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Topic: something to think about....

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  1. #1

    something to think about....

    There has been a lot of discussion recently about the stability of Gigastudio and a lot of unhappy people. However I think that many are missing the boat on how to succesfully use this product. Although Nemesys doesn\'t exactly come out and say it the best, and more importantly most stable way to use GS is on a dedicated PC. Since I switched to this setup GS has not crashed ONE time. Anyone who knows anything about computers knows that the PC architecture is very complex. It allows for more things to go wrong easily. When you stack up a bunch of programs all sharing .dll\'s you are bound for bad things to happen. The software, for everything that it does, is really cheap and it does work. Think about it, would the big names in LA being using it if it weren\'t stable? Heck no! And those guys have some heavy deadlines.
    Let\'s face it, there are always going to be little problems with software (go to ANY software discussion board) but you can save yourself a lot of headaches by dedicating a PC to GS. Even when you figure in the cost of a new computer and the software it\'s still much cheaper than a maxed out AKAI or EMU that can\'t begin to touch the spec\'s.

    Just my 2 cents...
    Donnie

  2. #2

    Re: something to think about....

    Are some people having difficulty integrating GS with a sequencing program? Sure, they’re the ones who are frustrated enough to post to this forum. Will GS integrate successfully with a sequencing program (as advertised)? Again, yes. I ran it during testing without any particular difficulties with Logic as the sequencer/HD recording program. But the brutal fact is that, as much as we dream about this all-in-one computer that does everything but butter our bread, the more programs (and hardware) we try to run simultaneously, the more problems and conflicts we will encounter. Increasingly complex interactions almost always lead to this result. The point Donnie tried to make was: One way to sidestep most of this is to put GS on a dedicated computer to reduce the complexity. Like it or not, this is solid advice. I run two near-dedicated installations of GigaStudio with all sequencing/HD recording done on a third computer. I encounter very few problems with either GS computer. In fact, during heavy use I rarely give them any more thought than I would sound modules in the rack. Yes, this is a professional installation but the principle can work for anyone (at the cost of an additional dedicated machine). Having dedicated (or near dedicated) machines in the studio has saved me many a headache and I second Donnie’s advice. Of course, Nemesys should continue development to make the software as bug-free a possible, but having a dedicated machine will always give you the best chance for stability. Now, as far as Nemesys “choosing” to live outside standard Windows protocol: This technology does not work using standard Windows protocol. Their proprietary protocol was essential to making this idea work and criticizing them for making the necessary decision to implement a proprietary approach is out of line. Or would you prefer that GS didn’t exist at all? That was the choice Nemesys faced during development. Wavestream technology is fundamentally different and required creative work-arounds to function. This may not be convenient for all of us with a load of direct-x plugins, but it was unavoidable and a decision I’m glad they made.

  3. #3

    Re: something to think about....

    I had not intent of proving Donnie\'s advice as false (sorry if such a message came through). I completely agree with him/you. The safest/best way to use Giga software may indeed require a dedicated system. What I wanted to say is that this is an expensive solution. And since the product is supposed to work alongside a sequencer, then it should do so and do it happily. I am not complaining on my behalf. I have GStudio running on the same machine with Cakewalk with no problems whatsoever (so far, fingers crossed).

    As far as the proprietory approach of the Giga software. On the things I am about to say, maybe I know a little more stuff than you do, or maybe I am severely mistaken. I want to make my point anyway, you judge by yourselves.

    I personally believe, GStudio has many limitations/proprietory features on purpose. I consider it a marketing thing. I will explain why I believe this... Let\'s take the jargon first:

    1) GSIF
    It has been claimed that this protocol offers the lowest latency audio driver protocol. The others were not supposed to be good enough. Admitedly, ASIO was developed with multitrack recording/playback in mind with relatively low latency and tight syncronization in mind. Not perfect for software samplers. But, ASIO is almost a standard for any serious soundcard. Latencies can be extremely low and if not, it\'s a hardware limitation and not a protocol problem. You can often get 15ms or less latency with ASIO and this is totally and professionally accepted as realtime. Most other soft-synths/samplers (e.g. Unity DS-1) support ASIO and latency has never been a problem.

    2) NFX
    The NFX are supposed to be low-latency plugins, unlike the other DirectX/VST standards. FALSE! As far as I know, most (all?) DirectX/VST plugins have zero/low latency as well. Proof? You can use them from within a low-latency host in realtime.

    Don\'t you also find the mixer limitations on a non GSIF card suspicious? Cubase VST for example can give you *powerful* mixing, fx and routing facilities even if you use DirectSound with only one physical stereo output in the end of the chain. Also, a friend recently brought to my attention a gigastudio *.gsp performance file which supposedly unlocked some of those limitations in the software when using DirectSound. The system here has a Yamaha SW1000XG soundcard in the studio and I use the directsound driver with GSt. After launching this performance file, the available AUX busses magicaly expanded from 2 to 8!! All of them fully functional, I tested them! How do you explain this?

    Bottom line, it\'s Nemesys\' right to do whatever they want with the Giga technology. They created it, it\'s their property. I am just outlining some issues regarding their credibility on the choices they have made behind its technology and why they claim they\'ve made those choices. It\'s still their right.

    Also, I have noticed something like a \'war\' going on between the German/European and US audio software industry. Cubase and Logic on the one side supporting ASIO, VST, ReWire etc.. Cakewalk on the other side ignoring all the above standards (it\'s all in the interview in www.thedirectxfiles.com) and forming partnerships with Nemesys and other companies, following a completely different direction. Competition is nice, but when our community is divided into lots of completely different pieces, then it can only hurt us in the end.

