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Topic: Q's for E. Persing about Stylus

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  1. #1

    Q\'s for E. Persing about Stylus

    Eric - I was wondering if you could expand a little bit on your new SAGE technology. I\'ve read everything on your website but I have a few questions about the new RMX version of Stylus. For example:

    1) Is Sylus RMX a new software instrument completely different then Stylus?
    2) Does RMX treat former libraries that are Groove control kind of like a refill (for lack of better term)? can you expand any on how this technology will work with older libraries?
    3) Will it be possible to slice older libraries that are NOT GC and get them to work from within the new player?
    4) Will RMX only work with your samples or will there be a way to apply SAGE slicing technology to other libraries that are not spectrasonics (I ask because it says you can import a ,rex file)


    This sounds like really exciting technology. I just have to ask why on earth would you announce it 9 months ahead of time? Was it because you needed 9 months to birth this baby of yours? Or do you just really love torturing your customers by announcing products that we can only lust and dream about? Thanks again for creating such inspiring products [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img]


    J-

  2. #2

    Re: Q\'s for E. Persing about Stylus

    Originally posted by J. Whaley:

    1) Is Stylus RMX a new software instrument completely different then Stylus?
    <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Yes...it is a completely new instrument, that also includes the original sounds of Stylus.

    Originally posted by J. Whaley:
    2) Does RMX treat former libraries that are Groove control kind of like a refill (for lack of better term)? can you expand any on how this technology will work with older libraries?
    <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Yes. It\'s very simple actually. You just put any Groove Control sampler library CDs (doesn\'t matter what format or product), press a button and it gets automatically converted into a SAGE \"refill\" library. The process only has to be done once, and then all the new features and attributes of the new technology are available. The conversion process is \"smart\" because it already knows what to do with each library, and actually improves the library in many ways during the conversion process.

    Originally posted by J. Whaley:
    3) Will it be possible to slice older libraries that are NOT GC and get them to work from within the new player?
    <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Yes. You can do this with Propellerheads\' ReCycle application and create Rex files that will work in Stylus RMX, Reason and many other apps too. [/QB][/QUOTE]

    Originally posted by J. Whaley:
    4) Will RMX only work with your samples or will there be a way to apply SAGE slicing technology to other libraries that are not spectrasonics (I ask because it says you can import a ,rex file)
    <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Yes....all the advanced features of the SAGE technology are applicable to REX files, GC files and the core library!

    Originally posted by J. Whaley:
    This sounds like really exciting technology. I just have to ask why on earth would you announce it 9 months ahead of time? Was it because you needed 9 months to birth this baby of yours? Or do you just really love torturing your customers by announcing products that we can only lust and dream about? Thanks again for creating such inspiring products [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img]
    <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">It\'s been in development for a long time. At this point, it was important to show our customers a bit of the new direction we are going, and what we are doing right now. The big announcement is really that we are doing our own technology now, and this is just the beginning of what you\'ll see from Spectrasonics -the software company. Winter NAMM is when we try to make our big announcements. This is a big project and very exciting, and we wanted to give a little peak at what we are up to.

    All the best,

    spectrum

  3. #3

    Re: Q\'s for E. Persing about Stylus

    Now, I know you\'re probably a pretty modest guy Eric, but deep down you know you rule, right?
    (Just nod to yourself and say \"Yes.\") [img]images/icons/wink.gif[/img]

    Looking forward to what you have to show at Winter NAMM.

  4. #4

    Re: Q\'s for E. Persing about Stylus

    Wow Thanks Eric! That sounds pretty dang cool. There\'s been a few products over the years that I\'ve bought and from the day I started using them my clients have said my work quality has increased substantially. The Karma was one of them. Stylus was the most recent one. Ever since I started working with it all of my drum programming has become better. Even if I don\'t use a loop but create my own from the Add on section! Your creativity has been huge blessing to thousands of people and I know this new stuff will be the same!!


    One more question if I could. I\'ve always felt like .rex files do not do such a great job with making loops work well sliced up. They slice fine but something about recycle makes the loops sound really dirty - a problem Groove control doesn\'t have to worry about. I\'m wondering if that will still be a problem with SAGE or if SAGE will be able to take the slices from .rex files and play them back sounding as they were meant to sound?


    Thanks again.

    Jeremy

  5. #5

    Re: Q\'s for E. Persing about Stylus

    Originally posted by spectrum:
    [The big announcement is really that we are doing our own technology now, and this is just the beginning of what you\'ll see from Spectrasonics -the software company.
    <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Bravo, Bro!

  6. #6

    Re: Q\'s for E. Persing about Stylus

    Originally posted by J. Whaley:
    I\'ve always felt like .rex files do not do such a great job with making loops work well sliced up. They slice fine but something about recycle makes the loops sound really dirty
    <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Jeremy, I\'m not quite sure what you\'re refering to. I\'ve never heard that ReCycle changes the sound of the audio file, unless you want it to. ReCycle is a professional application, and many REX files sound excellent. The main difference, IMV, with Groove Control, is that the GC files have been edited better (and perhaps contain some other, secret spices... [img]images/icons/wink.gif[/img] ). What do you mean when you say dirty? Are your REX files distorted? Are you saving them at a lower bit rate? Just curious...

  7. #7

    Re: Q\'s for E. Persing about Stylus

    Yes Ned I\'ve actually had quite a bit of trouble with Rex files. And I\'m not the only one. Several months back we had a discussion on here about it and Eric chimed in and explained that\'s why they went with developing their GC technology.

    The problem is basically when you edit a file, it\'s no longer clean. AI thought it was a personal problem at first but then bought several \"rex\" libraries and found the problem to be universal.

