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Topic: Finally, the best sampled saxes EVER

  1. #1

    Finally, the best sampled saxes EVER

    I\'ve been here deeply testing your VR saxes for four days and now I have a clear idea of them, so I can provide you my feedback, at last [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

    This topic was quite popular some months ago, as nothing seems to be a valid alternative to Yamaha VL systems. Having a sampled alternative would have always been cool, making the job easier for people who rely on gigastudio as their main and only sampling station.

    VR saxes really surpass every other sax libraries in the nowadays market.

    The sampling job is great, all the colours of the brass have been captured, the overall character is great.
    The attacks are awesome too, as it\'s possible to hear the breath of the player when it firstly enter the intruments.
    Release layers and decay of the samples are good too, as they have good vibratos and excellent fades.
    Dynamics are well built on the keyboard and all the additional techniques and growls are great.

    I was right when thinking that those VR saxes where the best sampled ones.

    I think nothing can beat them on the no-breath controller stage. Look no further..

  2. #2

    Re: Finally, the best sampled saxes EVER

    I have Both QLB and the VR Tenor sax

    The tone in the tenor from VR is fantastic. Especially compared to the QLB one. The VR one has some great breathiness, and the QLB oen is possibly too far mic\'d for my personal prefference. The QLB one however has more attack variations and can be played at different tempos with some good expression.

    Both come with pretty bad programming, however The VR sax is worse IMO.

    I still do not understand why \"legato\" samples are mapped to the middle 2 velocities of a four velocity split. Also I\'m finding unmapped samples within the gig itself (like stacattos). Some notes have a bend into the note, some dont. And Finally the loop points in the sustains are terrible. the Growl loop points are even worse. Almost one cycle. Way to consistant, so what happens is as soon as you sustain to a loop it sounds like a synth.

    This is too bad IMO, since the tone of the sax is quite fantastic. I\'ve done some reprogramming and it plays much better for me now, I\'ve also done some sample editing to fix some problems. This brings me to another point. Due the the way the library is distributed, I cannot share any ART files for this library. The samples are named specific to the customer for copy protection. So each persons library has different names for the samples, this means sharing ART files cant be done, since it works with specific file names.

    The only bad thing in the programming to QLB for me is release times (way terrible for pop horns) and lack of keyswitches (which makes you forget there are other articulations that can help). Other than that it is just standard fare programming. Maybe a future update can be made available. I\'m planning on making release triggers for myself at some point, that should help the library out a ton!

    Anyhow, If you focus on tone of saxes, and if the rest of the VR set is the same as the tenor, then I suggest the VR ones over QLB. Tone is a very important thing with Saxes IMO, and VR tenor\'s got a great tone, still be forewarned the programming and some of the sample editing is just plain terrible IMO. I find the programming in the upright pretty bad too, but not as bad. Not worth the asking price, or atleast the money I paid for it, but then again right now, no sax library is worth the asking price, not even QLB (atleast you can find that one on sale form time to time...399 at one point which I then consider it worth the price if your into getting more than saxes).

    I\'d like to point out that, while I\'m disappointed with the VR tenor and upright, I do like the overall character in the tone of the samples. In fact, its the only reason I keep considering more VR libraries. I just am so afraid of the programming. not to mention the sometimes misleading advertising (saying four velocity layers when 2 are actually different articulations)

    oh and by the way, I really dig the QLB baritone

  3. #3

    Re: Finally, the best sampled saxes EVER

    Do you have Quantum Leap Brass, and if so how would you compare the VR saxes to the QL saxes?


  4. #4

    Re: Finally, the best sampled saxes EVER

    Thanks much for your detailed reply on this. I don\'t mind doing a bit of reprogramming, and even sample editing, if the results are worth it. So, I might consider buying a VR sax or two. The tone does sound decent on the tenor demo. (Anyone who can comment on the alto?)

    I\'m finding more and more that good release triggers are a key to realistic emulations, and believe that sample developers could, in many, cases forget about recording staccato samples for some instruments. If you have a good release trigger, staccato can easily be emulated by ending the note quickly on the normal sustained samples. Given this, the developer could concentrate more on the attacks, and providing varied attacks.

