham

  7. #7

    Re: Using Cinebrass in Finale

    Thank you all so much for all your help. I am still doing a lot of experimenting and will have many more questions coming soon, but until then, this is just a sample of what my experimenting with CineBrass and Finale has come up with. The settings you all gave me saved my life!
    ~Rod

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