    For example: My personal situation was I took some shakers that I had on a track and cut out a couple bars to create loops. Everything looped great as an audio file within Logic so I know the edits were right. They were also recorded 24 bit so I knew the quality was good. I then took those files and put them into Recycle to chop them up. I got all the slices like I wanted but the sound quality just wasn\'t the same. It was like all the high end was gone and some buzziness was on the whole loop (not distortion -just something buzzy). When I checked it with the toggle switch between sliced and non-sliced the original file returned to be clean. I tried this with severl shakers and found it to be a consistant problem.

    SO, I presumed it was the artifacts of a shaker. And I switched to working with drum sounds. I found the same problem.

    So then I just figured it must be me. That there must be some art to creating good rex files. I bought a collection of drum loops from M-audio. It came with .rex files, acid files, and all the straight audio files etc. (much like pro- samples)

    I loaded the loops up as audio files and they were just freaking hot. I loved them. Then I took the same loops and put them in Recycle. The files that the company had created - so they should have been good - and I had the same sonic problem I was having. Then when I changed the tempo the groove was lost as well.

    So I concluded that since the sonic quality of the loops were changed even when it\'s played at the same tempo - something about the .rex files degrades the audio. Which is why I quit working with them. I\'ve started using LIVE or just programming my own grooves.


    To further my tests I tried the stuff in Reason with the Dr. rex player and found the same problems to be true. basically across the board, the sonic quality of a .rex file, after edited is not that high. I ran this by a few reason friends here in town and after I pointed it out they all noticed the same thing and have stopped using the software also.


    If you have a solution I\'d love to hear it but I think it\'s recycle. That\'s why I\'m anxious to play with intakt and see if it\'s slicing properties work better!


    J-


    BTW - I also checked the bundled loops with Reason and they are all a bit gritty as well. It works fine if you want grit - but if you don\'t want it then it\'s just not useable.

  8. #8

    Re: Q\'s for E. Persing about Stylus

    Good ears!

    However, what\'s at issue is not REX files themselves, there\'s nothing wrong sonically with the format itself and it doesn\'t degrade the sound inherently.

    But you\'re right that many REX libraries, and personal REX files have serious sonic problems (chopped, distorted, weird noises, gappy, won\'t change tempo properly, won\'t quantize correctly, etc, etc). The reason for this is twofold:

    1. The editing work was most likely done poorly or by inexperienced users. There\'s a wide misconception that ReCycle is a type of \"quick and easy\" app to get great results from. The truth is that ReCycling is a real craft that takes much patience and skill...literally many, many months and often years to develop (there\'s a lot of tricks and bizarre, undocumented techniques to be able to get great results). But someone who is skilled at ReCycling techniques (and they are a rare breed) can get excellent results with this application, particularly in the area of slowing grooves down significantly while keeping great sound quality.

    *Speeding up grooves is much easier to do (ever wonder why Drum and Bass is so fast?;-) and can also be achieved with lots of other apps like Intakt, Phatmatik, etc....but they don\'t work well for slowing down grooves while keeping top sound quality and the ability to adjust the feel because their slicing abilities do not have any slice stretching....so the result is gappy an often unmusical. Straight time streching options like Intakt, Live and Acid have a great for certain things, but the overall sound quality is always greatly affected...since the whole loop is going through a real-time DSP process all the time.....that\'s when you hear that \"flangy\" sound when you slow grooves way down.

    2. ReCycle is not the right application for every type of loop. It\'s best for percussive loops that don\'t have strong tonality, but tonal loops are nearly impossible to make work well with only using ReCycle.

    Which is why with Groove Control, we use many different applications for editing (including ReCycle) depending on the needs of that particular loop. We also have some proprietary tools and techniques that helps us deal with tricky situations.

    A Groove Control file also goes through a rigorous testing period and often many different revisions and techniques before it is released. So in many ways, Groove Control is a \"seal of quality\" on a sliced groove that just doesn\'t exist anywhere else in our industry. When you buy any Groove Control enabled product.....it just basically works and does exactly what you\'d expect it to. Groove Control files always sound great at a huge variety of tempos, you can quantize the feel of grooves with predictable results and they are free from slice \"garbage\" or artifacts that plague so many other products or time stretching based tools.

    This is also why it takes us MUCH longer to release a Groove Control activated product compared to other developers doing straight loops.....it\'s a huge amount of work to make a library of Groove Control loops!

    So the answer to your question is that Groove Control loops will very often be of better quality than REX files, but it is possible (depending on the type of loop and the skill of the ReCycle user) to create a sliced loop of similar quality to a Groove Control loop.

    Obviously, a poorly edited REX file will work poorly in SAGE, and an excellently edited REX file will work excellent in SAGE.

    (it\'s nice to see sample CD reviewers start to comment on this issue too. I noticed a recent Keyboard review which took a developer to task for providing really poorly edited REX files....about time!)

    The big deal for Stylus RMX is that it opens up the exciting creative possibility to use all the new features of the powerful SAGE technology with audio that is not only coming from Spectrasonics, but also from other REX library developers and a user\'s own audio if they choose.

    Another good thing is that even if a REX file\'s editing was done poorly, it can still be opened and edited in ReCycle for further editing and improvement.

    Hope that helps!

    spectrum

  9. #9

    Re: Q\'s for E. Persing about Stylus

    Well that sure helps a heck of a lot Eric. That was a really great explaination. Any desire to release a book or guide for creating quality rex files!


    J-

  10. #10

    Re: Q\'s for E. Persing about Stylus

    Thanks for the excellent, detailed explanation Spectrum! Now if only we can have some Artificial Intelligence built into SAGE so that it can do what your GC Masters do to any imported audio files, we\'ll be in 8th heaven!!! [img]images/icons/wink.gif[/img]

    Whoa, then again, when we get to that stage, that technology might replace the composer as well... [img]images/icons/shocked.gif[/img]

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