    I am sorry, I am just of the opinion that not everything is what it appears to be. I tend to like to imagine things behind the curtains. Maybe I have too great of an imagination, maybe not. Anyhow, I just realized this post has ended up taking a completely different turn than I hoped for.

    Regards

  4. #4

    Re: something to think about....


  5. #5

    Re: something to think about....

    I have posted several times on this forum about my Dell Pentium II 450 with 256 mb ram and 2 Maxtor hard drives. I have been able to get 157 voices (once I got 160). But, even then, there were the occasional quirks that seem to go with Gigastudio. So, I tried the optimizing suggestions suggested on this forum, and I have had nothing but problems since. I should have left well enough alone.

    One of the big problems was syncing the captured audios in Cakewalk 9.03. The tracks would be perfectly together for the first 90% and then slide apart at the end making them unusable. I tried Neno\'s utility and it seemed to help some, but my 30 day trial ended. The only way to register the program seems to be to go to the bank and wire $25.00 to Neno\'s bank in Split, Croatia. That\'s not something I do on a regular basis. If he only could accept credit cards or PayPal, I would already have bought it. But then, I shouldn\'t have to. If the program and solution is as simple as some have said (Ursatz, I believe), and Neno has said he hopes Nemesys will include the program in future updates, then why has Nemesys not offered the fix to us. Some have asked Nemesys to respond about Neno\'s utility, but to my knowledge they haven\'t yet.

    I love Gigastudio and with my investment in Sample libraries and equipment I cannot and will not look for other solutions. I need Nemesys to take a more active role in fixing the bugs in Gigastudio. In the mean time, I will build a dedicated computer for Gigastudio.

    By the way, I uninstalled Gigastudio last Friday afternoon, in order to do a new, clean install. I kept getting the dreaded MSG32 error that many have complained about. When I went to re-install the program, I got an error on the Setup.exe program. I got as far as \"Do you want to replace a newer version of WSTRM.DLL with an older version?\" and it shut down. I was able to get to that point once more and I tried the other answer, and it shut down. I called Nemesys support at 4:30 PM on Friday and got voice mail, but of course no answer yet. I left email and got an automatic response that they would get back to me on the next business day. So, dead in the water for the whole weekend.

    As you can tell, I\'M FRUSTRATED!

    Terry

  6. #6

    Re: something to think about....

    Donnie,

    If Nemesys stepped out and said that their software only works right on a dedicated PC, I believe that would cause a lot of stir and disappointment. Maybe a high-end pro composer could put together dedicated GS systems and work with almost no hassle. But, don\'t forget that Nemesys are also producing low-end versions of the software. Go and tell those Gigasampler (LE) and GSt96 users, that may have been saving for months to buy the product, that they actually need a 2nd system to use the software properly.

    It\'s Nemesys responsibility to make the program work along with a sequencer. They advertise that their products can work this way, and they are responsible to stick to those promises.

    A big problem with their approach, is that they have chozen to alienate themselves from each and every established audio standard/protocol on the Windows platform. The only familiar \'language\' Giga software speaks is MIDI and DirectSound. All the other GSIF, NXF etc... are just ways of making the software work with nothing but what Nemesys approves (I will probably have to buy a GSIF mouse for the next version of GigaStudio). Integration is a key factor in the success of a modern PC DAW, Nemesys are apparently unaware of that term.

    Anyway, the point being that we should not \'blame\' users for buggy software. We must not resort to that in any case.

    Regards

  7. #7

    Re: something to think about....

    a simple solution is to make a fresh windows install, and copy c:\\windows into c:\\windowsb. make a bat file that renames \\windows\\ into \\windows2\\, and \\windowsb\\ into \\windows\\.

    then use a program like 98lite to rip out things like internet explorer, windows 3.11 libs, help files, pretty much everything.

    then you\'ll have two almost seperate installs. if you install all your programs to the same spots they wont trip on each other, so you can still have IE and everything under one windows, and work on music, but if you wanted to get serious you could flip it to the stripped windows \"just in case\".

    sorry if thats a tad rambling, but thats the way im going to do things whenever i get around to reinstalling.

  8. #8

    Re: something to think about....

    Donnie,
    I can see your point. I have been using PC since the day of 8088. I have dedicated a PIII 600 to GigaStudio. I am just an amateur. I am still not very happy with it. But I am not going to blame anyone for it. With another $360 I plan to move up to PIII 933. PC is a piece of machine. GigaStudio is a piece of software. We just have to do the best we can with them.
    I know there have been a lot of discussions before about the best configurations for dedicated PC. There have also been numerous conflicts of opinions. One obvious one is the disk buffer. My common sense tells me that having some kind of buffer is better than none, unless, of course, by doing so we steal the ram that can be better used for something else.
    Donnie, I definitely would like to have your configuration (unless it is confidential). My e-mail is login183@home.com. Thank you.


  9. #9

    Re: something to think about....

    It would be nice if Donnie could post is config. here so everyone can learn from his success.
    Cheers

    Ric

  10. #10

    Re: something to think about....

    Sure here\'s my configuration...and please, if you have any other questions just ask. I\'ll do the best I can to help.

    PIII 550 (Gateway), (2) 13.5 gig ultra ATA hard drives, 256 megs of ram, nvida 16meg video card, Gina 20 bit, GS 160, Opcode Midisport 32

    hooked via midi too...

    Mac G4 400, 192 megs of ram, digital performer, fastlane usb.

    I have the vcache on the PC set to 48000. I know that seems really high but it really works for me and the lower amount do not at all. I\'m not saying that this will work for everyone but it works on my system.

    Donnie

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