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Topic: Symphony a-minor III. Scherzo Allegro

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  1. #1
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    Symphony a-minor III. Scherzo Allegro

    In the recent days I wrote a symphonic Scherzo in the style of the early Romantics with a very lovely Trio part in the middle:

    www.gerdprengel.de/symphony_am_scherzo.mp3

    http://www.gerdprengel.de/Scherzo_Allegro.pdf

    I hope you'll enjoy ...

    Gerd

  2. #2
    Senior Member tedvanya's Avatar
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    Re: Symphony a-minor III. Scherzo Allegro

    First of all, it is unfair that we did not respond to your work,when it is a very interesting work.
    I had to listen twice, to form an opinion.
    I believe you could make very good improvement over all if you could place your winds farther back. Now it sounds that the strings are sitting way back on the stage, and the bassoon is at the front, including all the other winds.
    Your strings are beautiful, but you hardly let us her them.
    The returning tutti for the strings are too loud and harsh.
    I hope you take my comments as it is intended, this kind of comments would be most helpful to all of us, because I believe after we listening to our own works so often, we don't hear them properly any more, other ears needed to make as aware of possible improvements.
    I would be interested to hear the rest of the symphony, when you finish it.
    Thanks for posting it

    Ted

  3. #3
    Senior Member fastlane's Avatar
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    Re: Symphony a-minor III. Scherzo Allegro

    I remember listening to one of your symphonies years ago. As this one it was influenced by the romantic period composers which is my favorite.

    It sounds like your composing with notation and the music is correct as far as the score but it has issues as far as a realistic sound of an orchestra. If your goal is to and you have success at getting your music performed by an orchestra then the audio rendering is possibly just something to listen to as one reads the score. So maybe this works for you. If this audio file is IT then I think you would want to make this audio file more pleasing to the listener's ear with better realism which is a craft in it's own right and I believe a worth while endeavor regardless of whether it will be performed or not.

    Phil

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    Re: Symphony a-minor III. Scherzo Allegro

    Quote Originally Posted by tedvanya View Post
    ...I believe you could make very good improvement over all if you could place your winds farther back. Now it sounds that the strings are sitting way back on the stage, and the bassoon is at the front, including all the other winds.
    Thank you for your advice. I reduced now the volume of the woodwinds and increased the volume of the strings. Putting the woodwinds more into the "back" however I just don't know how to do this...

    Apart from technical advices I would love to hear some comments regarding the composition itself ...

    Gerd

  5. #5

    Re: Symphony a-minor III. Scherzo Allegro

    Hi Gerd,

    I fully agree with Ted, who has a trained ear. It is not too complicated to create some distance in the orchestra. Here are some tips:

    • consider the seats of the musicians as seats on the stage of a concert room.
    • the strings (violins I & II, violas, cellos) are in the front row (depending on your orchestral positions)
    • woodwinds comm next in the second row (+ d. basses)
    • brass and timpani third row.
    • timpani (sometimes) and other percussion 4. row


    This is a rough draft of a possibility for the orchestral seats. There are of course so many variations depending on the kind of orchestra, the era, the personal preferences... Use busses to create the same distance for a row of instruments and send all the instruments of one row to these busses.

    To create distance, you ca use some expensive program like MIR Pro (VSL) or just fiddle with low cost (no cost) means like dry/wet balance. Think of a concert hall when sitting let's say in the 3de row in the audience.


    1. the first orchestral row is very close: 100 % dry
    2. the second row has some more early reflections, caused by a bigger distance and some more reverb: dry somewhat less, wet some more than the 1st row
    3. more distance, less dry, more wet


    and so on. BUT: Don't overdo. Listen carefully after each step. Decide on the amount of wet for the overall orchestra and when possible, choose a convolution reverb instead of a artificial reverb. The further from the audience, the more wet reverb, the less dry. But these differences are tiny. Nobody in the orchestra is sitting 100 meters from the audience, so be economic with the wet reverb and the decrease of the dry reverb. Thus you will create roughly the distance feel.

    There is also a the question of equalising. The further, the less brilliant the sound will be (loss of middle and high frequencies), but this is a totally different and difficult matter to explain in a nutshell.

    In addition, I can recommend a rather cheap little program to assist you in creating depth in the performance: Virtual Sound Stage by Parallax. It shows the exact position of the instruments and provides even some presets and ready made audition rooms. Here's the link (you can test it): http://www.parallax-audio.com/

    I hope you can do something with this brief assistance.

    Succes!

    Max

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    Re: Symphony a-minor III. Scherzo Allegro

    Quote Originally Posted by Max Hamburg View Post
    more distance, less dry, more wet
    Dear Max, thank your for you extensive remarks!!
    I experimented now in the GPO "Ambience Reverbs" with the dry/wet parameter. I created a wave-file only with the strings and then with a different dry/wet parameter a file with the winds and then I mixed them into one file (please listen to it).

    Now the winds seem to be not so dominant in the front anymore but more in the back but I did not do it the way you told me but in the opposite way! For it appears to me that when I increase the "wet" sound it seems to be NOT in the back but with fullness and dominance in the front!! So I actually reduced now the "wet" for the winds in order to shift them into the back! So how can you write that I have to increase the wet in order to get a "background" impression? Don't you get fullness and dominance by increasing "wet" ?

    Gerd

  7. #7

    Re: Symphony a-minor III. Scherzo Allegro

    Quote Originally Posted by gprengel View Post
    Dear Max, thank your for you extensive remarks!!
    I experimented now in the GPO "Ambience Reverbs" with the dry/wet parameter. I created a wave-file only with the strings and then with a different dry/wet parameter a file with the winds and then I mixed them into one file (please listen to it).

    Now the winds seem to be not so dominant in the front anymore but more in the back but I did not do it the way you told me but in the opposite way! For it appears to me that when I increase the "wet" sound it seems to be NOT in the back but with fullness and dominance in the front!! So I actually reduced now the "wet" for the winds in order to shift them into the back! So how can you write that I have to increase the wet in order to get a "background" impression? Don't you get fullness and dominance by increasing "wet" ?

    Gerd
    Hi Gerd,


    It sounds a bit exaggerated now: Too much reverb overal. But have you checked the amount of reverb (reverb volume, tail duration, release time)? There must be a certain balance between the dry output volume and the reverb volume. The pure instrumental sound must prevail at all times. Now it seems that it is buried under reverb. That's why you get the inverse impression I suppose. So please check all the ARIA parameters. And there is of course the other matter, the frequency shift. But all these differences are very tiny and subtle. To test this, start with two or three instruments and try to position them according to your wishes.

    Max

  8. #8
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    Re: Symphony a-minor III. Scherzo Allegro

    Indeed, it was too much reverb. I reduced it and now it should be ok! Thanks for your help!

  9. #9
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    Re: Symphony a-minor III. Scherzo Allegro

    I don't understand what happenes here: with Firefox the second part of the Scherzo is repeated all over. The Trio starts finally at 10:01 instead of around 4:05 . When downloaded with Internet Exolorer, however, it is ok ...

  10. #10

    Re: Symphony a-minor III. Scherzo Allegro

    Quote Originally Posted by gprengel View Post
    I don't understand what happenes here: with Firefox the second part of the Scherzo is repeated all over. The Trio starts finally at 10:01 instead of around 4:05 . When downloaded with Internet Exolorer, however, it is ok ...
    On my Mac (with Safari and with Firefox) it was OK.

    Max

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