    Incidentally, is there a way to make release triggers NOT get triggered if the note already has been sustained for more than a defined period? OR, alternatively, to have the release trigger attenuated somewhat after longer sustains?

    I know that you can assign the attenuation of the release trigger to a midi controller, but it would be nice to set attenuation parameters automatically via note length.

    Off topic wish regarding Logic: I wish there was an easy way to edit note-offs in the sequencer, say in the matrix editor. Combined with Gigasampler\'s release triggers, that\'d be a really powerful feature. Is there any other sequencer in which you CAN edit note-offs, ie quantize them to a groove grid, tweak their velocities, etc.?


  5. #5

    Re: Finally, the best sampled saxes EVER

    Arch, if you dotn mind doing some reprogramming and some sample editing, then by far, go with the VR stuff.......if you also dont mind overpaying for work that shoud already be done.

    Its pretty much the same with any library IMO, but truly overeagerated with these. Its not really like the work is all that much. In fact for me its really not that much. BUT.... I still question the reasoning for some programming methods in the two multisamples I have (the VR percussion is actually quite good).

    I haven\'t really discussed these details with Franz,..I probably should, so I\'d like to re emphisize that the tone is actually quite good with the tenor and bass VR libraries I have, just incase he thinks I think they suck...

    I just think the programming and sample editing is horrendous. [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

    Again many people may disagreee as well. Remember that.

    I seriously doubt that any Sa lib is worth the asking price tho. Even the few that I\'ve bought.

    Maybe the big fish one thats due out. Or even Sonic Implants. If not, then maybe it will be up to me. [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img] MWAAHHAHAHAHAHA

  6. #6

    Re: Finally, the best sampled saxes EVER

    programming philosophy:
    priority: achieve variety of samples. Vel layers used not for volume but to get different samples when played repetedly creating a quasi \"random\" sample selection.

    release samples: every(!!) VRSound instrument has release samples (except drums) thus ther is no need for reverb. The instrument can be used \"dry\" and still sound satisfactory (don\'t try this with most of our competitors stuff)

    KingI please name another library that offers this?

    This kind of realism demands understanding of the actual instrument represented. the samples will very much behave like the real thing: sax will need a little compression to taste (like the real thing) and s will acoustic bass.

    Our samples are programmed for keyboardists who like to jam. If you input your music by typing you will need to emulate vel variety.

    Sound quality:
    VRSound is the ONLY developer of binaural acoustically accurate samples. In my personal and professional opinion they are the best that current audio recording technology has to offer. The samples give the illusion of a player being in the room and also offer incredible ease of mixing and placement in the mix.

    New achievements:
    Game 2 of NBA playoff was the worlds first broadcast using VRSound binaural stereo.

    VRSound samples used in context with live instruments causes people to ask: who played sax?

    KingI is sofar the only customer complaining about any of this. Mostly the eamils read more like the first one on this thread. Or: how do I use WinRar?

  7. #7

    Re: Finally, the best sampled saxes EVER


    Realease triggers are great, but sometimes they can sound weird. Sometimes it sounds like its totally cut up into peices on an audio editor. Even in listening to the demo on your page you can hear this. I knew it going in tho, so I never really complained about it.

    Release triggers will never be a replacement for reverb. Anyone who thinks so is being ignorant of what actually happens with natural reverberation. Release triggers will never reverberate the actuall performance...say pitch bends etc. Having said that. Release triggers are a must because of the note off nuances they add, used in conjunction with a \"meshing/coagulating\" reverb is probably the best method overall.

    As for other libs offering this, there are a few showring up. Like the some of the Bardstown audio stuff. Voices of the Apocolypse. Sonic Implants. Gos updates. Nearly every piano Gigasample on the market. Post Audio Media,Scarbee, VintAudio, a whole slew of people I\'m guessing.

