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Topic: Mahler Adagietto

  1. #1

    Mahler Adagietto

    I just posted a performance of the Mahler 5th symphony adagietto.
    Any feedback (good or bad) would be appreciated. I created a string sound by blending neigboring samples from Dan Dean Solo Strings. The gigs use breath controller for amplitude with layered stacatto samples controlled by velocity. I created string glissandos using two tracks with pitch bends and cross fades. In some places I used this method to try and create a better legato, rather than for a slide effect, although the technique I\'m using is currently rather cumbersome.

    The harp is Garritan\'s. I couldn\'t afford the Garritan strings, but I would love to get them at some point(if I can convince my wife!).

    I\'m not sure about the way I mixed the sounds down.. perhaps too much reverb and bass. I\'m finding that over some cheap speakers it sounds especially boomy and the harp is too wet. Also this was tricky because of the large dynamic range(which also made hiss a problem). Perhaps the loud bits are too much?


  2. #2

    Re: Mahler Adagietto

    Very interesting glissandos. I think you pinpointed all the little issues yourself. The \'quiet\' parts are exceptional; especially considering that this is only Dan Dean\'s strings.

    I got a chance to listen (again) to your Bach: wonderful. I look forward to some future exploits with GOS; you get a tremendous amount from the Dan Dean. (I still think he should get your Bach - and this - onto his site. It shows how \'general\' his fabulous strings are - in the right hands.)

  3. #3

    Re: Mahler Adagietto

    some of this is EXCELENT!!!!!! Actually all of it is quite good

    I cant say much more, this is quite fantastic for jsut Dan Dean IMO.

    Like Z6, I think you already know the problem points.

    Some of the slides are fake sounding and some work beautifully.

    I think if you get an ensemble library and layer it in underneath and use real slide samples and touch up some of the hard attacks, it could quite possibly be the best and most realistic sampled orchestra I\'ve ever heard.

    BTW the overall dynamic range does seem to be a bit much.

    The hiss is only slightly bothering. Someof it adds to the character of the overall sound somehow.

  4. #4

    Re: Mahler Adagietto

    Holy Cow!

    Besides being very convincing, it\'s also simply an aesthetically beautiful rendition. Dang.

    A couple of the slides are a little overdone, ever so slightly, for my taste.

    A pleasure to listen to.


  5. #5

    Re: Mahler Adagietto

    Fantastic job! Sure, there are the problems with legato, as you and others mentioned. And I agree, some of the glisses work and some don\'t. But WOW! the emotional intensity is at a level I don\'t think I\'ve heard before in one of these Giga-versions. And to me, that\'s way more important.

    Very enjoyable - I hope you\'ll do more like this!

  6. #6

    Re: Mahler Adagietto

    Awesome stuff! [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img] The dynamic range is wonderful and the emotion is there. The pitch slides don\'t work in some places and in other places they REALLY work. [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

    Great job.

  7. #7

    Re: Mahler Adagietto

    Originally posted by Duncan Brinsmead:
    I created string glissandos using two tracks with pitch bends and cross fades.
    <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Beautiful job, Duncan. The glisses add so much to this performance. Could you explain a bit more how you did them? I don\'t understand about the two tracks (both?) with PB and crossfades. By crossfade do you mean that the volume fades over the length of the gliss?

    Hey, you probably already caught it but the violins overshoot by a half-step at 4:12.

    Again, excellent work. Was the Bernstein/NY from the 60\'s your model?

    Bart Garratt

  8. #8

    Re: Mahler Adagietto

    Astounding! Bravo! More! I just closed my eyes and forgot everything for the time of this piece. How long did it take you to create this? Listening to it gives me hope. Hope for humanity and for sample orchestrators.

    Thank you for sharing!
    Be at peace.

  9. #9

    Re: Mahler Adagietto

    Thanks for the kind comments, guys. [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img]
    I knew when I started this that I was going to have to handle gissandos. One 2 octave gliss is even written into the music, and the character of this music really demands it. There are several phrases with huge slurred leaps in the melody where the continuity is lost without at least a tiny bit of portamento. It was really hard to get the right effect without it sounding overdone and artificial.

    The basic technique was to create and extra track for a given instrument and then cut and paste the destination note of the gliss into this track. The start of this note is moved a little earlier to allow for a cross dissolve. I would then paint a pitch bend into both tracks, along with a fade out and in in the breath control track. The speed of the bend and the exact amount of fade out were critical to getting a good effect and track editor in Cakewalk was not designed well for such sensitive editing. Also I had problems with pitch bend in Gigasampler. The first few pitch bend events seem to be ignored and I would need to insert several events to get an effect. Also the bend response is highly non-linear in gigasampler. This is OK for something like bending a guitar note, but made it hard to accurately bend the pitch the way I wanted to.

    I\'m contemplating creating a patch with release samples and layered attack samples that have bend in them. One would use a controller to specify the bend direction and this would control if the bend up or down samples are used. Another controller could control the length and amplitude of these bend samples. One could have both large and small bend up and down samples and it might be enought for simple legato smoothing. Large or slow glissandos would have to be handled by some other means.

    Its interesting, Bart, that you mention the Berstein/NY performance of this, as it is the version that I\'m probably most familiar with
    (though I haven\'t actually listened to it for bout 20 years). I thought I would just perform it the way I heard it, and have on purpose avoided listening to any other versions.

    But I really like Berstein\'s Mahler. His performance with NY of Mahler 2 is to me a stunning performance( I have one friend who laughed listening to it, finding it too over the top, though I think that\'s the way it should be played ). Much classical music is performed today with an almost clinical reverence for the composer. With a Berstein performance there is generally lots of rubato and drama(in the right places) and you sense someone is in charge of the orchestra. I don\'t know what his performance of the 5th with Vienna sounds like, but have it on order.


  10. #10
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Nova Scotia, Canada

    Re: Mahler Adagietto


    I feel you have set an expressive standard here, and as such, somebody should do another version with one the available, or upcoming string libraries (maybe I\'ll try with Garritan strings if I can somehow find some time, at least a few dozen bars). This is one of the very few virtual orchestration pieces from the classical literature that isn\'t irritating to listen to, you did a fantastic job.

    But why? I can only imagine the amount of time you spent on this, especially creating the custom string sections. What was your goal with this? I\'m not sure where you heading with it. Did you start this project before hearing about the new libraries coming up? It appears you enjoy technical midi based challenges with orchestration, but do you really feel midi functions such as pitch bend, etc. or wave blending, etc have a future in this area, (with midi I mean beyond basic triggering of articulation nuances, etc)?

    Regardless, the fact is that your Mahler has been very successfully rendered, albeit in a rather unorthodox fashion, and provides a fine example of the virtual orchestration of a major work. Well done indeed.


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