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Topic: Watermarking in GOS and other libraries?

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  1. #1

    Watermarking in GOS and other libraries?

    Hello people!

    I recently heard something about a new anti-pirating system for samples, invented by the Frauenhofer Institute. It is supposed to work with a kinda watermarking for each sample of a library which allows to identify it later even though the signal is filtered heavily (e.g. radio)
    A few days ago I was talking to a friend, who claimed that this system is already being used in a few sample libraries including GOS.
    Does such a system technically work at all and is it true that it is already used in sample libraries?
    I can\'t really imagine how this should work. Any LF or HF signal can be filtered out. And even only combining any waveform with other similar waveforms would change the signal very much.
    Does this watermarking influence the sound of the samples in any way? I was thinking of buying GOS and don\'t want to hear any odd noises in there [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

    I hope someone can answer my questions. I\'m really curious.

    Cheers

    MothU

  2. #2

    Re: Watermarking in GOS and other libraries?

    Why don\'t we have a discussion about the locks on our doors and/or studios? Exactly what kind of key does one need? Maybe we could even send specific dimensions, ridge formations, etc?

  3. #3

    Re: Watermarking in GOS and other libraries?

    Sorry, I didn\'t want to annoy you. I just wanted to know if such a thing can work at all as I can\'t really imagine it to. I don\'t want any specific comments about it. And I also just want to know if it\'s a rumour or not.

  4. #4

    Re: Watermarking in GOS and other libraries?

    It\'s not so much annoying as it is suspicious and disrespectful - your questions presume that the developers are lying to us, and that they have so little integrity they\'d willingly see their quality of product suffer. We like our developers, so you\'ll pardon the defensive reaction.

    That said, this isn\'t idle curiousity. You\'re investigating the consequence of piracy.

    Wrong place for that.

  5. #5

    Re: Watermarking in GOS and other libraries?

    Originally posted by MothU:
    Sorry, I didn\'t want to annoy you. I just wanted to know if such a thing can work at all as I can\'t really imagine it to. I don\'t want any specific comments about it. And I also just want to know if it\'s a rumour or not.
    <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Whether watermarking works or not, i haven\'t heard any strange artifacts in my GOS samples. And I\'ve never read any complaints about such an anomaly on this message board either.

  6. #6

    Re: Watermarking in GOS and other libraries?

    Sorry about this, but this really wasn\'t my intention.

    Actually I\'m thinking myself of producing a sample library but I fear the piracy.
    Sorry, I don\'t want this to get any more discussion about sample protection. I\'m just searching a good way to protect what I\'m maybe gonna do before I start doing it.

    Sorry again.

  7. #7

    Re: Watermarking in GOS and other libraries?

    The best thing you can do is to protect your cd\'s with a form of protection that will prevent casual piracy but will not cause problems for the buyers of your software. Anything more is useless since the protection will get cracked. About the only foolproof copy protection out there right now is with playing online games. Since you need the companies servers to play the online games they can control what serial numbers are valid.

  8. #8

    Re: Watermarking in GOS and other libraries?

    I think (amongst the hysteria) that there is a valid question here. Does digital watermarking actually WORK, or is it high-tech smoke and mirrors to frighten would-be pirates off? Given that the new anti-piracy measures by the RIAA were defeated by a 19-cent Sharpie, I think it\'s a valid question.

    *** NECESSARY BORING DISCLAIMER ***
    Please note that I am NOT advocating piracy, nor am I a pirate, so please don\'t waste time, bandwidth and hostility responding in that manner.

    This is a technically-oriented discussion, referencing information that is probably extremely proprietary (and I don\'t care to know that information.) The question is nothing more than, \"Does it work?\" Please keep any response to this post RELEVANT.

    If you can\'t understand or respond to the question because you\'re too upset at the thought of the existancy of piracy, and you feel that anyone daring to question is by definition a pirate, then hit the backspace button, vote for Bush and go on with your life. I say this because EVERY TIME someone on this forum raises this kind of question, there is a flood of virulent name-calling, making it impossible to get a rational discussion.
    *** End rant, please continue or exit ***

    Take a watermarked library-for the sake of discussion, let\'s use a Strat guitar. At what point does the digital signature become unrecoverable? Will it stand up to the kind of processing that is routinely performed on today\'s mixes?

    I create a track with the raw signal, mixed with a bunch of other real or sampled instruments. You buy the CD - the ID is recoverable, I\'m pretty certain.

    I create the track with the signal run through a bunch of outboard signal processing-Pod distortion, a flanger and reverb. Now I mix it back into my product. You buy the CD. At this point, I question whether the distortion and analog processing haven\'t rendered the signature unidentifiable.

    Finally-I create a CD with seven or eight libraries, all watermarked, many processed through digital or external analog processors, three of these are string tracks heavily used as pads and highly processed but mixed low in the track. You buy this CD also. Can you recover ALL the IDs? Could they perhaps get mingled and generate IDs that are invalid, or even someone else\'s?

    My concerns are twofold: Developers pay the price for the right to use this watermark product. This cost gets passed along to the users. I own several libraries which are watermarked, and I\'m sure to buy others (and incidentally I have also noticed no odd artifacts in these disks, apparently this part of the process is successful.) I don\'t want to fund snake-oil salesmen, I\'d rather give that money to the guys doing the work-Nick, Donnie, Franz, Dennis, etc. If watermarking is easily defeated, they (and we) deserve to know, if for no other reason than to let the copy-protection developers go back to the drawing board and come up with something which DOES work, for both developers and users.

    And second, (and probably unfounded, but I have to ask) if multiple watermarked libraries used together could cause mis-identification of the original owners, there could be a real can or worms waiting to be opened.

    To reiterate, I am not advocating piracy, I\'m not even saying that developers should not bother with copy protection. I\'m just asking a question: Does digital watermarking work in today\'s production environment, yes or no?

    If you don\'t feel the question should be asked, don\'t bother to respond.

    Dasher

  9. #9

    Re: Watermarking in GOS and other libraries?

    Thanks Dasher,

    you\'re exactly expressing, what I wanted to ask. I just didn\'t find the right words :/

  10. #10

    Re: Watermarking in GOS and other libraries?

    ....I aggree midphase..
    And it happens a lot, there is a lot of some strange posts where developers a s s is being kissed without any reason....those people are strange, as if they would like so much to be loved and noticed by the developers...weird..
    I better stop now...since this is just ranting as well..
    But it is weird...you say \"copy protection\" some of those strange people scream \"PIRATE PIRATE KILL KILL!!!\"
    you say this sample library sucks...they scream \"AMATEUR, PIRATE KILL KILL\" and then wait to see if the developer has noticed their smart little post...
    so funny...
    I mean look at this...

    \"It\'s not so much annoying as it is suspicious and disrespectful - your questions presume that the developers are lying to us, and that they have so little integrity they\'d willingly see their quality of product suffer. We like our developers, so you\'ll pardon the defensive reaction.\"
    And who are \"WE\" Aaron? Is there some sort of wicked \"Developer Fan\" cult? And what do you know about MothU? Maybe he loves developers as much as you do? Maybe that\'s why he came to this board and not some cracking bbs?
    and...and...maybe I love Gary and Dan more then you ever will....LOL! [img]images/icons/grin.gif[/img]


    Alex

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