    Now dont get me wrong Franz. I like the tone of the samples. They take well to compression like you said, and the \"Air\" is there. Still I dont liek the fact that I asked you about loops and you said there were \"no loops\". This, I took, must have been a misunderstanding in that maybe you though tI meant phrase loops, but there are sustain loops int he samples, that IMO sound terrible. If I try holding a note for more than 1-2 seconds the loop kicks in and sounds terrible, because it is one cycle of vibrato. Maybe you were trying to save space for other samplers, I\'m not sure, but I\'m a bit disapointed with them.

    As for the programming. I understand that you like randomness. And honestly for a moment I \"got it\", then I realized that it started to sound like a bad player if I relied on the randomness. and then I was forced to use things like Pitch bends into notes and the like repeatedly on the same note....when I didnt want any.

    Using velocity as a way to split up different articulations to add randomness is creative, but it is clunky IMO. Consider trying to do 1/4note portato note type crecendos.....it cant be done ebcuase you run into legato notes that sound terribly out of place. Add to the fact that people really need to reprogram to get a more \"traditional\" programming method, and it can be frustrating for the asking price. I personally reprogrammed with some keyswitches on the mod wheel for the legato (up is legato up, dowsn is legato down, and center is straight tone) and the velocity mapped to the two \"straight\" tones

    Also There are samples that arent\' mapped in the gig I got.

    Also, for the upright It feels very strange to have keyboard splits ont eh Mod wheel, that only affect 3/4 octaves up above the \"standard\" playing samples. I\'m still trying ot get something that will work better for me.

    Now I\'ll say it again. The samples sound great in tone. So if you play short phrases and stuff that isn\'t too fast and use it in anything other than a light arrangement, the sax will sound great. BETTER!! than anything out there on the market

    you will be limited in choices tho. So it will only work with some pieces.

    I honestly love the tone, I cant say it enough, *I* just HATE the programming. In fact I would have much rather purchased an Audio CD of the raw sample data and done the programming myself. In fact I might actually consider the library worth paying the price I did then. This is however my opinion, and everyone should note that it is only that. The programming may actually be revolutionary to other people.

    I may be the only one complaining, but I\'m also one of the people saying \"buy it\". If you need saxes, these have the best tone so far, and tone is important, we all know that. Could there be better libraries in the future. I think yes, much.

    For me to hate the programming as much as I do and still say its one of the best sounding sax samples out there must be saying something for the tone.

  8. #8

    Re: Finally, the best sampled saxes EVER

    Thanks guys I am loving this.
    As KingI, Soundsmith and Alberto show how different people react to my work the common thread is still the sound quality is great. As GS develops, these samples will still sound great and future articulation files will offer better selection and performance controls especially release sample control is very limited. This makes VRSound samples a good investment for long term use.

    KingI, I was looking for sax, woodwind, strings, solo strings, ac bass, guitar and brass libs with release samples, of course pianos and other keyboard instruments have it.

  9. #9

    Re: Finally, the best sampled saxes EVER


    Step down off your high horse for a min. We\'ve been doing release samples for years now too.


  10. #10

    Re: Finally, the best sampled saxes EVER

    ok. Scarbee uses releases pretty creatively from what I hear

    Bardstown Acoustic guitars and Banjos.

    vintaudio for their guitars

    I\'m sure Dan Dean will do them in his upcomming brass.


    anyhow, its not the release triggers that are the decidign factor in the Tenor for me. In fact in both the tenor and the Bass they can be a bit problematic depending on the note and the note length. Again its my personal opinion.

    Like I said I like the tone, and you\'re right thats a good thing that everyone agrees, now give us more options in the programming and longer note lengths/loops. and more actual velocities [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

    BTW I\'ve got more ideas to improve the tenor for myself. that involve more actual sample editing. Taht should tighten it up for me, and slowly make it my go to Tenor sax. I however dont ever think it will be enough for me.

    The only thing I\'ll never be able to fix is those damn loops.

    Anyhow, I\'m not easily disapointed with libraries enough to want to return them or to never find anything good in them. I get alot of good use out of the Tenor I bought (not so much out of the upright for some reason). So dont want to return your libraries. However, from the \"out of the boxers\" I see on the board I jsut wanted to warn them of the different programming.

    My absolutely hating the programming, I guess, is a side opinion.

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